494 réponses à ce sujet

[IN1]

Mike tortured me, in fact. And I forgot to mention that David Gaider assisted him.

Now, seriously. I know DA2 is a bit controversial. I know a lot of fans prefer DAO. That's why I leave the plot, the dialogue, the characters out of comparison -- it's a matter of personal preference, after all. Combat mechanics, on the other hand, are what Meredith likes to call cold hard facts.

So. Combat mechanics-wise, what we have is:
 
DAO/DAA:

(1) Extremely easy, to the point of being downright boring. You can literally fall asleep during late game fights. Differences between difficulty levels are minimal. DAO NM is, essentially, Normal where the enemies get a couple of insignificant fixed bonuses. Extremely short cooldown on health/mana potions. Badly designed asymmetrical scaling system: Georg Zoeller advocated it with some vigor in its day, but many things that sound nice in theory just do not work that well practically.

(2) Amateurishly designed, ridiculously unbalanced classes/abilities system. Examples: ridiculously overpowered specializations like Arcane Warrior and DAA Spirit Warrior; pathetically useless specializations like Shapeshifter; Mana Clash (enough said). In a nutshell: Mages, especially AW >>>>>>>> anyone else (DAO); Spirit Warrior Archers >>>>>>>>>> anyone else (DAA).

(3) The implementation of abilities/item properties in DAO/DAA is a buggy mess. ~30-40% of abilities/item properties either do not function properly, or do not work at all. Examples: abilities/properties that should modify threat do not do this (exceptions: AoS, Walking Bomb, Scattershot, Mind Blast, Cadash Stompers); abilities/properties that should modify attack animation speed either do not do this or do this in a buggy/messy/glitchy way; aura-like abilities stack (Rock Mastery, Rally); Shale and Dog abilities bugged beyond belief (yes, you won't believe what Overwhelm actually does); elemental spells applying states use incorrect resistance checks (Cone of Cold always assumes the target has a physical resistance of -1, for example); +X% healing property on items does nothing; crossbows being unaffected by attributes, thus leaving the whole weapon class totally useless. The list, in fact, is much much much longer.

Overall, I'd say DAO combat is an unplayable buggy mess without third-party modifications/fixes (four official patches do very little to fix the mechanics issues). Now, if you don't care about combat at all, I guess you can play DAO just fine. If you do, good luck installing a dozen conflicting third-party mods.

DA2:

(1) The difficulty settings have their issues: the difference between Normal, Hard and NM is reportedly enormous (no first-hand experience with Normal or Hard). However, NM is quite nightmarish, especially on your first playthrough. And that's a good thing for those of us that enjoy challenge. Cooldowns on hp/mana pots are adequate. Fully symmetrical scaling system that may sound idiotic, but, de facto, works much better than DAO/DAA's system. The most challenging NM fight in the game is probably Meredith+Gate Guardians, and that's actually an incredible achievement -- as any experienced RPG player knows, the final bosses are, as a rule, total pushovers due to scaling issues (in other words, party/protagonist getting stronger much faster than the enemies). 

(2) A solidly designed classes/abilities system. Yes, it has it flaws (a bit rigid, I admit). And no, it's no D&D. But it is balanced: little to no useless specializations/talents/spells, this time.

(3) The abilities and the properties are correctly implemented in 95% of the cases. Most of the mechanics glitches (Rally not transferring modals; shield armor rating stacking; Lacerate upgrade treated as a separate ability) were fixed in the very first patch. The only really serious bug that persists is the infinitely stacking Healing Aura.

Overall, I'd say DA2's gameplay design team work is most commendable. DA2 is a huge improvement over DAO/DAA in all things mechanics-related. And that's not a subjective evaluation. Again, I understand that if you don't care much about combat and find the new plot/dialogue/art direction repulsive, this fact alone won't make DA2 any more acceptable for you.

Modifié par IN1, 25 avril 2011 - 09:37 .

[AkiKishi]

DA2 has it's share of very broken builds too and depending on the build everything else about the games combat collapses like a house cards.

[Bostur]

"Extremely easy, to the point of being downright boring"
"Amateurishly designed, ridiculously unbalanced classes/abilities system"

Sounds pretty subjective to me. Being subjective makes sense, but maybe you shouldn't state it as cold hard facts ;-)

I basically agree with your asessment of the individual components, but you are leaving out other important factors, for instance how the components manage to fit together, and how party members can support each other. I also believe controls are important for the feeling and flow of combat.

My cold hard 'fact' is that DA2 combat is an unplayable buggy mess, and that DAO feels very smooth in comparison.

[IN1]

Sounds pretty subjective to me. Being subjective makes sense, but maybe you shouldn't state it as cold hard facts ;-)

Well, it's all easily verifiable, yes?

I basically agree with your asessment of the individual components, but you are leaving out other important factors, for instance how the components manage to fit together, and how party members can support each other.

DA2 is much more synergetic and party-oriented. Hint: CCCs. 

I also believe controls are important for the feeling and flow of combat.

DA2 controls are different from DAO controls?

My cold hard 'fact' is that DA2 combat is an unplayable buggy mess, and that DAO feels very smooth in comparison.

Care to elaborate? Factual proof will be most welcome.

[AkiKishi]

Bostur wrote...

"Extremely easy, to the point of being downright boring"
"Amateurishly designed, ridiculously unbalanced classes/abilities system"

Sounds pretty subjective to me. Being subjective makes sense, but maybe you shouldn't state it as cold hard facts ;-)

I basically agree with your asessment of the individual components, but you are leaving out other important factors, for instance how the components manage to fit together, and how party members can support each other. I also believe controls are important for the feeling and flow of combat.

My cold hard 'fact' is that DA2 combat is an unplayable buggy mess, and that DAO feels very smooth in comparison.

This is the problem with RPGs and difficulty. There is no fixed build for difficulty. DA with mana clash makes mages so easy it's laughable, without mana clash not so much. Ditto with Flemeth or anything big, get it to face away from the rest of the party and you remove 90% of the difficulty of the encounter. This being the case a lot of balance in an RPG is down to the player. The ultimate build does not always make for the best game.

[IN1]

BobSmith101 wrote...

DA2 has it's share of very broken builds too and depending on the build everything else about the games combat collapses like a house cards.

Care to elaborate? In my experience, the only build that feels cheesy (not broken, mind you, just cheesy) on NM is D&S rogue (see signature). 

[Riloux]

Are you kidding? You can beat DA2 with auto-attack alone.

[Cowboy_christo]

wait nightmare in da2 is hard? its easy as pie, it just take forever to kill anything. I actually had to mod to make it somewhat difficult and actually boost up the pace of fight.

Modifié par Cowboy_christo, 25 avril 2011 - 10:01 .

[Bostur]

Just like you, I can't provide proof because the subject is very much one of preferences and feelings.

I'd like to try to elaborate a bit though.

DA2 is much more synergetic and party-oriented. Hint: CCCs. 

If by CCC you mean command, control and communication, this is actually my biggest gripe with DA2. Orders are outright ignored, party members move around in silly ways that makes me spend most of my time trying to rescue them. Pretty much all I can do effectively in DA2 is to press <CTRL> A and try to move them as one unit and focus fire.

Crowd control is very weak in DA2 and lack of friendly fire in combination with weak AOE means that position matters very little. The outright silly wave mechanics also makes position completely irelevant.

If all party members need to stay in one spot, it simply plays like having one unit with a mix of abilities.

DA2 controls are different from DAO controls? ../../../images/forum/emoticons/andy.png

Officially they probably aren't but they are so broken and out of context that the end result is very different. If I'm supposed to play an action game where moving out of fire is more important than making sensible decisions, then a command interface is unsuitable. And if my commands are ignored the controls feel very different.

Modifié par Bostur, 25 avril 2011 - 10:11 .

[IN1]

Riloux wrote...

Are you kidding? You can beat DA2 with auto-attack alone.

On Casual? I'm sure you can.

If you meant NM, I'd absolutely love to see some vids of you auto-attacking your way through, say, Night Lies, Dissent or Nexus Golem fights. Come on, show us some real skill

[IN1]

Cowboy_christo wrote...

wait nightmare in da2 is hard? its easy as pie, it just take forever to kill anything. I actually had to mod to make it somewhat difficult and actually boost up the pace of fight.

Leaving your bravado alone, DA2 NM is objectively much harder than DAO NM. That's the point of my post, not your virtual penis size.

[Melca36]

This is an improvment??







Please explain how enemies materializing is an improvment?
Please explain how a body explosion after a single backstab is an improvment?

They got rid of so many of the more fun combat aspects of Origins. We can no longer trap.

Hopefully they will come up with a compromise for the next game that does NOT pander to one fan base.

[diblob]

Melca36 wrote...

Hopefully they will come up with a compromise for the next game that does NOT pander to one fan base.

Mind if I change your quote slightly to read "dumber fan base", 'cos that's what Bioware was aiming for with DA2

On Easy settings in both DAO and DA2 I found that DAO was more challenging and required tactics/buffing/healing to get past the tougher opponents. In DA2 I completed the entire game using 3 health potions and zero tactics. Button mashing got me through the entire DA2 game. Yes I know it was on Easy setting, but really? No tactics required AT ALL.

So on the tactics and difficulty argument, I would have to vote in favour of DAO.

Modifié par diblob, 25 avril 2011 - 10:14 .

[AkiKishi]

IN1 wrote...
Leaving your bravado alone, DA2 NM is objectively much harder than DAO NM. That's the point of my post, not your virtual penis size.

Is it really ? Or does it just appear that way because of the party makeup in DA vs DA2? 

[IN1]

Filament wrote...

They set you up, IN1. They threw you to the wolves. They will feast on your tears as you lie defeated by trolls, a shattered husk of a man. Look in their eyes and see the soul of cold-blooded betrayal.

Hopefully, since mechanics are objective, and trolling -- by definition -- is not, the comments in this thread will be reasonable enough. I mean, something along the lines of "lol assassinate damage factor sucks man!" is not overly likely to be posted, yes? 

[IN1]

Please explain how enemies materializing is an improvment?
Please explain how a body explosion after a single backstab is an improvment?

Please explain how are your questions related to game mechanics, first. Do you seriously think the concept of mechanics includes corpse explosion/enemy spawn animations? 

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

I'm not an expert on combat mechanics, but I do feel that make a better base to work from compared to Origins. Just an opinion.

Another opinion, but what breaks DA 2's combat is the atrocious combat design. Things like parachuting ninja spawns fall under this category.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 25 avril 2011 - 10:29 .

[IN1]

diblob wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

Hopefully they will come up with a compromise for the next game that does NOT pander to one fan base.

Mind if I change your quote slightly to read "dumber fan base", 'cos that's what Bioware was aiming for with DA2

On Easy settings in both DAO and DA2 I found that DAO was more challenging and required tactics/buffing/healing to get past the tougher opponents. In DA2 I completed the entire game using 3 health potions and zero tactics. Button mashing got me through the entire DA2 game. Yes I know it was on Easy setting, but really? No tactics required AT ALL.

So on the tactics and difficulty argument, I would have to vote in favour of DAO.

Ummm... Easy is meant to be Easy. You want it to be both easy and challenging, somehow? Quite an odd idea. Game challenge rating, so to say, should be judged based on highest difficulty, not the lowest one. I think it's obvious, no?

[Bostur]

I'd like to refer to this thread where a lot of people elaborate on the game play of DA2, with focus on the tactical bit.
http://social.biowar...1/index/7085778

That is if youre really interested in what people think.

[Firky]

IN1 - I'm with you (on all of your original points.) I'm afraid that I'm still on my first fully-NM playthru (never enough time.)

Because I respect your opinion, based on your vids and such, can I ask what you think about one criticism which has emerged for me recently? (Currently, it's probably the only thing I'm not enjoying.)

I don't get why Commanders are so easy to manually dodge. I can take them down fairly quickly now (so I'm not accusing them of being tedious, like some are) but they do this big wind-up to their melee attack and it just takes a sec to pause what I'm doing and move Aveline (or whoever is engaging them) out of the way. You can avoid taking damage altogether.

Do you think that's a flaw? I'm not sure. I tend to think it's better than having the instinct to dodge in DA:O and then running away and being taken down on the other side of the battlefield because the damage was done at the beginning of the animation, but it still doesn't sit right with me somehow.

How would it be improved? Giving Commanders a fast and a slow attack? I dunno. I'm stumped on this one.

[Dormiglione]

IN1 wrote...

Please explain how enemies materializing is an improvment?
Please explain how a body explosion after a single backstab is an improvment?

Please explain how are your questions related to game mechanics, first. Do you seriously think the concept of mechanics includes corpse explosion/enemy spawn animations? 

DA2:
Press Button A as much as you can. Run around and wait til you can use the next health potion (chicken run style). Dont stand still, move as much as you can, take cover (wait this is how i play a shooter). Look always up to the sky, no there arent any flying enemies, but teleporting waves.

Wow, now that is really what i waited for. A "RPG" that i can play like a shooter.

DAO:
Yes, the mage class is overpowered, Thats nothing new. Just avoid to use the overpowered spells like Mana Clash and others, made the fights again interesting.

Traps, i always had a NPC with me who was a trap expert.  A really tactical element.

I could think about a strategy, attack the main enemy or kill first his helpers.

Modifié par Dormiglione, 25 avril 2011 - 10:33 .

[Fallstar]

IN1 wrote...

Riloux wrote...

Are you kidding? You can beat DA2 with auto-attack alone.

On Casual? I'm sure you can.

If you meant NM, I'd absolutely love to see some vids of you auto-attacking your way through, say, Night Lies, Dissent or Nexus Golem fights. Come on, show us some real skill

In which case, feel free to post a video of Gaxkang on nightmare without mana clash. See, I can do it too. Or the Harvester. (Origins version not the p.o.s. DA:2 version). Or the 6 golem room. At least you can't hit >200k in origins. (Impressive btw)

Edit: was actually over 200k, my bad.

Modifié par SirLogical, 25 avril 2011 - 10:37 .

[abaris]

IN1 wrote...

Ummm... Easy is meant to be Easy. You want it to be both easy and challenging, somehow? Quite an odd idea. Game challenge rating, so to say, should be judged based on highest difficulty, not the lowest one. I think it's obvious, no?

Personally I don't care about mechanics. I care about atmosphere. Otherwise I would have found ME one atrocious, since the enemies are imbeciles. Same goes for DAO and DAII finally did it for me, since the atmosphere is totally missing. Exploding enemies and raining spawns are core ingredients of atmosphere killers.

So, there you have it. Totally subjective, but when I play a RPG, I'm not into the beautiful game mechanics, I'm into the experience. In my opinion, this experience has been butchered.