494 réponses à ce sujet

[Embargoed]

If you're going to have a real-time combat system, then why have all of this "approximation" business anyway? The system of simply moving to dodge attacks was pretty useful in DA2 IMO. That's not because I don't like rpgs or whatever, it's simply because it's annoying, not to mention stupid, that moving away from enemies doesn't allow me to dodge their attacks.

My 2-Hander doesn't need that, considering he just smashes waves to pieces, but my Rogue used that ability to the fullest, kiting the ever living **** out of the Arishok while tossing combustion grenades and backstabbing like a motherlover.

One thing that seems to be anathema to a lot of people here is that we can't allow for a hybridization of any genre, lest that genre lose what made it special. If making the combat suck less, by which I mean the homing melee attacks, means turning the game into more of an adventure game, then by all means BioWare, streamline away; so long as your streamline-scalpel cuts only small incisions into my game and not huge swathes from it.

[neppakyo]

Embargoed wrote...
... turning the game into more of an adventure game, then by all means BioWare, streamline away; so long as your streamline-scalpel cuts only small incisions into my game and not huge swathes from it.

The problem is, they tend to take the chainsaw approach than the scalpel.

[IN1]

Theagg wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Theagg wrote...
"Why is it my Warden gets hit even when they have run out of the way, that's not realisitic." ( ergo they seemed to not understand the animations were representative, not actual ) Loads of comments like that, with a corresponding number effectively asking that be changed in DA2. And cheering when they learned that they would indeed be able to 'dodge' blows via use of clicky mouse moves.

The problem is that you can't have (IMO) non-turn based hex combat and then try and keep it purely dice driven. Once you allow things like free movement and real-time (but with pause) combat, you have to allow for some basic features of reality like collision detection.

But then, of course, how far do you take that ? The combat is certainly no more realistic now, even allowing for that. ( having swapped the afformentioned for mouse/controller based dodging, we now have hyperspeed combat movements for example )

Off-topic. Theagg, take no offense, please, but I have to ask this: why do you consistenty put space before exclamation/interrogation marks, as well as after parenthesis? That produces a weird effect, since your punctuation and orthography are remarkably good. I'm a professional linguist, so I get irritated by things that most people don't even notice, sorry 

[brazen_nl]

The French do that, for instance. As a Brit, he will love that. :innocent:

Modifié par brazen_nl, 25 avril 2011 - 07:19 .

[IN1]

brazen_nl wrote...

The French do that, for instance. As a Brit, he will love that. :innocent:

Well, they don't do it in academic publications. Anyway, it's as odd as seeing a Spanish-speaking person apply principio y fin de interrogación to English sentence. ¿Right?

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

Yrkoon wrote...

IN1 wrote...
 
DAO/DAA:

(1) Extremely easy, to the point of being downright boring. You can literally fall asleep during late game fights. .

I stopped reading at about  here.

I was promised  cold had facts, only to see   a hyperbole-riddled subjective opinion tossed at me as the very first point being made.

That's a pet peeve of mine.  And you nailed it right away.  Good job.

Yes, agreed. Putting a personal spin on half-truths does not yield towards unbiased, objective debate.

I did keep reading though just because it provided a laugh.

Both games have alot of balance issues and flaws with combat which make them quickly repetative to alot of players. By limiting the types of skills and limiting the abilities of classes did Bioware really fix anything? I do not think they did. But judging from prior comments made in this thread, I am doubting that posting technical details will lead toward any kind of decent debate on the matters.

[In Exile]

Theagg wrote...
But then, of course, how far do you take that ? The combat is certainly no more realistic now, even allowing for that. ( having swapped the afformentioned for mouse/controller based dodging, we now have hyperspeed combat movements for example )

Personally, I'd go back to hex based and turn based combat. But I don't think I'll get my wish, so instead, I'd rather that physical distance matter, but the same rules apply to the PC and the NPCs. None of this 10,000 HP enemies and 100 HP PCs.

[brazen_nl]

IN1 wrote...

brazen_nl wrote...

The French do that, for instance. As a Brit, he will love that. :innocent:

Well, they don't do it in academic publications. Anyway, it's as odd as seeing a Spanish-speaking person apply principio y fin de interrogación to English sentence. ¿Right?

I don't know about acedemic publications, but having had most of L'Oréal's customers in our portfolio as well as Walt Disney, they do use it like that in their advertising and on their displays.

Si quieres hablar en Castellano, he trabajado en Madrid por trés años.

EDIT: See here: http://corporate.dis...gas/index.xhtml

Modifié par brazen_nl, 25 avril 2011 - 08:02 .

[Tantum Dic Verbo]

In Exile wrote...

Theagg wrote...
But then, of course, how far do you take that ? The combat is certainly no more realistic now, even allowing for that. ( having swapped the afformentioned for mouse/controller based dodging, we now have hyperspeed combat movements for example )

Personally, I'd go back to hex based and turn based combat. But I don't think I'll get my wish, so instead, I'd rather that physical distance matter, but the same rules apply to the PC and the NPCs. None of this 10,000 HP enemies and 100 HP PCs.

To do that, we'd have to see game designs that don't rehash old-school D&D mechanics, though.  Are we ready for anything that iconoclastic?

[IN1]

brazen_nl wrote...

IN1 wrote...

brazen_nl wrote...

The French do that, for instance. As a Brit, he will love that. :innocent:

Well, they don't do it in academic publications. Anyway, it's as odd as seeing a Spanish-speaking person apply principio y fin de interrogación to English sentence. ¿Right?

I don't know about acedemic publications, but having had most of L'Oréal's customers in our portfolio as well as Walt Disney, they do use it like that in their advertising and on their displays.

Si quieres hablar en Castellano, he trabajado en Madrid por trés años.

EDIT: See here: http://corporate.dis...gas/index.xhtml

Very interesting, indeed. Oh, and my native language is Russian 

[fchopin]

To op...

Stop using developer names to make a point, if Mr Laidlaw or Mr Gaider wish to post they are free to do so.

I will not even bother to read the rest of your post.

Modifié par fchopin, 25 avril 2011 - 08:14 .

[IN1]

I did keep reading though just because it provided a laugh.

Laugh it up, princess, as David Gaider would have probably put it 

[gotthammer]

Tantum Dic Verbo wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Theagg wrote...
But then, of course, how far do you take that ? The combat is certainly no more realistic now, even allowing for that. ( having swapped the afformentioned for mouse/controller based dodging, we now have hyperspeed combat movements for example )

Personally, I'd go back to hex based and turn based combat. But I don't think I'll get my wish, so instead, I'd rather that physical distance matter, but the same rules apply to the PC and the NPCs. None of this 10,000 HP enemies and 100 HP PCs.

To do that, we'd have to see game designs that don't rehash old-school D&D mechanics, though.  Are we ready for anything that iconoclastic?

WFRP's system, please!
(gotta love the critical damage chart: shattered limbs? decapitation? instant death? from one blow? see...gritty )

[IN1]

fchopin wrote...

Stop using developer names to make a point, if Mr Laidlaw or Mr Gaider wish to post they are free to do so.

I will not even bother to read the rest of your post.

That's a very constructive approach. Your comment also demonstrates how subtle, perceptive, and sensitive to irony you are 

Modifié par IN1, 25 avril 2011 - 08:15 .

[brazen_nl]

IN1 wrote...

brazen_nl wrote...

IN1 wrote...

brazen_nl wrote...

The French do that, for instance. As a Brit, he will love that. :innocent:

Well, they don't do it in academic publications. Anyway, it's as odd as seeing a Spanish-speaking person apply principio y fin de interrogación to English sentence. ¿Right?

I don't know about acedemic publications, but having had most of L'Oréal's customers in our portfolio as well as Walt Disney, they do use it like that in their advertising and on their displays.

Si quieres hablar en Castellano, he trabajado en Madrid por trés años.

EDIT: See here: http://corporate.dis...gas/index.xhtml

Very interesting, indeed. Oh, and my native language is Russian 

I agree that it's irritating though, but not as irritating as spaces around a colon.

I know some Russian, but, I can't put it into words.

[tmp7704]

IN1 wrote...

Fully symmetrical scaling system that may sound idiotic, but, de facto, works much better than DAO/DAA's system.

What do you mean by "fully symmetrical scaling"?

regarding difficulty, my personal feedback for Hard mode would be: the only time the game was even remotely challenging was at the very early levels, during the first year in Kirkwall and that's only because i'd choose to travel around only with Hawke (mage with unupgraded heal) and Carver for rp purposes. The final fight was definitely not the hardest fight in the game -- in fact, both during that fight and the other boss shortly before it my team was barely taking any damage to speak of. What damage was coming their way was easily covered by basic mage heal.

On side note, aside from possibly the NM mode DA2 is on purpose made to be quite easier than DAO -- the Hard level is roughly on par with DAO Normal. What happens at the far end of difficulty curve may be another story, but that's extreme rather than the game overall, and one not many players will experience. So if your complaint with DAO is "it's so easy it's boring" ... well, that's how the bulk of the players is going to experience DA2. I'm not sure if that makes DA2 a better game, by your own standards.

[brazen_nl]

It surprises me how many people have a grudge against DA2. I have to agree about the storyline, but this post is about the combat system. I also find it way better than what DAO had to offer. Mind you, I still play DAO and started my umpteenth play-trough not too long ago, but that's because the storyline is so compelling. In that respect, I find DAO miles ahead of DA2.

[IN1]

tmp7704 wrote...

IN1 wrote...

Fully symmetrical scaling system that may sound idiotic, but, de facto, works much better than DAO/DAA's system.

What do you mean by "fully symmetrical scaling"?

Enemy and items auto-scale up to party level. DAO handled scaling in a totally different way. In a nutshell: every area had a minimum and a maximum level. For example, Orzammar's min was 10, so if you were trying to beat those mercenaries at Orzammar's gate at level 7... Yeah, tough luck. Moreover, G. Zoeller decided (the rationale was: nothing is as frustrating as seeing a level 1 rat magically grown to level 20 when you come back to the same area end-game) creature level should stay fixed once the area have been loaded for the first time. Which means you could visit the area at 7, immediately leave it, then come back at 15 and stomp some level 7 enemies.

Modifié par IN1, 25 avril 2011 - 08:31 .

[In Exile]

Tantum Dic Verbo wrote...
To do that, we'd have to see game designs that don't rehash old-school D&D mechanics, though.  Are we ready for anything that iconoclastic?

We're at mimicking WOW and are going to be stuck there for quite some time. I'm not optimistic about true turn-based combat ever coming back.

[tmp7704]

IN1 wrote...

Enemy and items auto-scale up to party level.

Ah. Yeah, i know how the DAO scaling worked. I can't say i've noticed any practical difference between DAO and DA2 in this regard, then. Maybe because i never bothered with the "visit early, come back later" approach in DAO, and since as you point out yourself the game isn't exactly hard it made only minor impact when the enemies i'd face were initially few levels tougher than my own party... in fact, the minor variations of difficulty it'd potentially cause was something i'd consider a plus, rather than a drawback.

[Haexpane]

IN1 wrote...

Mike tortured me, in fact. And I forgot to mention that David Gaider assisted him.

Now, seriously. I know DA2 is a bit controversial. I know a lot of fans prefer DAO. That's why I leave the plot, the dialogue, the characters out of comparison -- it's a matter of personal preference, after all. Combat mechanics, on the other hand, are what Meredith likes to call cold hard facts.

So. Combat mechanics-wise, what we have is:
 
DAO/DAA:

(1) Extremely easy, to the point of being downright boring. You can literally fall asleep during late game fights. Differences between difficulty levels are minimal. DAO NM is, essentially, Normal where the enemies get a couple of insignificant fixed bonuses. Extremely short cooldown on health/mana potions. Badly designed asymmetrical scaling system: Georg Zoeller advocated it with some vigor in its day, but many things that sound nice in theory just do not work that well practically.

(2) Amateurishly designed, ridiculously unbalanced classes/abilities system. Examples: ridiculously overpowered specializations like Arcane Warrior and DAA Spirit Warrior; pathetically useless specializations like Shapeshifter; Mana Clash (enough said). In a nutshell: Mages, especially AW >>>>>>>> anyone else (DAO); Spirit Warrior Archers >>>>>>>>>> anyone else (DAA).

(3) The implementation of abilities/item properties in DAO/DAA is a buggy mess. ~30-40% of abilities/item properties either do not function properly, or do not work at all. Examples: abilities/properties that should modify threat do not do this (exceptions: AoS, Walking Bomb, Scattershot, Mind Blast, Cadash Stompers); abilities/properties that should modify attack animation speed either do not do this or do this in a buggy/messy/glitchy way; aura-like abilities stack (Rock Mastery, Rally); Shale and Dog abilities bugged beyond belief (yes, you won't believe what Overwhelm actually does); elemental spells applying states use incorrect resistance checks (Cone of Cold always assumes the target has a physical resistance of -1, for example); +X% healing property on items does nothing; crossbows being unaffected by attributes, thus leaving the whole weapon class totally useless. The list, in fact, is much much much longer.

Overall, I'd say DAO combat is an unplayable buggy mess without third-party modifications/fixes (four official patches do very little to fix the mechanics issues). Now, if you don't care about combat at all, I guess you can play DAO just fine. If you do, good luck installing a dozen conflicting third-party mods.

DA2:

(1) The difficulty settings have their issues: the difference between Normal, Hard and NM is reportedly enormous (no first-hand experience with Normal or Hard). However, NM is quite nightmarish, especially on your first playthrough. And that's a good thing for those of us that enjoy challenge. Cooldowns on hp/mana pots are adequate. Fully symmetrical scaling system that may sound idiotic, but, de facto, works much better than DAO/DAA's system. The most challenging NM fight in the game is probably Meredith+Gate Guardians, and that's actually an incredible achievement -- as any experienced RPG player knows, the final bosses are, as a rule, total pushovers due to scaling issues (in other words, party/protagonist getting stronger much faster than the enemies). 

(2) A solidly designed classes/abilities system. Yes, it has it flaws (a bit rigid, I admit). And no, it's no D&D. But it is balanced: little to no useless specializations/talents/spells, this time.

(3) The abilities and the properties are correctly implemented in 95% of the cases. Most of the mechanics glitches (Rally not transferring modals; shield armor rating stacking; Lacerate upgrade treated as a separate ability) were fixed in the very first patch. The only really serious bug that persists is the infinitely stacking Healing Aura.

Overall, I'd say DA2's gameplay design team work is most commendable. DA2 is a huge improvement over DAO/DAA in all things mechanics-related. And that's not a subjective evaluation. Again, I understand that if you don't care much about combat and find the new plot/dialogue/art direction repulsive, this fact alone won't make DA2 any more acceptable for you.

Wait, did he say DA2 class system is good?  ROFL LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

DA2 class system is just DAO with a new coat of paint and more restrictions

[Phaedros]

Obvious Troll is blatantly obvious.

Nothing to see here, move along please..

[gotthammer]

I never did like 'level scaling', for any RPG. It just feels...I dunno. Wrong?

If you have to 'scale' encounters based on a PC's or a party's level, then maybe the system needs replacing/tweaking.
Maybe the power level increase per level is too high? Maybe drops or loot found should be tweaked, too? I dunno.

I'm not sure if 'The Witcher' has enemies that scale, but I think I prefer the system where the enemies stay the same, but the rewards (particularly in terms of XP) diminish as you progress (or remove XP-per-kill entirely?).

I don't remember which system it was (either Basic RP for Call of Cthulhu or Delta Green, or Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay), but I think there was no XP-per-kill and XP was given quite 'grudgingly' (the points of which only allow a small increase in a skill, I think. Maybe WFRP. If memory serves, even if your character were to advance quite far, care still had to be taken because a death from one hit was still possible ...that or 'sanity loss' in CoC/DG ...I think the DA setting could've used a sanity check mechanic: *Warden sees Broodmother* *sanity check* *fail* *roll for effect of sanity loss* *Warden runs out of Deep Roads, toward sunlight* *gains permanent mental disability*).
gah...that was long. /rant

In any case, I think I still prefer the overall feel of the combat in DA:O (the animations could be a bit faster, but the pace, IMHO, was fine): it wasn't perfect, but I definitely felt more 'involved'.

DA2's combat, on the other hand, got tedious or boring real quick: if it didn't involve exploding bodies, it involved MMO-style boss fights.
*shrugs*

[sympathy4saren]

Tapping the Awesome Button repeatedly is both easy and boring.

[IN1]

sympathy4saren wrote...

Tapping the Awesome Button repeatedly is both easy and boring.

Your comment is both witty and profound.