1342 réponses à ce sujet

[Moiaussi]

michaelrsa wrote...

mrsph wrote...

Overlord really just doesn't make sense at all.

Geth giving a **** about what David tells them to do?

Somehow talking in the geth verbal language (which is itself stupid seeing as the communicate at the speed of light) makes them more willng to listen to you?

That depends on what you are saying, though, doesn't it?  If you crack their command structure and send the orders you want in the place of the ones they would normally send, they might be inclined to obey, especially if they are in smaller numbers per mobile unit and thus not thinking at full potential capacity.

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Uh, how does any organization track branches that are removed by distance?

Usually by maintaining sufficient manpower and coverage that they know what is going on, but that isn't always possible on Earth where it is a lot easier to do, let alone at intergalactic distances. There are whole management courses on this concept. Look up 'agency cost.'

...you know, the reply is so easy that it really just wrote itself.

Which rather beggared the question of why you asked it, when you answered it. (And may I just claim awesomely low agency cost in handling that?)

And to support your assertions of false reports and unlisted projects in regards to the known Cerberus projects during the time are...

Nuh uh. You are the one saying de facto that the Alliance must have known. I am explaining the reasons why it would be believable for them not to know. Defend your own claim. Provide the proof they did know.

The position that an organization knows the behavior of a subordinate wing is the dominant position unless reason showing otherwise is presented. Which, to date, nothing pre-breakaway has.

A refutation of Alliance responsibility for the acts of Cerberus, it's tool over an extensive period of time, on the basis of ignorance, is about as convincing as an argument that any given act of Cerberus can't be painted on TIM. Claims of ignorance are the sort that do need to be supported. When they aren't, they are baseless.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

But... if the Project knows the timeline, then you have the Overlord situation already. 'If we don't produce results/possibilities of results by X, are likely to be shut down.'

And hence why I am also saying that  there should be more direct oversight and a prevention mechanism (a cell designed to deal with dangerous projects for instance), to make sure they don't get out of hand in such a situation.

The problem isn't the secrecy of the Oversight, it's the segmentation inherent in an autonomous cell organization structure. Updates must be separated in order to maintain security and viability.

Yes, have a secret agent in the sensitive project reporting he / she is working in.

Having 'open' and secret reports at the same time wouldn't have changed the nature of the problem.

It would have allowed TIM to know about David for instance and his potential. It would have allowed TIM to realize that Gavin is starting to experiment on David (which I doubt took a few minutes). and it would have allowed either TIM to shut down the project immediately if he deems it too dangerous, or give Gavin an extension to take his time and be careful.  

This secret reporting does not have to be on an hourly basis or a daily basis. It could be whenever something big and important happens, like what Gavin did to David.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying this would fix all problems. It might even create some. I find Cerberus appealing precisely because of how they organize things and how they are not a bureaucratic mess. But I do believe some things can be done to improve their modus operandi, at least for very sensitive projects.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 26 avril 2011 - 11:35 .

[Dean_the_Young]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

But... if the Project knows the timeline, then you have the Overlord situation already. 'If we don't produce results/possibilities of results by X, are likely to be shut down.'

And hence why I am also saying that  there should be more direct oversight and a prevention mechanism (a cell designed to deal with dangerous projects for instance), to make sure they don't get out of hand in such a situation.

Which begs the question of when, exactly, did Overlord really go out of hand? And where would a spy have had to be to know about the intent to plug David in far enough to make a difference, and would it have been deemed necessary of report?

Moreover, why do we assume that TIM didn't have spies in Overlord? Why do we presume that Archer was his only source of information?

The problem isn't the secrecy of the Oversight, it's the segmentation inherent in an autonomous cell organization structure. Updates must be separated in order to maintain security and viability.

Yes, have a secret agent in each sensitive project reporting he / she is working with.

And said agent will also have to give segmented reports. Que back to start.

Having 'open' and secret reports at the same time wouldn't have changed the nature of the problem.

It would have allowed TIM to know about David for instance and his potential. It would have allowed TIM to realize that Gavin is starting to experiment on David (which I doubt took a few minutes). and it would have allowed either TIM to shut down the project immediately if he deems it too dangerous, or give Gavin an extension to take his time and be careful. 

This secret reporting does not have to be on an hourly basis or a daily basis. It could be whenever something big and important happens, like what Gavin did to David.

Until it went out of control, how was the David experiment especially big and important enough for a spy, assuming the spy was in a position of Archer's inner circle, to warrant immediate update rather than wait for standard update? It was assumed to be just a small test, not a cyber-WMD.

Unless you intend to enact a system in which technical data is often and irregularly dumped on The Illusive Man's desk to workthrough and understand rather than wait for the regular reports.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying this would fix all problems. It might even create some. I find Cerberus appealing precisely because of how they organize things and how they are not a bureaucratic mess. But I do believe some things can be done to improve their modus operandi, at least for very sensitive projects.

What, in particular, marks Overlord as a 'very sensitive' project as opposed to other Cerberus projects?

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

you know, the reply is so easy that it really just wrote itself.

Which rather beggared the question of why you asked it, when you answered it. (And may I just claim awesomely low agency cost in handling that?)

Quit trolling and prove low agency costs. When you cannot be sure of any given agent's position and have to rely on what you are told, and checking means sending other agents possibly months travel time with a risk of jeaopardizing whatever the agents are supposed to be doing, how do you keep them low?

The position that an organization knows the behavior of a subordinate wing is the dominant position unless reason showing otherwise is presented. Which, to date, nothing pre-breakaway has.

A refutation of Alliance responsibility for the acts of Cerberus, it's tool over an extensive period of time, on the basis of ignorance, is about as convincing as an argument that any given act of Cerberus can't be painted on TIM. Claims of ignorance are the sort that do need to be supported. When they aren't, they are baseless.

What do you mean 'no evidence?' We know they went rogue. We know when they were declared rogue but that is presumably a different date. Based on your theory, not even so much as a single agent could ever go rogue ever, since in your estimation there was perfect ability to keep track. Nevermind that you haven't done anything other than claim that to be true. No actual proof other than your own circular logic.

The Alliance not refuting responsibility isn't needed since noone except you is pointing fingers at the Alliance. Even Admiral  Kahoku talks of Cerberus infiltration of the Alliance rather than Cerberus still being an Alliance op, and he had plenty of reason to point fingers.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

]Which begs the question of when, exactly, did Overlord really go out of hand? And where would a spy have had to be to know about the intent to plug David in far enough to make a difference, and would it have been deemed necessary of report?

If it was something not in the original plan, then yea, it should have been reported. I do not know the specifics of what happened, but.

Moreover, why do we assume that TIM didn't have spies in Overlord? Why do we presume that Archer was his only source of information?

Well if he knew, but didn't give Gavin an extension, then he made a mistake. If he knew and said no, and Gavin still did it, then TIM lacks the means to impose his orders properly. Or TIM did not know at all. 

Those are the 3 scenarios that I can come up with regarding what happened.

And said agent will also have to give segmented reports. Que back to start.

By segmented reports, you mean on a tight regular schedule? With specific times to report?

Why do those agents have to report on a regular basis? Why can they report whenever they deem it necessary or something big is happening that is not part of the original plan?

Until it went out of control, how was the David experiment especially big and important enough for a spy, assuming the spy was in a position of Archer's inner circle, to warrant immediate update rather than wait for standard update? It was assumed to be just a small test, not a cyber-WMD.

If it was not part of the original plan and if Gavin, in desperation is rushing (taking into consideration the schedule), then I think that's a perfectly valid thing to report.

Unless you intend to enact a system in which technical data is often and irregularly dumped on The Illusive Man's desk to workthrough and understand rather than wait for the regular reports.

Well the Shadow Broker manages an information network, with investment networks apparently, with irregular reports, and he's handling it. Liara is as well.

No, I am not saying TIM should recieve details on very technical data.  But say for instance on Pragia, the Cell is conducting questionable experiments that are outside the original set paramaters, the agents can notify TIM about this, who can decide whether to allow it or not.  For Overlord, the agent could notify TIM about Gavin rushing with experiments on David, because he discovered a big potential, to meet a deadline. In which case, TIM would have probably given Gavin an extension.

What, in particular, marks Overlord as a 'very sensitive' project as opposed to other Cerberus projects?

Because of the Overlod's ability to connect with and control everything that is VI. And because of its ability control / attract Geth, it could have gone wrong in any different ways that would have had repercussions on a galactic scale. Rachni (withotu a Queen) and Thorian creepers are not as dangerous.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 26 avril 2011 - 11:59 .

[Arijharn]

Herr Sovereign wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

Sovereign is indoctrinating us all!!!

I resent such accusations! 

Will you accept my dream as testimony? The shrieks of the damned I tell ye!

[008Zulu]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

008Zulu wrote...


Evil does have rather broad connotations. How about....

Cerberus is: Morally Bankrupt.

Hardly: they are utilitarian moralists. The many before the few, the ends justify the means, etc.

Cerberus is actually a very moral insitution... by another set of morality than yours.

Devoid of basic humanity.

Nope, and how anyone thinks that cruelty is inhumane in light of human history really has an idealism problem. It is human, and that's the problem.

Uncaring.

We've yet to meet an uncaring Cerberus person yet: even the ones who do human experiments do so out of caring for something else.

They might not care about the people they test on (or, on the other hand, they might: Dr. Archer.), but then no one blames Shepard for not weeping over the many hundreds/thousands of mercs, geth, krogan, and batarians.

An affront to all the good things in life.

Not unless you have a very selective definition of 'good'.

An insult to humanity.

Hardly. At worst, an uncomfortable reminder of the truth of humanity, both good and bad. That's not an insult by any means, except in so much as it disproves plesant lies.

Sadistic.

Not in particular.

1- I'm sure some of the greatest tyrants and genocidial maniacs of history would love how you define morality.
2- Good people feel bad about crimes or mistakes they have made. Cerberus doesn't.
3- If they cared enough, they would use sophisticated computer systems that would simulate the situation and not hurt people at all.
4- Good; caring, nice, tolerance, acceptance. Qualities Cerberus doesn't display.
5- People who generally accept that there are "neseccary evils" are too lazy to work out a better solution.
6- Injecting Thresher Acid in to peoples veins. What possible scientific explanation can be offered for that kind of behaviour? Its sadistic, pure and simple.

[008Zulu]

Moiaussi wrote...

wiggles89 wrote...

How long did it take the Alliance to sever all ties once Cerberus made their true colours visible?

Cerberus' worst experiments happened while they were a part of the Alliance. And keep it mind, there was a long period between Teltin and the Alliance severing their ties with Cerberus. Moreover, Cerberus' behaviour has been much more palatable since the two split.

There is no evidence that the Alliance knew of the worst of it though, and we were told in ME1 that Cerberus had effectively infiltrated the Alliance, which suggests that some of the rogue elements simply stayed in the Alliance under cover. At some point they were declared rogue, but it isn't as if there aren't many cases in history where an individual or organization operates illegally for years before they get caught.

Take crooked agents that have been found in places like the FBI and CIA. Does this make America as a whole bad for employing and training these people in the first place? Does it mean that the FBI and CIA are now, by proxy, bad as well?

Cerberus is like these crooked agents. It may have taken time to discover how corrupt they are, but it doesnt mean that those who created them are evil.

[Manic Sheep]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Because of the Overlod's ability to connect with and control everything that is VI. And because of its ability control / attract Geth, it could have gone wrong in any different ways that would have had repercussions on a galactic scale. Rachni (withotu a Queen) and Thorian creepers are not as dangerous.

Did they actually know about that one before the problems started? That is pretty much why the project was so disastrous. Had he not being able to do that even if they had lost control of him it would have been much less of a threat.

Modifié par Manic Sheep, 27 avril 2011 - 02:02 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Manic Sheep wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Because of the Overlod's ability to connect with and control everything that is VI. And because of its ability control / attract Geth, it could have gone wrong in any different ways that would have had repercussions on a galactic scale. Rachni (withotu a Queen) and Thorian creepers are not as dangerous.

Did they actually know about that one before the problems started? That is pretty much why the project was so disastrous. Had he not being able to do that even if they had lost control of him the problem would have been isolated.

About the VI thing? Now that you mention it, Dr Archer may have never intended for that ability. But still, attracting / controlling Geth, which is the purpose of the project, can also create its own set of problems that wouldn't be isolated, if it isn't handled with caution. A few mad Thorian creepers on some planet on the otherhand are a very isolated problem that can easily be fixed. 

Also, according to this, Overlord can control AIs. Again, not sure if this is an intented result, or an unintended side-effect.

[ExtremeOne]

008Zulu wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

008Zulu wrote...


Evil does have rather broad connotations. How about....

Cerberus is: Morally Bankrupt.

Hardly: they are utilitarian moralists. The many before the few, the ends justify the means, etc.

Cerberus is actually a very moral insitution... by another set of morality than yours.

Devoid of basic humanity.

Nope, and how anyone thinks that cruelty is inhumane in light of human history really has an idealism problem. It is human, and that's the problem.

Uncaring.

We've yet to meet an uncaring Cerberus person yet: even the ones who do human experiments do so out of caring for something else.

They might not care about the people they test on (or, on the other hand, they might: Dr. Archer.), but then no one blames Shepard for not weeping over the many hundreds/thousands of mercs, geth, krogan, and batarians.

An affront to all the good things in life.

Not unless you have a very selective definition of 'good'.

An insult to humanity.

Hardly. At worst, an uncomfortable reminder of the truth of humanity, both good and bad. That's not an insult by any means, except in so much as it disproves plesant lies.

Sadistic.

Not in particular.

1- I'm sure some of the greatest tyrants and genocidial maniacs of history would love how you define morality.
2- Good people feel bad about crimes or mistakes they have made. Cerberus doesn't.
3- If they cared enough, they would use sophisticated computer systems that would simulate the situation and not hurt people at all.
4- Good; caring, nice, tolerance, acceptance. Qualities Cerberus doesn't display.
5- People who generally accept that there are "neseccary evils" are too lazy to work out a better solution.
6- Injecting Thresher Acid in to peoples veins. What possible scientific explanation can be offered for that kind of behaviour? Its sadistic, pure and simple.

   



Oh when it comes to us vs Aliens I will do what ever it takes to survive. The alliance wants to be friends with everyone . Lets get this straight do you really think that the Quarians and Salarians or the Geth . Will remain buddies with the alliance permantly . Hell no they will not . They will do what ever it takes for them to survive . So the alliance can bow and kiss the galaxy's ass now. but eventually the Galaxy will turn on it .  Screw the alliance 

[Someone With Mass]

ExtremeOne wrote...
Oh when it comes to us vs Aliens I will do what ever it takes to survive. The alliance wants to be friends with everyone . Lets get this straight do you really think that the Quarians and Salarians or the Geth . Will remain buddies with the alliance permantly . Hell no they will not . They will do what ever it takes for them to survive . So the alliance can bow and kiss the galaxy's ass now. but eventually the Galaxy will turn on it .  Screw the alliance 

And you've played the game, so you know this is how it is.

And screw Cerberus. I can count their good deeds on one hand. Hell, they were made because TIM was so butthurt and blinded by some events in the first contact war, he fails to see the galaxy for what it is. 

Sure, humanity needs to be strong, I can admit that, but it doesn't need to dominate. At all. There is no Cold War-like scenario between humanity and the aliens out there.

It's just Timmy, being a delusional twerp.

[Homey C-Dawg]

Yeah TIM is totally a megalomaniac in it for his own personal gain.

Should be fun whoopin him in ME3.

[Manic Sheep]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Manic Sheep wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Because of the Overlod's ability to connect with and control everything that is VI. And because of its ability control / attract Geth, it could have gone wrong in any different ways that would have had repercussions on a galactic scale. Rachni (withotu a Queen) and Thorian creepers are not as dangerous.

Did they actually know about that one before the problems started? That is pretty much why the project was so disastrous. Had he not being able to do that even if they had lost control of him the problem would have been isolated.

About the VI thing? Now that you mention it, Dr Archer may have never intended for that ability. But still, attracting / controlling Geth, which is the purpose of the project, can also create its own set of problems that wouldn't be isolated, if it isn't handled with caution. A few mad Thorian creepers on some planet on the otherhand are a very isolated problem that can easily be fixed.

Also, according to this, Overlord can control AIs. Again, not sure if this is an intented result, or an unintended side-effect.

Yes the VI thing. Sorry thought I had bolded that.

I'm guessing it was unexpected tho I don't know for sure. I was wondering if it was actually explained in game or not cause I can’t remember it very being mentioned.
From what I understood the point of overlord was to communicate with and manipulate the geth by exploiting their religious tendencies and creating a god like figure for them to follow. I don't know if they knew he could actually control them directly.
Had he not been able to control everything he wouldn't have been able to transmit himself of world so easily and he would have been much easier to shut down. It would still be risky yes but much less so and I would think the chances of him getting all the way to geth space would be slim.

Modifié par Manic Sheep, 27 avril 2011 - 02:21 .

[alienatedflea]

TomY90 wrote...

alienatedflea wrote...

xlI ReFLeX lIx wrote...

TomY90 wrote...

Too be honest every organization whether the ascari, turian, salarian, human or cerberus they are do evil deeds like cerberus

Turian - 1st Contact War
Ascari  Asari - lock up ardyt yashi (however you spell it) just for being born with it
Alliance - Jump Zero Experiments (Kaidan), Nuclear Bombs, Kasumi's Grey Box, annihilated the batarians
Zolus  Volus- Will trade they own mum in if it means they get a profit
Geth - killed billions of quarians and caused an entire race to run for their lives

Turian: I actualy think it was humanity that started that war

Asari: Not evil. They Ardact Yatchi (spelling?) kill people, they lock them up to protect the entire galaxy

Alliance: Didn't annihilate the batarians, Shepard did

Volus: Not every Volus

Geth: Quarians attacked them. They defended.. Not evil

so wait, now you are making distinctions now? so now not all of a species is bad just some...SO one can conclude with that logic...Some Cerberus projects/people are good and not just all of cerberus is bad?

you are pretty much right look at miranda and jacob they are prime examples of the case they are not what you call evil (granted miranda does seem to be ruthless but that does change over time) they are people who are wanting to fulfill their potential and help the galaxy and the human race as much as they possibly can which is noble objectives.

But others in the organisation for instance TIM he takes a balanced approach of the end more than outweighs the means where doing so and so experiments on these people will result in improvements and for instance the assasination cerberus did on the pope is another prime example of this they did this to protect cerberus in their eyes was more than worth it but to others it was bad

Jacob and Miranda arent evil...they do their jobs...Cerberus does its job which is to advance Human dominance in the galaxy...how is that evil again?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Manic Sheep wrote...
Had he not been able to control everything he wouldn't have been able to transmit himself of world so easily and he would have been much easier to shut down. It would still be risky yes but much less so and I would think the chances of him getting all the way to geth space would be slim.

Yes, but David was mixed with a VI. The risk of a virus transmitting to other VIs was present. Indeed, we know this happened with the Hahne-Kedar security mechs being controlled (or caused loss of control) by a virus. I doubt someone as intelligent as Dr. Archer was oblivious to the possibility.

But like I said, a lot of the blame does fall on Dr. Archer himself and I personally am not criticizing the project entirely. I think it turned out for the best at the end and provided Humanity with a powerful and invaluable weapon. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 27 avril 2011 - 02:26 .

[alienatedflea]

M-Sinistrari wrote...

alienatedflea wrote...


so now we should stop all medical advancement because it might be unethical? the research was essential in the tuskegee project...otherwise we would not have known that or know how to deal with the disease...its not evil...its unethical sure but evil?

I only read about this far on your reply to realize that you really don't understand the points I was making at all and your level of amorality is highly disturbing to me.  I can't debate with this level of empathic disconnect.

so since I would have no problem with doing want is essential and for the bigger good (like Cerberus does) that makes me an evvvviiiillll person? lol sweet

[Viperlord 21]

I would say Cerberus qualifies for most definitions of evil, but from the view of my Shepards, they are, for the present, a necessary evil.

[ExtremeOne]

Someone With Mass wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...
Oh when it comes to us vs Aliens I will do what ever it takes to survive. The alliance wants to be friends with everyone . Lets get this straight do you really think that the Quarians and Salarians or the Geth . Will remain buddies with the alliance permantly . Hell no they will not . They will do what ever it takes for them to survive . So the alliance can bow and kiss the galaxy's ass now. but eventually the Galaxy will turn on it .  Screw the alliance 

And you've played the game, so you know this is how it is.

And screw Cerberus. I can count their good deeds on one hand. Hell, they were made because TIM was so butthurt and blinded by some events in the first contact war, he fails to see the galaxy for what it is. 

Sure, humanity needs to be strong, I can admit that, but it doesn't need to dominate. At all. There is no Cold War-like scenario between humanity and the aliens out there.

It's just Timmy, being a delusional twerp.

  




I just think the alien races would turn on us at any point . They do not like us that was made clear in ME 1 . Sure they will work with us. But do you really think they are our friends 

[alienatedflea]

Last Vizard wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

Cerberus is not evil . Bioware is turning them evil for no reason at all

Yes they are evil, the point is that they are the lesser of two evils... the other being Reaper/alien dominance over humans.

is that really the "lesser of two evils"? I guess what you call evil is what I call survival...its a cut-throat world out there and there has to be a top dog in every society to maintain control...the element you people are confusing over is not the organization but the means to achieve that control without the galaxy even then its hard to say what evil truly is..maybe it has something to do with how big the evil is like this: Is Cerberus evil for experimenting on little kids with biotics or is the Alliance evil for condoning having soldiers like Alenko have L2 implants which had huge downsides too? I guess we say Cerberus is evil while Alliance is an accepted legalized entity to have those privileges?  I see no difference between Cerberus and Alliance as organizations but one has the law on its side while the other does not.  (so having the law on their side makes evil things they have done null and void?) 

[Someone With Mass]

ExtremeOne wrote...
I just think the alien races would turn on us at any point . They do not like us that was made clear in ME 1 . Sure they will work with us. But do you really think they are our friends 

What would they gain on that move? Why would they do it? A interstellar society that managed just fine without us in wars and bad times for thousands of years, and when we show up, we're suddenly a threat to them? Ha.

Dream on, buddy.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 27 avril 2011 - 02:42 .

[Splinter Cell 108]

ExtremeOne wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...
Oh when it comes to us vs Aliens I will do what ever it takes to survive. The alliance wants to be friends with everyone . Lets get this straight do you really think that the Quarians and Salarians or the Geth . Will remain buddies with the alliance permantly . Hell no they will not . They will do what ever it takes for them to survive . So the alliance can bow and kiss the galaxy's ass now. but eventually the Galaxy will turn on it .  Screw the alliance 

And you've played the game, so you know this is how it is.

And screw Cerberus. I can count their good deeds on one hand. Hell, they were made because TIM was so butthurt and blinded by some events in the first contact war, he fails to see the galaxy for what it is. 

Sure, humanity needs to be strong, I can admit that, but it doesn't need to dominate. At all. There is no Cold War-like scenario between humanity and the aliens out there.

It's just Timmy, being a delusional twerp.

  




I just think the alien races would turn on us at any point . They do not like us that was made clear in ME 1 . Sure they will work with us. But do you really think they are our friends 

And Cerberus wouldn't have any fault on aliens turning on humans? Tthey have experimented on aliens, they have people like Kai Leng in their organization and want to place humanity above everyone else. I'm sure none of those reasons would contribute to aliens disliking humanity. Cerberus is one of the reasons that aliens don't like humanity. 

[Last Vizard]

alienatedflea wrote...

Last Vizard wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

Cerberus is not evil . Bioware is turning them evil for no reason at all

Yes they are evil, the point is that they are the lesser of two evils... the other being Reaper/alien dominance over humans.

is that really the "lesser of two evils"? I guess what you call evil is what I call survival...its a cut-throat world out there and there has to be a top dog in every society to maintain control...the element you people are confusing over is not the organization but the means to achieve that control without the galaxy even then its hard to say what evil truly is..maybe it has something to do with how big the evil is like this: Is Cerberus evil for experimenting on little kids with biotics or is the Alliance evil for condoning having soldiers like Alenko have L2 implants which had huge downsides too? I guess we say Cerberus is evil while Alliance is an accepted legalized entity to have those privileges?  I see no difference between Cerberus and Alliance as organizations but one has the law on its side while the other does not.  (so having the law on their side makes evil things they have done null and void?) 

I agree with you, the Aliiance has/will do evil things to ensure the survival of our race/corporations.  the statement i was commenting on was "Cerberus is not evil" ---- yes they are but all races will commit necessary evils to survive.... still evil though.  In a future like ME evils like dumping ezzo on populated areas to introduce bioitcs to our race are needed, I'm a Cerberus supporter and i understand that they're doing the dirty evil things we need to advance our selves.

(PS. If TIM is doing all the work i don't see why he shouldn't rule Humanity from the shadows or achieve his goals)

[Moiaussi]

008Zulu wrote...

Take crooked agents that have been found in places like the FBI and CIA. Does this make America as a whole bad for employing and training these people in the first place? Does it mean that the FBI and CIA are now, by proxy, bad as well?

Cerberus is like these crooked agents. It may have taken time to discover how corrupt they are, but it doesnt mean that those who created them are evil.

There are different types of evil. TIM exhibits similar lack of oversight over his operations to the Council with Spectres. He is actually abnormally hands on with Shepard (based on Ascension).

There is also the question as to what TIM's goals really are. Are they really simply Humanity being the best? Or if aliens are elmininated, who becomes the next scapegoat? Are humans really all 'human' enough for Cerberus?

What is TIM's endgame plan?

TIM makes it clear that noone else should have voting rights. What other rights does he feel people are not worthy of?