494 réponses à ce sujet

[Mecher3k]

Yrkoon wrote...

PS: Da2's combat was so boring and  brain-dead easy that even  my nephew thought it was cool. He's 10.

Well 10 year olds,  both actual age and mental age, does seem to be their target audience.

So grats Bioware you reached out successfully to your target. It's only too bad you forgotten DA2 is rated M and therefore can't buy it.

[IN1]

I'm fairly certain you pulled this whole thing out of your ass and never once even  opened those files, let alone read them and compared them.

Heh Let's make a deal: I post a comprehensive comparison with sources; you reply with a comment: "I hereby admit that I, Yrkoon, am an insolent underdeveloped ape and a compulsive serial troll that should not be allowed to post on these forums". I need some stimulus -- and that'll do the trick, I believe. Deal?

[lord micha]

I regard IN1 and his invaluable work (just see his sig) very highly. He has given me deep insight into the mechanics and how to play better. I am very thankful for that.

This said: The combat mechanics may be way better in DA2, i give you that. On the other hand however: This aspect alone doesn't make DA2 a better game than DA-O. And this is insinuated in the OP. Combat mechanics are important, but you can't judge a game by them.

DA2 ist held back by many things, the OP named them (at least in part).

[Shibby Razel]

The only thing they got right in this game was in fact the combat 0_o

[lord micha]

And even in combat - with better mechanics - they took away much by: a.) waves, b.) enemy placement, c.) no tactical camera, d.) recycled areas ad nauseum.

All this is a complete mystery to me and in Laidlaws interviews you get only really lame excuses. Bigger audience? See the sales numbers. Recycling "artfully done"? Really???? etc.

I, for example remember fights in DA-O against Revenants: Whenever one came up you knew that you were deep into ****, maybe die within seconds or fight him down on your last straw. (I know IN1 is probably laughing now, but this was my gaming experience). :-)

In DA2: "Oh, a Revenant!" - poof poof poof (awesome button?) - "Oh, he is gone.... next wave please....".

This sums it up for me.

Modifié par lord micha, 26 avril 2011 - 06:12 .

[Haexpane]

Shibby Razel wrote...

The only thing they got right in this game was in fact the combat 0_o

Yes and no.  If we just mean the actual combat mechanics and speed, yes.

But if we talk about respawning enemies and lackluster AI, then no.

[Haexpane]

Melca36 wrote...

 
I'll never understand why people think exploding bodies and enemies materializing out of nowhere is consider game evolution.

 

Someone in power told us this is true, so we must accept it.  Also, games with explosions sell a lot more than games without explosions, and Donald Trump told us that money = the most important thing next to a spray tan and fake teeth.

[Haexpane]

Nasabe wrote...

Haexpane wrote...

Nasabe wrote...
 . And I must agree with the huge health-pool enemies are a big "no, no, no" for me. Makes me feel like I'm raiding in an mmo game, not good.

 )

Except in an MMO the combat is actually fun and dynamic and there is a risk/reward balance.

In DA2 there is no risk, and no reward for the combat.  It's just there to slow you down.  The fact that it's more effective to just HOLD POSITION as soon as you enter a zone instead of moving around and getting positions is also telling.

The respawn waves removed tactics from the early parts of the game, in fact, if you try to employ tactics, you will just kill stuff slower and risk dying.  Again, for almost ZERO reward.

In an mmo it feels fun and dynamic because you don't control the whole party and feel like you are synchronizing with another person.

In this state, the combat in DA2 is screaming for co-op imo. Would be very fun. But as a single-player experience boss fights are more of a grind than anything else with that I agree.

Absolutely, the single player boss fights are like "just stay alive long enough, stop dying you idiots, screw it, I'll just solo the thing with my tank"

Although the last fight I ended up babysitting Merril instead of playing my Tank Hawke because tanking gets so boring on boss fights in DA2

[Mecher3k]

Shibby Razel wrote...

The only thing they got right in this game was in fact the combat 0_o

No you would be wrong.

Now go take your ADD meds.

[Persephone]

IN1 wrote...

neppakyo wrote...

Filament wrote...

Captain Sassy Pants wrote...

Filament wrote...

They set you up, IN1. They threw you to the wolves. They will feast on your tears as you lie defeated by trolls, a shattered husk of a man. Look in their eyes and see the soul of cold-blooded betrayal.

How will he be defeated by trolls, when he is trolling?

But he's not, he's just arguing a point this forum is unaccustomed to being challenged on.

But he will be defeated when despite his reasoned arguments everyone dismisses him as a troll anyway, and then his mind shatters, his face melts off and his children weep over his exploded body.

Oh, you mean he was in DA2 too?

Yes, yes, you are so perceptive and witty! I am just another exploding body animation designed by evil Laidlaw and Gaider, that just keep insulting honest fans like yourself by trying to -- how do you love to put it? -- cater to brainless console-user masses!!! 

And the funny part is....the only console I (An ardent DAII fan) own, is the ancient Nintendo. :devil:

[lord micha]

Persephone, he didn't even adress you in the quotes. The problem is that he was "threwn to the wolves" by Laidlaw/Gaider by "try to write up something positive on DA2, you are the expert!". Many people replying in this thread don't get what IN1 is doing... at all. He gets the vitriol which should be addressed to the correct party, Bioware or EA.

[Persephone]

lord micha wrote...

Persephone, he didn't even adress you in the quotes. The problem is that he was "threwn to the wolves" by Laidlaw/Gaider by "try to write up something positive on DA2, you are the expert!". Many people replying in this thread don't get what IN1 is doing... at all. He gets the vitriol which should be addressed to the correct party, Bioware or EA.

I know that. I was kidding.

[neppakyo]

Persephone wrote...
And the funny part is....the only console I (An ardent DAII fan) own, is the ancient Nintendo. :devil:

I own the ol' NES, SNES, GBA, PS2, PS3, XBOX360.

I think if I turned any of them on they'd catch fire from all the dust and dirt in them from sitting for so long.

So, how're ya, Pepsi?

[ThomasBlaine]

I agree with the OP in that the combat difficulty, at least on nightmare mode, is much higher in Da2 than in Origins, generally because of the listed arguments.

It doesn't change my opinion that the game, combat included, is horrible compared to the first one, and that you, IN1, are being incredibly rude, arrogant and condescending in addressing our responses, for no apparent reason.

Modifié par ThomasBlaine, 26 avril 2011 - 08:57 .

[Kendaric Varkellen]

IN1 wrote...

---snip---

Overall, I'd say DA2's gameplay design team work is most commendable. DA2 is a huge improvement over DAO/DAA in all things mechanics-related. And that's not a subjective evaluation. Again, I understand that if you don't care much about combat and find the new plot/dialogue/art direction repulsive, this fact alone won't make DA2 any more acceptable for you.

Sorry, but I wouldn't even consider the mechanics an improvement for the most part. The only real improvements I see are fewer buggy abilities and the lack of extremely overpowered abilities/specializations.
Things like difficulty or enemy scaling are completely subjective, they are always based on personal preference. Personally, I prefer DA:O's scaling system to DA2, so no improvement in that regard in my opinion.

Also, a game shouldn't be judged on it's highest difficulty setting but on it's default, a.k.a. "normal", difficulty and "normal" difficulty in DA2 is a lot easier than it was in DA:O.

Modifié par Kendaric Varkellen, 26 avril 2011 - 09:42 .

[tmp7704]

IN1 wrote...

Huh? Technically, the process of extracting difficulty.gda from da2.rim is pretty simple. DAO's difficulty.xls is even easier to find. You clearly have no idea what I am talking about, though, so I see no reason to continue this discussion.

In all fairness, while extracting data from the .gda is simple, the catch is the data extracted this way has no human-readable labels attached to the values but just numeric IDs... which, unlike the source .xls available for DAO, can make it quite a bit more difficult to figure out what all these values actually alter. Would that be the reason why you're somewhat reluctant to delve into the details?

There's post by Mr.Thomas referenced here which lists the affected areas, but without associating them with the exact values. Don't know if someone took time to figure out connection between these two.

[AlanC9]

Kendaric Varkellen wrote...
Also, a game shouldn't be judged on it's highest difficulty setting but on it's default, a.k.a. "normal", difficulty and "normal" difficulty in DA2 is a lot easier than it was in DA:O.

As it was designed to be. But what of it? Should the default difficulty for a game be more difficult than DA2's? If so, why?

[tmp7704]

AlanC9 wrote...

As it was designed to be. But what of it? Should the default difficulty for a game be more difficult than DA2's? If so, why?

Perhaps the idea is, since the OP makes a point how one of weak spots of DAO was the game was too easy and as such boring... then the experience DA2 provides to average player is a game that's even easier. Which --if we follow the idea that easy = boring = bad-- wouldn't exactly make DA2 a better game in this regard. Again, to the average player rather than someone who chooses to pick the highest difficulty level.

Modifié par tmp7704, 26 avril 2011 - 10:33 .

[Guitarjoe91]

The mechanics in DA2 seem more sound to me, however the fights themselves aren't as great, such as fights that feature materializing waves and such.

[Sylvius the Mad]

In Exile wrote...

The problem is that you can't have (IMO) non-turn based hex combat and then try and keep it purely dice driven. Once you allow things like free movement and real-time (but with pause) combat, you have to allow for some basic features of reality like collision detection.

Why?

I understand you're saying this is your opinion, but I don't understand why you need things like collision detection.  Why can't it all be dice-driven?  I don't see the connection you're making.

In Exile wrote...

I'm aware of what an RPG is. I'm saying that as a design choice, once you move away from turn-based hex and act as if what you see on the screen is what you get, it's rage-inducing to have dice rolls decide actions while the game pretends that you can control it in real-time.

You create an expectation that physical laws (which are intutiive to us) will be obeyed instead of approximations and then you violate that.

Okay, I see what you're saying.  But if the rules are clearly laid out in the game's documentation, then there shouldn't be an expectation of some approximation of reality.

I don't think the problem you're describing actually exists.

In Exile wrote...

Personally, I'd go back to hex based and turn based combat. But I don't think I'll get my wish, so instead, I'd rather that physical distance matter, but the same rules apply to the PC and the NPCs. None of this 10,000 HP enemies and 100 HP PCs.

I agree entirely.

That Hawke does vastly more damage than an Ogre completely breaks the setting.  This on its own is enough to ruin the game.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 26 avril 2011 - 11:10 .

[EternalPink]

I've not found the combat an improvement on origins myself, if anything its going backwards.

So far fights last a little bit longer due to respawns but thats it, i'd rather they all came in at once and then i'd position/aoe abilities or control abilities against the crowd to manage the fight, now its just kill everything quickly and hope they don't warp in next to a squishy.

Also i've found a archer who took X amount of hits to kill in Act 1 take pretty much the same amount of hits to kill in Act 3 since they now have better defense/more HP.

In origins it made sense that my newbie warden took quite a few hits to kill a normal darkspawn but towards the end of the game could 1 shot them since i saw that as a sign of my warden growing and getting stronger from more experience and better gear.

Also i'm not loving that friendly fire is off unless you go into hard mode since generally speaking i don't play in hard mode since if i'm after a real challenge i go and play a mmo with pvp combat since real players are more of a challenge than AI so its either play with companions unrealistically aoeing everything in sight or having those companions die to the warp ins

Modifié par EternalPink, 26 avril 2011 - 11:33 .

[Yrkoon]

tmp7704 wrote...

IN1 wrote...

Huh? Technically, the process of extracting difficulty.gda from da2.rim is pretty simple. DAO's difficulty.xls is even easier to find. You clearly have no idea what I am talking about, though, so I see no reason to continue this discussion.

In all fairness, while extracting data from the .gda is simple, the catch is the data extracted this way has no human-readable labels attached to the values but just numeric IDs... which, unlike the source .xls available for DAO, can make it quite a bit more difficult to figure out what all these values actually alter. Would that be the reason why you're somewhat reluctant to delve into the details?

There's post by Mr.Thomas referenced here which lists the affected areas, but without associating them with the exact values. Don't know if someone took time to figure out connection between these two.

Exactly.

Which is why the  red flags went up right away for me the mili-second someone suggested we look at these files to see  for ourselves how much 'harder" DA2's combat is.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 27 avril 2011 - 12:56 .

[Mantaal]

Well in DA2 you can One-hit all trash mobs what makes it feel like a shooter.
It has no Isometric view, the tanking was pretty much like "Use one skill and you got aggro from everything forever" and is about as same unbalanced as DA:O was. I didnt play a Mage in DA2 very far but if you skill Rogue or Warrior right the game will be laughable in Nightmare. A wave of one hit mobs with a two-hit Captain. Assasinate& Double Dagger (i dont know the prober english names for the skills) - done.
As a Warrior (Vanguard/Berserker) you just rightclick something and you could go AFK watch some TV.



beware of the bad music in this Video.

Overall i think DA2 Combat was a huge step backwards. It doesnt even feel like an RPG anymore. It felt more like an ActionRPG/Beat'em Up mix. The only good thing in DA2 combat was the execution time of the Skills you click. But thats no reason to make the combat overall faster and make Platemail Warriors fly around.

Modifié par Mantaal, 27 avril 2011 - 01:57 .

[IN1]

In all fairness, while extracting data from the .gda is simple, the catch is the data extracted this way has no human-readable labels attached to the values but just numeric IDs... which, unlike the source .xls available for DAO, can make it quite a bit more difficult to figure out what all these values actually alter. Would that be the reason why you're somewhat reluctant to delve into the details?

Yeah, you got me! Those IDs are sooooo mysterious!  Are you kidding me? The fact you cannot figure it out does not mean they aren't human-readable. 

There is a couple I cannot figure out, I admit, but that's basically immaterial (besides, we can always ask Peter -- he's very nice and helpful). Why? Because both difficulty and creatureranks files for DA2 feature a whole bunch of bonuses for enemies, while both difficulty and creatureranks files for DAO feature... eh... a 5% resistance bonus, and no AR penalties, more or less. In other words, there is almost no difference between Normal and NM enemies in DAO, while Normal and NM enemies in DA2 are vastly different.

Which is why the  red flags went up right away for me the mili-second someone suggested we look at these files to see  for ourselves how much 'harder" DA2's combat is.

No, the "red flags went up" mostly because you are a patented troll. So, Yrkoon, mon chéri, do we have a deal? I post the comparison, you admit you are a mentally challenged ape. Come on, you seem to be so sure of me being insincere -- there is no risk involved then, right?

[dmmmmmmmm]

Eh, i think the most challenging fight in DA2 is the battle with Hybris. Meredith is not harder than the Archdemon atleast with my experience (both on Nightmare and first time play).
Talents are more balance i guest, but still many are useless. Friendly fire make some are much more superior than others (eg tempest). Nearly all warrior's talents affect companion, this definitely needs some tweaks.

Modifié par dmmmmmmmm, 27 avril 2011 - 03:45 .