282 réponses à ce sujet

[Dragoonlordz]

Haexpane wrote...

Indeed, Mass Effect 1 is the better game in all aspects except graphics.

But everyone thinks Mass Effect 2 is better because it had better shiny, zoomed in herp derp camera and more underwear secks.

Not everyone... I think ME1 is better than ME2. I'm glad I don't fit into the sheep factor of everyone likes something (that being ME2) because ME1 was more RPG'esque imho and the devs have agreed to put more RPG elements back into ME3 after they removed alot in ME2.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 26 avril 2011 - 07:54 .

[Gotholhorakh]

Ariella wrote...
Thing is, how much of that slipshod is quintifiable and how much is opinion?

Seriously? I don't think I need to list the obvious gaping holes in the game because they've been covered ad nauseam all over this forum, stuff like re-used caves, all of the houses being the same place, dead NPCs, spam items/items you can't use, massive overcrowding that amounts to a ghost town with a paltry few NPCs standing in a semicircle in one place if the wind is just right, the same exploding animations being used for every death, spiders that drop on a web from the sky etc. etc.

DA2's half-developedness isn't imaginary, it has lots of things you can point at and say "that is slipshod" which are hard to refute.

DA:O is one of the fullest and well-rounded games to have been released in its decade, whatever minor cosmetic issues it might arguably have had, resulting in many people playing it for hundreds of hours very happily, and when I see people trying to strike a note of equivalence between its problems and DA2s, I have to say I'm dumbfounded.

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 26 avril 2011 - 08:23 .

[Haexpane]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Haexpane wrote...

Indeed, Mass Effect 1 is the better game in all aspects except graphics.

But everyone thinks Mass Effect 2 is better because it had better shiny, zoomed in herp derp camera and more underwear secks.

Not everyone... I think ME1 is better than ME2. I'm glad I don't fit into the sheep factor of everyone likes something (that being ME2) because ME1 was more RPG'esque imho and the devs have agreed to put more RPG elements back into ME3 after they removed alot in ME2.

Well did Bioware really commit to putting more RPG gameplay back into ME2 or did they leave it as "RPG elements"?

Because that sounds a lot like "More companions to underwear secks" instead of "stats affect gameplay again"

[Rockpopple]

Haexpane wrote...

Reinveil wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...

W-wait, I thought Mass Effect 1 had more sex/nudity than Mass Effect 2... o_O

It did.  Naked blue ass says hi!

Maybe it had more PG-13 skin, but ME2 was more sexually charged.  The entire story of ME2 is "don't forget to bone the hawties before you fight the big bad!" 

Did... did I play a tamer version of ME2 than you? Cuz I'd like your sexy version. In my version I had the option not to have Shepard bone anyone...and I took it. 

Come on, I think a reasonable conversation can be had without resorting to hyperbole. :happy:

[Reinveil]

Rockpopple wrote...

Haexpane wrote...

Reinveil wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...

W-wait, I thought Mass Effect 1 had more sex/nudity than Mass Effect 2... o_O

It did.  Naked blue ass says hi!

Maybe it had more PG-13 skin, but ME2 was more sexually charged.  The entire story of ME2 is "don't forget to bone the hawties before you fight the big bad!" 

Did... did I play a tamer version of ME2 than you? Cuz I'd like your sexy version. In my version I had the option not to have Shepard bone anyone...and I took it. 

Come on, I think a reasonable conversation can be had without resorting to hyperbole. :happy:

Really, I didn't see any copies of Intergalactic Date Sim Effect 2 when I picked up my copy.

"Don't forget to bone the hawties before you fight the big bad" is an annoying aspect of all recent Bioware games I wish they'd give a rest, though.

[Ariella]

Gotholhorakh wrote...

Ariella wrote...
Thing is, how much of that slipshod is quintifiable and how much is opinion?

Seriously? I don't think I need to list the obvious gaping holes in the game because they've been covered ad nauseam all over this forum, stuff like re-used caves, all of the houses being the same place, dead NPCs, spam items/items you can't use, massive overcrowding that amounts to a ghost town with a paltry few NPCs standing in a semicircle in one place if the wind is just right, the same exploding animations being used for every death, spiders that drop on a web from the sky etc. etc.

DA2's half-developedness isn't imaginary, it has lots of things you can point at and say "that is slipshod" which are hard to refute.

DA:O is one of the fullest and well-rounded games to have been released in its decade, whatever minor cosmetic issues it might arguably have had, resulting in many people playing it for hundreds of hours very happily, and when I see people trying to strike a note of equivalence between its problems and DA2s, I have to say I'm dumbfounded.

Minor cosmetic issues? Being locked in a room unable to get out isn't minor cosmetic issues, and it's in the last part of DAo before the Landsmeet.

The spiders drop the same way they do from DAO in the Deep Roads. The gang member jump down from roof tops, The animations are there to prove it. The exploding animations only happens on certain critical strikes, not every strike.

The only legitimate gripe is the recycled maps, which has been pretty much agreed upon, but the rest does come up as subjective.

[CalJones]

You've been able to bone the hawties since BGII. Only back then, they were tiny little pixel people and the sex scenes weren't shown.

Personally I like the romances, not for the sex but for the character development and drama. A romance with Anders (in DA2) has the potential to be incredibly romantic and/or tragic, given what happens during the game.

It isn't quite that dramatic in ME (either game) but wanting to spend some quality time with your lover before hurling yourself into the unknown is, well, natural and adds a little to the sense of impending doom and whatnot.

(For the record, I preferred ME1 because it was just, somehow, more epic. But ME2 is certainly easier to get to grips with and given I have 10 Shepards to import into ME3, I can't say I didn't enjoy it very much).

[Dagiz]

Reinveil wrote...

"Don't forget to bone the hawties before you fight the big bad" is an annoying aspect of all recent Bioware games I wish they'd give a rest, though.

I  don't think they can.  Not when CDProjeckt gives you a card for having "hawt sexxzors" in the witcher and I am sure there will be a similar apporach in TW2.  When you take games like that, add in some Duke Nukem' and a mix of GTA well...you're going to get more and more of that I'm afraid.  

Don't like it either...if you want to have romance than have romance.  watching a blue pixleated butt or women in grandma's undergarments having sex with my character is not something I personally need in a game.  I do believe though that my opinion is in the minority.  There is always the option to not do that of course.  But there were aspects of the story that I  feel you missed in DA2 if you didn't complete a romance and sex option.

[Reinveil]

Ariella wrote...

Gotholhorakh wrote...

Ariella wrote...
Thing is, how much of that slipshod is quintifiable and how much is opinion?

Seriously? I don't think I need to list the obvious gaping holes in the game because they've been covered ad nauseam all over this forum, stuff like re-used caves, all of the houses being the same place, dead NPCs, spam items/items you can't use, massive overcrowding that amounts to a ghost town with a paltry few NPCs standing in a semicircle in one place if the wind is just right, the same exploding animations being used for every death, spiders that drop on a web from the sky etc. etc.

DA2's half-developedness isn't imaginary, it has lots of things you can point at and say "that is slipshod" which are hard to refute.

DA:O is one of the fullest and well-rounded games to have been released in its decade, whatever minor cosmetic issues it might arguably have had, resulting in many people playing it for hundreds of hours very happily, and when I see people trying to strike a note of equivalence between its problems and DA2s, I have to say I'm dumbfounded.

Minor cosmetic issues? Being locked in a room unable to get out isn't minor cosmetic issues, and it's in the last part of DAo before the Landsmeet.

The spiders drop the same way they do from DAO in the Deep Roads. The gang member jump down from roof tops, The animations are there to prove it. The exploding animations only happens on certain critical strikes, not every strike.

The only legitimate gripe is the recycled maps, which has been pretty much agreed upon, but the rest does come up as subjective.

While it's true some of the enemies have proper animations when they join the fray, some do just literally materialize from thin air.  And I don't really think it's even this that bothers most critics, it's that those waves exist at all (often in cramped quarters, rendering any sort of "tactics" moot).  And just speaking from personal experience, once my rogue hit a certain level, every single kill resulted in the same ridiculous cloud of chili.

[Reinveil]

Dagiz wrote...

Reinveil wrote...

"Don't forget to bone the hawties before you fight the big bad" is an annoying aspect of all recent Bioware games I wish they'd give a rest, though.

I  don't think they can.  Not when CDProjeckt gives you a card for having "hawt sexxzors" in the witcher and I am sure there will be a similar apporach in TW2.  When you take games like that, add in some Duke Nukem' and a mix of GTA well...you're going to get more and more of that I'm afraid.  

Don't like it either...if you want to have romance than have romance.  watching a blue pixleated butt or women in grandma's undergarments having sex with my character is not something I personally need in a game.  I do believe though that my opinion is in the minority.  There is always the option to not do that of course.  But there were aspects of the story that I  feel you missed in DA2 if you didn't complete a romance and sex option.

Unfortunately, I believe you're probably right.  And as you point out, because they're tying plot points and achievements into the love interests, you're missing out on part of the game if you don't partake.  I have plenty of tangible romance in real life with the gf, the digital variety is just kind of...gross (my opinion, folks, put down the pitchforks).  Especially Bioware's ridiculous dry-humping to a swell of overdramatic music variant of it.  And that "romantic" dialogue...ugh.  So trite.

At the very least, you're not alone there in the minority. 

[Gotholhorakh]

Ariella wrote...

Gotholhorakh wrote...

Ariella wrote...
Thing is, how much of that slipshod is quintifiable and how much is opinion?

Seriously? I don't think I need to list the obvious gaping holes in the game because they've been covered ad nauseam all over this forum, stuff like re-used caves, all of the houses being the same place, dead NPCs, spam items/items you can't use, massive overcrowding that amounts to a ghost town with a paltry few NPCs standing in a semicircle in one place if the wind is just right, the same exploding animations being used for every death, spiders that drop on a web from the sky etc. etc.

DA2's half-developedness isn't imaginary, it has lots of things you can point at and say "that is slipshod" which are hard to refute.

DA:O is one of the fullest and well-rounded games to have been released in its decade, whatever minor cosmetic issues it might arguably have had, resulting in many people playing it for hundreds of hours very happily, and when I see people trying to strike a note of equivalence between its problems and DA2s, I have to say I'm dumbfounded.

Minor cosmetic issues? Being locked in a room unable to get out isn't minor cosmetic issues, and it's in the last part of DAo before the Landsmeet.

One thing, happens in one place in the game, never experienced it, fixed with a reload vs. the pervasive and overbearing experience of constantly arriving back at one of the same few locations in the game for every quest.

The spiders drop the same way they do from DAO in the Deep Roads.

Yes, but you'll notice there isn't a SKY in the Deep Roads. Read the sentence again

The gang member jump down from roof tops, The animations are there to prove it. The exploding animations only happens on certain critical strikes, not every strike.

Lucky I didn't say "EVERY STRIKE" at all then.

The only legitimate gripe is the recycled maps, which has been pretty much agreed upon.

No, the only legitimate gripe after you change what I said and removed the parts about unusable items etc. Everything I just said still stands

[Haexpane]

CalJones wrote...

You've been able to bone the hawties since BGII. Only back then, they were tiny little pixel people and the sex scenes weren't shown.

 --------------------------

(For the record, I preferred ME1 because it was just, somehow, more epic. 

Yes, and yes.  Of course ME1 was more epic, everything about ME1 was a better RPG, ME2 was just better graphically and "viscerally".

The point about Boning hawties, is that seems like what ME2 became ABOUT, the camera angles, the outfits, the writing, it was all about snarky nerd ironic witty comments and hawtie crazy chicks who needed boning.  Basically the same plot as a reality TV show, Brah dawg it up, bicker, then bone, then compete in some lackluster contest.

ME1, the relationship stuff was there, but it wasn't as IN YOUR FACE< CHECK OUT MY BUTT! as ME2 was.  Or as BW puts it "visceral"

I like Hawties as much as anyone else, but there is a fine line between class and CHEESE

[Haexpane]

Dagiz wrote...

 
  .  But there were aspects of the story that I  feel you missed in DA2 if you didn't complete a romance and sex option.

I felt the same way with ME2, DAO. I romanced some characters because i felt like I was missing out, even tho I had ZERO desire to bone Alistair, I laid down, feet in the air for him.  I needed PLOTZ.

The morrigan bait and switch, that left me bitter.

The key is what you guys are getting at tho, it's become more and more of a focus of the Bioware games, as gameplay itself takes a back seat to Puppets Secks

Modifié par Haexpane, 26 avril 2011 - 11:36 .

[Sanarion]

Personally, what annoyed me the most about the game was
unrealized potential. DAO was an amazing starter game, pulling back the curtain
to a world both familiar, but also new. It had the feeling, with it's broad,
epic (which I use in the sense of both length, and scope) story, and with it's
more classic-hero main character, of a legend in making, in-universe.

 

Then came Dragon Age 2.

 

What a hate the most about Dragon Age 2 is the unrealized
potential. It could have been so very, very good. A more personal, more in depth
story would have honestly been wonderful. I liked the "Folk Hero" and
personal journey very much, and the idea of focusing on one city, although a
little strange, wasn't off-putting.

 

What went wrong?

 

In my opinion, time. Time. Time. It could have been
wonderful, but for the sake of money, they rushed it, and ended up making a
deeply flawed product.

 

For a game to tell a personal story, for it have impact for
what they seemed like they were aiming for, it needs to inspire emotion. The
primary emotion I felt playing the game was frustration. In writing classes,
the one thing beat into us, over and over again is the mantra "show, don't
tell." You want to scrap the Origins for a voiced protagonist that feels
more like a character than a vessel for a player? Fine. However, that should
give you the chance to go in depth into the character, and truly get a chance
to make them a character in their own right.

 

What I wanted was to see what Hawke's life was like before
the Blight. When we start the game, after the False-action prologue, which I'll
admit was a fun way to grab the gamer, we should have been able to play through
some of Hawke's life. Just because the Hero losing their home is a well
established cliche doesn't mean it's lost meaning. We get glimpses of how
Hawke's family react, and even, to an extent, Hawke's response to losing the
Home, but we don't get anything other than a few flickers of conversation with
Avaline about it.

 

To me, this was the first sin. Would it have been too much
to see Hawke's life before the Blight? We could have had an intro in Lothering,
maybe play a few scenes from his childhood. 
Had I been a writer, I would have written a few scenes, maybe of Hawke
interacting with his father. Don’t just tell us. Show us him learning the
sword, or magic. Show his interaction with his brother and sister, before it
all fell apart, and what his mother was like before they got driven out from
their home. When we meet Leandra, she’s already broken up, having lost both her
husband and her home. This was a horribly wasted opportunity. I frankly didn’t
really care about her. She was just another face. You want us to care? Show her
happy, with her children before the blight, then show her lose everything, her
home, one of her children. Make it hurt. 


Some scenes of MageHawke hiding from the Templars, maybe a
talk with his/her father, lessons on how to avoid them would have been good as
well. It would have made the conflict of the game seem a lot more personal. You
could have a scene of NotmageHawke with their father as well, maybe having him
ask them, tell them to look after Betheny, protect her from the Templars. That
would have brought it to a personal level, which, when you’re making a game
that is supposed to be human and personal, is the whole point.

That’s just a start. There was so much wasted potential. You
don’t feel the desperation Hawke should have felt, surviving on the streets, on
the edge of poverty, one step ahead of the Templars. If you’re going to focus a
game around a single city, like Kirkwall, the city itself needs to be a
character. It should change with time, having people going about their lives,
maybe even have holidays, events. It shouldn’t just be a series of disconnected
combat areas.  We should feel Hawke’s
pain, or even lack thereof, as his family and friends are stripped away, even
as he becomes more and more powerful.

On to act two. This may be asking for too much, but I have
high expectations for Bioware. They’re Bioware. They’re the kings of the CRPG.
You’re rich, you’re famous. Kirkwall should start to feel like a home. Let us get
attached to the city. Maybe let us meet Hawke’s neighbors, kick back with some
drinks with your companions with at the mansion. Instead, they give us a
cutscene. They could have had us talking with Leandra, showing her pride and
happiness at having the estate back. They did this to an extent, but they could
have done so much more.

 Show. Don’t tell.
Show.

This would have made the Quinari invasion more gripping,
more of a threat. Now, once again, Hawke’s on the verge of losing his home for
the second time.

I’m not going to even start on the final act. I honestly can’t
say anything would help, other than a complete re-write. Bioware has always
been about choice. We didn’t get choice. We got rail-roading. No. Even worse.
We got the illusion of choice. Either way, it didn’t matter. You could have
flipped a coin, for all the good it would do. Templar or Mage, either way, it
ends the exact same. The same people die. Hell, both antagonists end up going
insane, the oldest one in the book. There is precisely one major character you
can decide the fate of. Don’t give us that. You can do better than this,
Bioware. We know you can.

It’s also unclear what you were trying for. Was it a story
about choice, or about the lack thereof? Personally, I think if you didn’t want
us to have choices, I wouldn’t have complained, had it been done *right*. A
story about a Hawke who, despite his wealth, combat skill, and influence, is
little more than pawn being forced around by forces greater than himself would
have worked fine. However, in this case, the pressure was a Meta-gamy, external
pressure. It was immersion-breaking pressure, when it could have deepened immersion.

I’ll give Bioware this. The dialogue was witty, and in my
opinion, all of the characters were essentially well written, with only a few
glaring exceptions. (Looking at you, Orsino.) The Idol was a cop-out, a glaring
boil in the nose of a truly thought-provoking conflict. However…you’re Bioware.
You don’t get credit for that anymore.

It all boils down to time. It was an amazing concept that
failed do to lack of time. DAO gave us a brilliant window into a new world,
with a mythic plot, and Dragon Age II could have been surpassed it, giving us
an intense, personal story. But it didn’t. There wasn’t enough time.

[Haexpane]

Rockpopple wrote...

Haexpane wrote...

Reinveil wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...

W-wait, I thought Mass Effect 1 had more sex/nudity than Mass Effect 2... o_O

It did.  Naked blue ass says hi!

Maybe it had more PG-13 skin, but ME2 was more sexually charged.  The entire story of ME2 is "don't forget to bone the hawties before you fight the big bad!" 

Did... did I play a tamer version of ME2 than you? Cuz I'd like your sexy version. In my version I had the option not to have Shepard bone anyone...and I took it. 

Come on, I think a reasonable conversation can be had without resorting to hyperbole. :happy:

You didn't see it, that doesn't mean it wasnt there

[Elhanan]

Gotholhorakh wrote...

Seriously? I don't think I need to list the obvious gaping holes in the game because they've been covered ad nauseam all over this forum, stuff like re-used caves, all of the houses being the same place, dead NPCs, spam items/items you can't use, massive overcrowding that amounts to a ghost town with a paltry few NPCs standing in a semicircle in one place if the wind is just right, the same exploding animations being used for every death, spiders that drop on a web from the sky etc. etc.

Re-usable caves in a place that is reused for a decade. As for possible unatural develpment of said formations, I always took geology for granite.

Re-used mansions - same archetect; fantasy suburbia.

Dead NPC's puzzles me, but maybe they were not fully dead. Perhaps Wynne gets around more than me give her credit.

Items we cannot use being sold for gold which we can use; seems fair. Also seems familiar; not unique.

Massive overcrowding causes folks to fall from open windows into deadly fracus below! Film at 11....

CSI determines that being hit hard with any large weapon after being frozen may result in excessive granulation. Personally, I turn off the extra Gore, but that is me.

Spiders that are above tend to fall downward, be it wall, ceiling, or the same open windows mentioned aforehand. Then there is stealth....

While most of this is in jest, it comes from a place that is already saturated with Major means Minor irritation. Nothing here is a game stopper, AFAIK.

[DA2's half-developedness isn't imaginary, it has lots of things you can point at and say "that is slipshod" which are hard to refute.

Tis speculative opinion, and I gave it a shot.

DA:O is one of the fullest and well-rounded games to have been released in its decade, whatever minor cosmetic issues it might arguably have had, resulting in many people playing it for hundreds of hours very happily,

Agreed; played it for a solid year.

... and when I see people trying to strike a note of equivalence between its problems and DA2s, I have to say I'm dumbfounded.

And here I tend to think you are half-right.

Everyone is entitled to an informed opinion; even those that disagree with yours. I liked the game, though not as much as DAO; more than DAA.

Modifié par Elhanan, 26 avril 2011 - 11:38 .

[Rockpopple]

@ Haex - So you're problem with Mass Effect 2 was with Miranda. She wasn't the focus of the whole game, though. Heck, you could choose to not interact with her at all as soon as you have another teammember that can fill in her place. To say that Mass Effect 2 revolved around sex because of Miranda's booty is a little ridiculous. It's still hyperbole, so I'm sticking with my original comment. 

It is a fantastic booty, though. Thanks for the pics! 

@ Sanarion - Well said. I don't mind the "in medeas res" of Dragon Age 2's intro, but everything else you said? Totally agree.

Modifié par Rockpopple, 26 avril 2011 - 11:39 .

[Ariella]

[quote]Gotholhorakh wrote...

[quote]Ariella wrote...

[quote]Gotholhorakh wrote...

[quote]Ariella wrote...
Thing is, how much of that slipshod is quintifiable and how much is opinion?
[/quote]

Seriously? I don't think I need to list the obvious gaping holes in the game because they've been covered ad nauseam all over this forum, stuff like re-used caves, all of the houses being the same place, dead NPCs, spam items/items you can't use, massive overcrowding that amounts to a ghost town with a paltry few NPCs standing in a semicircle in one place if the wind is just right, the same exploding animations being used for every death, spiders that drop on a web from the sky etc. etc.

DA2's half-developedness isn't imaginary, it has lots of things you can point at and say "that is slipshod" which are hard to refute.

DA:O is one of the fullest and well-rounded games to have been released in its decade, whatever minor cosmetic issues it might arguably have had, resulting in many people playing it for hundreds of hours very happily, and when I see people trying to strike a note of equivalence between its problems and DA2s, I have to say I'm dumbfounded.

[/quote]

Minor cosmetic issues? Being locked in a room unable to get out isn't minor cosmetic issues, and it's in the last part of DAo before the Landsmeet.
[/quote]

One thing, happens in one place in the game, never experienced it, fixed with a reload vs. the pervasive and overbearing experience of constantly arriving back at one of the same few locations in the game for every quest.

[quote]
The spiders drop the same way they do from DAO in the Deep Roads. [/quote]

Yes, but you'll notice there isn't a SKY in the Deep Roads. Read the sentence again
[/quote]

I read the sentance but to quote you. Never experienced it. All my spiders were on the ground outside. inside is when they dropped. Cosmentic issue and a lot less annoying that being stuck and having to reload, and thus not being able to fulfill the quest.

[quote]
[quote]

[quote]
The gang member jump down from roof tops, The animations are there to prove it. The exploding animations only happens on certain critical strikes, not every strike.
[/quote]

Lucky I didn't say "EVERY STRIKE" at all then.
[/quote]

Semantics. Critical hits exploded bodies, something that goes all the way back to BG. If you didn't like it, that is your right, but by no means is it slip shod.

[quote]


[quote]
The only legitimate gripe is the recycled maps, which has been pretty much agreed upon.
[/quote]

No, the only legitimate gripe after you change what I said and removed the parts about unusable items etc. Everything I just said still stands

[/quote]

I didn't change what you said, and as for the junk items, it was the same as the Misc items in DAO except you didn't have components and gifts filling that part of the inventory. The carpets, vases, parchment etc were all the same thing under a different name. So who's playing word games now?

[Dagiz]

Haexpane wrote...


You didn't see it, that doesn't mean it wasnt there

It looks better on TV.

[Ariella]

Reinveil wrote...

Ariella wrote...

Gotholhorakh wrote...

Ariella wrote...
Thing is, how much of that slipshod is quintifiable and how much is opinion?

Seriously? I don't think I need to list the obvious gaping holes in the game because they've been covered ad nauseam all over this forum, stuff like re-used caves, all of the houses being the same place, dead NPCs, spam items/items you can't use, massive overcrowding that amounts to a ghost town with a paltry few NPCs standing in a semicircle in one place if the wind is just right, the same exploding animations being used for every death, spiders that drop on a web from the sky etc. etc.

DA2's half-developedness isn't imaginary, it has lots of things you can point at and say "that is slipshod" which are hard to refute.

DA:O is one of the fullest and well-rounded games to have been released in its decade, whatever minor cosmetic issues it might arguably have had, resulting in many people playing it for hundreds of hours very happily, and when I see people trying to strike a note of equivalence between its problems and DA2s, I have to say I'm dumbfounded.

Minor cosmetic issues? Being locked in a room unable to get out isn't minor cosmetic issues, and it's in the last part of DAo before the Landsmeet.

The spiders drop the same way they do from DAO in the Deep Roads. The gang member jump down from roof tops, The animations are there to prove it. The exploding animations only happens on certain critical strikes, not every strike.

The only legitimate gripe is the recycled maps, which has been pretty much agreed upon, but the rest does come up as subjective.

While it's true some of the enemies have proper animations when they join the fray, some do just literally materialize from thin air.  And I don't really think it's even this that bothers most critics, it's that those waves exist at all (often in cramped quarters, rendering any sort of "tactics" moot).  And just speaking from personal experience, once my rogue hit a certain level, every single kill resulted in the same ridiculous cloud of chili.

I never had the materialize problem on either platform, why I'm not sure, but I never really saw it, and I don't see how it's less "cosmentic" than the OP claims many of the problems of DAO are.

As for waves, I'm used to them as that's how it was handled on the consoles because of no isometic view in DAO console version. I'll admit there were some confining fights in areas, but figuring out how to get around them was part of the fun. The only problem I ever had was when a gang encounter overlapped with a quest encounter, which happened on occassion. That was overwhelming because they were all coming at you at once, which really makes tactics a pain in the tuchas.

As for the explosing bodies, what build did you use? Duel wield or archer? Because between cunning upping your critical damage, and duel wield being a crit specialty, plus IIRC dex upping your crit hit chance, yeah it's going to be duck season on the bad guys.  However, this goes back to BG and critical hits. And in it's own way is a lot better than the canned animations one got in DAO, because the slow mo slowed everything, and made it that much more of a pain to get the fight done. especially with the darn ogres.

[Nuke1967]

ozonemania wrote...

In defense of Bioware, I'll put this to you...

Bioware needs to aim for new player sales, not to people already 'loyal' to the franchise. The only way they can grow their fan base is by reaching the new customer. That means a whole lot of things, but namely it has to be accessible, something you can jump into and get into the thick of things in less than an hour or two. It also has to take advantage of current technologies and trends in gaming design to be seen as relevant.

New customers are paramount -- I'm not saying that existing fans are not important -- on the contrary. But for growth, as a strategy they would need to please existing customers enough to get a seal of approval, but really be aiming for new customers.

With the ever accelerating lead times and time-pressure on new game development and releases, there is a limit on how much resources they can put into a game for release in balance with a game's shelf life. Of course we all say we don't mind if BW takes longer to put out a better product, but why spend 3 to 4 years developing a game that has a shelf life of 6 months, when a 1 to 2 year time frame yields the same shelf life? This is part of the reason why I see the DLC model as the most viable method of delivery of new content.

Most of you probably don't realize that when DAO came out, there were just as many gripes about that release as this one. Many new players failed to get hooked and didn't become a 'fan'. Two years later, DAO and expansions/mods have made the game much more than what it was at the beginning. You are viewing DA2 through a lens of long-term play and exposure to DAO. Most players don't, and I think evaluating DA2 on it's own, outside of that scrutiny, the game holds it own very well.

That you are here, 2 years later, still talking about DAO means you are among a very small minority of all people. I am quite sure that BW looked at all the barriers that prevented ppl from becoming a loyal DAO fan, and DA2 certainly addressed many if not all of them.

I think it's also fair to say that as fans, we wouldn't be complaining if we didnt' care. The overwhelming majority of people here seem to have good intentions, although there are some that take pleasure in being a troll.

Anyway, I say this as a balance... I am not a BW employee or anything but I can appreciate the challenges that this game has in relation to its fan base.

Going for new players is great, but it can royally backfire as well. I played Star Wars Galaxies some years back, they kept changing the game to go after new players (actually WOW players), and pretty much pissed off almost every veteran player they had. Their response to the veteran players anger was pretty much "This is the direction we are going. If you don't like it tough." tons of people quit. Leading to SOE game head saying basically some years later "We made a mistake with SWG, we didn't listen to the players, and they voted with their feet (ie quit in droves)".

[Reinveil]

Ariella wrote...

As for the explosing bodies, what build did you use? Duel wield or archer? Because between cunning upping your critical damage, and duel wield being a crit specialty, plus IIRC dex upping your crit hit chance, yeah it's going to be duck season on the bad guys.  However, this goes back to BG and critical hits. And in it's own way is a lot better than the canned animations one got in DAO, because the slow mo slowed everything, and made it that much more of a pain to get the fight done. especially with the darn ogres.

Dual wield, so obviously yeah, I was going to be seeing it more than usual, but it also gave me time to notice that it was the exact same explosion of limbs and bald heads each and every time.  Ideally (at least for me), the next game will find a middle ground between the slower-paced combat of Origins (bring back the kill animations!) and the flashier, more visceral combat of the sequel (perhaps a little less exaggerated).

[Reinveil]

Haexpane wrote...

You didn't see it, that doesn't mean it wasnt there

Bioware's been doing that since Origins and the amazing lovingly-rendered ******.  classy games these are not. 

Also: dat ass.

Edit:  Also also, I felt DAII was WAY worse about romantic interests and "boning hawties" than ME2.  The cheesy come ons fly fast and furious, often out of nowhere with very little characterization.  Much of that dialogue is "sexually charged" in the most tawdry, juvenile way.

Modifié par Reinveil, 27 avril 2011 - 12:31 .

[cindercatz]

Sanarion wrote...



Personally, what annoyed me the most about the game was
unrealized potential. DAO was an amazing starter game, pulling back the curtain
to a world both familiar, but also new. It had the feeling, with it's broad,
epic (which I use in the sense of both length, and scope) story, and with it's
more classic-hero main character, of a legend in making, in-universe.

 

Then came Dragon Age 2.

 

What a hate the most about Dragon Age 2 is the unrealized
potential. It could have been so very, very good. A more personal, more in depth
story would have honestly been wonderful. I liked the "Folk Hero" and
personal journey very much, and the idea of focusing on one city, although a
little strange, wasn't off-putting.

 

What went wrong?

 

In my opinion, time. Time. Time. It could have been
wonderful, but for the sake of money, they rushed it, and ended up making a
deeply flawed product.

 

For a game to tell a personal story, for it have impact for
what they seemed like they were aiming for, it needs to inspire emotion. The
primary emotion I felt playing the game was frustration. In writing classes,
the one thing beat into us, over and over again is the mantra "show, don't
tell." You want to scrap the Origins for a voiced protagonist that feels
more like a character than a vessel for a player? Fine. However, that should
give you the chance to go in depth into the character, and truly get a chance
to make them a character in their own right.

 

What I wanted was to see what Hawke's life was like before
the Blight. When we start the game, after the False-action prologue, which I'll
admit was a fun way to grab the gamer, we should have been able to play through
some of Hawke's life. Just because the Hero losing their home is a well
established cliche doesn't mean it's lost meaning. We get glimpses of how
Hawke's family react, and even, to an extent, Hawke's response to losing the
Home, but we don't get anything other than a few flickers of conversation with
Avaline about it.

 

To me, this was the first sin. Would it have been too much
to see Hawke's life before the Blight? We could have had an intro in Lothering,
maybe play a few scenes from his childhood. 
Had I been a writer, I would have written a few scenes, maybe of Hawke
interacting with his father. Don’t just tell us. Show us him learning the
sword, or magic. Show his interaction with his brother and sister, before it
all fell apart, and what his mother was like before they got driven out from
their home. When we meet Leandra, she’s already broken up, having lost both her
husband and her home. This was a horribly wasted opportunity. I frankly didn’t
really care about her. She was just another face. You want us to care? Show her
happy, with her children before the blight, then show her lose everything, her
home, one of her children. Make it hurt. 


Some scenes of MageHawke hiding from the Templars, maybe a
talk with his/her father, lessons on how to avoid them would have been good as
well. It would have made the conflict of the game seem a lot more personal. You
could have a scene of NotmageHawke with their father as well, maybe having him
ask them, tell them to look after Betheny, protect her from the Templars. That
would have brought it to a personal level, which, when you’re making a game
that is supposed to be human and personal, is the whole point.

That’s just a start. There was so much wasted potential. You
don’t feel the desperation Hawke should have felt, surviving on the streets, on
the edge of poverty, one step ahead of the Templars. If you’re going to focus a
game around a single city, like Kirkwall, the city itself needs to be a
character. It should change with time, having people going about their lives,
maybe even have holidays, events. It shouldn’t just be a series of disconnected
combat areas.  We should feel Hawke’s
pain, or even lack thereof, as his family and friends are stripped away, even
as he becomes more and more powerful.

On to act two. This may be asking for too much, but I have
high expectations for Bioware. They’re Bioware. They’re the kings of the CRPG.
You’re rich, you’re famous. Kirkwall should start to feel like a home. Let us get
attached to the city. Maybe let us meet Hawke’s neighbors, kick back with some
drinks with your companions with at the mansion. Instead, they give us a
cutscene. They could have had us talking with Leandra, showing her pride and
happiness at having the estate back. They did this to an extent, but they could
have done so much more.

 Show. Don’t tell.
Show.

This would have made the Quinari invasion more gripping,
more of a threat. Now, once again, Hawke’s on the verge of losing his home for
the second time.

I’m not going to even start on the final act. I honestly can’t
say anything would help, other than a complete re-write. Bioware has always
been about choice. We didn’t get choice. We got rail-roading. No. Even worse.
We got the illusion of choice. Either way, it didn’t matter. You could have
flipped a coin, for all the good it would do. Templar or Mage, either way, it
ends the exact same. The same people die. Hell, both antagonists end up going
insane, the oldest one in the book. There is precisely one major character you
can decide the fate of. Don’t give us that. You can do better than this,
Bioware. We know you can.

It’s also unclear what you were trying for. Was it a story
about choice, or about the lack thereof? Personally, I think if you didn’t want
us to have choices, I wouldn’t have complained, had it been done *right*. A
story about a Hawke who, despite his wealth, combat skill, and influence, is
little more than pawn being forced around by forces greater than himself would
have worked fine. However, in this case, the pressure was a Meta-gamy, external
pressure. It was immersion-breaking pressure, when it could have deepened immersion.

I’ll give Bioware this. The dialogue was witty, and in my
opinion, all of the characters were essentially well written, with only a few
glaring exceptions. (Looking at you, Orsino.) The Idol was a cop-out, a glaring
boil in the nose of a truly thought-provoking conflict. However…you’re Bioware.
You don’t get credit for that anymore.

It all boils down to time. It was an amazing concept that
failed do to lack of time. DAO gave us a brilliant window into a new world,
with a mythic plot, and Dragon Age II could have been surpassed it, giving us
an intense, personal story. But it didn’t. There wasn’t enough time.

Great post.
I have other problems with the game, but they're increasingly less problematic after all the rebalancing and implementation of auto-attack, aside from too limited customization. This right here though, this stands out more and more as I play. The emotional scope is so confined and cursory to the game. There's a defined character but no depth of character. I keep asking for origins, more reactivity and branching, because they both add to replayability and help to flesh out your character and their internal story, help provide an emotional and conceptual foundation to all the random goings on, but this kind of commitment to immersion and emotional depth throughout is what is most glaringly lost this time out. It actually ended up more 'gamey' than BioWare's previous efforts, all down to this, though all of the dialogue and what you do get of your companion characters is very well done and appreciated.

The only thing I disagree with is that extra time would've solved its problems. That's a factor for sure, but it seems more a question of design decisions, of emphasis. I believe that they made the conscious decision to not overly develope Hawke and his place with family and friends, or the setting, because they wanted to preserve as much of the illusion of choice as they could, knowing full well that a predefined character had been decided on and that the plot would necessarily be more linear, all serving the status quo they intended to set up going forward. They wanted the player to be as minimally grounded as they could within that highly defined preset context, so that the player would hopefully feel free to choose what they could and hopefully maintain the suspension of disbelief. For me, it suffers for all that, but I don't believe time would've resolved that basic tension between design decisions working at cross purpose.

[KennethAFTopp]

I keep going back to the thought that they didn't really take DAII to the next step like they should've done, of course that would've made a much *gasp* longer Development period and budget but rather it seemed to me they just more sidestepped.