494 réponses à ce sujet

[Nasabe]

Haexpane wrote...

Nasabe wrote...
 I think it could be the most mature story I've ever seen in a game concept-wise

And the Oscar for "Most Mature Story" goes to....
COCOON 12!

Seriously, I'm not even sure what "mature story" is supposed to even mean.  I know you mean it as a compliment, but it reminds me of when people talked up Metal Gear Solid 2's  "awesome complex story".  Fans of MGS2 story thought because it was convoluted doublespeak hitched onto a giant conspiracy theory from bad 80s sci fi made it "good".

DA2 uses the "Memento" template, nothing really new there.  It's a cheap way to fancy-up a mundane story.

I believe i did unintentionally answer what I meant with "mature story" on an earlier post =). I don't mean the gore, sex or how interwovenly it was pieced together. I mean the concepts the story is dealing with.

[2papercuts]

IN1 wrote...

2papercuts wrote...

IN1 wrote...

Merced652 wrote...

In this thread i offer my obviously biased opinion as an attempt at being objective. I also manage to fail miserably and troll the thread as a result. Clearly da2 is superior because of my contrived and subjective points of reference.

Ah, yes, I remember you from other threads. Have a nice day 

quick question, are you actually saying your statements in the OP are facts?

also, do you count strategy as part of mechanics

1. Well, things like: "talents X, Y and Z weren't functioning as intended in DAO" are facts, and can be easily verified. In the OP, I present my opinion and try to back it up by factual evidence. If some participants in this discussion find that offensive, it's their problem, I guess (please note: as a rule, those posters do not try to back their opinion up with factual evidence at all).
2. Your question is too vague. Define "strategy" in DAO/DA2 context, please.

in the OP the point 1 for DAO and points 1 and 2 in the DA2 section are opinions because people may disagree with them

actually, "what do you consider the mechanics of the game" is a better question than the strategy one 

[toggled]

OP:

Interesting analysis. But I'm a very simple person. All I know is: in Origins, combat is fun; in DA2, combat is dull.

[xkg]

toggled wrote...

OP:

Interesting analysis. But I'm a very simple person. All I know is: in Origins, combat is fun; in DA2, combat is dull.

Wow. +1. I couldnt say it better myself.

I'am to not used to playing games with caculator in my hand + tons of spreadsheets around trying to unleash 10000k damage combo.
I know that DAO combat was better simply beacuse i feel so.

[Zjarcal]

I happen to agree completely with all the points the OP made, although I think the OP shoots himself/herself in the foot by stating that this are "cold hard facts". There's still plenty of subjectivity involved in deciding which style of combat is "better", or more appropriately, which style is more fun to the player.

To me, the DA2 combat is way more fun, but I would never say that it's a cold hard fact. It's just my opinion.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 26 avril 2011 - 12:02 .

[IN1]

in the OP the point 1 for DAO and points 1 and 2 in the DA2 section are opinions because people may disagree with them

These things can be compared, at least in part, numerically/theoretically in addition to immediate judgment based on practical experience, that can be obscured by different non-related circumstances. For instance, you might want to open the respective .xls/.gda files and take a look at the bonuses listed for NM difficulty in DAO and in DA2. The cooldown durations are also easily comparable. Asymmetrical scaling in DAO vs symmetrical scaling in DA2 is also a fact. 

That said, I understand your point. Some people might, in fact, prefer significantly lower difficulty, total lack of challenge and overpowered mages, and interpret these points as design strengths.

actually, "what do you consider the mechanics of the game" is a better question than the strategy one

Combat mechanics are combat rules (item/creature properties and abilities, as well as their interaction) and their practical implementation. For example, exploding bodies or faster game pace are not combat mechanics. Possible party synergies and wave spawning (the principle, not the mid-air animation people are so obsessed with), on the other hand, are combat mechanics.

Modifié par IN1, 26 avril 2011 - 12:13 .

[2papercuts]

IN1 wrote...

in the OP the point 1 for DAO and points 1 and 2 in the DA2 section are opinions because people may disagree with them

These things can be compared, at least in part, numerically/theoretically in addition to immediate judgment based on practical experience, that can be obscured by different non-related circumstances. For instance, you might want to open the respective .xls/.gda files and take a look at the bonuses listed for NM difficulty in DAO and in DA2. The cooldown durations are also easily comparable. Asymmetrical scaling in DAO vs symmetrical scaling in DA2 is also a fact. 

That said, I understand your point. Some people might, in fact, prefer significantly lower difficulty, total lack of challenge and overpowered mages, and interpret these points as design strengths.

some feel DA2 NM is easy, some might feel that the design in DAO was great,

also, you could say that the unbalances make the game better in some ways

as for mechanics of DA2 I don't have an opinion having not played it much

[Yrkoon]

IN1 wrote...
 For instance, you might want to open the respective .xls/.gda files and take a look at the bonuses listed for NM difficulty in DAO and in DA2.

 Oh? 

Can you give me some examples of the bonusses listed in the .xls/.gda files in DA2 NM and then explain to us how they factually support your claim that DA2 is more difficult/complex than DA:O NM from a combat mechanics standpoint?

Modifié par Yrkoon, 26 avril 2011 - 12:48 .

[IN1]

Yrkoon wrote...

IN1 wrote...
 For instance, you might want to open the respective .xls/.gda files and take a look at the bonuses listed for NM difficulty in DAO and in DA2.

 Oh? 

Can you give me some examples of the bonusses listed in the .xls/.gda files in DA2 NM and then explain to us how they factually support your claim that DA2 is more difficult/complex than DA:O NM from a combat mechanics standpoint?

To us? Plural? Well, my answer to your multiple personalities is: no, since I'm not inclined to waste my time and energy on (any of) you. The issue is, you are one of the most repulsive posters I've seen on these forums. In fact, I've never witnessed you post anything but inept rude destructive critique. And, as a rule, I refuse to discuss anything seriously with aggressive trolls.

Of course, if one of the serious, constructive participants in this discussion wants to learn more about the NM bonuses, I'll answer the question gladly, it's not that hard.

Modifié par IN1, 26 avril 2011 - 01:09 .

[Rurik948]

DA2 has possibly the lousiest rpg system ever created in the industry. The wide range of flaws starts with the feats like critical hits, damage and defense smeared over the attributes, which weakens the character improvement. And of course couldn't help but mention the repeatative, hack and slash style waves of enemies which in fact kill the rpg elements. The game seems has been initially designed as a slasher and only later was 'translated' into an rpg language.

Modifié par Rurik948, 26 avril 2011 - 01:24 .

[IN1]

Rurik948 wrote...

The wide range of flaws starts with the feats like critical hits, damage and defense smeared over the attributes, which weakens the character improvement.

Ummm... Examples?

[Tantum Dic Verbo]

In Exile wrote...

Tantum Dic Verbo wrote...
To do that, we'd have to see game designs that don't rehash old-school D&D mechanics, though.  Are we ready for anything that iconoclastic?

We're at mimicking WOW and are going to be stuck there for quite some time. I'm not optimistic about true turn-based combat ever coming back.

I'm not particularly interested in seeing its return, frankly.  Turn-based combat is a font of immersion-breaking silliness.  I'm at least as willing to play a game with real-time, action-oriented combat as I am a rote adaptation of tabletop miniatures combat.  To me, it comes down to how well it's implemented, whatever the approach.

What I'd like to see scuttled in terms of fresher approaches is the roll to-hit/roll-damage/subract number from HP pool treadmill.  Thing is, I think we're used to seeing boss fights as wars of attrition, and the old style is a pretty reliable way to do that.  There would undoubtedly be objections to bosses being taken down with a couple of successful attacks (or, worse yet, PC's going down like that).  I certainly don't see the incentive for a designer to take risks with a new system when HP's are an ingrained expectation of the RPG player.

Oh, well.  Maybe we tabletop players will have to come up with something revolutionary so CRPG developers can adapt it.

[Brave27]

Its really your own opinion, i know you will be using abilities and other stuff like that, but DA:O you press the A button and wait till the opponent is dead. In DA2 you mash the A button, i find that mashing it is a little more fun, and lets not forget DA2 has auto attack if you want it. In1 i admire you for faceing all these raging crazy people.

[tmp7704]

IN1 wrote...
For instance, you might want to open the respective .xls/.gda files and take a look at the bonuses listed for NM difficulty in DAO and in DA2.

Don't however these values tell little without having at hand also the base values which get modified?

As example of what i mean, suppose theoretically game 1 has player's character deal 2x the amount of damage dealt by the enemy. Meantime, game 2 has player's character deal 4x the amount of damage dealt by the enemy. Then, in "hard" mode game 1 gives the enemy 100% damage bonus while game 2 gives the enemy 200% bonus. End result: in the "hard" mode game 1 has the enemy deal damage equal to player's character, while game 2 has the enemy deal 50% of player's own damage... yet going by just the "difficulty bonus" numbers game 2 at the glance seems to make its hard mode much more difficult than game 1...

[Nozybidaj]

Finally a fair and balanced comparison of DAO and DA2 combat mechanics. I'm sure this turned into a great feedback thread after the completely unbiased OP. Good to see something around here that doesn't come right out of the gate as flamebait.

[IN1]

tmp7704 wrote...

IN1 wrote...
For instance, you might want to open the respective .xls/.gda files and take a look at the bonuses listed for NM difficulty in DAO and in DA2.

Don't however these values tell little without having at hand also the base values which get modified?

As example of what i mean, suppose theoretically game 1 has player's character deal 2x the amount of damage dealt by the enemy. Meantime, game 2 has player's character deal 4x the amount of damage dealt by the enemy. Then, in "hard" mode game 1 gives the enemy 100% damage bonus while game 2 gives the enemy 200% bonus. End result: in the "hard" mode game 1 has the enemy deal damage equal to player's character, while game 2 has the enemy deal 50% of player's own damage... yet going by just the "difficulty bonus" numbers game 2 at the glance seems to make its hard mode much more difficult than game 1...

Theoretically, I see your point. Practically, however, that's the difference between Normal and NM in DAO. DA2 NM has a lot more bonuses for the enemies/handicaps for the player: damage resistance/armor; hp; damage; ability cooldown duration; force; attack rating; reactive/consumable limit; etc.

[IN1]

Brave27 wrote...

In1 i admire you for faceing all these raging crazy people.

They are not crazy (I'm not so sure about serial trolls, but the majority of my opponents are sane good people) and that's their right to express discontent. However, I think they (sorry for such a sweeping generalization) commit a somewhat understandable logical fallacy.

An analogy: if you find out your wife cheats on you (God forbid), it's perfectly reasonable for you to feel betrayed, to push for divorce, and to avoid further personal contact with her. But to claim that she's ugly and you never loved her anyway -- only because she betrayed your trust and hurt your feelings -- is... well, not very wise. Somewhat understandable, but not very wise. 

[Brave27]

Riloux wrote...

Are you kidding? You can beat DA2 with auto-attack alone.

Okay but this does sound a bit crazy to me

[Travie]

Enemies randomly spawning all around your party + party members that can't be told to back off when getting hit in the face unless you are babysitting them = a better game?

The huge gap in difficulty between the classes, warriors being the easiest by far, especially on higher difficulty settings.

DA2 did have a much harder nightmare mode but it wasn't because of a inherent need for more complex tactics, it was the massive scaling. Enemies had WAY more life and higher level creatures made all your weapons and armor feel like you were hitting with whiffle ball bats and pillows. Example: The Arishok and Rock Wraith battles were ONLY more fatiguing, not more difficult, because of the 30 MINUTES STRAIGHT you had to whittle down their health. This just made the battles more tedious, not more fun.

Armor/weapon scaling was ass backwards. Every time you leveled your equipment became more and more useless, making you actually weaker every time you leveled. Usually on an RPG this would be fine and expected (I mean you can't use that wooden practice sword forever right?), except for the bogglingly stupid sliding scale they put on every piece of equipment in the game, i.e. if you are a higher level then your equipment it becomes rusty and less and less useful no matter where you are in the game. Most depressingly this just discouraged exploration and leveling, because since every enemy is scaled to your level and every level weakens your armor and weapons finishing the games 5 levels lower actually makes you feel more powerful. Try it.

Those were just off the top of my head, and are much more game breaking and frustrating then any technical bug you mentioned (most of which are fixed through official and mod patches btw). The massive pitfalls of the DA2 combat cannot be moded out without completely changing the combat and how it works.

DA:O had a solid base which was improved upon and fixed. DA2 does not have a solid base and I doubt it ever can be fixed.

Modifié par Travie, 26 avril 2011 - 05:10 .

[asaiasai]

Alot of folks just do not get it including Mike Laidlaw. When it comes to skill there is no useless talents, even if the purpose of the talent is to provide an hurdle the player has to jump to get to the talent they want, that talent still has purpose.

Real life example, i work in a hospital in the powerplant. I maintain, vacuum pumps, oiless air pumps which are used to run various pieces of equipment like the ventilators in our ICUs. I maintain 2500 ton centrifigal force chilled water units used for climate control including dehumidification in our OR suites. I maintain bi fuel (nat gas and desil) electrical generator units to provide back up power in event of a power loss so that come hell or high water my hospital's lights will be on and out doors will open. All in all i have close to 6 years of vocational or techinical training to cover the machinery i am responsible for.

How this is relevant is that in order to learn how to repar and maintain the generators i had to first learn how to be an electrician to safely handle the 4160 volt electrical lines from the power grid that are connected to the switch gear that controls generator function. I had to learn how to program the switch gear (automatic devices that in the event of a power outage switch from the grid to generator power and back again upon the resumption of grid power) to remove the switch and hence the generator from service to prevent electrical shock or the generator from running while i am servicing the machine. Upon the completion of electrician training i then had to go to school for desil mechanics. Then i had to go to special classes to learn the specifics of CAT bi fuel generators. Our generators will use natural gas as a fuel, or desil as a fuel, or the machine as designed will use both (where due to the dry properties of natural gas the desil is used as more of a lubricant than burned as fuel). My point is that in order to get the ability to service the generators i had several steps to go through.

How that applies in game is that as a mage i will have the same learning process which is a natural progression, so like i had to learn to be an electrician, desil machanic, bi fuel generator mechanic, which unlocks my ability to perform safe maintinance or repairs on the generator. So to arrive at arcane mastery one needs to learn arcane bolt, arcane shield, staff focus to arrive at arcane mastery. No talent is a waste, as a few may have no other purpose than to provide a point sink to create a sense of progression. Much of what seems to be the change or the modus operandi concerning DA2 is the attempt to provide some instant gratification at the expense of immersion.

The real issue is not that any talent is a waste but that the developers due to either lazyness, writers block, resource and time constraints could not come up with or include any viable talents to make the player compromise, or sacrifice instead choosing to appeal to the baser instant gratification. In a sense they were pissing on me and telling me it is raining. So i hope you fan bois enjoy your golden shower, having paid up to 20 dollars extra for less game.

Asai

[TheButterflyEffect]

Well combat for all classes is a HELL of a lot better this time around. Now it's actually fun and awesome to play and to watch. In DAO it was just terrible, slow and clunky and just ugh terrible.

Now mages actually use their staves to smash enemies when they get too close, rather then just trying to poke them to death like in Origins... I pondered that a lot, it was really stupid.

Modifié par TheButterflyEffect, 26 avril 2011 - 05:27 .

[IN1]

Enemies randomly spawning all around your party + party members that can't be told to back off when getting hit in the face unless you are babysitting them = a better game?

A better game? Have you even read the OP?

The huge gap in difficulty between the classes, warriors being the easiest by far, especially on higher difficulty settings.

You are wrong. For soloing, rogues are the strongest class by far. As for party formation, everyone is more or less equal (I assume you are going to balance the party class-wise, not go with Rogue Hawke+Sebastian+Isabela+Varric, and complain about the lack of CCC, yes?).

Usually on an RPG this would be fine and expected (I mean you can't use that wooden practice sword forever right?), except for the bogglingly stupid sliding scale they put on every piece of equipment in the game, i.e. if you are a higher level then your equipment it becomes rusty and less and less useful no matter where you are in the game. Most depressingly this just discouraged exploration and leveling, because since every enemy is scaled to your level and every level weakens your armor and weapons finishing the games 5 levels lower actually makes you feel more powerful. Try it.

 What are you talking about? "Rusty"? Are we talking about the same game? Enemies do scale to your level (so, yes, in a way, using Glandivalis vs a level 20 creature is better that using it vs a level 25 creature), but that's it. Your gear does not become "rusty" or anything. Where did you get this idea from?

Those were just off the top of my head, and are much more game breaking and frustrating then any technical bug you mentioned (most of which are fixed through official

No. None of those bugs was fixed as of 1.04. Third-party mods resolved most of the issues, true enough.

Modifié par IN1, 26 avril 2011 - 06:13 .

[IN1]

asaiasai wrote...

Alot of folks just do not get it including Mike Laidlaw. When it comes to skill there is no useless talents, even if the purpose of the talent is to provide an hurdle the player has to jump to get to the talent they want, that talent still has purpose.

Real life example, i work in a hospital in the powerplant. I maintain, vacuum pumps, oiless air pumps which are used to run various pieces of equipment like the ventilators in our ICUs. I maintain 2500 ton centrifigal force chilled water units used for climate control including dehumidification in our OR suites. I maintain bi fuel (nat gas and desil) electrical generator units to provide back up power in event of a power loss so that come hell or high water my hospital's lights will be on and out doors will open. All in all i have close to 6 years of vocational or techinical training to cover the machinery i am responsible for.

How this is relevant is that in order to learn how to repar and maintain the generators i had to first learn how to be an electrician to safely handle the 4160 volt electrical lines from the power grid that are connected to the switch gear that controls generator function. I had to learn how to program the switch gear (automatic devices that in the event of a power outage switch from the grid to generator power and back again upon the resumption of grid power) to remove the switch and hence the generator from service to prevent electrical shock or the generator from running while i am servicing the machine. Upon the completion of electrician training i then had to go to school for desil mechanics. Then i had to go to special classes to learn the specifics of CAT bi fuel generators. Our generators will use natural gas as a fuel, or desil as a fuel, or the machine as designed will use both (where due to the dry properties of natural gas the desil is used as more of a lubricant than burned as fuel). My point is that in order to get the ability to service the generators i had several steps to go through.

How that applies in game is that as a mage i will have the same learning process which is a natural progression, so like i had to learn to be an electrician, desil machanic, bi fuel generator mechanic, which unlocks my ability to perform safe maintinance or repairs on the generator. So to arrive at arcane mastery one needs to learn arcane bolt, arcane shield, staff focus to arrive at arcane mastery. No talent is a waste, as a few may have no other purpose than to provide a point sink to create a sense of progression. Much of what seems to be the change or the modus operandi concerning DA2 is the attempt to provide some instant gratification at the expense of immersion.

The real issue is not that any talent is a waste but that the developers due to either lazyness, writers block, resource and time constraints could not come up with or include any viable talents to make the player compromise, or sacrifice instead choosing to appeal to the baser instant gratification. In a sense they were pissing on me and telling me it is raining. So i hope you fan bois enjoy your golden shower, having paid up to 20 dollars extra for less game.

Asai

I believe that's a wrong place to post your CV.

[IN1]

Zjarcal wrote...

I happen to agree completely with all the points the OP made, although I think the OP shoots himself/herself in the foot by stating that this are "cold hard facts".

You misquote me. I've never claimed my evaluation is a cold hard fact. I've claimed combat mechanics are cold hard facts. Which they are.