494 réponses à ce sujet

[Roxlimn]

Sabriana:

You could actually kill the Arishok in a few if you used Combustion Grenades to stun him, bring the diff down to something reasonable like Hard, and had a good single target nuking build. I believe IN1's DW weapon and shield Rogue build killed NM Arishok in something like 7 seconds or so.

Even without an optimum build, you should be able to kill the Arishok relatively easily and without much kiting on Normal (which you should consider if you're not that familiar with the game systems).

Dalira Montanti:

Combat in DAO didn't feel very DND like other than Warriors had some kind of collision box and behaved in very staid and boring manners. Very like AD&D Warriors. Which were terribad. 3e fixed this somewhat, but Warriors are only really awesome in 4e.

AD&D in retrospect and by modern standards is a mess of a rule system. If you wanted a mess of a system, then I suppose DAO would give you that.

[Kilshrek]

IN1 wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

DA2 has it's share of very broken builds too and depending on the build everything else about the games combat collapses like a house cards.

Care to elaborate? In my experience, the only build that feels cheesy (not broken, mind you, just cheesy) on NM is D&S rogue (see signature). 

Also please quote whoever you're responding to, and I took the time to respond to all your points there. You didn't respond to my saying the waves are a mechanic and they're not a good one. Others.

Modifié par Kilshrek, 25 avril 2011 - 02:55 .

[Alex Kershaw]

DAO is only easy if you go online and research the best possible methods. On a first playthrough, Normal difficulty is actually too difficult. I personally think that Normal is too hard and Nightmare is too easy.

[In Exile]

Alex Kershaw wrote...

DAO is only easy if you go online and research the best possible methods. On a first playthrough, Normal difficulty is actually too difficult. I personally think that Normal is too hard and Nightmare is too easy.

Unless you pick mages, and go for DMG over effects. In which case Morrigain, Wynne, Warden fireball storm will kill anything on nightmare.

[Whisky]

DA:O mage is not overpower at all. Even with a full magic build, fireball/inferno/blizzard do very little damage on Nightmare. AW is just an off tank, he can hardly kill anything before warriors/rogues do. Only Mana Clash is overpower, but don't use it if you don't like it.

I agree that combat in DA2 is a bit harder than it was in Origins, and more annoying too.

Combat mechanics of DA:O is way more buggy, it's true but the idea is good. If they fix the bugs, combat will be better than that of DA2.

[Theagg]

Dormiglione wrote...

Same applies in DA2 if you choose the rogue class. With talents like backstab, twin fang, Inconspicuous the Rogue is the overpowered counterpart of the mage in DAO.

And with 'Assassinate' too this certainly seems to be the case, especially if you use the addmoney script and other console tweaks to equip yourself with lots of juicy equipment you would most likely never be able to afford on a 'real' playthrough, the rogue becomes the only class I have seen on any vid capable of delivering insanely high amounts of damage per hit ( in the 1000's )

Overpowered for sure.

[Sabriana]

Theagg wrote...

Spot on. And this change was purely made to please the crowd who, upon running their player away at right angles from a boulder hurling Ogre, still saw themselves being splatted. Given those players couldn't grasp it was the stats that defined dodging capability and not nifty use of the mouse, they complained en masse. Laidlaw and co obliged and pandered to them.

And the locked down camera view just makes things exceptionally more challenging than they could otherwise be in Nightmare. Again, camera view is part of the mechanic.

I am perfectly aware that the die was cast at a certain point in combat-time, and that my mage could've run all the way to Rivain and still get steam-rolled by the ogre when that point was passed. It was never-the-less still frustrating, and a learning experience. Thanks for the sweeping generalization. Always appreciated.

And agreed on the locked camera factor.

[LeBurns]

Going all the way back to the OP all I can say is that everything he/she said was extremely opinionated. I personally have an opinion that is completely opposite of his/hers in every point. I'm not going to bother listing why, because then we would just spend all day countering each other and to what end? I'm not going to convence him/her nor will my opinion change.

I do however (and this is the reason for this post at all) that the OP would acknowledget that his/her opinion is just that and to many people is completely wrong. But that is ok, right?

Modifié par LeBurns, 25 avril 2011 - 03:08 .

[brownybrown]

IN1,
I get where you are coming from, In combat mechanics da2 is an improvement over DAO.
Some of the people on this thread seem to thing you were defending da2 combat as a whole but I know you weren't . But you would get a lot less flack if you didn't always adopt such a superior attitude and make overreaching statements.

DAO in combat bonuses and +% stuff was pretty buggy but for PC users Combat Tweaks mod fixed that up. That is a problem of implementation not combat theoretical design anyway. I will grant you that DAO had serious balancing issues (ie AW vs Shapeshifter) that have been fixed up with DA2( if by 'fixed' you mean ditched)
As for the whole DAO was easier than DA2 debate, hmm well maybe for players like you who obviously spend a great deal of time learning the ins and outs of the combat mechanism and kite/find mechanical loopholes in the combat mechanics and game the game then it does become easy, almost pathetically so but for the majority of players that may not be the case.

[Embargoed]

Whisky wrote...

DA:O mage is not overpower at all. Even with a full magic build, fireball/inferno/blizzard do very little damage on Nightmare. AW is just an off tank, he can hardly kill anything before warriors/rogues do. Only Mana Clash is overpower, but don't use it if you don't like it.

I agree that combat in DA2 is a bit harder than it was in Origins, and more annoying too.

Combat mechanics of DA:O is way more buggy, it's true but the idea is good. If they fix the bugs, combat will be better than that of DA2.

If you could solo the WHOLE game as an Arcane Warrior, and blow by encounters using AOE spells, then I really doubt mages aren't overpowered. Also, why should I have to make a game diffcult for myself by FORCING myself NOT to use skills and talents that are right there, then there's a problem here. 

[FedericoV]

Sabriana wrote...

@ FedericoV

Both of your posts are well thought out and well put. I agree with a lot of your points. Indeed, mechanic-wise DA 2 is quite fine, but even the best mechanics are useless if they don't work in conjunction with the whole combat set-up. That's were DA 2 fails to deliver, and DA:O doesn't, imo.

DA:O is far from perfect, the combat is too slow, afaic, especially in the 2h dept. For the life of me, I couldn't put a good 2h build together, no matter what I tried. And my mage getting totally flattened by an ogre who passed the spot she was standing in before she scattered all the way to the other end of the room had me hissing at my monitor.

First of all: thanks for the open minded attitude. Having said that: if combat fails or not as a whole is a matter of point of view. Personally, while a little bored during act 3, I was pretty happy with DA2 combat system even if I saw the flaws. While I was extremely bored by DA:O's combat and I could not even finish the game if it wasn't for its briliant roleplaying. The idea to play again the deep roads frightens me. So, no redeeming factor in DA:O's combat for me, while I see the potential in DA2 if they work upon the actual mechanics while solving the other issues. But I respect your view and I admit that my opinion is subjective if we judge combat as a whole.

However, all the mechanics in the world didn't stop me from getting utterly frustrated and bored in the Arishok one on one. My bow and arrow rogue did nothing but run, summon dog, gulp potions, got off a few shots, ran again, summoned dog again, gulped some more potions, ad infinitum. It was mind-numbing to say the least.

But the duel with Loghain was boring/stupid too if you do not play a warrior or a DW rogue. I mean, the problem here is the duel itself. As I said in another thread: the rule system is party based. It's fair that it doesn't work in another context like a one-to-one duel (especially for the non melee class). Mind, the error is Bioware's. If you want a cinematic duel, it would have been better a minigame based on QTE that uses different rules than that kiting failure that we have right now. Otherwise, no duel at all: just another boss fight that play to the current system.

In the same manner, all the best mechanics in all the world of gaming didn't stop me from getting utterly frustrated at the poor companion AI. Either my game is hopelessly bugged, or the AI is simply not well developed. They very often did not obey their tactics, or a hold command. I know hold goes off if the PC is at a certain distance, but they didn't even heed it when the PC was standing next to them.

Well, I must admit that I'm a micromanage "****". I issue each and every command and so I rarely have the occasion to observe the fallacy of the AI system. But even here, I assume that it's not so different than any other previous game, DA:O counted in. I became a micromanage **** not because of enjoyement but because I was never happy with AI systems in RPGs.

Modifié par FedericoV, 25 avril 2011 - 03:19 .

[Sabriana]

@ Embargoed

Why bother with NM if you simply want to exploit game weaknesses and do quick mass-wipes?

I like building up my fighters in to try and achieve the ultimate set-up. When I found that mages were too overpowered after a certain point, I usually left them behind quite often (unless I grossly miscalculated and had to drag her butt home after her and her party of misfits were wiped time and again)

I enjoy planning and setting up tactics. I enjoy scouting ahead for bottlenecks, trap-setting, etc. I enjoy thinking of ways to out-smart, out-flank, out-everything my adversaries.

My favorite team was 3 rogues 1 tank. I left the mages home on purpose because at that time they were the equivalent of neuron bombs.

Modifié par Sabriana, 25 avril 2011 - 03:18 .

[In Exile]

Whisky wrote...

DA:O mage is not overpower at all. Even with a full magic build, fireball/inferno/blizzard do very little damage on Nightmare.

That's because those abilities are **** beside fireball. Winter's Grasp, Lightning, Shock, Chan Lightning, Cone of Cold and Arcane Bolt are the basic good spells.

Plus the bloodmage tree.

A good DA:O mage will use blood magic to fuel sustains (spell might and spell wisp) so you can boost spellpower by a tremendous amount. The cooldown is short enough and lyrium/healing (via SH/BM) is so abundant that you can create an infinite mana battery.

If you want huge damage you need to combo Storm of the Century, but that's just cheese level.

AW is just an off tank, he can hardly kill anything before warriors/rogues do. Only Mana Clash is overpower, but don't use it if you don't like it.

The real strength of AW IMO is to put on armour on a DMG mage build which with rock armour can make you unkillable. Adding a sword or taking any spells in the tree is a waste, IMO.

Modifié par In Exile, 25 avril 2011 - 03:21 .

[AkiKishi]

Embargoed wrote...
If you could solo the WHOLE game as an Arcane Warrior, and blow by encounters using AOE spells, then I really doubt mages aren't overpowered. Also, why should I have to make a game diffcult for myself by FORCING myself NOT to use skills and talents that are right there, then there's a problem here. 

Same reason you finish FFV at level 7, because you can. RPGs with builds have always had this sort of issue back to the ever popular Kensai/Mage of BG2. My personal handicap is not using extra items, but I hardly miss them most of the time anyway.

Once a game gets too easy I usually abandon the play. Like with the Vanguard in ME2.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 25 avril 2011 - 03:25 .

[In Exile]

Sabriana wrote...

@ Embargoed

Why bother with NM if you simply want to exploit game weaknesses and do quick mass-wipes?

I RP. Lore wise, mages killed and my Warden was a Mage. So I travelled with mages.

I like building up my fighters in to try and achieve the ultimate set-up. When I found that mages were too overpowered after a certain point, I usually left them behind quite often (unless I grossly miscalculated and had to drag her butt home after her and her party of misfits were wiped time and again)

Warriors can be murder too. Dex builds can be unhittable and 2H can cause insane amounts of dmg, they are just boring to play because of the micromanagement needed (at least, IMO).

I enjoy planning and setting up tactics. I enjoy scouting ahead for bottlenecks, trap-setting, etc. I enjoy thinking of ways to out-smart, out-flank, out-everything my adversaries.

That would be fun if the enemies used tactics, but they're unmovable dmg blocks with huge HP, in DA:O and DA2.

[Whisky]

Embargoed wrote...

If you could solo the WHOLE game as an Arcane Warrior, and blow by encounters using AOE spells, then I really doubt mages aren't overpowered. Also, why should I have to make a game diffcult for myself by FORCING myself NOT to use skills and talents that are right there, then there's a problem here. 

Yes you could. But it would take forever to bring down a single enemy because AWs have terrible hit rate. This is a party based rpg, play a party with a warrior or a rogue and you'll see that AW doesn't do much.

Not using Mana Clash doesn't make the game more difficult. And using it just makes the game more fun. It can only kill casters anyway, and there are not many mages out there to kill.

Oh and enemy mages can cast Mana Clash too. I guess that makes them overpowered?

[veramis]

Getting interrupted or knocked back in nightmare is very irritating. Surely some of you who played nightmare have seen Anders flying around like a ragdoll in his first quest? I did two full DA2 nightmare playthroughs and put up with the broken game mechanics hoping to see if it was fun enough to warrant the challenge, and simply I don't consider combat fun in da2. Being able to run faster than enemies just invites kiting, and spawning invites pulling to avoid spawns, and if you choose not to pull the constant spawning it makes it hard for your warrior to taunt enemies since taunt has a very long cooldown. When you aren't psychic or haven't rehearsed battles, you can easily get wiped out when playing nightmare. Again in nightmare, there is much need for constant pausing for 90% of fights to make sure your nontanks aren't getting destroyed by sudden spawns. To top it off, difficulty keeps changing fight to fight, some have insane amounts of spawns that simply can't be beat in nightmare without resorting to cheap moves.

I don't think DAO's combat is perfect, but it was flexible, you could approach it with many different strategies. DA2 is just like whackamole, you have to whack the moles really fast or you get overwhelmed with spawns, and this timed spawning really makes it paramount to remove as many enemies as possible before the next wave, limiting the way you do combat to trying to kill as fast as possible.

[Roxlimn]

Whisky:

The hit rate wasn't terrible at all. Didn't you use the other support spells? The way I defeated the Archdemon as an AW was to write a potion-chugging script for the Warden, turn on the sustains and then read a book. Worked quite well. In fact, this worked remarkably well for many encounters. The only reason I didn't do that all the time was because SotC just worked so much faster.

[Must have name]

I've got to disagree.

For RPG newbiess, DA:O's combat is reasonably hard. Another thing is increasing the difficulty up to Nightmare geniunly does increase the challenge. You can't get away being careless and you have to think your way out of situations. My experience of DA2's nightmare however was that it was all about learning when reinforcements would appear, and CC'ing assassins before they reached you. That was it. Meanwhile, normal was "Push R to win".

Honestly, class balance is far better in DA2, but that's about it. Personally, class balance doesn't even matter that much in a single player game anyway. Mages being overpowered in the first game didn't make much of a difference. If you didn't want to use Mana Clash or run an Arcane Warrior, don't!

Modifié par Must have name, 25 avril 2011 - 03:43 .

[Whisky]

Roxlimn wrote...

The hit rate wasn't terrible at all. Didn't you use the other support spells? The way I defeated the Archdemon as an AW was to write a potion-chugging script for the Warden, turn on the sustains and then read a book. Worked quite well. In fact, this worked remarkably well for many encounters. The only reason I didn't do that all the time was because SotC just worked so much faster.

The Archdemon fight is actually eaiser than most fights, but I see your point though. And SotC is the ultimate AoE, it is supposed to be powerful after all.

[Roxlimn]

Yes, clearly that justifies having an AoE in the game that obviates the tactical game completely for all difficulty settings.

[AngryFrozenWater]

The talent trees (not the talents themselves) are just as useless in DA2 than those in DA:O. The idea behind the DA2 talent trees was to remove the linear aspect that forced you to select talents you don't need, just to get the ones you do want. It turns out that the DA2 trees work just the same. Here is why. You cannot select any talent you like, because you have to follow the route in the tree. So you still may need to get talents you don't need. Some talents are blocked until you reach a certain level. That's OK for powerful talents. Some talents require you to get a given number of other talents before the one you want becomes available. A lot of talents require updates before they become really useful. Those upgrades require the same selection method described above. All in all, the new talent system is just as good or bad as the old one.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 25 avril 2011 - 04:27 .

[IN1]

I'm thinking of reporting him, but I'm going to wait and see what happens later on this thread.

Yes, yes, report me to FBI and Interpol, please!  Better still, ask DG to ban me.

[Whisky]

Roxlimn wrote...

Yes, clearly that justifies having an AoE in the game that obviates the tactical game completely for all difficulty settings.

Ugh, no. Try the SotC in normal fights, enemies will just leave your tank for your mages. And it takes pretty long to kill every enemies with SotC, the damage is not that big.

But I assure you, mages in every game are powerful. And every game has an overpowerd class, be it mage or not. I think it's impossible to have a perfectly balanced game.

[Roxlimn]

Whisky:

SotC has a huge, huge area. Generally, I cast it a long, long way away where the enemies will have to wade through the huge AoE to get to my party, which is equipped with all-ranged weapons so as to pick off the guys who aren't keeling over by themselves.

So yes, I actually ROFLstomped through most of the normal fights using SotC.