85 réponses à ce sujet

[fetyr2004]

Hey all,

I have yet another request for a build. I just started playing again after a month of being away and really want to play a monk that dual worlds kamas however I have no clue how to do it. All suggestions welcome. It is for the OC and I would prefer pure monk if possible. Thanks

Fetyr

[Shadooow]

the go pure, take weapon focus on kama, improved critical on kama and thats it no build needed

for OC ever anyway

[jmlzemaggo]

I'm not good at monk but the only thing I maybe understood by reading the character sheet was kamas aren't as efficient as bare hands, and not interesting visually at all.
Not to mention the 4 amazing Monk Alternate Combat Animations, by Ragnarok_mr4
(Read Tip N°2, in my Add-ons list in my signature)
Unless you find some über-kamas... not in the OC though.
And at that point, I like katanas better... Yeap, so just as Lowlander said.

[HipMaestro]

jmlzemaggo wrote...
Unless you find some über-kamas... not in the OC though.

Tsk, tsk. Pushing the envelope, jml.  If I had a flounder handy I'd be using it now.

BTW, fetyr.. your check is in the mail.  Dual kamas achieve the highest APR possible (10) in the game but only with at least 4 fighter-type levels by clvl 20.  Even a pure kama monk can achieve 9 APR for the OC if hasted and while flurrying.  Now if only some nice mage would buff your weapons, you'd have it knocked.

Modifié par HipMaestro, 25 avril 2011 - 08:22 .

[HipMaestro]

Lowlander wrote...

HipMaestro wrote...
 Dual kamas achieve the highest APR possible (10) in the game...

So?

I would rather have 8 x D20 attacks.

Than spend 3 feats (Ambi/TWF/ITWF) to get:

10 x D6 attacks at -2 to hit.

If they all hit the average for 8 D20s = 84 points.
If they all hit the average for 10 D6 =  35 points.

Heck the 8 - D20 attacks Average more than the maximum of the 10-D6 attacks.

Unless you have Uber weapons (like crafted HotU ones) Unarmed is better.

One can't dual-wield fists, it's a one-hand attack.  Therefore, you only get the properties and onhit enhancements from one source (gloves) rather than 2 which sometimes can stack (like with regen, for example).  The OP specifically requested a dual-kama build so rather than dump cold water on the plan pointing out some of the advantages of going that way is more productive.  Keen kamas will crit more than unarmed so you'll need to figure that into your calculations besides.

the d20 attack will be getting a grand total of the last 2 or 3 characters levels (of OC gameplay) at that max damage level so you'll need to do some more averaging for the 5 different unarmed damage stages while the kama damage remains constant throughout.

Why confuse a simple build request with an editorial about unarmed vs. kama?  *sigh*

Modifié par HipMaestro, 26 avril 2011 - 04:18 .

[jmlzemaggo]

Strictly on a stylistic point of view, along with the Monk Alternate Combat Animations, by Ragnarok_mr4, a monk to me fights bare hands.
Otherwise... it's just another fighter with tools, but if you wanna go for kamas fetyr2004, and HipMaestro was unusually right here... for a change , of course you shall do just as you please:

That's the only NWN rule. The true purpose of gaming.

Monk is a very special class I use only when I need some ascetic religious type of PC for a game that requires a very particular way of handling the roleplaying.
When everything around needs to be unmaterialistic. Heaven...
Purely mental, abstract. Nothing heavy, all as light as the skin.
That works even better with a female PC...

Like my wife without my credit card...

(She has one on her own, and I even used it when I wasn't at my best, only... I had to make that stupidiest joke ever. I just had to... I'm stupid. But even her would have smiled... while nailing me on the nearest wall.) 
And for a smile of her... 

Modifié par jmlzemaggo, 26 avril 2011 - 07:22 .

[Shia Luck]

Most effective would be monk1 or 6/ftr4/rogue (or maybe assassin) all the rest. Wpn specialisation and an extra attack from ftr is the main thing so F4/M12+ will also be effective if you want her to be mostly monk. If it is the OC then str build would be most effective. (Dex build needs more levels to really shine)

One level of rogue is defiitly worth it mostly for the UMD skill tho, so you can flame weapon your kamas, (which is something missing from the damage calculation above). If you are interested, kamas become better than lvl16 fists when they get to +7 enhancement (assuming you are using scrolls for flame weapon and GMW. A real mage buffing you will bring that number down to +6 iirc maybe (sry, long time since I had this discussion ). Of course they will also be better early levels when you can GMW and flame weapon them and the gloves available are very weak.

Key points:
All stats at 14 to start (except charisma), then increase only str (or dex)
Skills go to tumble, hide, move silently, listen, discipline, (UMD)
imprtant feats: wpn focus: kama, improved critical kama, wp specialisation kama, (knockdown and the improved one if taking less than 6 monk levels) , (blind fight (not so important in OC but is normally a must have)), expertise (and even improved expertise). (wpn finesse if you go dex)

Personally I am with JML... fists and alternate animations are way more fun, but it's your game *grin*

Have fun

[Gregor Wyrmbane]

 I'm no hall of fame character builder, but I'm curious about something with this concept. If building a mostly monk dual wielding kama PC for the OC, would it be advantageous to take a single level of ranger for the "dual wield" feat? Monks don't wear armor anyway, and rangers get some prettty handy class skills. Just wonderin'.

[Shia Luck]

1 lvl only gets you one off hand attack. You'd need 9 to get the improved dual wield. With 4 ftr lvls for wpn specialisation and an extra attack you easily have enough feat slots to spend on the 3 feats soooo.
Have fun

[Gregor Wyrmbane]

Shia Luck wrote...

1 lvl only gets you one off hand attack. You'd need 9 to get the improved dual wield. With 4 ftr lvls for wpn specialisation and an extra attack you easily have enough feat slots to spend on the 3 feats soooo.
Have fun

Yeah, I got that part, but I was thinkin' from what the OP requested about a mostly monk build and wanting to use kamas, that it might work okay for the OC. Especially if it's just about the visual/RP effect. I suppose 4 fighter levels would be better, but in the OC you're not likely to go above level 16, so BAB isn't going to gain you 4 base attacks per round anyway. I know you can sometimes make level 18, but you have to really milk every XP you can find to do it, and it only happens in the very end. Besides all that, fighters don't get much in the way of skills. Rangers get Hide/Move Silently, and they also get Search which is helpful for avoiding traps. 

[Kail Pendragon]

Lowlander wrote...

HipMaestro wrote...
Why confuse a simple build request with an editorial about unarmed vs. kama?  *sigh*

Not confusing the issue, but pointing out facts he may not be aware of that could alter his decision.

If he knew that bare handed monks would easily do double the the damage of a dual wielding Kama monk, while saving him three feats in the process that might change his outlook completely.

They don't easily do double damage. Damage output is calculated over the whole round an dhas to factor in available and usable gear and buffs.

Maybe he was under the impression that dual wielding Kamas would be more effective.

Which easily happens in a magic rich environment like the OC.

Sure you don't always get the Massive D20 damage, but the D12,  and D10 and all still outweigh the extra attacks

Not really.

Also you only get one extra attack before level 12...  Get down to  much lower level and it won't make sense to dual wield because of the minuses. Monks don't have the best BAB, have to spread abilities, and if you flurry/dual you are getting -4 to hit...

Untrue. One extra attack at -2 AB i senough to grant the advantage over single wielding but in the case AC-AB=18.

You might find a level or two where dual wielding is better, but in the OC Unarmed is clearly the more effective overall choice.

IIRC what is available in the OC, false.

BTW, no need to go pure class. FTR/Rogue/Monk will work fine and you can use armor for the earlier levels not to say UMD to enchant your kamas (something you can't do with fists).

[Grophos]

Race Halfing or Elf
Dex based
If you want the max amount of attacks per round and that is your primary focus.
Monk levels 1,2,3,4,5,6 Rouge 7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16 Fighter 17,18,19,20, Rogue rest monk or fighter ocassionaly for DISC dump.
Take in this order
Weapon Finesse Ambidexterity then as soon as they become available TWF chain.

Strategy: Sneak knockdown deal a 1d6+10-20d6 10 times per round.

Modifié par Grophos, 26 avril 2011 - 08:22 .

[Shadooow]

You dont have to use kamas or unarmed every time. You dont even need focus/improved critical on them, so if you find out situation where kamas/fists wont be effective, just use fists/kamas and thats it. As I said many times on these forums, you dont need build for OC, just some basic understanding of skills/feats. So if you want to use kamas, get ambidexterity, two weapon fighting and improved one which needs 15 dex or get one level of ranger. If you dont want to see kamas at all, take other defensive/combat feats instead.

Lowlander wrote...

It is all back to the OP about how much
he values being a "Pure Monk" which is a better unarmed choice vs how
much he values being a Kama monk, which is really the better multi-class
option.

Agreed with you on the unarmed issue btw. Though you dont need to use two kamas every time, fists are still better for pure monk in OC.

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 26 avril 2011 - 08:41 .

[Kail Pendragon]

Lowlander wrote...

I would like to know what gear is there that you think compensates for the  difference between D6 kama and D20 fist damage. PM me if you think it is too spoilerish.

My recall is quite fresh as I just played the OC start to finish in the last week. I wasn't playing a Kama wielder, but the Kamas I saw were quite weak, none of the special forged weapons is a Kama. There were no uber bracers/non monk gauntlets that would really give the Kama wielder a significant advantage.

A Kama monk isn't going to touch end game damage of a Fist monk in the OC from what I have seen of the OC  items this week.

I might easily misremember, haven't touched the OC in a long while.

So aye, if there are not good kamas (and I mean good as in line with a mid magic environment, roughly speaking +5 with elemental damage and possibly keen by lvl 15) then unarmed delivers more damage per round.

[cds13]

Go for it, fetyr. Let's give the kama monk a try. I played with the same kind of character and the number of blows dealt is impressive. Bare hands are superior as choice and you will find more likely powerful gloves than powerful kamas.

[cds13]

Oh, I forgot one thing, a personal choice: I would go for a dexer kama-monk. Is your character an elf? Than I would go for 12 in STR and 16 in DEX (you could do the same with other classes but the elven one won't take the extra penalty points for raising DEX). Than add weapon finesse to the above suggestions.

[Shia Luck]

Gregor Wyrmbane wrote...

Shia Luck wrote...

1
lvl only gets you one off hand attack. You'd need 9 to get the improved
dual wield. With 4 ftr lvls for wpn specialisation and an extra attack
you easily have enough feat slots to spend on the 3 feats soooo.
Have fun

Yeah,
I got that part, but I was thinkin' from what the OP requested about a
mostly monk build and wanting to use kamas, that it might work okay for
the OC. Especially if it's just about the visual/RP effect. I suppose 4
fighter levels would be better, but in the OC you're not likely to go
above level 16, so BAB isn't going to gain you 4 base attacks per round
anyway.

No you won't get the 7 APR (not 4, is
monks we are talking, no? *grin* ), but 4 FTR levels will mean your AB
is +1 at any level you choose to compare on, and you will get each extra
attack one level earlier.

Rangers get Hide/Move Silently, and they also get Search which is helpful for avoiding traps. 

Very
true. But rogue gets these things and UMD which, for a kama
build with no other access to flame weapon, GMW, bless weapon, darkfire,
keen etc etc, is way more important. Without flame weapon at the least,
unarmed is better than kama until +7 enhancement. I suppose you could
go ranger/rogue/monk but without the 2nd off hand attack, it'll be a
much weaker choice than a ftr/rog/monk. (Xp penalty tho, which I never
care about, but it is a factor for some people.)

+2 from wpn
specialisation will beat the +1 average damage increase from 4 more monk
lvls (so it's better than pure monk) and get you two extra attacks.
Ranger 1 will get only one extra attack and no damage increase.

cds13 wrote...

Oh, I forgot one thing, a personal choice: I would go for a dexer kama-monk. Is your character an elf? Than I would go for 12 in STR and 16 in DEX (you could do the same with other classes but the elven one won't take the extra penalty points for raising DEX). Than add weapon finesse to the above suggestions.

12 in CON I think you mean, maybe, no? Elves lose 2 CON. Halflings lose 2 STR. Dex monks need all the damage boosts they can get so less than max STR on character creation needs a really good reason imho.

[Gregor Wyrmbane]

 @Shia

Understood. My take on the OP was he was looking for RP/visual effect more than all out combat effectiveness. That's why I suggested 1 level of ranger to get the dual wield feat. It would be the easiest way to eliminate all the penalties otherwise associated with dual wielding without straying too far away from a "mostly" monk PC. And it also still gives access to Hide/MS as class skills, and gives him the ability to put some 1for1 points in Search.

If he is actually concerned about the most combat effective build, then obviously there are much better options available than Ranger. ;^)