494 réponses à ce sujet

[Dragoonlordz]

Tommy6860 wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

IN1 wrote...
Another comment in this vein will get you banned. Be sarcastic all you like, but direct personal insults will not be tolerated.

IN1 wrote...
a. You mean, why don't I join the chorus of ass-wounded (ex-)fans for some mighty ****ing and whining.

b. I don't debate things with serial trolls/self-appointed people representatives You -- you personally (singular grammatically)

Moral highground where?

You aren't debating combat mechanics with anyone you merely gloss over posts looking for aspects you can use your lowest form of wit on (sarcasm). You have failed to answer half the things I brought up regarding your initial thread creation post or even most of the second reply I gave you.

Yes, I also found it fascinating for those who make high moral proclamations, but follow up with that thinking with little substance of their own.

I have responded to each point he has made and he has yet to reply/answer towards most of them. Instead resulting to sarcasm at every turn. He is arrogant and a hypocrite for warning me of bans regarding personal attacks yet has done so himself on occassion in this very thread to others.

So whats your point baring that in mind?

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 29 avril 2011 - 12:28 .

[Mantaal]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

IN1 wrote...
Another comment in this vein will get you banned. Be sarcastic all you like, but direct personal insults will not be tolerated.

IN1 wrote...
You mean, why don't I join the chorus of ass-wounded (ex-)fans for some mighty ****ing and whining.

Moral highground where?

You aren't debating combat mechanics with anyone you merely gloss over posts looking for aspects you can use your lowest form of wit on (sarcasm). You have failed to answer half the things I brought up regarding your initial thread creation post or even most of the second reply I gave you.

I have to agree here. He just picks out some of the text out of context and only responding to those sentences. Thats not a nice way to have a converstion.
Everyone can talk others down that way. And just ignore the points others make.

Back to topic.

The only good Combat mechanics DA2 has over DA:O is the execution of the Skills. In DA:O they had a delayed reaction time, sometimes. Thats better in DA2.

But the balancing is not very different. If you skill the "wrong" skills for your Character you end up useless. Like if you played a Shapeshifter in DA:O.
The Combinations of Abilitys was much better in DA:O. Why .. or better How.. you should use a Combination of skills if you could just 1, one hit them with your Assasin 2, right click them with your Warrior /Vanguard Berserker or just AoE them down with your Mages? Oh you talking about Bosses? Yeah they dont tend to be immune to 99% of the combo skills you got like Knowdown and Freeze.....

And on top of that you killed the Combat mechianics with the ability to make Plate Warriors fly over the battlefield in lightspeed and Rogues teleporting to the Enemy Mage on the other end of the World to one hit him.
The positioning of the Enemys does not matter most times because you can attack and kill the low armor Enemys everytime and everywhere.

But the worst thing about the Combat mechanics in DA2 is the low life and armor of the Trash mobs. In DA:O you had to fight every group of enemys. I dont say it was harder but they had armor and life and you have to fight against them. In DA2 you send an AoE in or just one hit them. Real "Fights" almost never happens outside Boss fights. Boooom! Dead, next one... Booooom! dead, next one.. Thats DA2 combat.

The MMO style Bosses would be .. kinda cool. Im playing MMORPGs since 1997 and know better ones by far. But still they would be kinda cool. If the Companion mechanics would work. "Stay! Behind the Pillar!" companion moves to the boss and melees him "Go behind the Pillar and STAY dammit!" companion moves to the Boss and melees him.... companion down ..

Modifié par Mantaal, 29 avril 2011 - 12:41 .

[IN1]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

IN1 wrote...
Another comment in this vein will get you banned. Be sarcastic all you like, but direct personal insults will not be tolerated.

IN1 wrote...
You mean, why don't I join the chorus of ass-wounded (ex-)fans for some mighty ****ing and whining.

Moral highground where?

You aren't debating combat mechanics with anyone you merely gloss over posts looking for aspects you can use your lowest form of wit on (sarcasm). You have failed to answer half the things I brought up regarding your initial thread creation post or even most of the second reply I gave you.

Sarcasm, especially when directed towards an abstract group of people, is one thing. Rude personal insults are something altogether different. I haven't offended you personally -- in fact, I had no contact with you until very recently. You, on the other hand, have gone over the top. If you cannot tell the difference yourself, one of the moderators will take care of it. 

To be honest, your comments demonstrate an ignorance of such magnitude regarding most basic mechanics concepts, that I am reluctant to enter any kind of discussion with you -- I wouldn't know where to start. You cannot expect me to lecture you first, right? Too much time and effort on my part involved. It's a bit like debating archaic Greek poetry with someone who's not even sure where Greece is.
I am assured you will prefer to believe the strength of your argument is so overwhelming that I cannot cope with it. Well, who cares?

[Tommy6860]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Tommy6860 wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

IN1 wrote...
Another comment in this vein will get you banned. Be sarcastic all you like, but direct personal insults will not be tolerated.

IN1 wrote...
You mean, why don't I join the chorus of ass-wounded (ex-)fans for some mighty ****ing and whining.

Moral highground where?

You aren't debating combat mechanics with anyone you merely gloss over posts looking for aspects you can use your lowest form of wit on (sarcasm). You have failed to answer half the things I brought up regarding your initial thread creation post or even most of the second reply I gave you.

Yes, I also found it fascinating for those who make high moral proclamations, but follow up with that thinking with little substance of their own.

I have responded to each point he has made and he has yet to answer towards most of them.

So whats your point baring that in mind?

Don't respond to him anymore, as it seems to get the better of you than it does him. If he really believed what he says, he would have not replied to you anymore, most likely anyway since he appears convinced to some meme of the game's mechanics. When you engage post after post to then realize he is simply making arguments for argument's sake, it is then time to keep your wits and your valid focal points for those who are engaging in critical thinking, not with those who are being critically cynical. There are a few of those here I just don't bother with anymore, especially those like the one you are dealing with now, that engage in the same way, then throw out a olive branch to appear to see other points, and then tread the fence the rest of the way as to appear reasonable. I am afraid though, this guy is fenced in his own yard and from reading even just a few of his posts, I have never bothered with him..

Modifié par Tommy6860, 29 avril 2011 - 12:35 .

[IN1]

Don't respond to him anymore

I concur. Don't respond to me anymore, please

[TheBorderBishop]

I've said my piece IN1. I'm not going to get into a silly slagging match over the internet. If it means anything, congratulations, you won.

[Mantaal]

IN1 wrote...

Don't respond to him anymore

I concur. Don't respond to me anymore, please

Well thats the best idea.. Im out of here too. You dont listen to anyone anyways..
Your opinion is already set in stone.. as your cold hard "facts" 

Just a hint from me.. get your Head out of your .. backdoor..

[IN1]

TheBorderBishop wrote...

I've said my piece IN1. I'm not going to get into a silly slagging match over the internet. If it means anything, congratulations, you won.

Judging by your posts, you a reasonable and intelligent person. I would have loved to see your feedback on DAO/DA2 game mechanics. For some reason, you have opted to assume the role of a judge of my personal qualities instead. A pity, really.

[Dragoonlordz]

IN1 wrote...

Sarcasm, especially when directed towards an abstract group of people, is one thing. Rude personal insults are something altogether different. I haven't offended you personally -- in fact, I had no contact with you until very recently. You, on the other hand, have gone over the top. If you cannot tell the difference yourself, one of the moderators will take care of it. 

To be honest, your comments demonstrate an ignorance of such magnitude regarding most basic mechanics concepts, that I am reluctant to enter any kind of discussion with you -- I wouldn't know where to start. You cannot expect me to lecture you first, right? Too much time and effort on my part involved. It's a bit like debating archaic Greek poetry with someone who's not even sure where Greece is.
I am assured you will prefer to believe the strength of your argument is so overwhelming that I cannot cope with it. Well, who cares?

IN1 wrote...
I don't debate things with serial trolls/self-appointed people representatives You -- you personally (singular grammatically)

It's a bit like debating archaic Greek poetry with someone who's not even sure where Greece is.

Clearly you lack the understanding of what a personal insult is so I highlighted some of your comments for you in the form of quotes. If a moderator was to ban me for insulting you then the same rule must be applied to yourself.

I brought up points worth debating and your "comments demonstrate an ignorance of such magnitude regarding most basic mechanics concepts" just shows how close minded you are and the fact as others have already said as well as myself you simply scan replies for sentences or phrase and use sarcasm to attack the person instead of answering what they ask which says more about you than others.

Either way since you clearly don't wish to debate instead only belittle people then I too am done here for the simple fact there is no point in trying to talk with someone whos agenda isn't to debate, only to nit pick sentences and then skip the questions and replies brought up. You really aren't worth the effort and I would have more chance of having an intelligent conversation with a pebble but goodluck and fun continuing your charade.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 29 avril 2011 - 12:58 .

[IN1]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

IN1 wrote...

Sarcasm, especially when directed towards an abstract group of people, is one thing. Rude personal insults are something altogether different. I haven't offended you personally -- in fact, I had no contact with you until very recently. You, on the other hand, have gone over the top. If you cannot tell the difference yourself, one of the moderators will take care of it. 

To be honest, your comments demonstrate an ignorance of such magnitude regarding most basic mechanics concepts, that I am reluctant to enter any kind of discussion with you -- I wouldn't know where to start. You cannot expect me to lecture you first, right? Too much time and effort on my part involved. It's a bit like debating archaic Greek poetry with someone who's not even sure where Greece is.
I am assured you will prefer to believe the strength of your argument is so overwhelming that I cannot cope with it. Well, who cares?

IN1 wrote...
I don't debate things with serial trolls/self-appointed people representatives You -- you personally (singular grammatically)

It's a bit like debating archaic Greek poetry with someone who's not even sure where Greece is.

Clearly you lack the understanding of what a personal insult is so I highlighted some of your comments for you in the form of quotes. If a moderator was to ban me for insulting you then the same rule must be applied to yourself.

I brought up points worth debating and your "comments demonstrate an ignorance of such magnitude regarding most basic mechanics concepts" just shows how close minded you are and the fact as others have already said as well as myself you simply scan replies for sentences or phrase and use sarcasm to attack the person instead of answering what they ask which says more about you than others.

Either way since you clearly don't wish to debate instead only belittle people then I too am done here for the simple fact there is no point in trying to talk with someone whos agenda isn't to debate, only to nit pick sentences and then skip the questions and replies brought up. You really aren't worth the effort and I would have more chance of having an intelligent conversation with a pebble but goodluck and fun continuing your charade.

All right. Good luck to you too. No irony, this time

[tetracycloide]

IN1 wrote...

I don't find it trivial at all. I mean, yes, you do have a fair share of trivial encounters, but there is also a whole lot of them that are anything but trivial. And I don't think the correct tactical solution is always obvious (ARW, Night Lies, Brekker, Ser Alrik, just to name a few). At least, my experience tells me something different. Granted, I was playing either solo, or solo + passive buff-bots, but still...

Then we're really just talking opinions then since I've done all the fights you mention by name and that's how I felt about them.  Just take the ARW as an example.  Phase 1 is trivial with a group or solo really so I'll skip it.  Phase 2+, after the ARW starts balling up and rolling around it's literally a 100% kite fest were you run out of the ARW's path of attack and throw in attacks when you can.  I mean you pretty much sumed up the fight yourself when you were asked to post videos of it in you 'solo nightmare rogue walkthrough' thread.  Your respnose was 'I don't think anyone wants to see me kiting the ARW for 30 mins' or something along those lines.  I mean in that thread you didn't even think the fight warrented a video since what you do is obvious it's just time consuming and repedative and very unforgiving of even a moment of inattention.

[tetracycloide]

Roxlimn wrote...

tetracycloide:

Given that assassins are exposed by several AoE effects, I rather thought that Bioware meant for the player to use those effects in order to counter Assassins, which also won't one-shot party members except at the most extreme difficulty level - Nightmare.

Also, fights shouldn't be taking you that long to finish.  If you're taking too long with fights, you're overstepping your skill level.  Take it down a notch and enjoy yourself.

Stealth isn't the issue with assassin's.  It's that they one-shot party memebers at the only level of difficulty I play (read: nightmare).

Fights don't take more or less time based on 'skill.'  No amount of skill is going to make your weapons deal more damage or your backstab crit harder.  What a completely ludicrous thing to say.

[IN1]

tetracycloide wrote...

IN1 wrote...

I don't find it trivial at all. I mean, yes, you do have a fair share of trivial encounters, but there is also a whole lot of them that are anything but trivial. And I don't think the correct tactical solution is always obvious (ARW, Night Lies, Brekker, Ser Alrik, just to name a few). At least, my experience tells me something different. Granted, I was playing either solo, or solo + passive buff-bots, but still...

Then we're really just talking opinions then since I've done all the fights you mention by name and that's how I felt about them.  Just take the ARW as an example.  Phase 1 is trivial with a group or solo really so I'll skip it.  Phase 2+, after the ARW starts balling up and rolling around it's literally a 100% kite fest were you run out of the ARW's path of attack and throw in attacks when you can.  I mean you pretty much sumed up the fight yourself when you were asked to post videos of it in you 'solo nightmare rogue walkthrough' thread.  Your respnose was 'I don't think anyone wants to see me kiting the ARW for 30 mins' or something along those lines.  I mean in that thread you didn't even think the fight warrented a video since what you do is obvious it's just time consuming and repedative and very unforgiving of even a moment of inattention.

I had little experience with the game at that moment: I was wrong. ARW can be dealt with in quite creative (within reasonable limits) ways even when playing solo. Check out my recent Edge of Night build, for example.

[Corto81]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

DAO/DAA
(1) Extremely easy, to the point of being downright boring.

DA2
(1) The difficulty settings have their issues: the difference between Normal, Hard and NM is reportedly enormous (no first-hand experience with Normal or Hard). However, NM is quite nightmarish, especially on your first playthrough. And that's a good thing for those of us that enjoy challenge. Cooldowns on hp/mana pots are adequate. Fully symmetrical scaling system that may sound idiotic, but, de facto, works much better than DAO/DAA's system. The most challenging NM fight in the game is probably Meredith+Gate Guardians, and that's actually an incredible achievement -- as any experienced RPG player knows, the final bosses are, as a rule, total pushovers due to scaling issues (in other words, party/protagonist getting stronger much faster than the enemies).

*That is not a fact*

The fact is it's different for each person e.g. I find personally DA2 a lot easier than DAO. Just like how my friend couldn't complete a level on Tomb Raider constantly trying day in day out for 3 weeks then I popped around and completed the game for him without dying a single time. There are many more examples of this which I could apply. In reality a) increase HP bar vastly per difficulty add more waves method. It is by far the oldest trick in the book and has been used for more than two decades in gaming. It's not because it is a better system, it's because it's the easiest system to implement. Don't talk about something you don't know with regard to the highlighted aspect above. Until you have tried it all yourself you have no right to say it's harder or easier, if enough people tell you the world is flat doesnt make that true and the same applies to using 3rd hand information regarding difficulty scaling. I will also point out again different people find different things easier or harder.

DAO/DAA
(2) Amateurishly designed, ridiculously unbalanced classes/abilities system. Examples: ridiculously overpowered specializations like Arcane Warrior and DAA Spirit Warrior; pathetically useless specializations like Shapeshifter; Mana Clash (enough said). In a nutshell: Mages, especially AW >>>>>>>> anyone else (DAO); Spirit Warrior Archers >>>>>>>>>> anyone else (DAA).

DA2
(2) A solidly designed classes/abilities system. Yes, it has it flaws (a bit rigid, I admit). And no, it's no D&D. But it is balanced: little to no useless specializations/talents/spells, this time.

First off it was designed by the same people who had spent many years making games most of which for Bioware including working also on DAO as did DA2. The classes in DA2/DAO/DAA are no more balanced than each other, a mage still rapes everything aka (overpowered) when built right and a rogue and warrior do the same. Likewise picking the wrong stats can ruin your class. The same applies for skills. It's all dependant on what you pick and is not balanced because the simple fact is you pick it. Go full Dex and Strength and see how much damage you do with your beloved spells then. Unless they remove the ability to pick stats the classes and skills wont be balanced.

DAO/DAA
(3) The implementation of abilities/item properties in DAO/DAA is a buggy mess. ~30-40% of abilities/item properties either do not function properly, or do not work at all. Examples: abilities/properties that should modify threat do not do this (exceptions: AoS, Walking Bomb, Scattershot, Mind Blast, Cadash Stompers); abilities/properties that should modify attack animation speed either do not do this or do this in a buggy/messy/glitchy way; aura-like abilities stack (Rock Mastery, Rally); Shale and Dog abilities bugged beyond belief (yes, you won't believe what Overwhelm actually does); elemental spells applying states use incorrect resistance checks (Cone of Cold always assumes the target has a physical resistance of -1, for example); +X% healing property on items does nothing; crossbows being unaffected by attributes, thus leaving the whole weapon class totally useless. The list, in fact, is much much much longer.

DA2
(3) The abilities and the properties are correctly implemented in 95% of the cases. Most of the mechanics glitches (Rally not transferring modals; shield armor rating stacking; Lacerate upgrade treated as a separate ability) were fixed in the very first patch. The only really serious bug that persists is the infinitely stacking Healing Aura.

Bringing you some bad news here all 3 titles are as buggy as each other. Most of the 'bugs' are ironed out over time just like DA2 ones will be and DAO/DAA was. Just as examples for DA2 taken from Wikia:

 PC   360   PS3  Haste spell is extremely bugged. Even though it is supposed to be a buff spell, it is affected by your party's magic resistance. So, if your characters have high magic resistance, it will wear off very quickly. [/list]
 PC   360   PS3  Rally talent for Warriors does not correctly extend the benefits of sustained modes to other party members. What this means exactly is unclear, as it was taken from the PC readme file. [/list]
 PC   PS3  Stealth, Decoy, & Invisible Friend, on activation the enemy sometimes is still able to target you and damage you while in stealth. [/list]
 PC  Healing Aura & Panacea (spell) only has their area of effect of 1-2m (roughly estimated from a characters height) regardless of their information claiming 6m. [/list]
 PC  Backstab & Vendetta, when executed against an enemy whose back is to a balcony (or similar area), it is possible to teleport over the balcony. This can result in a character being stuck in a normally inaccessible area. [/list]
 PC  Cone of Cold sometimes the area in which you aim the semi-circle to aim the attack cannot be moved, forcing the user to quit the attack or attack directly in front of the user. [/list]
 360  Auto Attack in combat has a probability that the playable character will simply stop attacking. Witnessed as a rogue. The rogue simply swung their weapons around as they do when they have no target, despite have a clear target, including it's label indicator standing right in front of the rogue. This was corrected by drinking a potion of stamina draught. [/list]
 360  Holy Smite This talent is meant to have an AoE of 8m around the Templar. You can set the tactics for the Templar character to activate if x number of enemies are clustered. This allows the Templar to damage a group of enemies across the battlefield. [/list]
 PS3  Unforgiving Chain's Ring will occasionally remain after combat, appearing over item icons for or dialog icons next to a character's name. This will disappear after re-initiating combat or switching to another character. [/list]
 360  Vengeance When in the quest Night Terrors during Act 2, if you take Anders into the fade and he doesn't[/i] have the sustained ability Vengeance, Justice will[/i] activate it and you can not deactivate it until you get it and deactivate it. Alternatively, activating Panacea will deactivate Vengeance. [/list]
 PS3  Mind Blast will trigger spontaneously for any controlled mage character that knows the spell, even if a different spell was selected from the paused menu. [/list]
 PC   360   PS3  Dog will occasionally not follow the party, instead staying in the last place he moved to during combat. [/list]
 PC   360   PS3  During combat, it happens frequently that any AOE talents or spells is locked at a fixed position and the player cannot cast the talent or spell. This happens very often and unpredictable, which seriously affect combat performance. [/list]
 PC   360   PS3  Regroup Spell by Anders or any means of reviving fallen party members, upon use will occasionally continually regenerate their health as if they are outside of combat. They will not draw weapons unless directed to, and after using a spell or talent, they will revert back to non combat mode. This is often triggered if the revive spell is cast while enemy(s) are stealthed or in the case of the Rock Wraith 'burrowing underground'. [/list]
 PC   PS3  Range Companions that are not being controlled in combat will always take a break between every attack by swinging their weapon around; therefore, reducing their effectiveness by about 50%. [/list]
 PC   PS3  Companions will occasionally stop fighting during combat, or not initiate combat at all. Manually switching to that character and beginning combat, then switching back, will start them fighting. [/list]
 PC   PS3  Companions will ignore "Hold Position" command upon being too far from the controlled character. [/list]
 PC   PS3  After combat some Companions will shout "AH!" or a similar combat noise shortly after combat has finished and the party is moving on. This occurs as a result of Sustainable Skills that are not turned off right after combat. [/list]
 PC  Regroup Spell by Anders when used in Tactics, if a companion falls, it will be used even if Panacea isn't activated. [/list]
 PC  After being revived from KO in mid-combat, companions will sometimes stop following their tactics and will keep re-initializing attack. The problems appears to be solved by either exiting and re-entering combat or by opening and then closing the menu. [/list]
 PC  Tactic Slots with use of item when moved will not be saved correctly after Tactics Menu is closed. Both, left and right parts of tactic-slot will be corrupted. [/list]
 PC  Tactics Slots which were scrolled with mouse scroll will cause other Tactic Slots to lose order and "Conditions for Next Tactics" will lose their targets. [/list]
 PC  The cursor used to interact with an object (doors, quest items...) sometimes will not appear and prevent the player from interacting with the object. Switching characters seems to fix this(NOT always, sometimes only save-load can fix it, or restarting the game). In cases where character portraits are stuck highlighted during this bug, it can frequently be fixed by mousing over the highlighted portrait until it is no longer highlighted. [/list]
 360  During combat, after felling an enemy who was stunned, the enemy, although dead, will still be seen to be staggering in a standing position, though will not attempt to attack the party or exit the stagger to fall to the ground. The only fix seems to be leaving an area and then returning, required if the staggered individual is carrying quest necessary loot. [/list]

DAO/DAA
Overall, I'd say DAO combat is an unplayable buggy mess without third-party modifications/fixes (four official patches do very little to fix the mechanics issues). Now, if you don't care about combat at all, I guess you can play DAO just fine. If you do, good luck installing a dozen conflicting third-party mods.

DA2
Overall, I'd say DA2's gameplay design team work is most commendable. DA2 is a huge improvement over DAO/DAA in all things mechanics-related. And that's not a subjective evaluation. Again, I understand that if you don't care much about combat and find the new plot/dialogue/art direction repulsive, this fact alone won't make DA2 any more acceptable for you.

Dumbest and most insulting comments for the week. There are as many flaws in DA2 combat system as was in DAO/DAA. We are on 2nd patch already for DA2 and there are still vast amounts of bugs/glitches and ones so bad they make it an 'unplayable buggy mess' by your standards you set using DAO/DAA.

Honestly, I think this post owns this thread.

[Foolsfolly]

Without getting into specifics and huge wall 'o text areas....


I prefer the combat of DA2 but there's still room to improve. Largely, I want some of the tactical elements back. DA2's combat is better than DA:O but it's a different sort of combat all together. DA:O felt more like a turn based game whereas DA2 is more of a button masher RPG.

But I like it's speed. I like it's accessibility. I like many things about the combat. But I wish there were more tactical choices. Instead, I can alter the tactics screens and mash my way to victory over randomly spawning masses all around my party.

[IN1]

Corto81 wrote...

Honestly, I think this post owns this thread.

Honestly, I am not surprised you think so.

[Corto81]

IN1 wrote...

Corto81 wrote...

Honestly, I think this post owns this thread.

Honestly, I am not surprised you think so.

Well, what do you expect?


You decide to make a post about the stuff you say is factual (when most of it isn't), and you basically ignore any arguments from the other side, or reply  with snobby, off-hand comments
("irrelevant" comes to mind. Seriously? "Irrelevant."?????).

If you want to have a discussion about something, it has to be a two-way street and you can't discuss it from an absolutist PoV, otherwise it'll quickly dissolve and turn into something else like with this thread.

[tetracycloide]

IN1 wrote...

I had little experience with the game at that moment: I was wrong. ARW can be dealt with in quite creative (within reasonable limits) ways even when playing solo. Check out my recent Edge of Night build, for example.

I've seen the thread with the ARW video and it's really just a totorial in how to kite the ARW.  You call it doging but they're functionally the same, the objective is to micromanage the players position to avoid damage.  That just doesn't feel like an RPG to me at all.

The only other thing that's really different is you have a spirit weapon and the ARW is weak to spirit.  That's not all that creative but it's an interesting and creative novelty.  Unfortuantly there isn't a spirit based weapon for every class in Act 1.  Melee rogues have nothing in Act 1 as far as I know.  I guss I should post-face all my comments by saying I've only played the game as a rogue which I'll admit is an arbitrary limitation.  Maybe I should have mentioned that earlier.

I guess what it boils down to is my rogue feel super duper useless in DA2.  The DPS is good but the HP pool is small so anything with a point blank AoE attack I have to shoot with a bow (read: pretty much every boss of consequence) and I can't even solo adds.  It's a far cry from the tactical damage dealer the rogue was in DA:O (probably because dex rogues were pretty imbalanced in DA:O though).  I want a happy medium.

Modifié par tetracycloide, 30 avril 2011 - 02:21 .

[Kangaxx628]

Well this thread falls into two categories, a semantic argument about what is and what isn't combat mechanics, i.e. are enemy waves spawning a combat mechanic or game mechanic, and the far sadder category, at least for fans DA:O, the argument about which is the best condiment to add to the excrement sandwich that is DA2 combat. Spicy mustard or chipotle it's still two pieces of bread with excrement in the middle, and therefore unappealing. Are skills slightly less broken in DA2? Perhaps, but that still doesn't change the fact the combat in DA2 is tedious. And whomever thought it was a good idea to have the companions in combat complain about the endless wave of enemies, might want to rethink that strategy.

[Yrkoon]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

DAO/DAA
(1) Extremely easy, to the point of being downright boring.

DA2
(1) The difficulty settings have their issues: the difference between Normal, Hard and NM is reportedly enormous (no first-hand experience with Normal or Hard). However, NM is quite nightmarish, especially on your first playthrough. And that's a good thing for those of us that enjoy challenge. Cooldowns on hp/mana pots are adequate. Fully symmetrical scaling system that may sound idiotic, but, de facto, works much better than DAO/DAA's system. The most challenging NM fight in the game is probably Meredith+Gate Guardians, and that's actually an incredible achievement -- as any experienced RPG player knows, the final bosses are, as a rule, total pushovers due to scaling issues (in other words, party/protagonist getting stronger much faster than the enemies).

*That is not a fact*

The fact is it's different for each person e.g. I find personally DA2 a lot easier than DAO. Just like how my friend couldn't complete a level on Tomb Raider constantly trying day in day out for 3 weeks then I popped around and completed the game for him without dying a single time. There are many more examples of this which I could apply. In reality a) increase HP bar vastly per difficulty add more waves method. It is by far the oldest trick in the book and has been used for more than two decades in gaming. It's not because it is a better system, it's because it's the easiest system to implement. Don't talk about something you don't know with regard to the highlighted aspect above. Until you have tried it all yourself you have no right to say it's harder or easier, if enough people tell you the world is flat doesnt make that true and the same applies to using 3rd hand information regarding difficulty scaling. I will also point out again different people find different things easier or harder.

DAO/DAA
(2) Amateurishly designed, ridiculously unbalanced classes/abilities system. Examples: ridiculously overpowered specializations like Arcane Warrior and DAA Spirit Warrior; pathetically useless specializations like Shapeshifter; Mana Clash (enough said). In a nutshell: Mages, especially AW >>>>>>>> anyone else (DAO); Spirit Warrior Archers >>>>>>>>>> anyone else (DAA).

DA2
(2) A solidly designed classes/abilities system. Yes, it has it flaws (a bit rigid, I admit). And no, it's no D&D. But it is balanced: little to no useless specializations/talents/spells, this time.

First off it was designed by the same people who had spent many years making games most of which for Bioware including working also on DAO as did DA2. The classes in DA2/DAO/DAA are no more balanced than each other, a mage still rapes everything aka (overpowered) when built right and a rogue and warrior do the same. Likewise picking the wrong stats can ruin your class. The same applies for skills. It's all dependant on what you pick and is not balanced because the simple fact is you pick it. Go full Dex and Strength and see how much damage you do with your beloved spells then. Unless they remove the ability to pick stats the classes and skills wont be balanced.

DAO/DAA
(3) The implementation of abilities/item properties in DAO/DAA is a buggy mess. ~30-40% of abilities/item properties either do not function properly, or do not work at all. Examples: abilities/properties that should modify threat do not do this (exceptions: AoS, Walking Bomb, Scattershot, Mind Blast, Cadash Stompers); abilities/properties that should modify attack animation speed either do not do this or do this in a buggy/messy/glitchy way; aura-like abilities stack (Rock Mastery, Rally); Shale and Dog abilities bugged beyond belief (yes, you won't believe what Overwhelm actually does); elemental spells applying states use incorrect resistance checks (Cone of Cold always assumes the target has a physical resistance of -1, for example); +X% healing property on items does nothing; crossbows being unaffected by attributes, thus leaving the whole weapon class totally useless. The list, in fact, is much much much longer.

DA2
(3) The abilities and the properties are correctly implemented in 95% of the cases. Most of the mechanics glitches (Rally not transferring modals; shield armor rating stacking; Lacerate upgrade treated as a separate ability) were fixed in the very first patch. The only really serious bug that persists is the infinitely stacking Healing Aura.

Bringing you some bad news here all 3 titles are as buggy as each other. Most of the 'bugs' are ironed out over time just like DA2 ones will be and DAO/DAA was. Just as examples for DA2 taken from Wikia:

 PC   360   PS3  Haste spell is extremely bugged. Even though it is supposed to be a buff spell, it is affected by your party's magic resistance. So, if your characters have high magic resistance, it will wear off very quickly. [/list]
 PC   360   PS3  Rally talent for Warriors does not correctly extend the benefits of sustained modes to other party members. What this means exactly is unclear, as it was taken from the PC readme file. [/list]
 PC   PS3  Stealth, Decoy, & Invisible Friend, on activation the enemy sometimes is still able to target you and damage you while in stealth. [/list]
 PC  Healing Aura & Panacea (spell) only has their area of effect of 1-2m (roughly estimated from a characters height) regardless of their information claiming 6m. [/list]
 PC  Backstab & Vendetta, when executed against an enemy whose back is to a balcony (or similar area), it is possible to teleport over the balcony. This can result in a character being stuck in a normally inaccessible area. [/list]
 PC  Cone of Cold sometimes the area in which you aim the semi-circle to aim the attack cannot be moved, forcing the user to quit the attack or attack directly in front of the user. [/list]
 360  Auto Attack in combat has a probability that the playable character will simply stop attacking. Witnessed as a rogue. The rogue simply swung their weapons around as they do when they have no target, despite have a clear target, including it's label indicator standing right in front of the rogue. This was corrected by drinking a potion of stamina draught. [/list]
 360  Holy Smite This talent is meant to have an AoE of 8m around the Templar. You can set the tactics for the Templar character to activate if x number of enemies are clustered. This allows the Templar to damage a group of enemies across the battlefield. [/list]
 PS3  Unforgiving Chain's Ring will occasionally remain after combat, appearing over item icons for or dialog icons next to a character's name. This will disappear after re-initiating combat or switching to another character. [/list]
 360  Vengeance When in the quest Night Terrors during Act 2, if you take Anders into the fade and he doesn't[/i] have the sustained ability Vengeance, Justice will[/i] activate it and you can not deactivate it until you get it and deactivate it. Alternatively, activating Panacea will deactivate Vengeance. [/list]
 PS3  Mind Blast will trigger spontaneously for any controlled mage character that knows the spell, even if a different spell was selected from the paused menu. [/list]
 PC   360   PS3  Dog will occasionally not follow the party, instead staying in the last place he moved to during combat. [/list]
 PC   360   PS3  During combat, it happens frequently that any AOE talents or spells is locked at a fixed position and the player cannot cast the talent or spell. This happens very often and unpredictable, which seriously affect combat performance. [/list]
 PC   360   PS3  Regroup Spell by Anders or any means of reviving fallen party members, upon use will occasionally continually regenerate their health as if they are outside of combat. They will not draw weapons unless directed to, and after using a spell or talent, they will revert back to non combat mode. This is often triggered if the revive spell is cast while enemy(s) are stealthed or in the case of the Rock Wraith 'burrowing underground'. [/list]
 PC   PS3  Range Companions that are not being controlled in combat will always take a break between every attack by swinging their weapon around; therefore, reducing their effectiveness by about 50%. [/list]
 PC   PS3  Companions will occasionally stop fighting during combat, or not initiate combat at all. Manually switching to that character and beginning combat, then switching back, will start them fighting. [/list]
 PC   PS3  Companions will ignore "Hold Position" command upon being too far from the controlled character. [/list]
 PC   PS3  After combat some Companions will shout "AH!" or a similar combat noise shortly after combat has finished and the party is moving on. This occurs as a result of Sustainable Skills that are not turned off right after combat. [/list]
 PC  Regroup Spell by Anders when used in Tactics, if a companion falls, it will be used even if Panacea isn't activated. [/list]
 PC  After being revived from KO in mid-combat, companions will sometimes stop following their tactics and will keep re-initializing attack. The problems appears to be solved by either exiting and re-entering combat or by opening and then closing the menu. [/list]
 PC  Tactic Slots with use of item when moved will not be saved correctly after Tactics Menu is closed. Both, left and right parts of tactic-slot will be corrupted. [/list]
 PC  Tactics Slots which were scrolled with mouse scroll will cause other Tactic Slots to lose order and "Conditions for Next Tactics" will lose their targets. [/list]
 PC  The cursor used to interact with an object (doors, quest items...) sometimes will not appear and prevent the player from interacting with the object. Switching characters seems to fix this(NOT always, sometimes only save-load can fix it, or restarting the game). In cases where character portraits are stuck highlighted during this bug, it can frequently be fixed by mousing over the highlighted portrait until it is no longer highlighted. [/list]
 360  During combat, after felling an enemy who was stunned, the enemy, although dead, will still be seen to be staggering in a standing position, though will not attempt to attack the party or exit the stagger to fall to the ground. The only fix seems to be leaving an area and then returning, required if the staggered individual is carrying quest necessary loot. [/list]

DAO/DAA
Overall, I'd say DAO combat is an unplayable buggy mess without third-party modifications/fixes (four official patches do very little to fix the mechanics issues). Now, if you don't care about combat at all, I guess you can play DAO just fine. If you do, good luck installing a dozen conflicting third-party mods.

DA2
Overall, I'd say DA2's gameplay design team work is most commendable. DA2 is a huge improvement over DAO/DAA in all things mechanics-related. And that's not a subjective evaluation. Again, I understand that if you don't care much about combat and find the new plot/dialogue/art direction repulsive, this fact alone won't make DA2 any more acceptable for you.

Dumbest and most insulting comments for the week. There are as many flaws in DA2 combat system as was in DAO/DAA. We are on 2nd patch already for DA2 and there are still vast amounts of bugs/glitches and ones so bad they make it an 'unplayable buggy mess' by your standards you set using DAO/DAA.

Wow!

I'd  give this  post the obligatory   "owned!"  or "Pwned" response, but I don't think cliche internet jargon would do it any credit.  If this exchange  was a Boxing match, the ring doctor would be called in and the fight would be stopped, due to  this  brutal knockout that just sent the poor opponent through the ropes and  out of the ring.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 30 avril 2011 - 02:43 .

[neppakyo]

Yeah.. Dragoonlordz is my internet hero.

[Zlarm]

I'm the first to admit DAO combat had it's problems (as you pointed out AW was completely overpowered while shapeshifting was completely useless, to my dismay), I'd even be willing to admit there might be more combat mechanic problems in DAO then there is in DA2 (although DAO's combat was hardly unplayable- given that millions of players did just that). Overall though I enjoyed DA combat more than I am DA 2.

The main problems is the damn camera, which we were promised could approximate the top down view of Origins and in no way or form actually can. The wave system gets very tiring especially since it happens for a good 80% of the battles. Increasing the difficulty seems to mainly just increase enemy health which is a terrible way to increase difficulty (and one I'll fully admit was present in Origins). And finally there is very little variation in enemies in DA2, meaning the same strategy seems to work for most battles (excluding boss ones).

You may be right that DA2 has less combat mechanic problems than DAO but there are many other problems with combat in DA2 which at least for me make the combat less enjoyable then that of Origins.

[Nightnight]

I simply cannot comprehend why IN1 is defending DA2 so feverishly. Is he an ex-DA2 dev that recently got laid off and have too much free time during his period of unemployment? I cannot imagine even the most zealous of DA2 fans to have this much devotion and time defending a game.

What I am seeing in this thread is 95% of posters vs. IN1. What exactly is IN1's motiviation? Is it the rage built from the butt-hurt from seeing the horrible sale numbers of DA2?

IN1, for your own personal well being, I suggest you to simply shut down your computer and have a nice walk outside. I am sure you will enjoy it.

[IN1]

I simply cannot comprehend why IN1 is defending DA2 so feverishly. Is he an ex-DA2 dev that recently got laid off and have too much free time during his period of unemployment? I cannot imagine even the most zealous of DA2 fans to have this much devotion and time defending a game.

I don't defend a game. I defend a certain, very well-done, aspect of the game. Apparently, I was bribed by, dunno, Gaider to do that -- yeah, right.

What I am seeing in this thread is 95% of posters vs. IN1. What exactly is IN1's motiviation? Is it the rage built from the butt-hurt from seeing the horrible sale numbers of DA2?

Unlike the majority of DA2-haters, I am not motivated by rage. I have nothing to rage about, since I actually like the game. At least, certain aspects of the game.

IN1, for your own personal well being, I suggest you to simply shut down your computer and have a nice walk outside. I am sure you will enjoy it.

Your concern is truly heart-warming

[Warlock of the Wilds]

Holy Nug-Balls!!! There are more DAO superfanboys than I thought possible. DAO was an awesome game... on the PC. I'm a console gamer and I hated that game on the PS3 and Xbox. To me the combat mechanics felt so sluggish and clunky. Half the talents and spells seemed near useless or burried. Except for Mana Clash which was the answer to almost any situation.

DA2 is definately not a perfect game but to me the combat system is way more fun. Abilities that actually work. The animations of spells and different talents look way better. They make the abilities feel more unique. Nothing more satisfying than Crushing Prison's finisher on an Ogre. I also like my companions having their own unique look. I hated it when my rogue ended with the same exact armor set as Zevran.

Ninjas falling out of the skies! So what! It keeps the game more fast paced and you gotta admit it's just plain hilarious. I'm sure on the PC that sucks but on the console it's just great. Assassins one-shotting your mages? That's why the Maker gave us Aveline with her own Guardian spec tree. A fully upgraded Bodyguard and your more frail companions will live to tell the story.

One big DA2 fail to me was the recycling of enviornments. At times it felt like one long De Ja Vu.

I guess it is just a matter of preference. Both games had their pros and cons. I think the system/platform you play on has some impact on which game you like better. To me DA2 on the PC wasn't as fun as on the console and vice versa for DAO. I mainly care about the gameplay and overall feel of the game. To me DA2 delivered better in that area.