85 réponses à ce sujet

[Shia Luck]

Lowlander wrote...

Shia Luck wrote...
... but 4 FTR levels will mean your AB ...
... But rogue gets these things and UMD which ...
... much weaker choice than a ftr/rog/monk ...

So we are pretty much at a Dual Wielding Fighter-Rogue, with monk there really only to enable the Kama cheese.

That seems a far cry from the OPs request:

" I would prefer pure monk if possible."

Not at all.  M12/F4/Rogue1 is mostly monk and incorporates everything I've said. Quite a few people beat me to suggestng what to do with a pure monk, so I thought to suggest what a little multiclassing could do. No harm in it is there? After all he did ask for dual kama wielding and your response was:

Lowlander wrote...

If pure monk, in the OC, I would stick with my hands, as they will do up to 1-20 damage, vs 1-6 with a kama.

*cheeky grin*

It's a shame it's a no spoiler section, because while in OC it doesn't really matter, there's a big reason for kamas in HotU (and most community modules). (OP: Pm me if you want to know what it is. That might make you choose fists for OC and kama for SoU and HotU).

Have fun

[Elhanan]

I had considered a STR based Monk/ DwD design, though it has not been fully tested. The DwD abilities appear to help against losing AC in certain circumstances which is rumored to be a weak point in some of the usual Monk builds.

It might not be worth it for the OC, but in more Epic mods like HotU you may see gains using Kama vs Unarmed.

[MrZork]

I agree with others here, both that unarmed is the way to go for pure monk in the OC and that multiclass has advantages for a dual wielder. But, the OP wants a dual wielder and pure monk (if possible, which it is in the OC and the higher SR from a pure build will come in handy at the end as well), so here's an attempt.

Ability Scores (final):
STR: 14
DEX: 16 (20)
CON: 14
WIS: 14
INT: 10
CHA: 8

Levels and Feats:
Human: (Quick to Master)
01: Monk(1): Ambidexterity, Two-Weapon Fighting
02: Monk(2):
03: Monk(3): Weapon Finesse
04: Monk(4): DEX+1, (DEX=17)
05: Monk(5)
06: Monk(6): Weapon Focus: Kama
07: Monk(7)
08: Monk(8): DEX+1, (DEX=18)
09: Monk(9): Toughness
10: Monk(10)
11: Monk(11)
12: Monk(12): DEX+1, Improved Critical: Kama, (DEX=19)
13: Monk(13)
14: Monk(14)
15: Monk(15): Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
16: Monk(16): DEX+1, (DEX=20)
17: Monk(17)
18: Monk(18): Blind Fight

Skills:
01: Discipline(4), Heal(2), Hide(2), Listen(4), Lore(2), Move Silently(2), Tumble(4),
02: Discipline(1), Heal(1), Hide(1), Listen(1), Tumble(1),
03: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Lore(1), Move Silently(1), Tumble(1),
04: Discipline(1), Heal(1), Hide(1), Listen(1), Tumble(1),
05: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Lore(1), Move Silently(1), Tumble(1),
06: Discipline(1), Heal(1), Hide(1), Listen(1), Tumble(1),
07: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Lore(1), Move Silently(1), Tumble(1),
08: Discipline(1), Heal(1), Hide(1), Listen(1), Tumble(1),
09: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Lore(1), Move Silently(1), Tumble(1),
10: Discipline(1), Heal(1), Hide(1), Listen(1), Tumble(1),
11: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Lore(1), Move Silently(1), Tumble(1),
12: Discipline(1), Heal(1), Hide(1), Listen(1), Tumble(1),
13: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Lore(1), Move Silently(1), Tumble(1),
14: Discipline(1), Heal(1), Hide(1), Listen(1), Tumble(1),
15: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Lore(1), Move Silently(1), Tumble(1),
16: Discipline(1), Heal(1), Hide(1), Listen(1), Tumble(1),
17: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Lore(1), Move Silently(1), Tumble(1),
18: Discipline(1), Heal(1), Hide(1), Listen(1), Tumble(1),

Summary (at level 18):
Hitpoints: 198 (max)
Skillpoints: 105
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 13/13/16
Saving Throw bonuses: Mind Effects: +2
BAB: 13
AB (max, naked): 19 (melee), 18 (ranged)
AC (naked): 24

Discipline 21(23), Heal 11(13), Hide 11(16), Listen 21(23), Lore 10(10), Move Silently 10(15), Tumble 21(26)

Notes:
Human for the extra feat and skill points, which will both be a little scarce in this build. Personally, I tend to like elf scouts for the automatic search mode and the extra DEX would be nice here, too, but the lower CON and HP will make for tougher going early on, especially since the missing feat would probably mean no toughness. (One could also build an elf sticking to 16 total DEX and use the extra points to bump INT and have some extra skill points to play with.)

I went with a DEX build, but shooting for some balance on the other initial stats. You will need DEX of 15 to get ambidexterity anyway, and there's no reason to stop on an odd number, so that's 16, at least. So this build is walking down the DEX road anyway. Of course, since this is a melee weapon build, a case can be made for STR for the extra damage, but that's spreading things pretty thin and leaving the character lacking in AC. (I agree with others that uncanny dodge would really round out this build. Oh, well.) And, DEX is increasing ranged AB, which is helping to keep you alive in the early going. Also, DEX will keep the reflex save high, which leverages evasion well.

Once the DEX choice is made, weapon finesse is needed. I like blind fight, though one might argue for a different feat at the end of the game. All the other feats are weapon feats that I assume the OP would want to get the most out of the dual-wielding kama aspect of the build. Note that no dual wielding is recommended early on, as the AB is really pretty low, at least until weapon finesse is acquired, and maybe not for a few levels after that for tougher opponents.

Skill points: Keep discipline and tumble maxed and I like a monk with a high listen skill to detect monsters around corners and stealthy baddies. The rest of the skill points should be chosen to taste, I tend to play monks as scout characters, thus the points in hide and move silently, which also work well with the DEX build. I think some points in heal are useful because healing kits are usable during melee without attacks of opportunity and there's the take 20 when used after combat. I also like to be able to identify my own stuff, but some people prefer swapping rings and using potions for that.

BTW, some skills end on numbers that don't help a level 18 build (e.g. tumble 21), but I chose them assuming the character would go on.

Also, I am assuming use of Tony K's AI, otherwise the henchies are just too annoying. That's also part of the reason for blind fight, even though it comes so late in the build. One obvious change would be to ignore skill points in lore and use henchmen for that (all but Tomi have good lore using TKAI and Sharwyn can identify pretty much anything).

Anyway, with a pair of decent kamas and the other DEX-, STR-, and WIS-boosting items in the OC, this character should be pretty impressive.

Modifié par MrZork, 28 avril 2011 - 08:40 .

[cds13]

Answering to Shia: yes, I would adjust CON as you said at least at 12, I was only pointing the fact that the STR12 and DEX 16 was a possible good choice for a DEXer. Maybe I have tried every possible combo in the OC (vanilla) and I played with 2 or 3 monk characters (I am ashamed of telling you how many characters I'm actually using...). I was experimenting and even tried the pre-defined types: (devote, peasant etc.). The kama oriented was the one which resisted more than others when I finally stated that the bare handed is the best choice. Kamas are good (single handed) only in the first levels but when the monk achieves speed through the levels and gets more stunning attacks than the choice is obvious... Then I tried the Tony K AI and the game added lots of variables that bosted the experience.
The best DEXer I ever created was a gnome Wizard/Monk with a single kama, dark fire over that kama and the lack of STR was compensated from the elemental damage: STR 6, DEX 14, CON 16, WIS 14. As a transmuter (the package I used more) it was easy to raise some stats by buffing myself on DEX and WIS. When I had to go heavy on blows I used to morph into a troll.

[Shia Luck]

Lowlander wrote...

Shia Luck wrote...
 After all he did ask for dual kama wielding and your response was:

I also repeatedly said the following which gets ignored:

Lowlander wrote...
...  we really need guidance from the OP, ...

Of the three interpretations of the OP request most have been jumping on the Kama/Mulit-class bandwagon, more or less ignoring the Pure monk aspect.

Perhaps that is because the OP was actually quite clear in the first place, no?

fetyr2004 wrote...

I ... really want to play a monk that dual worlds kamas... It is for the OC and I would prefer pure monk if possible. Thanks

Fetyr

Lowlander wrote...

Also, ...you seem be agreeing that without extensive Buffing the unarmed monk is better:

... Without flame weapon at the least,
unarmed is better than kama until +7 enhancement.

Absolutely. It is something I stated in several posts in this thread.

Shia Luck repeatedly wrote...
...If you are interested, kamas become better than lvl16 fists when they get to +7 enhancement...
...Without flame weapon at the least, unarmed is better than kama until +7 enhancement...

If you are arguing with me because you think I believe kamas are a more powerful choice for the OC, you need to start reading others' posts more carefully. Mine and the OPs at least anyway.

Lowlander wrote...
Why do you think any/all of those are available?? You added Rogue, not spell caster, so he is at the mercy of what he finds. This is the OC, not HotU. Pickings are more slim than your memory indicates (I played the OC over the last week).

So, you are saying you can't buy or find flame weapon scrolls in the OC? If that's true, you have a point. (doesn't affect the fact that the OP "REALLY WANTS" to play a dual wielding kama PC tho, just means he doesn't need the single rogue lvl for UMD).

Lowlander wrote...
I don't think it is any secret at this point that HotU is silly high level in magic and I would never recommend Unarmed Monk there.

Quite apart from that there's another reason why not to go unarmed in HotU, unless you really want to (like I did.)

Lowlander wrote...
But the OC is almost the only place I can think of where a pure monk using his fists has the advantage and he does have the advantage, not only from D20 damage but also Monk Gloves in the OC are much better than the crappy Kamas you will find.

If anyone ever had an inclination to play an pure unarmed Monk. This is the place to do it.

Can I just remind you, no-one is arguing this fact. It's just that the OP asked for kamas, no?

Modifié par Shia Luck, 29 avril 2011 - 09:35 .

[Shia Luck]

Lowlander wrote...

Shia Luck wrote...

Can I just remind you, no-one is arguing this fact. It's just that the OP asked for kamas, no?

More than one person argued that Kamas were better (Hip, Kail) because you could buff  them.  With your long litany about all the buffs you thought you could apply, I thought you were in this group. My mistake.

ok, np    (tbh I hate kamas, unarmed everytime (and I love monks so there's been a lot!), barring one halfling (yes, even with the penalty for the weapons being too big... )... depressingly effective for someone who hates kamas! *grin*

Lowlander wrote...

But I have read several of his other Build threads and participated in a one or two. He is new, ... interest in something else entirely than settling on a Monk.

If s/he's having fun and we help in some way then....

Have fun

[Shadooow]

Lowlander wrote...

01: Monk(1): Luck of Heroes, Blind Fight, {Cleave, Evasion, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist}
02: Monk(2): {Deflect Arrows}
03: Monk(3): Weapon Finesse
04: Monk(4): DEX+1, (DEX=17)
05: Monk(5)
06: Monk(6): Weapon Focus: Unarmed, {Knockdown, Improved Knockdown}
07: Monk(7)
08: Monk(8): DEX+1, (DEX=18)
09: Monk(9): Toughness, {Improved Evasion}
10: Monk(10)
11: Monk(11)
12: Monk(12): DEX+1, Improved Critical: Unarmed, (DEX=19)
13: Monk(13)
14: Monk(14)
15: Monk(15): Dodge
16: Monk(16): DEX+1, (DEX=20)
17: Monk(17)

Why you both are giving toughness such late? Also +1 saves aren't as usefull since monk has awesome saves himself and I wouldn't even take that feat at all. The only save you dont have enough is fort so if I would have no other choice I would take Great Fortitude instead. Blind fight is nearly useless in OC too.

So I would get Toughness and Dodge at first level and took Blind-fight either later or changed it for extra stunning fist/expertise/called shot.

But really I think that best would be to take ambidex/2weap fight feats (or 1lvl ranger which however excludes improved 2weap fight) and then use either dual kamas, single kama or unarmed depending on situation/enemy. Undead are good example where unarmed would be more effective (since there are good gloves in OC and cos they are generally resistant to slashing but not bludgeoning). As +1ab and 19-20 critical threat are reallly small advantages when unarmed has already better AB than dual kamas. So its not needed to take those. And this would also suit OP's request.

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 29 avril 2011 - 10:11 .

[HipMaestro]

ShaDoOoW wrote...

Lowlander wrote...
01: Monk(1): Luck of Heroes, Blind Fight, {Cleave, Evasion, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist}
02: Monk(2): {Deflect Arrows}
03: Monk(3): Weapon Finesse
04: Monk(4): DEX+1, (DEX=17)
05: Monk(5)
06: Monk(6): Weapon Focus: Unarmed, {Knockdown, Improved Knockdown}
07: Monk(7)
08: Monk(8): DEX+1, (DEX=18)
09: Monk(9): Toughness, {Improved Evasion}
10: Monk(10)
11: Monk(11)
12: Monk(12): DEX+1, Improved Critical: Unarmed, (DEX=19)
13: Monk(13)
14: Monk(14)
15: Monk(15): Dodge
16: Monk(16): DEX+1, (DEX=20)
17: Monk(17)

Why you both are giving toughness such late? Also +1 saves aren't as usefull since monk has awesome saves himself and I wouldn't even take that feat at all. The only save you dont have enough is fort so if I would have no other choice I would take Great Fortitude instead. Blind fight is nearly useless in OC too.

So I would get Toughness and Dodge at first level and took Blind-fight either later or changed it for extra stunning fist/expertise/called shot.

But really I think that best would be to take ambidex/2weap fight feats (or 1lvl ranger which however excludes improved 2weap fight) and then use either dual kamas, single kama or unarmed depending on situation/enemy. Undead are good example where unarmed would be more effective (since there are good gloves in OC and cos they are generally resistant to slashing but not bludgeoning). As +1ab and 19-20 critical threat are reallly small advantages when unarmed has already better AB than dual kamas. So its not needed to take those. And this would also suit OP's request.

Yah. I like this reasoning and is very much to the point for the OP's request.

And just for the record, I don't like DWing kama monks myself because the bludgeon damage always seems to be better.  And they can't be disarmed *lol* .  Still, kamas CAN provide access to some helpful enhancements that gloves generally will not provide and a pair of them doubles the coverage.  The OC provides some with OnHit: Doom, acid damage, +Discipline, +elemental res and +regen (I don't feel this info is spoiler-ific since a player still needs a random seeding to obtain them, so lotsa luck finding them).  The ki strike will handle up to +3 against DR although it doesn't help with the +AB... still those +3 kamas are also random drops (I think).  The OC is basically mid-magic at best (+3 to +5 max enhancements, the +5 mostly on range weapons).  There is just an ungodly amount of average loot that is provided is about all.

Early on, DWing kamas will provide a substantial APR boost until until the monk progression begins to take off and then becomes less (proportionately speaking) of an advantage.  And don't discount the possibility of the infamous halfling monk (OP didn't specifiy race) whose fists are... ummm... tiny... and will only begin to gain better UA damage from level 8 on (actually, for the first 3 levels, kamas are better damage, DW or not).

But I consider the OC as a testing environment to observe the general ways that a build can perform in combat and not challenging combat either .  Unfortunately, in high-magic environments, DWing kamas ALWAYS excel because of the diversity of weapon enhancements (double your properties, double your uberness).  As in HotU... seems somewhat unbalanced that little attention was focused on unarmed enhancements, but that is another story altogether....

My only comment about Blind fight in the OC is that I feel there are enough shadows and other concealed foes to make it worthwhile.  It made a difference each time I debug-tested it in Chapter 3 so I generally would advise taking it, if possible.  The concealed just die faster is all.  Then again, BF was never an original campaign feat so it is somewhat exploitive to select it while playing the OC.  As for Luck of Heroes, yes, monk is the ultimate base save class and with decent SR to boot ..so I would drop LoH in favor of "other".

[jmlzemaggo]

Off-Tops:
Blind Fight "works" against concealed foes? (by HipMaestro)
I never found any way to beat those guys, beside time, eventually a day of work.
That would be a nice info...
(I rarely take that feat, so... I wouldn't be surprised...)

[Kail Pendragon]

Lowlander wrote...
More than one person argued that Kamas were better (Hip, Kail) because you could buff  them. 

Well, kamas are indeed better damage output wise provided some environment criteria are met (availability of gear).

Also, if kamas are lacking in the OC (which i now know they are) and one wants to play kamas one has the option to get them. It's SP and everything is under the player's control.

[Shadooow]

Kail Pendragon wrote...
Also, if kamas are lacking in the OC (which i now know they are) and one wants to play kamas one has the option to get them. It's SP and everything is under the player's control.

This isn't valid argument.

If we would consider this in making builds we could also say the same for unarmed. There are mltiple +10 gloves with different elements available.

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 30 avril 2011 - 05:34 .

[Gregor Wyrmbane]

Lowlander wrote...

Kail Pendragon wrote...
Also, if kamas are lacking in the OC (which i now know they are) and one wants to play kamas one has the option to get them. It's SP and everything is under the player's control.

So you advocate cheating and giving yourself uber gear to compensate? 

Cheating?! In SP? Cheating who? Out of what?

[MrZork]

ShaDoOoW wrote...
Why you both are giving toughness such late?

For the build I posted, I agree that many people would want toughness sooner. I chose toughness when I did because that was the first opportunity to take it and still stick to the priorities that the OP seemd to be shooting for with regard to making the best dual-wielding kama build. In the build, level 9 was the first time there was a chance to take a feat that didn't directly benefit TWF or kama, so that's when I chose to slip in toughness. In general, the build posted doesn't really have many feats to spare. This is among the reasons why there are so many cheese fighter builds that add monk levels to get the monk APR progression but still keep the fighter's featgasmic progression. ;-)

BTW, aside from the specifics of this build, I personally am of mixed opinion as to how early to take toughness. In the first few levels, when it is only adding a handful of hit points, there are often other feats that can (offensively or defensively) have a greater impact on survivability. For the early OC, I am of the opinion that, in most situations (don't ask me about the Swords of Never or Bloated Dire Spiders...), the player has ample healing potions or healer's kits for encounters where one doesn't usually face too many tough opponents at once. It's possible to hold off on toughness and use potions of aid or endurance for the occasional HP bump. Later on, toughness adds a nice undispellable 10 or 15 HP when you face opponents who can debuff and where the number of opponents one must face at a time may mean it's less useful to use healing potions because the opponents are doing as much damage as the potions would heal or because taking a healing potion would get the character cut to ribbons by attacks of opportunity.

(Of course, I also could see an argument that monk speed means that monks work the opposite way; at higher levels, they can run away using high movement rate and high tumble and then safely use potions before rejoining the fray...)


BTW, I guess continuing the cheating discussion is drifting off-topic again, but I'd like to note that cheating doesn't always require that the person who gets cheated must be a different person than the cheater. The difference is that SP cheating occurs whenever the player thinks he is cheating and deprives himself of some of the fun and challenge he expects of the game. SP isn't a situation without any rules, but it is a situation when the player determines the rules and the level of challenge that makes the game fun. Whether the player has decided to draw the line at one point or another, whether to cross it is still the choice that defines cheating.

Modifié par MrZork, 01 mai 2011 - 07:03 .

[Shia Luck]

MrZork wrote...

BTW, I guess continuing the cheating discussion is drifting off-topic again,...

But the cheating discussion is such a fun one to resurect

...but I'd like to note that cheating doesn't always require that the person who gets cheated must be a different person than the cheater. The difference is that SP cheating occurs whenever the player thinks he is cheating and deprives himself of some of the fun and challenge he expects of the game.

...and notably, Kail didn't use the word 'cheat'. It was used against him as a challenge. So I think Gregor's point still stands, no?

SP isn't a situation without any rules, but it is a situation when the player determines the rules and the level of challenge that makes the game fun.

Exactly, yes. Good definiton.

Whether the player has decided to draw the line at one point or another, whether to cross it is still the choice that defines cheating.

So therefore the only person who can decide if something in an SP game is a cheat, is the player, no? *grin*

ON TOPIC: It's not toughness that is late imho, but blind fight. As you say, toughness doesn't make a lot of difference until later levels, but blind fight is a vital feat against concealed opponents, especially shadows that can kill with their str drain.

[The Vandhaal]

Hell JML Mon Ami!
last reply made 16 days ago?...must mean you are somewhat still alive and kicking :-) Hope you are doing well ( als with your Never winter nights stuff) Trioed to email you a couple of times but did not work . Well you know where and how to find me...oh yes and i have added a new place for old times sake http://vandhaal.wordpress.com/

btw jmlzemaggo??? :-)

[jmlzemaggo]

The Vandhaal wrote...

Hell JML Mon Ami!
last reply made 16 days ago?...must mean you are somewhat still alive and kicking :-) Hope you are doing well ( als with your Never winter nights stuff) Trioed to email you a couple of times but did not work . Well you know where and how to find me...oh yes and i have added a new place for old times sake http://vandhaal.wordpress.com/

btw jmlzemaggo??? :-)

I just couldn't believe it when I saw that name... What are you doing here! 
Sorry folks, this's got nothing to do with a monk build really, so I guess we're going to switch to a private area.
But I'm so glad you found me here! Old and new times sake... 

[MrZork]

Shia Luck wrote...

MrZork wrote...

...but I'd like to note that cheating doesn't always require that the person who gets cheated must be a different person than the cheater. The difference is that SP cheating occurs whenever the player thinks he is cheating and deprives himself of some of the fun and challenge he expects of the game.

...and notably, Kail didn't use the word 'cheat'. It was used against him as a challenge. So I think Gregor's point still stands, no?

I understand that Kail wasn't saying that cheating doesn't exist in the OC. And, maybe I misinterpreted Gregor's comment and if so I apologize for the confusion. I took the latter comment ("Cheating?! In SP? Cheating who? Out of what?") in the context of one of these broad declarations we see every so often on these boards that, "There is no cheating in SP", which, I will admit I have never understood because it seems to rely on the idea that cheating is only definable in situations where someone else might catch the cheater.

I also see the value in Lowlander's comment that it becomes difficult to discuss builds - especially ones designed for a particular situation, like this one - when one is willing to use tools not mentioned by the person asking for build advice and not intended for normal play in that situation in such a way that they significantly changes the value of each build. I actually play a somewhat tweaked version of the OP, when I play it, because the extra options make it more fun to me, but I wouldn't propose a build for someone else based on my modifications because he won't be using them and no one would know what I was talking about.


Back to the OP's requested build, I agree that Blind Fight is probably a better feat to take early on in this build than Toughness. Dealing with the various Shadows, Invisible Stalkers, and even Darkness-casting drow in the OC makes Blind Fight pretty valuable. And, the re-roll in the case of misses versus concealed opponents makes it even more worthwhile to players who have a high APR. If I were reposting my suggested build, I would swap the two feats to get Blind Fight earlier.

[Kail Pendragon]

Lowlander wrote...

Kail Pendragon wrote...
Also, if kamas are lacking in the OC (which i now know they are) and one wants to play kamas one has the option to get them. It's SP and everything is under the player's control.

So you advocate cheating and giving yourself uber gear to compensate? 

Cheating is not possible in SP.

If altering balance is what you are concerned about then kamas, as you pointed out, are lacking enchantment and properties wise in the OC. Dropping some in game, according to what is proper to drop given where in the campaign you are, is fixing a weapon availability issue.

Modifié par Kail Pendragon, 02 mai 2011 - 07:34 .