494 réponses à ce sujet

[Sylvius the Mad]

Symmetrical scaling is always a bad idea under any and all circumstances. DAO's asymmetrical scaling was vastly superior.

But if you really want to see how badly designed DA2's combat system is, look at friendly fire. the damage and HP numbers for the PC and his enemies are so grossly unbalanced relative to each other that the physical laws of the universe no longer make any sense. Why does Hawke do so much more damage than an Ogre? How is it that Hawke (and his compnaions) have vastly fewer hit points than every other person in the world?

DA2's combat mechanics make no sense because they weren't designed to make sense, and that is why they are terrible.

[IN1]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

DA2's combat mechanics make no sense because they weren't designed to make sense, and that is why they are terrible.

In other words, DAO is good because it is good, and DA2 is bad because it's bad, yes? :innocent: 

[KristinCousland]

I think this has been a great thread.

More interesting to read than the usual DA2 bashing going on.

In fact, this thread has been quite a bit more entertaining than DA2 combat

And, IN1 you are the most British Russian ever. A Tolstoy fan over Dostoievski I take it.

Anyhow, love the discussion and your DA vids.

Bioware should consider hiring you for PR

[IN1]

KristinCousland wrote...

And, IN1 you are the most British Russian ever. A Tolstoy fan over Dostoievski I take it.

Well, I live in Israel since I'm 12, so my undeniably Russian soul had probably mutated here a tiny bit Regarding T. vs D.: yes, I do favor Tolstoy, in fact.

[Theagg]

IN1 wrote...

Off-topic. Theagg, take no offense, please, but I have to ask this: why do you consistenty put space before exclamation/interrogation marks, as well as after parenthesis? That produces a weird effect, since your punctuation and orthography are remarkably good. I'm a professional linguist, so I get irritated by things that most people don't even notice, sorry 

Hmm, good question and I don't really know why other than to say force of habit. Perhaps I have just ended up appealing to my own aesthetics, whereby a space looks more appealing to me ( even if incorrect ). Perhaps from the distance I am viewing,(about 7ft), the parentheses merge too much with the text so I like that spacial break.
Or maybe a stealthed rogue has disoriented me and I know not what I type ...:innocent:

Modifié par Theagg, 25 avril 2011 - 10:06 .

[lobi]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Symmetrical scaling is always a bad idea under any and all circumstances. DAO's asymmetrical scaling was vastly superior.

I hated that we had to fight every creature in the game in Act 1. Then they just repeated by leveling with the PC. There was nothing to look forward to. Then at the end we got Supergirl, opps sorry, Merridith, and the Harvester, opps sorry, Orsino. They were a bit silly. I saw Orsino and thought, I already killed you, do you know Leliana?

[Theagg]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Symmetrical scaling is always a bad idea under any and all circumstances. DAO's asymmetrical scaling was vastly superior.

But if you really want to see how badly designed DA2's combat system is, look at friendly fire. the damage and HP numbers for the PC and his enemies are so grossly unbalanced relative to each other that the physical laws of the universe no longer make any sense. Why does Hawke do so much more damage than an Ogre? How is it that Hawke (and his compnaions) have vastly fewer hit points than every other person in the world?

DA2's combat mechanics make no sense because they weren't designed to make sense, and that is why they are terrible.

Ahh yes, I suspect they did it that way because the designers mistakenly equated length with quality...That's men for you.. As in, low damaging, high health enemies make for stupednously long combat events.

[Nasabe]

I agree with almost everything that the OP has said,

although my preferences push me to mention the rigid class system (although it is much much better balanced as mentioned) is a bit of a let-down. And I must agree with the huge health-pool enemies are a big "no, no, no" for me. Makes me feel like I'm raiding in an mmo game, not good.

Story-wise its a huge leap and improvement imo. I think it could be the most mature story I've ever seen in a game concept-wise. And the fact that Hawke can have 3 different personalities and specific choices via the dialogue system only available to those personalities is pure genious. I demand every rpg game from now on to have something similar! =)

Modifié par Nasabe, 25 avril 2011 - 10:21 .

[KristinCousland]

As for the combat.

I guess I fit into the casual gamer that Bioware tried to capture with DA2 - though it was not for me at all. Dragon Age was the first game I had tried in years.  I loved it.  Got friends to buy it and so forth.

The "mechanics" of DA2 might be superior, but I don't play combat in an adventure RPG as a mathematical puzzle to be solved. I have read interviews with other developers - and even old vets of the SSI games of the 90's, Pools of Radiance, that sort of thing are all going in the direction of DA2.

Combat must be tactile.  Something "awesome" must happen when you press that button.  They do have a point I guess - how true role playing combat really should put you into the combat as an actor - "feeling the might of every blow".

I am not quite sure if my post makes any real point, other than that the battle "mechanics" doesn't matter so much to many people. IN1 is clearly very intelligent, but not all of us are 140+ IQ mathematical machines - or Tolstoy fans.

Quite a lot of us just want "our character" to be the hero in combat without understanding all the inns and outs of it.

I guess what I am trying to say is that, as interesting as this discussion is, it doesn't matter as much.

  People have different tastes.  To me playing Dragon Age and watching the story play out was more like listening to a campfire tale (where I played the main role and made the pivotal choices).

  I don't want my fast twitch reflexes tested, nor being a genious figuring out the ins and outs of the equations behinds the combat and exploiting weaknesses in the game design.

I think DAO did show there is still a market for players like me.  I hope Bioware rediscovers us

[brazen_nl]

KristinCousland wrote...

As for the combat.

  I don't want my fast twitch reflexes tested, nor being a genious figuring out the ins and outs of the equations behinds the combat and exploiting weaknesses in the game design.

What equations are necessary to know? Furthermore, the PAUSE button still works ...

[brazen_nl]

Nasabe wrote...

Story-wise its a huge leap and improvement imo.

You know, when I started playing this game, I had no clue what it was about. Okay, need to go to the Deep Roads. Why? Then all of a sudden I found myself in Act 2 and then Act 3.

With DAO, I liked the fact that the big picture was given up front. Blight going on, need to recruit a lot of folks to be able to fight it. It had direction, and everything I did had that in mind.

I guess I found myself aimlessly wondering around in DA2, asking myself frequently what I'm doing it all for ...

Modifié par brazen_nl, 25 avril 2011 - 11:08 .

[Merced652]

In this thread i offer my obviously biased opinion as an attempt at being objective. I also manage to fail miserably and troll the thread as a result. Clearly da2 is superior because of my contrived and subjective points of reference.

[Embargoed]

brazen_nl wrote...

Nasabe wrote...

Story-wise its a huge leap and improvement imo.

You know, when I started playing this game, I had no clue what it was about. Okay, need to go to the Deep Roads. Why? Then all of a sudden I found myself in Act 2 and then Act 3.

With DAO, I liked the fact that the big picture was given up front. Blight going on, need to recruit a lot of folks to be able to fight it. It had direction, and everything I did had that in mind.

I guess I found myself aimlessly wondering around in DA2, asking myself frequently what I'm doing it all for ...

Really?

I just listened to the dialogue. Not that hard. I guess you didn't find the conversation captivating. 

[Haexpane]

sympathy4saren wrote...

Tapping the Awesome Button repeatedly is both easy and boring.

Well Console now has Auto Attack!  No more button tapping.  Now I press the button once, and "WATCH AWESOME HAPPEN" in the form of some whiney story about mages being bad, and checking the same house over and over again for ninjas.

[IN1]

Merced652 wrote...

In this thread i offer my obviously biased opinion as an attempt at being objective. I also manage to fail miserably and troll the thread as a result. Clearly da2 is superior because of my contrived and subjective points of reference.

Ah, yes, I remember you from other threads. Have a nice day 

[Haexpane]

Nasabe wrote...
 . And I must agree with the huge health-pool enemies are a big "no, no, no" for me. Makes me feel like I'm raiding in an mmo game, not good.

 )

Except in an MMO the combat is actually fun and dynamic and there is a risk/reward balance.

In DA2 there is no risk, and no reward for the combat.  It's just there to slow you down.  The fact that it's more effective to just HOLD POSITION as soon as you enter a zone instead of moving around and getting positions is also telling.

The respawn waves removed tactics from the early parts of the game, in fact, if you try to employ tactics, you will just kill stuff slower and risk dying.  Again, for almost ZERO reward.

[2papercuts]

IN1 wrote...

Merced652 wrote...

In this thread i offer my obviously biased opinion as an attempt at being objective. I also manage to fail miserably and troll the thread as a result. Clearly da2 is superior because of my contrived and subjective points of reference.

Ah, yes, I remember you from other threads. Have a nice day 

quick question, are you actually saying your statements in the OP are facts?

also, do you count strategy as part of mechanics

[Nasabe]

Well yes DAO was more directed, "do this and this to save the world". Well, obviously it wasn't as simple as I stated but it was somewhere along those lines. DA2 is less forceful to lead you, which I liked. But it is personal preference nonetheless.

In DA:O choosing between the "backstabbing but progressive-thinking liberal" or "honorable but believes in seperation of the upper class" as a king of orzammar was a very nice touch and was a very mature concept imo. DA2 has more of those choices which I like, again it's a personal preference.

[Haexpane]

Nasabe wrote...
 I think it could be the most mature story I've ever seen in a game concept-wise

And the Oscar for "Most Mature Story" goes to....
COCOON 12!

Seriously, I'm not even sure what "mature story" is supposed to even mean.  I know you mean it as a compliment, but it reminds me of when people talked up Metal Gear Solid 2's  "awesome complex story".  Fans of MGS2 story thought because it was convoluted doublespeak hitched onto a giant conspiracy theory from bad 80s sci fi made it "good".

DA2 uses the "Memento" template, nothing really new there.  It's a cheap way to fancy-up a mundane story.

[Nasabe]

Haexpane wrote...

Nasabe wrote...
 . And I must agree with the huge health-pool enemies are a big "no, no, no" for me. Makes me feel like I'm raiding in an mmo game, not good.

 )

Except in an MMO the combat is actually fun and dynamic and there is a risk/reward balance.

In DA2 there is no risk, and no reward for the combat.  It's just there to slow you down.  The fact that it's more effective to just HOLD POSITION as soon as you enter a zone instead of moving around and getting positions is also telling.

The respawn waves removed tactics from the early parts of the game, in fact, if you try to employ tactics, you will just kill stuff slower and risk dying.  Again, for almost ZERO reward.

In an mmo it feels fun and dynamic because you don't control the whole party and feel like you are synchronizing with another person.

In this state, the combat in DA2 is screaming for co-op imo. Would be very fun. But as a single-player experience boss fights are more of a grind than anything else with that I agree.

[neppakyo]

MSG1 was waay better than MSG2. More mature TW1 was a more mature story than DA2.

[IN1]

2papercuts wrote...

IN1 wrote...

Merced652 wrote...

In this thread i offer my obviously biased opinion as an attempt at being objective. I also manage to fail miserably and troll the thread as a result. Clearly da2 is superior because of my contrived and subjective points of reference.

Ah, yes, I remember you from other threads. Have a nice day 

quick question, are you actually saying your statements in the OP are facts?

also, do you count strategy as part of mechanics

1. Well, things like: "talents X, Y and Z weren't functioning as intended in DAO" are facts, and can be easily verified. In the OP, I present my opinion and try to back it up by factual evidence. If some participants in this discussion find that offensive, it's their problem, I guess (please note: as a rule, those posters do not try to back their opinion up with factual evidence at all).
2. Your question is too vague. Define "strategy" in DAO/DA2 context, please.