85 réponses à ce sujet

[Kail Pendragon]

MrZork wrote...
I understand that Kail wasn't saying that cheating doesn't exist in the OC.

I was saying to correct the kama availability issue in the OC with a practical method.

But indeed cheating does not exist in the OC (or in any SP environment).

And, maybe I misinterpreted Gregor's comment and if so I apologize for the confusion. I took the latter comment ("Cheating?! In SP? Cheating who? Out of what?") in the context of one of these broad declarations we see every so often on these boards that, "There is no cheating in SP", which, I will admit I have never understood because it seems to rely on the idea that cheating is only definable in situations where someone else might catch the cheater.

Not at all, it's based on the fact that you can't break any rules in the OC since it is you to shape them up with your actions. Whatever you choose to do it is allowed, so no way to do anything that is not allowed.

I also see the value in Lowlander's comment that it becomes difficult to discuss builds - especially ones designed for a particular situation, like this one - when one is willing to use tools not mentioned by the person asking for build advice and not intended for normal play in that situation in such a way that they significantly changes the value of each build.

Builds are first compared on an even field. Then, according to the specificities of the particular environment, one can be decreed to be superior to another. In the OC's case, the only reason why unarmed i sbetter is because enchanted kamas are lacking. An issue which is easy to fix, especially since the OP seems to want to play kamas. If the kama unavailability potentially hurts the OP's enjoyment of the game we can easily suggest a way to solve the issue, which is to spawn in proper gear.

[Shia Luck]

MrZork wrote...
I understand that Kail wasn't saying that cheating doesn't exist in the OC...

Only in MP.

MrZork wrote...
...And, maybe I misinterpreted Gregor's comment and if so I apologize for the confusion. I took the latter comment ("Cheating?! In SP? Cheating who? Out of what?") in the context of one of these broad declarations we see every so often on these boards that, "There is no cheating in SP"...

That's exactly my interpretation too. If we're wrong, hopefully he'll correct us.

MrZork wrote...
...which, I will admit I have never understood because it seems to rely on the idea that cheating is only definable in situations where someone else might catch the cheater...

Errr, I think that is not the idea. There's a logical argument making cheating impossible. But for me anyway, It's not about whether anyone can catch the "cheater", but whether anyone feels cheated. If a player changes the conditions of the game in SP and doesn't feel cheated by their own actions, and doesn't claim scores/acheivements/whatever as if they hadn't changed the conditions.., in other words, if, they admit to changing the conditions, (or if you prefer, that they cheated), then where exactly is the cheat? Who has lost something or been cheated?

For example, if a player chooses to specialise in a certain weapon and there no examples of that weapon dropping, (a situation many SP players experience in many community modules, and, it seems, the OC and EXP), the player may feel cheated by the developers of the game for not thinking of him/her. If s/he chooses to bring in weapons that increase enjoyment of the game fr the nly person affected... how has anyone been cheated?

MrZork wrote...
I also see the value in Lowlander's comment that it becomes difficult to discuss builds

If someone had said a kama wielder is better because you can import kamas, I'd understand everyone's objections. But no one has said that, no?  Like I seem to keep mentioning. The following fact is not in doubt.

Kail Pendragon wrote...

So aye, if there are not good kamas (and I mean good as in line with a mid magic environment, roughly speaking +5 with elemental damage and possibly keen by lvl 15) then unarmed delivers more damage per round.

Modifié par Shia Luck, 02 mai 2011 - 09:35 .

[Shadooow]

Kail Pendragon wrote...

Builds are first compared on an even field. Then, according to the specificities of the particular environment, one can be decreed to be superior to another. In the OC's case, the only reason why unarmed i sbetter is because enchanted kamas are lacking. An issue which is easy to fix, especially since the OP seems to want to play kamas. If the kama unavailability potentially hurts the OP's enjoyment of the game we can easily suggest a way to solve the issue, which is to spawn in proper gear.

Neither this is valid argument. Why is unarmed worse in most environments? Because gloves cannot be enchanted with spell. An issu whis is easy to fix!

Or because they cannot have enhancement bonus/keen, also easy to fix...

[Shia Luck]

[quote]Lowlander wrote...

[quote]Kail Pendragon wrote...
 the only reason why unarmed i sbetter
is because enchanted kamas are lacking. An issue which is easy to fix,

[/quote]

[quote]Shia Luck wrote...
If someone had said a kama wielder is better because you can import kamas, I'd understand everyone's objections. But no one has said that, no?
[/quote]

Above your post is essentially the same thing re-worded. Saying the only reason they unarmed is better is because Kamas are lacking and you can fix that... [/quote]

I disagree entirely... I am sure Kail doesn't need me to argue for him but seeing as it was directed to me I'll point out parts of Kail's posts people seem to be ignoring.

[quote]Kail Pendragon wrote...Builds are first compared on an even
field. Then, according to the specificities of the particular
environment, one can be decreed to be superior to another.[/quote]

[quote]Kail Pendragon wrote... haven't touched the OC in a long while....
So
aye, if there are not good kamas (and I mean good as in line with a mid
magic environment, roughly speaking +5 with elemental damage and
possibly keen by lvl 15) then unarmed delivers more damage per round.



[/quote]

[quote]Kail Pendragon wrote...
In the OC's case, the only reason why unarmed i sbetter is because enchanted kamas are lacking. An issue which is easy to fix, especially since the OP seems to want to play kamas. If the kama unavailability potentially hurts the OP's enjoyment of the game we can easily suggest a way to solve the issue, which is to spawn in proper gear.
[/quote]

[quote]Lowlander wrote...
Unarmed is better. Only by twinking in overpowered gear can you make up the difference. [/quote]

In the context of the OC based on your reporting of the gear.....   Yes, yes, a thousand times, yes. NO ONE is disagreeing with this !!!! How many times do we have to agree? 

[quote]Lowlander wrote...
All weapons drops for every class seem to be limited to +3, why do Monks need significantly better Kamas imported?? Or should we all be importing +5 weapons??[/quote]

I thought you said ...
[quote]Lowlander wrote...... I actually tested.  As a 17th level monk save-reload mined a boss weapon drop chest in Ch 3.

Gloves dropped are vastly superior. All were +5 AB, + D6 elemental damage. (no lesser gloves dropped).
The only Kamas with any special abilities dropped were +1.
Vanillas +3 Kamas also drop. It would be silly to use a +1 kama to get  +1 regen in combat.

So +3 Kamas with no extras vs +5 gloves with D6 elemental.
[/quote]

[quote]Lowlander wrote......
It seems the same people I see complain how easy the Official Campaigns is, are the ones advocating using debug commands to pimp out their characters. A correlation perhaps. [/quote]


Personally I play games at least once through without changing anything. With NWN OC I never played it again because the exp and community stuff is so much better. But when I do replay something, then I may change things. Does that make me a bad person?

[quote]Lowlander wrote...
I shouldn't be surprised in this shortcut, instant gratifications society that so many just use cheat codes to pimp their characters rather than deal with the constraints of the game. But this Attitude makes me sick. 
[/quote]

In MP my NWN friends and I stick to very strict rules about equipment. Otherwise we'd be cheating. In SP tho???

Modifié par Shia Luck, 02 mai 2011 - 10:53 .

[VPJ]

As mentioned previously. I still consider it cheating in SP. What do you think it is? People search for "cheat codes".

I realize I may be in a minority in a world were most students cheat and are proud of the outcomes they achieve with cheating. In everything I do cheating devalues the outcome, that applies in games/school/work. SP/MP whatever.

So you play through one time only, with no reloads?  Isn't knowledge of what is around the next corner more detrimental to whatever lofty plateau you aspire to in gaming than using the console to spawn a couple of +5 kamas?

So for me cheating devalues outcomes, in any environment. The people who advocate cheating, well just about everything they comment on is looked upon through the lens that they may be cheating (whatever they call it), so their input is devalued in my eyes.

Really?  I can think of many reasons to cheat, use house rules, or whatever one wants to call it.  Maybe someone's in a hurry...maybe they've played through several times and want to use a kama-wielding monk, but there's limited gear.  Whatever.  It's their game and the idea is to enjoy it without ruining someone else's enjoyment. 

Frankly, if you get pleasure Rambo-ing your way through an SP game on its hardest setting without reloading, I wish you well.  But don't expect me to gawk at your elite gaming prowess or share your righteous indignation that others may use the console for whatever reason they like.


Edit:  Spelling correction

Modifié par VPJ, 03 mai 2011 - 02:14 .

[Kail Pendragon]

Lowlander wrote...

I still consider it cheating in SP.

What you consider it to be is irrelvant and does not change what it is. There is no cheating in SP, It is simply impossible to cheat in SP, period.

What do you think it is?

Game customization

People search for "cheat codes". 

This is one of the dumbest thing you could say (if you need to be explained why, I have no interest in discussing it). And in NWN there are no cheat codes, but rather consolle commands.

I realize I may be in a minority in a world were most students cheat and are proud of the outcomes they achieve with cheating. In everything I do cheating devalues the outcome, that applies in games/school/work. SP/MP whatever.

I am less interested in discussing anything around the game with those who do cheat, because we aren't talking about the same environment.  Like when you said you don't care about EXP penalties in your builds, now I wonder is that because you just give yourself a little dm_giveXP you feel entitled to because of that penalty.

So for me cheating devalues outcomes, in any environment. The people who advocate cheating, well just about everything they comment on is looked upon through the lens that they may be cheating (whatever they call it), so their input is devalued in my eyes.

This is getting really ludicrous. SP= single player. There's no one else but the (single) player. There is no cheating at all, the rules are (dynamically) set by the player herself.

And who is making undue comparisons here? We all have come to the conclusion that in the OC unarmed is better because of the relative availability of gloves and kamas. This has nothing to do with the OP playing her own personalized OC with better kamas available for his/her own enjoyment. Or playing it with a lvl 40 character, 255 in all abilities and uber gear for the matter. Why should we go through such trivialities and self evident points?

[Kail Pendragon]

ShaDoOoW wrote...

Kail Pendragon wrote...

Builds are first compared on an even field. Then, according to the specificities of the particular environment, one can be decreed to be superior to another. In the OC's case, the only reason why unarmed is better is because enchanted kamas are lacking. An issue which is easy to fix, especially since the OP seems to want to play kamas. If the kama unavailability potentially hurts the OP's enjoyment of the game we can easily suggest a way to solve the issue, which is to spawn in proper gear.

Neither this is valid argument. Why is unarmed worse in most environments? Because gloves cannot be enchanted with spell. An issu whis is easy to fix!

Or because they cannot have enhancement bonus/keen, also easy to fix...

That is changing the way the game works vs changing availability of gear in a given environment. Different stuff. Doable, surely (well, within technical limits); desirable, sometimes; not the same league though.

I offered the OP an easy way to put the kama monk on a more even field with the unarmed one in the OC environment for his/her potential better enjoyment. If you want do the same and offer your solution.

[Kail Pendragon]

ShaDoOoW wrote...

Kail Pendragon wrote...
Also, if kamas are lacking in the OC (which i now know they are) and one wants to play kamas one has the option to get them. It's SP and everything is under the player's control.

This isn't valid argument.

If we would consider this in making builds we could also say the same for unarmed. There are mltiple +10 gloves with different elements available.

What is not a valid argument? The OP might find kamas lacking compared to gloves, he/she can spawn better ones in. There is an unbalance in weapon availability which is fixable. End of story.

[Elhanan]

I suggest using the PGC3 mod, and import the Legit character to and from the shop between Chp. The only problem here is my lack of self-discipline when I go to such a shop. But this appears to be a valid method of compromise.

[Kail Pendragon]

Lowlander wrote...

Whether it is cheating, is clearly a matter of opinion, though this is a new one on me.

It's not a matter of opinion. It is facts. You cannot possibly cheat in SP. Period.

I have seen the, "sure it's cheating but so what" line before, but playing semantic games and claiming there is no such thing as single player cheating is something I haven't seen before.

It's not semantics, it's only logic. It's impossible to cheat in SP mode.

There have been cheat codes in single player games from beginning and I always remember them being called cheats and never any real argument around it. I found them for NWN by doing a Google for "NWN cheat codes" and I found:

http://www.gamespot....erwinternights/cheats.html
Look what they say:
"DebugMode 1
Enables Cheats"

Things like
"dm_god  
God mode"

Are clearly not customizations.

As I said, if you are so limited that you don't get it, then it's not worth discussing it with you.

I don't see why you are engaging in semantic games here. You wouldn't care if it was called "CheatCodes=1". You have an absolutist view that there is no such thing as cheating in single player games.  Which I think is ludicrous.

Ludicrous is your incapacity to follow a perfectly linear argument. You cannot cheat in SP, not me nor you nor anybody. It is simply impossible. And that's because you cannot break any rules, since they are dynamically set by your own choices.

Whether you call cheating or "customizations" the point remains that in order to have a meaningful discussion, we have to be talking about the same "uncustomized" game.

Which we have done in determining whether kama or unarmed is superior in the OC.

And which has nothing to do with suggesting ways to get better kamas in game.

Kail Pendragon wrote...
What is not a valid argument? The OP
might find kamas lacking compared to gloves, he/she can spawn better
ones in. There is an unbalance in weapon availability which is fixable.
End of story.

What imbalance?? As is often pointed out. You can lose a slot by using gloves.

All the top weapon(not just Kama) drops in the campaigns appear to be +3. Which you can combine with Gauntlets of Ogre power, for +4 attack/+4 damage total.

So all the weapon drops (not just Kamas, everyone) will give you +4 attack, +4 damage.
The glove drops are +5, +d6 elemental, which is +5 attack, +3.5 damage(average).

Exactly what big imbalance needs to be addressed? It looks like this was reasonbly well balanced between weapons and gloves available in the OC.  I don't see any large imbalance that needs correcting.

Bolded for you. Perceived imbalance. That's all that matters. It's SP, rules are made up by the single player.

Also you were suggesting this to a new player, I have been playing for years, and I wouldn't know how to find the codes for Kamas to spawn in. If you are going to suggest "customizations" to new players, you need to give them more info on how to do it. It certainly isn't a simple matter to make the "customization" you suggest.

I do not need to do anything. If the OP is interested he/she can ask. And you don' tneed cheat codes at all.

Modifié par Kail Pendragon, 03 mai 2011 - 10:28 .

[Shadooow]

Kail Pendragon wrote...
Ludicrous is your incapacity to follow a perfectly linear argument. You cannot cheat in SP, not me nor you nor anybody. It is simply impossible. And that's because you cannot break any rules, since they are dynamically set by your own choices.

You are wrong. There wasn't any multiplayer games when cheats were first introduced. Cheats are cheats no matter if you are cheating only yourself or other players in MP.

The OC or any other game was designed without cheats. If you are spawning uber gear or using God mode you are breaking the basic rule of the module design.

I am very amazed that its you, ECB guild creator (or at least still active member), who advocating this stuff.

Shia Luck
If someone had said a kama wielder is better
because you can import kamas, I'd understand everyone's objections. But
no one has said that, no?  Like I seem to keep mentioning. The
following fact is not in doubt.

But thats how I and Lowlander probably too understood it.

What else mean: "yes unarmed is better then BUT you can import uber kamas" ? I can't see any other interpretation than "if you import uber kamas, then unarmed won't be better" and thats why I said it cannot be a valid argument since you can argument this with everything. The difference is only if you need to import stuff from vault, or you need to modify 2da, or you need to cheat ability score. And while there are minor differences in the way how this is done its still the same thing.

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 03 mai 2011 - 11:04 .

[Kail Pendragon]

Lowlander wrote...

Kail Pendragon wrote...

It's not semantics, it's only logic. It's impossible to cheat in SP mode.

As I said, if you are so limited that you don't get it, then it's not worth discussing it with you.

Ludicrous is your incapacity to follow a perfectly linear argument. You cannot cheat in SP, not me nor you nor anybody. It is simply impossible. And that's because you cannot break any rules, since they are dynamically set by your own choices.

Wow. It is like watching politicians spin.

Get indignant, shout and stamp your feet and repeat the lie long enough and loud enough and you think people will believe you.

As Shadow and and I have mentioned. There have been cheat codes since the beginning of computer games, long before there were multiplayer games.

Today there are huge pages listing cheat codes for every game on every platform, like cheat code central.
http://www.cheatcc.c...verwintern.html

To keep ranting that single player cheating doesn't exist, is denial of reality.

"Cheating codes" is lingo. Using "cheating codes" in SP is not cheating, simply because cheating (as in the meaning of cheating in plain english) is not possible in SP.

To keep saying otherwise is the absolute denial of intelligence.

 

[Kail Pendragon]

ShaDoOoW wrote...

Kail Pendragon wrote...
Ludicrous is your incapacity to follow a perfectly linear argument. You cannot cheat in SP, not me nor you nor anybody. It is simply impossible. And that's because you cannot break any rules, since they are dynamically set by your own choices.

You are wrong. There wasn't any multiplayer games when cheats were first introduced. Cheats are cheats no matter if you are cheating only yourself or other players in MP.

Cheating codes are not cheats. You cannot cheat yourself. Period.

The OC or any other game was designed without cheats. If you are spawning uber gear or using God mode you are breaking the basic rule of the module design.

Which are not the rules of SP.

I am very amazed that its you, ECB guild creator (or at least still active member), who advocating this stuff.

I'm amazed that you don't get a simple logical statement involving the definition of cheating. Actually no, since I read your ludicrous discussion of ILR "fixing" on the NWN Wikia pages. Educate yourself in logical reasoning before opening your mouth.

What else mean: "yes unarmed is better then BUT you can import uber kamas" ? I can't see any other interpretation than "if you import uber kamas, then unarmed won't be better" and thats why I said it cannot be a valid argument since you can argument this with everything.

And so what? That is not the argument. The argument is making the kama option better for the OP. Importing kamas is one way to make kamas better which might very well be what the OP wants. I offered the OP one possible solution to the issue of not getting good kamas in the OC (and by analogy to the isue of not getting good specific weapon types in any module he/she might play).

[Shadooow]

Two guys advocating cheating and offencing and insulting those who don't think thats right? Im stepping out of this thread right now.

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 03 mai 2011 - 02:09 .

[Kail Pendragon]

ShaDoOoW wrote...

Two guys advocating cheating and offencing and insulting those who don't think thats right? Im stepping out of this thread right now.

Your lack of intelligence is an insult to those who have one... I'm not surprised since that ILR discussion. Luckily you're leaving so we won't have your nonsense anymore, I can oly say: good riddance.

And no one here is advocating cheating, since there is no cheating in SP.

Modifié par Kail Pendragon, 03 mai 2011 - 05:06 .

[Kail Pendragon]

Lowlander wrote...

Kail Pendragon wrote...
Cheating codes are not cheats. You cannot cheat yourself. Period.

Wow. What nonsense.

There's no nonsense but your obtuse denial of the self evident truth. There can be no cheating where the rules are dynamically set by the choices taken by the (single) player. One just cannot cheat oneself.

[MrZork]

Kail Pendragon wrote...
It's not semantics, it's only logic. It's impossible to cheat in SP mode.

How is this not a semantic issue when the crux of disagreement is what definition one prefers for "cheating"? In one definition, SP cheating is defined out of existence by saying that any breach of the rules is actually a redefinition of the rules. In another definition, the rules don't change until the player makes a conscious decision to play by different rules and, until then, breaking those rules is cheating. And, we could go on, but this is clearly a semantic issue.

Kail Pendragon wrote...
What you consider it to be is irrelvant and does not change what it is. There is no cheating in SP, It is simply impossible to cheat in SP, period.

I am curious about such absolutist statements.

Let's say that there is one definition wherein, for a person to be said to cheat, he must break rules that he is unable to change and/or he must disadvantage some party other than himself by not following the rules. Sort of a Solo-Rules-Don't-Really-Exist system.

And, there is another definition wherein a person can be said to cheat when he doesn't follow the rules he has agreed to follow, even if the agreement is with himself and no one else is harmed by violating the rules. Along the lines of an I-Cheated-In-My-Diet system.

(Obviously, in both cases, the person would understand the rules and be able to follow them.)

Now, I have no problem with people who prefer the first definition; we could discuss aspects of the SP game indefinitely without using the term cheating. But, it eludes me why the first definition (or equivalent) is the only one suitable for discussion. Please explain why the second definition logically cannot be used. (Obviously, without circularly insisting that it be compatible with the first definition.)

[Shia Luck]

ShaDoOoW wrote...

Shia Luck
If someone had said a kama wielder is better
because you can import kamas, I'd understand everyone's objections. But
no one has said that, no?  Like I seem to keep mentioning. The
following fact is not in doubt.

But thats how I and Lowlander probably too understood it.

What else mean: "yes unarmed is better then BUT you can import uber kamas" ? I can't see any other interpretation than "if you import uber kamas, then unarmed won't be better" and thats why I said it cannot be a valid argument since you can argument this with everything. The difference is only if you need to import stuff from vault, or you need to modify 2da, or you need to cheat ability score. And while there are minor differences in the way how this is done its still the same thing.

...but the OP "really wants to" dual wield kamas. He doesn't want to play unarmed. I saw Kail as suggesting a way to solve a potential problem. The two statements were in two seperate posts, about two seperate things, not in the same sentence with a "but" to create confusion. Discussions could be a lot less frictional if people used the quote button. Here's what he actually said, (in two seperate posts).

Kail Pendragon wrote...

So aye, if there are not good kamas (and I mean good as in line with a mid magic environment, roughly speaking +5 with elemental damage and possibly keen by lvl 15) then unarmed delivers more damage per round.

Kail Pendragon wrote...
Also, if kamas are lacking in the OC (which i now know they are) and one wants to play kamas one has the option to get them. It's SP and everything is under the player's control.

MrZork wrote...

Kail Pendragon wrote...
It's not semantics, it's only logic. It's impossible to cheat in SP mode.

How is this not a semantic issue when the crux of disagreement is what definition one prefers for "cheating"?

Lowlander wrote...
    I have seen the, "sure it's cheating but so what" line before, but playing semantic games and claiming there is no such thing as single player cheating is something I haven't seen before.

Well, I agree with you MrZork. A lot of philosophy has to start with definitions. Sometimes that is exactly what philosophy is about. I think calling something semantics as a way to dismiss the argument is a rhetorical device that misses the point of semantics. Semantics is the study of the meaning of language. This discussion has become about the meaning of cheating (at least until the OP pops up again *grin*).

MrZork wrote...
But, it eludes me why the first definition (or equivalent) is the only one suitable for discussion. Please explain why the second definition logically cannot be used. (Obviously, without circularly insisting that it be compatible with the first definition.)

And, there is another definition wherein a person can be said to cheat when he doesn't follow the rules he has agreed to follow, even if the agreement is with himself and no one else is harmed by violating the rules. Along the lines of an I-Cheated-In-My-Diet system.

So let's say I accept that definiton as plausible for now. My friends who 'cheat in their diet' and say that exact phrase, (me included *grin* ), aren't giving themselves a hard time about it. It's a joke. Giving yourself a moment off for a treat of chocolate or ice cream or something. The extent to which you do it matters of course. If it's not rare then you are no longer on a diet, which is where Kail's definiton comes in. I think like many things... there's a grey line, not black OR white.

If, however, you were on a "I'll diet with you" deal with another person and started lying then that is a different case altogether. But, if it is necessary to 'cheat' 5% of the time in order to do 95% of the diet then... I really can't see an issue. So long as people are honest about it.

If, you were obese and had to diet to save your life, then I personally agree you could cheat yourself by not sticking to the diet.

As I have said, I go with the "someone has to get hurt in order for it to be a cheat" philosophy. (tho I will not accept anyone's position that they can be hurt by my "cheating" in an SP game when I do not use that info to discuss builds or include it in any way in any sort of MP discussion or play.




Anyway, I got a question for everyone. If I play HotU, for example, and I use console commands to spawn in low level magic items and reduce my ability scores making my character much weaker, have I cheated?

Have fun

[The Amethyst Dragon]

Not an entirely serious observation here, but am I the only one that keeps seeing the title of this thread as it sounds out loud?

monk, build

As far is a monk dual-wielding kamas...My personal preference is elven monk for a few levels (for the initial bonus to dexterity), take weapon finesse so that your attacks are dex-based, take a few levels of ranger (for the free ambidexterity and two-weapon fighting while not wearing armor, which will be all you as a monk anyway), then the rest monk again. Not very strong for the original campaigns, but in modules/PWs where you can get enchanted kamas of various sorts, the shear number of attacks when using flurry of blows has potential for lots of total damage (and if you manage to work in vampiric regeneration on each kama...free healing!).

In my game, I actually have a character with a similar build, but he's strength-based with devastating critical via kama (with magical keen, vampiric regen, bonus damage-enchanted kamas) and improved critical with kamas...so it's a mix of just killing his foes and taking their health for himself as he slices them to pieces.