494 réponses à ce sujet

[IN1]

Roxlimn wrote...
AD&D in retrospect and by modern standards is a mess of a rule system. If you wanted a mess of a system, then I suppose DAO would give you that.

Well, to be fair, a vast majority of AD&D weaknesses was fixed more than a decade ago, in D&D 3rd Ed., mostly thanks to young talented designers like Monte Cook.

Essentially, I also disagree about AD&D being a mess of a rule system. It was clumsy and behemoth-like, sure enough. But, at the same time, very logical and mathematical. Given the vast amount of rule supplements and the fact you should have been playing under an experienced moderator's (=DM's) supervision, its flaws were less acute than they may seem in retrospect. 

Modifié par IN1, 25 avril 2011 - 05:20 .

[Roxlimn]

IN1:

I played AD&D back in the day. The flaws I mentioned are NOT retrospective. They were experienced firsthand. The only way the rules would make any kind of sense was if your DM had enough sense to ignore most of it and just rule the way he wanted most of the time.

Don't even get me started on Unearthed Arcana.

[IN1]

Kilshrek wrote...

IN1 wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

DA2 has it's share of very broken builds too and depending on the build everything else about the games combat collapses like a house cards.

Care to elaborate? In my experience, the only build that feels cheesy (not broken, mind you, just cheesy) on NM is D&S rogue (see signature). 

Also please quote whoever you're responding to, and I took the time to respond to all your points there. You didn't respond to my saying the waves are a mechanic and they're not a good one. Others.

"Broken" is not synonymous with "buggy". 

I'm glad you took time to reply to my points, but, sincerely, I don't see how does it oblige me to do the same Pray excuse me if I have more urgent business than to discuss is with you for hours. If you expect a personal treatment, pm me. Simple as that.

I have no problems with wave mechanic. It's tedious at times, but more often than not, the sheer quantity of lower-rank enemies makes the fights quite challenging. Waves have a spawn timer and fixed spawn trigger conditions. The amount of creatures spawning is finite (and easily calculated, once you know the rules). So no, I don't find it outrageously unpredictable.

[IN1]

Roxlimn wrote...

IN1:

I played AD&D back in the day. The flaws I mentioned are NOT retrospective. They were experienced firsthand. The only way the rules would make any kind of sense was if your DM had enough sense to ignore most of it and just rule the way he wanted most of the time.

Don't even get me started on Unearthed Arcana.

Heh, UA was very hit-and-miss, true Some of the big campaign settings were elegantly designed, though (Ravenloft, parts of Dark Sun). I also happen to think highly of Complete class Handbooks.

[Shirosaki17]

Did Laidlaw and Gaider really ask you to post this, or is that just a joke?

[Roxlimn]

Are you referring to the same handbooks that had broken spells and awful martial arts tables?

[IN1]

Shirosaki17 wrote...

Did Laidlaw and Gaider really ask you to post this, or is that just a joke?

I've used the hyperbolic expressions like 'made me', 'tortured me', etc., to make sure no one is fooled. It goes without saying it's a joke. People seem to love threads mentioning Mike  

[IN1]

Roxlimn wrote...

Are you referring to the same handbooks that had broken spells and awful martial arts tables?

Oh boy! I'm afraid to hear your verdict regarding psionics!  

[AngryFrozenWater]

Here are some elements I miss from DA:O (and I am using the PC version, BTW): In DA2 you can prevent the companions moving, but you cannot prevent the companions fighting. In DA:O you could use the "select all" button and they stopped attacking until you gave them specific orders or unselected them. Those manual orders were executed one by one and required you to be specific (which I often found useful). In DA2 you can still select all, but that does not do much (other than allow to select a single target) and they keep fighting. Another reason why this is important: If you want them to wait without attaching (and prevent them from using their stamina/mana) then the ranged companions still attack. Some other points about DA2: In general it is very hard to have control where your companions go, because they tend to jump all over the battlefield. Especially rogues. It is even worse if you play a rogue yourself. I then feel like a frog jumping all over the place and get dizzy doing so. Ghehe. But what's more, all the above in combination with the swarms and the lack of tactical view make tactical combat nearly impossible. It feels like I fight health bars with a random number generator. So I am not happy at all with these changes.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 25 avril 2011 - 05:20 .

[Theagg]

Sabriana wrote...

Theagg wrote...

Spot on. And this change was purely made to please the crowd who, upon running their player away at right angles from a boulder hurling Ogre, still saw themselves being splatted. Given those players couldn't grasp it was the stats that defined dodging capability and not nifty use of the mouse, they complained en masse. Laidlaw and co obliged and pandered to them.

And the locked down camera view just makes things exceptionally more challenging than they could otherwise be in Nightmare. Again, camera view is part of the mechanic.

I am perfectly aware that the die was cast at a certain point in combat-time, and that my mage could've run all the way to Rivain and still get steam-rolled by the ogre when that point was passed. It was never-the-less still frustrating, and a learning experience. Thanks for the sweeping generalization. Always appreciated.

And agreed on the locked camera factor.

Well, if you read the forums last year, there were many comments bemoaning exactly that which I am referring to, in that manner, ie

"Why is it my Warden gets hit even when they have run out of the way, that's not realisitic." ( ergo they seemed to not understand the animations were representative, not actual ) Loads of comments like that, with a corresponding number effectively asking that be changed in DA2. And cheering when they learned that they would indeed be able to 'dodge' blows via use of clicky mouse moves.

[Sabriana]

@ Theagg

I never complained about that over at the DA:O forum(s). I was quite capable of figuring it out after getting my squishies wiped a few times. Up until then, it was frustrating for me. Personally. Imo.

I thought you were targeting my earlier post in this thread specifically. If you did not, I apologize for jumping to conclusions.

[In Exile]

Theagg wrote...
"Why is it my Warden gets hit even when they have run out of the way, that's not realisitic." ( ergo they seemed to not understand the animations were representative, not actual ) Loads of comments like that, with a corresponding number effectively asking that be changed in DA2. And cheering when they learned that they would indeed be able to 'dodge' blows via use of clicky mouse moves.

The problem is that you can't have (IMO) non-turn based hex combat and then try and keep it purely dice driven. Once you allow things like free movement and real-time (but with pause) combat, you have to allow for some basic features of reality like collision detection.

[IN1]

In Exile wrote...

Theagg wrote...
"Why is it my Warden gets hit even when they have run out of the way, that's not realisitic." ( ergo they seemed to not understand the animations were representative, not actual ) Loads of comments like that, with a corresponding number effectively asking that be changed in DA2. And cheering when they learned that they would indeed be able to 'dodge' blows via use of clicky mouse moves.

The problem is that you can't have (IMO) non-turn based hex combat and then try and keep it purely dice driven. Once you allow things like free movement and real-time (but with pause) combat, you have to allow for some basic features of reality like collision detection.

^ Very good point.

[AkiKishi]

In Exile wrote...

Theagg wrote...
"Why is it my Warden gets hit even when they have run out of the way, that's not realisitic." ( ergo they seemed to not understand the animations were representative, not actual ) Loads of comments like that, with a corresponding number effectively asking that be changed in DA2. And cheering when they learned that they would indeed be able to 'dodge' blows via use of clicky mouse moves.

The problem is that you can't have (IMO) non-turn based hex combat and then try and keep it purely dice driven. Once you allow things like free movement and real-time (but with pause) combat, you have to allow for some basic features of reality like collision detection.

This is one of the key differences between RPG combat and action adventure combat. In action adventure combat what you see is what you get. In RPG combat it's representative of the behind the scenes "dice rolling".

The more you go into aracade/adventure territory the more the player skill becomes more of a factor than the character skill.

[IN1]

Gotholhorakh wrote...

just because you can be a douchebag on the internet without anyone punching you in the face

Ah, I've just unearthed another funny comment.

So, I take it it's your usual habit to punch people not sharing your opinion (like in: most definitely not sharing your opinion) in the face?

[IN1]

BobSmith101 wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Theagg wrote...
"Why is it my Warden gets hit even when they have run out of the way, that's not realisitic." ( ergo they seemed to not understand the animations were representative, not actual ) Loads of comments like that, with a corresponding number effectively asking that be changed in DA2. And cheering when they learned that they would indeed be able to 'dodge' blows via use of clicky mouse moves.

The problem is that you can't have (IMO) non-turn based hex combat and then try and keep it purely dice driven. Once you allow things like free movement and real-time (but with pause) combat, you have to allow for some basic features of reality like collision detection.

This is one of the key differences between RPG combat and action adventure combat. In action adventure combat what you see is what you get. In RPG combat it's representative of the behind the scenes "dice rolling".

The more you go into aracade/adventure territory the more the player skill becomes more of a factor than the character skill.

Arguable. If we are talking CRPG, not just faithful pen-and-paper emulations, I'm sure you can name at least half a dozen hybrid systems yourself.

[neppakyo]

Filament wrote...

Captain Sassy Pants wrote...

Filament wrote...

They set you up, IN1. They threw you to the wolves. They will feast on your tears as you lie defeated by trolls, a shattered husk of a man. Look in their eyes and see the soul of cold-blooded betrayal.

How will he be defeated by trolls, when he is trolling?

But he's not, he's just arguing a point this forum is unaccustomed to being challenged on.

But he will be defeated when despite his reasoned arguments everyone dismisses him as a troll anyway, and then his mind shatters, his face melts off and his children weep over his exploded body.

Oh, you mean he was in DA2 too?

[In Exile]

BobSmith101 wrote...
This is one of the key differences between RPG combat and action adventure combat. In action adventure combat what you see is what you get. In RPG combat it's representative of the behind the scenes "dice rolling".

The more you go into aracade/adventure territory the more the player skill becomes more of a factor than the character skill.

I'm aware of what an RPG is. I'm saying that as a design choice, once you move away from turn-based hex and act as if what you see on the screen is what you get, it's rage-inducing to have dice rolls decide actions while the game pretends that you can control it in real-time.

You create an expectation that physical laws (which are intutiive to us) will be obeyed instead of approximations and then you violate that. I fully support keeping player skill independent, but then it has to be done well. In a turn based game, if I keep my character out of the range of a character, it won't get attacked. In Origins, I could have my character on the other side of the room; if I was too slow (i.e. twich based) to move my character before an animation started, then I got hit.

That's poor execution, especially since distance did matter in DA:O and you could avoid attacks based on physical proximity or obstacles.

Modifié par In Exile, 25 avril 2011 - 05:45 .

[IN1]

neppakyo wrote...

Filament wrote...

Captain Sassy Pants wrote...

Filament wrote...

They set you up, IN1. They threw you to the wolves. They will feast on your tears as you lie defeated by trolls, a shattered husk of a man. Look in their eyes and see the soul of cold-blooded betrayal.

How will he be defeated by trolls, when he is trolling?

But he's not, he's just arguing a point this forum is unaccustomed to being challenged on.

But he will be defeated when despite his reasoned arguments everyone dismisses him as a troll anyway, and then his mind shatters, his face melts off and his children weep over his exploded body.

Oh, you mean he was in DA2 too?

Yes, yes, you are so perceptive and witty! I am just another exploding body animation designed by evil Laidlaw and Gaider, that just keep insulting honest fans like yourself by trying to -- how do you love to put it? -- cater to brainless console-user masses!!! 

[neppakyo]

IN1 wrote...

neppakyo wrote...

Filament wrote...

Captain Sassy Pants wrote...

Filament wrote...

They set you up, IN1. They threw you to the wolves. They will feast on your tears as you lie defeated by trolls, a shattered husk of a man. Look in their eyes and see the soul of cold-blooded betrayal.

How will he be defeated by trolls, when he is trolling?

But he's not, he's just arguing a point this forum is unaccustomed to being challenged on.

But he will be defeated when despite his reasoned arguments everyone dismisses him as a troll anyway, and then his mind shatters, his face melts off and his children weep over his exploded body.

Oh, you mean he was in DA2 too?

Yes, yes, you are so perceptive and witty! I am just another exploding body animation designed by evil Laidlaw and Gaider, that just keep insulting honest fans like yourself by trying to -- how do you love to put it? -- cater to brainless console-user masses!!! 

I quite like Gaider. Laidlaw is a bit useless imho. And that was in reference towards the exploding body comment.

You sound a bit bittersaucey.

[IN1]

You sound a bit bittersaucey.

<3

[Firky]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Firky wrote...

^ (I'm usually very nice) But what a bunch of crap. The reinforcements are great. I'm as old school as it gets, and I have no probs with repositioning on the fly.

Also, I've been replaying bits of the game on NM with contrasting parties just to try it out. The flexibility within party build is unparalleled in a party based RPG. You can take down a whole bunch of Sharps Highwaymen with Isabella flitting around causing horrendous damage, or with 2mages/2warriors doing CCCs or whatever.

There is no one optimal route.

You were the one complaining that you were getting your ass kicked on nightmare.

Unless you are getting your ass kicked equally then this is clearly not 100% accurate.

 

More or less equally, yes. Bit I am noticing times when certain companions are more useful.

Not complaining. Enjoying. (Or, why would I bother?)

[Theagg]

In Exile wrote...

Theagg wrote...
"Why is it my Warden gets hit even when they have run out of the way, that's not realisitic." ( ergo they seemed to not understand the animations were representative, not actual ) Loads of comments like that, with a corresponding number effectively asking that be changed in DA2. And cheering when they learned that they would indeed be able to 'dodge' blows via use of clicky mouse moves.

The problem is that you can't have (IMO) non-turn based hex combat and then try and keep it purely dice driven. Once you allow things like free movement and real-time (but with pause) combat, you have to allow for some basic features of reality like collision detection.

But then, of course, how far do you take that ? The combat is certainly no more realistic now, even allowing for that. ( having swapped the afformentioned for mouse/controller based dodging, we now have hyperspeed combat movements for example )

[Theagg]

Sabriana wrote...

@ Theagg

I never complained about that over at the DA:O forum(s). I was quite capable of figuring it out after getting my squishies wiped a few times. Up until then, it was frustrating for me. Personally. Imo.

I thought you were targeting my earlier post in this thread specifically. If you did not, I apologize for jumping to conclusions.

Apology accepted and no, I wasn't targeting you. And yep, glad to see you find the locked camera a real pain too. It makes for many problems, not just the targeting of AoE effects.

In fact, I get the impression the camera view was locked down with the easier game modes in mind, then they conveniently forget that when playing nightmare its a major failing.