1342 réponses à ce sujet

[Seboist]

I wonder what happens to Gavin Archer if Shepard sends David to Grissom academy?

[Seboist]

michaelrsa wrote...

My biggest problem with Overlord is that helping Legion makes war with the geth no longer that big a concern. It basically nullifies a great deal of handing David over to Cerberus.

Legion never guarantees long term peace with organics.

[Someone With Mass]

michaelrsa wrote...

My biggest problem with Overlord is that helping Legion makes war with the geth no longer that big a concern. It basically nullifies a great deal of handing David over to Cerberus.

BioWare must've known they dun goofed on that part, because the geth shooting at me even after I reprogrammed them was one big WTF moment.

[KnightofPhoenix]

michaelrsa wrote...

The True Geth haven't ventured outside the Veil in 300 years. They might not be interested in working with us but they aren't interested in war with us either.

Can you guarantee that this will be their permanent position? Can you guarantee that the Geth can't or won't evolve in their beliefs (like some of them already did)? Even Legion didn't sound so sure, why do you?

That's why I'd keep a weapon like OVerlord ready as backup. I would not base a foreign policy on the supposition that the Geth are always going to be harmless. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 26 avril 2011 - 10:41 .

[Dean_the_Young]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
And to be fairer even still, TIM was getting regular reports from Archer in the first place. Overlord wasn't some new project: by the time it broke, Overlord had been going on for some time with no problems and no signs of any sort of breakthrough that might introduce such. When a potential breakthrough was discovered, a report was incoming.

The way I understood it is that TIM was going to cancel the project because it's a failure, which forced Dr. Archer to be extreme and a bit careless in his experiment to bring results. So maybe if TIM wants to cancel a project, he should send personnel to shut it down immediately instead of risk having someone desperate do something like this.

Of course as it turns out, it was for the best (David as Overlord is an invaluable asset) and Cerberus delt with it. But thiis a flaw that ought to be rectified.

Not having any forseeable timeline isn't a sustainable management style. If a project director doesn't know when the arbitrary time limit is approaching, the project director can't really organize the pace of research as well. Imagine any school student who was never given any indication when any given assignment was due: does such a context remove the fear/need for speed of a last minute rush and convince the student to take the time to carefully, thoughtfully go through the work? Or does the spectre that any day might be the last day, and that any delay may be fatal, spur hasty work from the start?

Dr. Archer being 'forced' by anything but his own pride and ego is a bit of a stretch. He didn't get desperate and suddenly get the idea to throw his brother in and see what happened: he learned that his brother had potential at the eleventh hour for entirely independent reasons.  Why he couldn't relay this new, novel discovery in exchange for an extension is not apparent: if TIM says go for it, then the project is extended and failure may still be averted. If TIM says no, then the project's results lay increasingly on TIM for cutting the project when results were starting to be developed.

[Shibby Razel]

Shepard was kinda forced into working for them, I mean they did Rez him lolz

[KnightofPhoenix]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Not having any forseeable timeline isn't a sustainable management style.

Nor am I saying that this should be how they run things. What I am saying is that if TIM deemed a project useless, he should send personnel to shut it down immediately, especially when it comes to sensitive tech.

Why he couldn't relay this new, novel discovery in exchange for an extension is not apparent:

And that's the problem. TIM needs more direct oversight. Even if secret (one secret agent reporting directly to TIM to make sure that the cell is doing what is being reported, for exampe). I am not sure Archer even told TIM about David.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 26 avril 2011 - 10:52 .

[Dean_the_Young]

michaelrsa wrote...

The True Geth haven't ventured outside the Veil in 300 years. They might not be interested in working with us but they aren't interested in war with us either.

And for the last 298 years ago, the Heretics were True Geth and weren't interested in war with us either. And then they changed their minds and massacred a couple colonies and tried for galactic genocide on a whim.

Geth change their minds like any other species. The current geth position is in no sense safe to be presumed the geth position in a week, or a year, or a hundred years from now. All it takes is stimuli to change the Geth, and stimuli are unavoidable.

If Cerberus fails to hack them then that will change. Is that a risk we want to take?

If the Geth would attack the galaxy because of what one small group can do to them... then yes. The Geth are already irrational actors who can't perceive why deterence against them has and is being justified by their own actions, and the geth are very much a threat we need a defense against.

[Dean_the_Young]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Not having any forseeable timeline isn't a sustainable management style.

No am I saying that this should be how they run things. What I am saying is that if TIM deemed a project useless, he should send personnel to shut it down immediately, especially when it comes to sensitive tech.

Which ends up implementing exactly what you're trying to avoid. If the project doesn't know when TIM is going to deem a project useless, every day is potentially the last day. Stress of being deemed useless puts the pressure on producing results. Pressure to produce results makes breaking ethics and safety regulations more appealing. Pressure to take break safety regulations leads to more risks. More risks allows for more disasters.

Immediate, unpredictable, and arbitrary termination isn't a method that promotes safety, caution, and pacing. Which is what would have avoided the problems in regards to Overlord.

Why he couldn't relay this new, novel discovery in exchange for an extension is not apparent:

And that's the problem. TIM needs more direct oversight. Even if secret (one secret agent reporting directly to TIM to make sure that the cell is doing what is being reported, for exampe). I am not sure Archer even told TIM about David.

TIM does have oversight: he's getting regular reports, and the option for special reports as well. Short of demanding over-the-shoulder micromanaging, which every Cerberus project and participant to date has mentioned how the lack of that is one of the better parts of working with Cerberus, you're always going to have periodic, not continuous, updates from a cell-structure network.

Remember, Cerberus is a cell network. For cells to be able to work as cells, they have to be autonomous. Part of autonomy is, well, not being constantly watched, both from a security and a practical standpoint. This has advantages. This has disadvantages. But constant oversight destroyes the advantages of segmentation.

David was an eleventh-hour discovery. Having reports come in every (figurative) hour, if they weren't already, wouldn't change when problems come up inbetween the hour.

[Dean_the_Young]

michaelrsa wrote...

I'll agree you need some sort of deterrent against any group you think might pose a threat.

It's just that the geth's nature makes it a lot more difficult to make a deterrent.

If you're going with some sort of hacking attempt you have to take into account that the geth are constantly changing an adapting their code all the time. You'd have to test this weapon all the time on new geth run times to ensure it's effectiveness.

The geth are going to notice if you contact their network on a regular basis to download runtimes.

Overlord doesn't 'hack' Geth or alter their programming, which is what Geth are protected against. Overlord provides the equivalent of Jesus descending from Heaven and asking all the Good Christians to stop fighting, or at least fight those people instead. It only affects those with the religious inclination... which is a fundamentalism that even the Geth don't understand.

[Dean_the_Young]

michaelrsa wrote...

thurmanator692 wrote...
Heretics are openly hostile, thats less friendly than the true geth's isolationism.

This. I'll take isolationism over hostility with the geth any day.

Besides, let's say Cerberus does continue with Overlord. If they attempt to take control of the geth and fail then the geth will have every reason to cease their isolation and wipe us out.

Why would it be logical for the Geth to attack the galaxy over the action of a small, ostracized group not affiliated or even allied to the galaxy?

The geth have proven to be extremely resistant to any hacking attempts short of a Reaper virus. I'd bet you more than anything that any attempt by Cerberus to control them would ultimately fail and lead to war.

War with who, besides Cerberus?

And given that Overlord, well, succeded without hacking Geth...

[KnightofPhoenix]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Immediate, unpredictable, and arbitrary termination isn't a method that promotes safety, caution, and pacing. Which is what would have avoided the problems in regards to Overlord.

What I meant, is that if TIM deems a project useless in accordance to its designated timeline where results are expected but not met, then TIM should make sure the project is shut down. What apparently happened in Overlord is TIM saying the project is not providing results and shutting the project down, then Archer freaking out. Unless I missed something and Dr. Archer is assuming that TIM wanted to shut it down.

Remember, Cerberus is a cell network. For cells to be able to work as cells, they have to be autonomous. Part of autonomy is, well, not being constantly watched, both from a security and a practical standpoint. This has advantages. This has disadvantages. But constant oversight destroyes the advantages of segmentation.

The oversight does not have to be explicit, it can be secret. At least for very sensitive projects like Overlord. David's existence and potential should have been known by TIM from the start.

If TIM knew about David and Gavin told him what he's planning, then either TIM didn't give him an extension necessary for a prudent course of action. Or said no, but Gavin still did it anyways (hence why personnel should have been sent to shut it down if it failed to meet scheduled expectations). Or Gavin didn't tell TIM in the first place, and TIM had no idea at all of what's happening (which I thought was what happened).

In all those scenarios, there is a flaw that could have created a disaster.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 26 avril 2011 - 11:10 .

[Someone With Mass]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
War with who, besides Cerberus?

How about any organics? They don't give a crap about factions. We're all meatbags to them.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 26 avril 2011 - 11:03 .

[Dean_the_Young]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Immediate, unpredictable, and arbitrary termination isn't a method that promotes safety, caution, and pacing. Which is what would have avoided the problems in regards to Overlord.

What I meant, is that if TIM deems a project useless in accordance to its designated timeline where results are expected but not met, then TIM should make sure the project is shut down. What apparently happened in Overlord is TIM saying the project is not providing results and shutting the project up, then Archer freaking out. Unless I missed something and Dr. Archer is assumign that TIM wanted to shut it down.

But... if the Project knows the timeline, then you have the Overlord situation already. 'If we don't produce results/possibilities of results by X, are likely to be shut down.'

You're back to where you started. Both sides know that if results aren't produced by the timeline data Y, then Z will happen. In order to avoid Z, researchers will do Q before Y.

At which point, if you're afraid that desperate researchers will try crazy stuff before Y, all you've done is establish whereabouts when they're most likely to do crazy stuff. Except, because they know that you know that they'll be willing to do crazy stuff at Y-t, they'll know that their best chance is to act at Y-t-1. But then you know that-


Not that anything suggests or implies that Overlord didn't have as schedule it was going (and failing) by. Nothing really suggests a call out of the blue dumping bad news.

The oversight does not have to be explicit, it can be secret. At least for very sensitive projects like Overlord. David's existence and potential should have been known by TIM from the start.

If TIM knew about David and Gavin told him what he's planning, then either TIM didn't give him an extension necessary for a prudent course of action. Or said no, but Gaving still did it anyways (hence why personnel should have been sent to shut it down if it failed to meet scheduled expectations). Or Gavin didn't tell TIM in the first place, and TIM had no idea at all of what's happening.

In all those scenarios, there is a flaw that could have created a disaster.

The problem isn't the secrecy of the Oversight, it's the segmentation inherent in an autonomous cell organization structure. Updates must be separated in order to maintain security and viability.

If you have updates, both official and secret, every T units, then you still have a period T long in which problems can arise. Which is what happened: in between reports, Archer had a great idea. The previous report (secret and otherwise) wouldn't have caught it. The next report (known and secret) would have revealed it. In that interim is when the problem would have arrisen. Having 'open' and secret reports at the same time wouldn't have changed the nature of the problem.

Nor, to head off the suggestion, would 'secret' reports ever T/2 (or, rather, secret reports both at and between every T units). Because, again, you would still have a period of T/2 in which things could go wrong.

[Dean_the_Young]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
War with who, besides Cerberus?

How about any organics? They don't give a crap about factions. We're all meatbags to them.

Then the Geth are idiots and can't be trusted to be peaceful in the first place. At which point we aren't discussing rational actors, but arguing the merits of humoring the insane who could kill us in hope of them not deciding to kill us.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 26 avril 2011 - 11:14 .

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Uh, how does any organization track branches that are removed by distance?

Usually by maintaining sufficient manpower and coverage that they know what is going on, but that isn't always possible on Earth where it is a lot easier to do, let alone at intergalactic distances. There are whole management courses on this concept. Look up 'agency cost.'

And to support your assertions of false reports and unlisted projects in regards to the known Cerberus projects during the time are...

Nuh uh. You are the one saying de facto that the Alliance must have known. I am explaining the reasons why it would be believable for them not to know. Defend your own claim. Provide the proof they did know.