282 réponses à ce sujet

[Rockpopple]

So all the Hawke's look the same cuz... what, they're all human? That's kind of a gross generalization.

And I think the old way of a silent protagonist standing next to a voiced npc and rattling off question after question after question as the voiced npc just stands there expositing until the cows come home... I think those days are done. Even Gaider pointed this out - they're not going back to those days.

Modifié par Rockpopple, 25 avril 2011 - 03:31 .

[_Aine_]

At some point you have to move away from " it failed" or " it succeeded" or even " good show, chap!" into either acceptance or real discussion on what you would change if you could, how and why. In the end, this is just a sounding board.

So, if it succeeded - right on, what next? And why was it successful?
If it failed? Why? How is it fixed? We can sit and examine wounds until they fester but it won't heal a bloody thing that is already done.

Yep, they changed a lot some people loved and added some stuff some people hate ( and the opposite.) but what's done is done. I have found them fairly responsive to actual dialog on the subject that is neither full of hate or trying to bait them into arguments or admit defeat.

There is nothing wrong with trying new and experimental. Even if it "fails" which I won't paint with a wide brush here.... there is a lot of knowledge to be had with failure. That which is the least forgiving tends to teach us the fastest.

Modifié par shantisands, 25 avril 2011 - 03:40 .

[Maverick827]

"I'm not even going to tell you whether or not I liked the game to make it appear as if I'm impartial.

(pause)

But seriously, why did BioWare ruin everything good about the game?"

[_Aine_]

Maverick827 wrote...

"I'm not even going to tell you whether or not I liked the game to make it appear as if I'm impartial.

(pause)

But seriously, why did BioWare ruin everything good about the game?"

well, I personally have.  Ad naseum even.   I was trying to kindly say to some people who ONLY complain and whine to maybe try extra words in their sentences if they want to be heard.  That is all.   People are free to simply moan though.  I'll consider it a learning lesson in futility to even post what I think to be helpful and call it a draw.

Modifié par shantisands, 25 avril 2011 - 04:01 .

[Lord Gremlin]

Well, true, true. News for Bioware: a game's been released recently, named Portal 2. This game is more of Portal, just better. That's why it's called "Portal 2". "Dragon Age" is, although not bad, still worse than first game and much less - shorter, less content, less areas, less models, less dialogue... Less, less, less...
It's Dragon Age Lite, not Dragon Age 2. You, how to say, created a PSP Go. If you know what I'm talking about.

[simonc4175]

 The only problem with DA2 was people expectations of the game.

It was obvious from pre-release that the game was going to about Hawke's journey.

Variours PC magazines stated time and again that Bioware had chosen to add a dialog wheel,  make combat faster and that the game would take place with the city of Kirkwall.

The Origin's fanclub expected more of the same(which frankly would have been boring) but instead what Bioware did was give us a more action orientaited game where the PC acutally has a voice.

It really make me wonder if DA2 had came first would there be a 100 whine threads about Origin's.

Origin's has been and gone,  the game has changed and people can either acept it or live in the past. 

I never saw the point in spending hours of my day moaning on interest forums when there more positive things I could be doing.

There is nothing wrong with DA2 but there is something wrong with people who constantly berate others for liking it.

[SilentK]

shantisands wrote...

Maverick827 wrote...

"I'm not even going to tell you whether or not I liked the game to make it appear as if I'm impartial.

(pause)

But seriously, why did BioWare ruin everything good about the game?"

well, I personally have.  Ad naseum even.   I was trying to kindly say to some people who ONLY complain and whine to maybe try extra words in their sentences if they want to be heard.  That is all.   People are free to simply moan though.  I'll consider it a learning lesson in futility to even post what I think to be helpful and call it a draw.

Well yes   =)   it will give more if you can give more of a background. I can give it a try.

Pro: Voice, for me this was wonderful. I love my warden but tended to always sort of play the same person over and over again. My first Hawke was my usual sort of diplomatic char and then I tried a Hawke who actually took some of the more direct voice options. I have never ever ever done any other shepard than a full on paragon in ME, because I couldn't do evil things. Well, I had my Hawke trying on some direct rude sounding things and all of a sudden, I actually found my Hawke doing not always so good things. It seems that after hearing it I let it shape how my Hawke behaves sometimes. It was a whole new experience for me and I have liked it alot. Don't know why I haven't been able to do it before but now a whole lot of rivalmance for  =)   I just connect more to a voiced char

Con:  I starting to feel a bit walled up in Kirkwall. It is a pretty cool town but I wish that there could have been seasons, perhaps more of a winter-feeling during one of the Acts or something like that. I can see the point in making us wait to know what happens outside until DA3 and it will all be a surprise but I want, starting to feel a real need to see something more. One more hub that was a bit bigger. Soundermount and the broken coast are big areas but not really big hubs as Orzammar and Redcliff or Denerim. One more big hub and I would have been a lot happier. Starting to feel a bit cooped up and I still love the game.

I gave it a try.

[JabbaDaHutt30]

elearon1 wrote...

Okay, but the thing is, if you read any interviews, or *anything* about the game before it was released, they were not shy in informing people this was not going to be DA:Origins 2 ... in fact, they were very vocal about breaking people of that expectation. Yet, I still hear people complaining "what else would it be?" You can't complain the company didn't give you what you expected, after they told you they weren't going to.

As for replayability; aside from the Origins stories themselves, I never managed to replay DA:O - it always felt exactly the same whenever I tried. Meanwhile, I've played DA2 twice all the way through and have two other characters in the 3rd act and still going.

I'm not bashing Origins here ... I really enjoyed it the first time through, but it was SO linear that I simply could not bring myself to slog through it more than once. (and I tried, I did!) Sure, DA2 is also linear, but you can change your experience significantly by playing a different personality type - this never felt like the case in the first game. (it could be that most of the quests were so long in Origins that the very few alternative decisions you could make were lost amidst a mountain of repeated story ... the meat of most quests in 2 is shorter, so your different choices are more apparent)

Mike Laidlaw tried to convince fans time and time again how much Origins players will find themselves at home in DA 2.

Certainly they were also aware of breaking expectations, but I don't think there's a lot of doubt that they tried to market the game to those Origins fans who were pessimistic about the sequel they were making, or that they ( or should I say Laidlaw ? ) didn't shy away from highlighting key similarities that DA 2 will keep between the transition from Origins, at least once the negativity set in.

Aw, hell! What did I mean by "at least when the negativity set in"? It was there from the start, damn it...

Modifié par JabbaDaHutt30, 25 avril 2011 - 05:21 .

[In Exile]

Just as an aside, direct and rude are different options. The hammer is direct, the fist is rude. If you pick the fist instead of the hammer, you won't be direct but you will be confrontational. I never had a problem with directness once I realized that hammer red =! red fist.

[JabbaDaHutt30]

erynnar wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

I am uncertain as to what I would call the primary issue, but would have to sy that this is not it, Change will occur, or the game becomes stagnant.

It is the fiddling and changing that breaks things and not the leaving it alone. The fear mongering 'the end is nigh' approach of 'stagnation' is nothing more than a fallacy. Change should only occur after such stagnation, not in fear of it. The fans asked for changes after DAO, small things akin to improvement through baby steps and not wide sweeping changes.

This^.  I am so sick of being labled the "afraid of change-PC elitist."  I was expecting baby steps too. What I got was...

I agree, how many games like Origins did we get? The last major party-based RPG before Origins was NWN 2, if I remember right.

[zsom]

Saintthanksgiving wrote...
...
I would like to know what I should have expected when I bought a game with a "2" at the end of the title.  Why is this just accepted as an apparent oversight on the part of the consumer here?  I am not trying to start another thread for people who loved or hated the game to throw digital feces at each other.  I am not even going to say whether I liked the game or not because it is irrelevant to this topic.  What I would like, is some type of explanation as to why it was wrong of me to assume that when I pre ordered Dragon Age 2, it would be a sequel to Dragon Age 1.
...

It has been stated ad inifnitum that it is not Origins 2. It wasn't a secret that we will not be able to play any other race but humans, and that whatever class we play, the main plot will be the same. Do you really need it to be spelled out that this is NOT the same as DAO?

About the changes:
- junk inventory: this was messed up in DAO as well. Love letters, private notices, trade manifest, scrolls of banastor, blank scrolls all looked the same, yet two of them were needed later in sidequests, while the rest were really junk. However I agree that running around with two "moth eaten scarfs" isn't exactly better. Imho the entire "Let's look through random corpses and sell the junk at the market" rpg concept is broken, but the "hardcore" rpg fans are too attached to let it go. We should only carry around gold, crafting materials, potions and the best armor/weapon we have.
- "Was someone complainging that they had to travel too much?" Yes, a lot of people. Particularly about the deep roads and the fade.

The only "improvement" that really wasn't one, was the recycling of the dungeon areas. That was obviously left like this because of time constraints. It wouldn't have been that big of an issue, if the rest of Kirkwall hadn't been completely static. Sadly... the city didn't change much either.

Modifié par zsom, 25 avril 2011 - 05:22 .

[Dark83]

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...
The last major party-based RPG before Origins was NWN 2, if I remember right.

People need to pay more attention to Steam sales. Drakensang came out (internationally) 2 months after Storm of Zehir, and it was awesome.

Modifié par Dark83, 25 avril 2011 - 05:22 .

[erynnar]

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

erynnar wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

I am uncertain as to what I would call the primary issue, but would have to sy that this is not it, Change will occur, or the game becomes stagnant.

It is the fiddling and changing that breaks things and not the leaving it alone. The fear mongering 'the end is nigh' approach of 'stagnation' is nothing more than a fallacy. Change should only occur after such stagnation, not in fear of it. The fans asked for changes after DAO, small things akin to improvement through baby steps and not wide sweeping changes.

This^.  I am so sick of being labled the "afraid of change-PC elitist."  I was expecting baby steps too. What I got was...

I agree, how many games like Origins did we get? The last major party-based RPG before Origins was NWN 2, if I remember right.

I think that's right. And I too remember all the assurances that we DAO fans would still feel at home with DA2 and its changes. I have no problem with changes. In fact, I have put in the appropriate feedback threads what I liked. And I need to go add some (now that I am playing a mage).

[Cutlass Jack]

Dark83 wrote...

People need to pay more attention to Steam sales. Drakensang came out (internationally) 2 months after Storm of Zehir, and it was awesome.

And the second Drakensang (River of Time) came out almost the same time as DA2. Steam was exactly what drew my attention to the series.

[SkittlesKat96]

Well I actually didn't mind the fact they added voice acting...the complaints about that are from the small vocal group of hardcore Rpg fans, honestly they have a fairly small effect on Dragon Age 2's sales. Not saying they don't matter but they are a bit unreasonable.

I think the main killer of DA 2 was the recycled environments, the fact Kirkwall is really dull and non-changing and just the overall rushedness of the game and non-linking storyline.

Honestly it's not necessarily bad that they reduced the Rpg elements of the game, Mass Effect 2 did that and it was arguably better or at least equal to it's predecessor, just Bioware messed up DA 2 in other ways.

I still think Bioware is a good company and I can't wait for Dragon Age III and I hope they take their fans concerns into account.

EDIT: Non-voiced protagonists have their perks (in fact I think my Warden is very unique and I could really shape him the way I wanted, but I still like Hawke's character too and the way my Hawke is even if he's a little more limited)

The hardcore/oldschool/vocal Rpg fans can complain but they aren't going to change it so they may as well enjoy Bioware's next games for what they are and realize they aren't going to stick with non-voiced protagonists. Just appreciate the perks of having a voice protagonist.

I myself was one of the really vocal DAO fans who complained and did everything I could to say bad things about DA 2 but I think I was being a bit silly then and I think I was complaining about the wrong things (plus I was banned lol...I was being rude and petty)

Modifié par SkittlesKat96, 25 avril 2011 - 05:37 .

[erynnar]

zsom wrote...

Saintthanksgiving wrote...
...
I would like to know what I should have expected when I bought a game with a "2" at the end of the title.  Why is this just accepted as an apparent oversight on the part of the consumer here?  I am not trying to start another thread for people who loved or hated the game to throw digital feces at each other.  I am not even going to say whether I liked the game or not because it is irrelevant to this topic.  What I would like, is some type of explanation as to why it was wrong of me to assume that when I pre ordered Dragon Age 2, it would be a sequel to Dragon Age 1.
...

It has been stated ad inifnitum that it is not Origins 2. It wasn't a secret that we will not be able to play any other race but humans, and that whatever class we play, the main plot will be the same. Do you really need it to be spelled out that this is NOT the same as DAO?

About the changes:
- junk inventory: this was messed up in DAO as well. Love letters, private notices, trade manifest, scrolls of banastor, blank scrolls all looked the same, yet two of them were needed later in sidequests, while the rest were really junk. However I agree that running around with two "moth eaten scarfs" isn't exactly better. Imho the entire "Let's look through random corpses and sell the junk at the market" rpg concept is broken, but the "hardcore" rpg fans are too attached to let it go. We should only carry around gold, crafting materials, potions and the best armor/weapon we have.
- "Was someone complainging that they had to travel too much?" Yes, a lot of people. Particularly about the deep roads and the fade.

The only "improvement" that really wasn't one, was the recycling of the dungeon areas. That was obviously left like this because of time constraints. It wouldn't have been that big of an issue, if the rest of Kirkwall hadn't been completely static. Sadly... the city didn't change much either.

No, the only improvement that wasn't one to you, you mean. That is all your opinion. 

And I knew it would have changes, but not the reboot. Sorry, but I don't read everything to avoid spoilers. I had faith in BioWare.  So talking down to me, and other who expected change but not a reboot does you no credit. 

And as to there were going to be changes and it wasn't goint to be DAO2, well they should **** or get off the pot. They kept saying one thing, then telling us we would still have enough DAO in it. They sold it as a sequel, then you tell me oh , but not a direct sequel.  Yeah, there is a reason the human back side has a spit, it's for sitting on fences.

[Rockpopple]

It's pretty much as direct a sequel you can get without having the Warden be the MC again.

I'm actually curious how many people thought (not early on, but later, closer to DA II's release) that Dragon Age II would star their Warden again...

[drvaughn1999]

simonc4175 wrote...

 The only problem with DA2 was people expectations of the game.

It was obvious from pre-release that the game was going to about Hawke's journey.

Variours PC magazines stated time and again that Bioware had chosen to add a dialog wheel,  make combat faster and that the game would take place with the city of Kirkwall.

The Origin's fanclub expected more of the same(which frankly would have been boring) but instead what Bioware did was give us a more action orientaited game where the PC acutally has a voice.

It really make me wonder if DA2 had came first would there be a 100 whine threads about Origin's.

Origin's has been and gone,  the game has changed and people can either acept it or live in the past. 

I never saw the point in spending hours of my day moaning on interest forums when there more positive things I could be doing.

There is nothing wrong with DA2 but there is something wrong with people who constantly berate others for liking it.

And yet here you are:blush:

[zsom]

erynnar wrote...
No, the only improvement that wasn't one to you, you mean. That is all your opinion. 

Wrong.. it's a fact. I guess you misunderstood me. I'm not saying that every change was a working improvement, I'm saying that none of the changes were ad hoc meddling. They were all trying to address an issue present in Origins. (Fixing something that was broken..) Why else do you think they changed things? To break it? To destroy a franchise that could have made millions?

erynnar wrote...
And I knew it would have changes, but not the reboot. Sorry, but I don't read everything to avoid spoilers. I had faith in BioWare.  So talking down to me, and other who expected change but not a reboot does you no credit. 

And as to there were going to be changes and it wasn't goint to be DAO2, well they should **** or get off the pot. They kept saying one thing, then telling us we would still have enough DAO in it. They sold it as a sequel, then you tell me oh , but not a direct sequel.  Yeah, there is a reason the human back side has a spit, it's for sitting on fences.

Every major change that wasn't spoiling the story was announced. If you didn't use the information freely available, then that's your mistake, not theirs.
- lack of origins stories was known
- VO was announced
- the plot taking place only in Kirkwall was announced
- you could see the enemies spawning in the demo and in the screencasts
- OTT animations and fighting - again demo and screencasts
- new graphics, elves etc. announced
- every returning companion (that single one) announced
The only thing that wasn't disclosed is the open ending, which would have been the mother of all spoilers....
Oh and they said that consoles would have auto-attack, which they didn't. This is kind of an ungly bug, but you can't honestly think that they didn't want to include it in the official release.

Modifié par zsom, 25 avril 2011 - 06:49 .

[Turran]

What I don't think was fair was to use the actual name 'Dragon Age', it was barely linked with the other game and was very much changed, where change was not needed? I felt like they slapped the 'Dragon Age' part onto it so it would sell for more and entise those back from the original.
(I also found it really really rediculous how the choice in Origins had NO effect (Or maybe the smallest of small effects) on what happens in 'DA'2)

[erynnar]

Rockpopple wrote...

It's pretty much as direct a sequel you can get without having the Warden be the MC again.

I'm actually curious how many people thought (not early on, but later, closer to DA II's release) that Dragon Age II would star their Warden again...

Oh I knew it wouldn't star the Warde again, and I was cool with that. I think that was the only spoiler I allowed myself.  I like the story.  I don't like the loss of RPG for action/hack and slash anime. I like my ratio more like DAO and than DA2's.

And see this is what contributes to my feelings of biopolar, or dissciociative personality disorder. Fellow fans (we are all fans whether we agree or no ) tell me it wasn't meant to be a true sequel, they said there would be changes, but it is a sequel...but I a supposed to enjoy the game without comparing it to the first game.  GAH! It is so damn confusing.

I will say I am enjoying the heck out of my mage. She lays waste to enemies and makes me feel like a goddess of killing. ROFL!

[SilentK]

erynnar wrote...

Oh I knew it wouldn't star the Warde again, and I was cool with that. I think that was the only spoiler I allowed myself.  I like the story.  I don't like the loss of RPG for action/hack and slash anime. I like my ratio more like DAO and than DA2's.

And see this is what contributes to my feelings of biopolar, or dissciociative personality disorder. Fellow fans (we are all fans whether we agree or no ) tell me it wasn't meant to be a true sequel, they said there would be changes, but it is a sequel...but I a supposed to enjoy the game without comparing it to the first game.  GAH! It is so damn confusing.

I will say I am enjoying the heck out of my mage. She lays waste to enemies and makes me feel like a goddess of killing. ROFL!

Yay for happy feelings, I love my mage and she was ROCKING!        <3      I had sort of the same feelings when I stared with the ME-games. Discovered them so late, only after playing several wardens in DA:O so both of them were already out. Played both of them blind and made a ton of stupid mistakes in the games. They where a bit different from eachother so it took me some time to get used to it. Now I play ME2 when I feel like playing that one and ME when I feel like that one. Think it will be the same way for me with DA:O and DA2.

I've done a couple of Hawkes now so I'll probably fire up a new warden soon. Haven't got a a PT where Alistair is king and my F!Warden romances Leliana so that might be nice. Just one more Hawke first, haven't romanced Fenris yet        so yes, I would call myself a fan but that doesn't mean I automaticly love everything they do, but I am very much looking forward to new dlc, ME3 and DA3. Hope next DA2 dlc will have a good q-hub  

[Night Prowler76]

I dont think the average comsumer surfs forums about games etc, so I can see how someone would be shocked that a game that would appear to be a sequeal is totally re-vamped in such a short period of time, instead of say implementing smaller subtle changes over the course or the series.

I was on the forums before DA2 came out, and by the posts from BioWare and the Faq's, I was expecting the game to be shorter with less of pretty much everything, but most people dont go on these forums, so I dont blame them for being mad, It would be like Call of Duty turning into a Battlefield game in the course of a year, it would enrage the fans.

It was a mistake to put the "2" on this game, in general it hurt the DA franchise by just being sub-par.