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Cerberus is more evil than most people realise.


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#301
008Zulu

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ExtremeOne wrote...

I just think the alien races would turn on us at any point . They do not like us that was made clear in ME 1 . Sure they will work with us. But do you really think they are our friends 


They dont hate us, they resent us because of our nature. In the game we are told that we are headstrong and trample anything that gets in our way. The Turians, Asari and Salarians took a long time to learn to live together peacefully. Rather than see how the rest of the galaxy lives together we burst in with our arrogance and say "We are the special ones here, you will do things our way."

This kind of behaviour might be better suited if we were still primative hunter/gather tribes. But when you reach out to the greater world and galaxy, you have to realise not everyone does everything the same. Its only pure stupidity if you think your way is better without first seeing how they first do it.

When your the new kid in school not everyone is going to like you the moment they first lay eyes on you. If you want them to like you, you have to work at it.

#302
008Zulu

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Moiaussi wrote...

TIM exhibits similar lack of oversight over his operations to the Council with Spectres.


A thought occured. Cerberus attracts those who are, not to put too fine a point on it, prejudiced. TIM then gives these cells alomst unrestricted financies with almost no oversight.

A newly formed anti-alien pro-human squad with a boatload of cash and told to do "Whatever it takes."

Nothing good could ever come of such incompetence.

#303
Guest_Saphra Deden_*

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008Zulu wrote...

The Turians, Asari and Salarians took a long time to learn to live together peacefully. Rather than see how the rest of the galaxy lives together we burst in with our arrogance and say "We are the special ones here, you will do things our way."


Firstly, the galaxy is not at peace and never has been.

Secondly we haven't told anybody how to live, merely how we will live.

#304
Dean_the_Young

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

]Which begs the question of when, exactly, did Overlord really go out of hand? And where would a spy have had to be to know about the intent to plug David in far enough to make a difference, and would it have been deemed necessary of report?


If it was something not in the original plan, then yea, it should have been reported. I do not know the specifics of what happened, but.

If you could put exploratory research projects on a strict plan, you wouldn't need to be performing them. You would already know, and hence wouldn't need exploratory research in the first place.

When they did think they had a potential avenue, they were about to report it once they confirmed they had something to report.

Moreover, why do we assume that TIM didn't have spies in Overlord? Why do we presume that Archer was his only source of information?


Well if he knew, but didn't give Gavin an extension, then he made a mistake. If he knew and said no, and Gavin still did it, then TIM lacks the means to impose his orders properly. Or TIM did not know at all.

You're missing the extension that simply having spies doesn't mean you get time-sensitive information. He can have a spy AND not know in a time relevant manner.


By segmented reports, you mean on a tight regular schedule? With specific times to report?

Why do those agents have to report on a regular basis? Why can they report whenever they deem it necessary or something big is happening that is not part of the original plan?

Cell-organization requirements. A large part of cell-structure is the necessity for detached organization. You can give regular-irregular reports at best, but you still need time-gaps... and short of encouraging an entirely paranoid group, relying on your spies to give you reports rather than the regular reports just goes back to the same pattern of falling into the gaps between reports of what/when people feel it's necessary to report.

And, again, the idea that we can have a plan for this sort of research is rather laughable. It would be entirely arbitrary timelines for entirely unknowable avenues of research on an otherwise entirely unknown species.

Well the Shadow Broker manages an information network, with investment networks apparently, with irregular reports, and he's handling it. Liara is as well.

The Broker's network is one of the more bizaar, non-sensical pieces of organization, but it's also a different organization and focus.

No, I am not saying TIM should recieve details on very technical data.  But say for instance on Pragia, the Cell is conducting questionable experiments that are outside the original set paramaters, the agents can notify TIM about this, who can decide whether to allow it or not.  For Overlord, the agent could notify TIM about Gavin rushing with experiments on David, because he discovered a big potential, to meet a deadline. In which case, TIM would have probably given Gavin an extension.

What parameters are you seeing as being outside of? Remember, Cerberus: no red tape. Nor was the experiment that questionable: it was supposed to be a test, and something that could be shut down at the first sign of danger, with even the power grid taken off line if necessary. In what particular sense was the project rushed?

We were never given an indication that Archer had an immediate deadline he had to show a functional result, as opposed to reporting the new path of promising research.

Because of the Overlod's ability to connect with and control everything that is VI. And because of its ability control / attract Geth, it could have gone wrong in any different ways that would have had repercussions on a galactic scale. Rachni (withotu a Queen) and Thorian creepers are not as dangerous.

Overlord's ability to do that wasn't expected or predicted to be able to do that, however. They didn't think they had an all-tech-controlling product, only a Geth-influencing one.

#305
Xaijin

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GodWood wrote...

The Cerberus haters far out number the Cerberus sympathizers.


Yes but Cerberus sympathizers exhibit a level of stupid and ignorance matched only by millions of Sarah Palins attempting to pronounce "disenfranchised", so it more than balances out.

Modifié par Xaijin, 27 avril 2011 - 10:01 .


#306
Maderek

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"Cerberus is bad!"

Don't get your morals in a bunch.

#307
CaptainZaysh

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Xaijin wrote...

Yes but Cerberus sympathizers exhibit a level of stupid and ignorance matched only by millions of Sarah Palins attempting to pronounce "disenfranchised", so it more than balances out.


Ooh, edgy.

#308
alienatedflea

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Last Vizard wrote...

alienatedflea wrote...

Last Vizard wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

Cerberus is not evil . Bioware is turning them evil for no reason at all


Yes they are evil, the point is that they are the lesser of two evils... the other being Reaper/alien dominance over humans.

is that really the "lesser of two evils"? I guess what you call evil is what I call survival...its a cut-throat world out there and there has to be a top dog in every society to maintain control...the element you people are confusing over is not the organization but the means to achieve that control without the galaxy even then its hard to say what evil truly is..maybe it has something to do with how big the evil is like this: Is Cerberus evil for experimenting on little kids with biotics or is the Alliance evil for condoning having soldiers like Alenko have L2 implants which had huge downsides too? I guess we say Cerberus is evil while Alliance is an accepted legalized entity to have those privileges?  I see no difference between Cerberus and Alliance as organizations but one has the law on its side while the other does not.  (so having the law on their side makes evil things they have done null and void?)  Posted ImagePosted Image


I agree with you, the Aliiance has/will do evil things to ensure the survival of our race/corporations.  the statement i was commenting on was "Cerberus is not evil" ---- yes they are but all races will commit necessary evils to survive.... still evil though.  In a future like ME evils like dumping ezzo on populated areas to introduce bioitcs to our race are needed, I'm a Cerberus supporter and i understand that they're doing the dirty evil things we need to advance our selves.

(PS. If TIM is doing all the work i don't see why he shouldn't rule Humanity from the shadows or achieve his goals)

I dont see evil in survival...I see a will to live and a duty to perserve what we have for generations to come...is that evil? to preserve whatever we have left? or is it evil to fight for a better tomorrow for own race?  We shouldnt look at things as evil and good because by all means anything can be those two categories I just see that Cerberus did relive Shephard and thus stopping the collectors when thte council claims "it cant get involved in something thats purely a human matter" even after you save them or have a human damn council...wtf? help out your own kind for ****s sake...Alliance turned their back on Humanity when we needed them the most...I wouldnt say Cerberus is all that bad/evil and if they truly hated aliens...TIM wouldnt let you bring aliens on his new normandy ship and got you dossiers for the best humans out there...right?

#309
Kaiser Shepard

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Xaijin wrote...

GodWood wrote...

The Cerberus haters far out number the Cerberus sympathizers.


Yes but Cerberus sympathizers exhibit a level of stupid and ignorance matched only by million Sarah Palins attempting to pronounce "disenfranchised", so it more than balances out.

Don't be so rude. They may indeed be foolish in blindly trusting The Illusive Man, but most of them can put up a pretty mean debate when it comes to other subjects.

#310
GodWood

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Xaijin wrote...

GodWood wrote...
The Cerberus haters far out number the Cerberus sympathizers.

Yes but Cerberus sympathizers exhibit a level of stupid and ignorance matched only by millions of Sarah Palins attempting to pronounce "disenfranchised", so it more than balances out.

Ah yes, sympathizers like Dean, Zulu and (possibly?) KnightofPhoenix.

Such stupid ignorant people...

#311
alienatedflea

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Xaijin wrote...

GodWood wrote...

The Cerberus haters far out number the Cerberus sympathizers.


Yes but Cerberus sympathizers exhibit a level of stupid and ignorance matched only by millions of Sarah Palins attempting to pronounce "disenfranchised", so it more than balances out.

is it stupid to understand that it doesnt matter what side of the law youre on? Alliance is evil as well as Cerberus.  STG is evil for nearly wiping out the krogans with the genophage.  I clearly dont see Cerberus as evil but I wouldnt turn my back to them either...there is always alterior motives for each organization...just needs to be found out

#312
Dean_the_Young

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008Zulu wrote...

1- I'm sure some of the greatest tyrants and genocidial maniacs of history would love how you define morality.

Actually, they aren't picky at all about what morality system they cling to. You apparently don't understand any morality besides your own, however, so I'm not surprised for the blindness.

2- Good people feel bad about crimes or mistakes they have made. Cerberus doesn't.

This is such an overwhelming double generalization that it's painful to see. If people see the right thing as being illegal, it's still the right thing. Good people don't feel bad about doing the right thing: hence why moral lawyers don't apologize for successfully defending the guilty, why civil rights protestors don't feel guilty for civil disobedience, why close-knit families won't apologize for protecting eachother, and why soldiers can see what they're doing as right and proper even if they're killing real human beings.

What the right thing is, however, varies widely by context and culture.

3- If they cared enough, they would use sophisticated computer systems that would simulate the situation and not hurt people at all.

Computers aren't magic in lieu of the physical realm and physical testing.

Though, I suppose, the word 'enough' is a qualifier I can't dispute... though why we should take your evaluation over anyone else's is beyond me.

4- Good; caring, nice, tolerance, acceptance. Qualities Cerberus doesn't display.

Anyone who defines 'good' as 'nice' has some serious esteem issues to overcome before they can be taken seriously and objectively evaluate anyone else's world view.

'Tolerant' is another one. 'Caring' is a concept that expresses itself in differing ways by culture. 'Acceptance' is also vague in implementation even in individual cultures.

5- People who generally accept that there are "neseccary evils" are too lazy to work out a better solution.

And I could accuse that people who refuse to accept that are those who are too ignorant to know better from their comfy lives.

We could go around insulting eachother all day. You've yet to really support why you're the moral authority, though.

6- Injecting Thresher Acid in to peoples veins. What possible scientific explanation can be offered for that kind of behaviour? Its sadistic, pure and simple.

If you aren't capable of deciphering a number of potential answers without outside help, you're in no position to make the verdict.

Also: fallacy of composition. Just to throw that out there.

#313
alienatedflea

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Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Xaijin wrote...

GodWood wrote...

The Cerberus haters far out number the Cerberus sympathizers.


Yes but Cerberus sympathizers exhibit a level of stupid and ignorance matched only by million Sarah Palins attempting to pronounce "disenfranchised", so it more than balances out.

Don't be so rude. They may indeed be foolish in blindly trusting The Illusive Man, but most of them can put up a pretty mean debate when it comes to other subjects.

do you trust Admiral Hackett in ME1? after he sent you on every mission that went silent? (AKA Alliance missions that were **** ups?) Alliance has probably just about as high as Cerberus in the rate of ****ing up...Hackett can't be trusted because he simply outranks you

#314
ExtremeOne

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Xaijin wrote...

GodWood wrote...

The Cerberus haters far out number the Cerberus sympathizers.


Yes but Cerberus sympathizers exhibit a level of stupid and ignorance matched only by millions of Sarah Palins attempting to pronounce "disenfranchised", so it more than balances out.

      



Its only stupid because you think it is .  I hate Srah Palin but that is a different story for another day.  

#315
Dean_the_Young

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Someone With Mass wrote...

And screw Cerberus. I can count their good deeds on one hand.

Reducing tensions with Salarians.
Improving relations between Humans and Batarians.
Removing a biotic-supremacist from Asari influence.
Pushing the construction of the Normandy 1.
Creating a significant number of charities and human-development companies.
Resurrecting Shepard.
Giving Shepard the Normandy 2.
Giving Joker the chance to fly again.
Building EDI.
Trapping the Collectors so that they could be engaged.
Finding the location of a Reaper IFF.
Providing Shepard the dossiers, logistics, and economic support for a team to take down the Collectors...


I'm sorry for your natural deformity of twelve fingers per hand. I didn't want to count any higher.

Hell, they were made because TIM was so butthurt and blinded by some events in the first contact war, he fails to see the galaxy for what it is.

Hegemonistic, racist, genocidal, and self-interested?

Sure, humanity needs to be strong, I can admit that, but it doesn't need to dominate. At all. There is no Cold War-like scenario between humanity and the aliens out there.

It's just Timmy, being a delusional twerp.

He's absolutely correct on that account.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 27 avril 2011 - 10:19 .


#316
Kaiser Shepard

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alienatedflea wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Xaijin wrote...

GodWood wrote...

The Cerberus haters far out number the Cerberus sympathizers.


Yes but Cerberus sympathizers exhibit a level of stupid and ignorance matched only by million Sarah Palins attempting to pronounce "disenfranchised", so it more than balances out.

Don't be so rude. They may indeed be foolish in blindly trusting The Illusive Man, but most of them can put up a pretty mean debate when it comes to other subjects.

do you trust Admiral Hackett in ME1? after he sent you on every mission that went silent? (AKA Alliance missions that were **** ups?) Alliance has probably just about as high as Cerberus in the rate of ****ing up...Hackett can't be trusted because he simply outranks you

I don't really trust anyone who makes more than I do, but they aren't all bad. Hackett's intentions never were as dubious as TIM's, though.

#317
ExtremeOne

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Kaiser Shepard wrote...

alienatedflea wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Xaijin wrote...

GodWood wrote...

The Cerberus haters far out number the Cerberus sympathizers.


Yes but Cerberus sympathizers exhibit a level of stupid and ignorance matched only by million Sarah Palins attempting to pronounce "disenfranchised", so it more than balances out.

Don't be so rude. They may indeed be foolish in blindly trusting The Illusive Man, but most of them can put up a pretty mean debate when it comes to other subjects.

do you trust Admiral Hackett in ME1? after he sent you on every mission that went silent? (AKA Alliance missions that were **** ups?) Alliance has probably just about as high as Cerberus in the rate of ****ing up...Hackett can't be trusted because he simply outranks you

I don't really trust anyone who makes more than I do, but they aren't all bad. Hackett's intentions never were as dubious as TIM's, though.

   



No Hackett just send you into Batarian space to do some work for him because any alliance soldier in batarain space would be dead so they need Shepard to do their dirty work for him. Oh but Shepard learns the alliance was planning to wipe out the relay and the batarian system the anyway . They just did not have the balls to push the button to do it.  Now in 3 they want him to take the fall . yeah he is not bad at all he is just a coward. 

#318
didymos1120

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ExtremeOne wrote...

Oh but Shepard learns the alliance was planning to wipe out the relay and the batarian system the anyway . They just did not have the balls to push the button to do it. 


Incorrect.  That was not part of what Kenson and Co. were supposed to do.  That was something they came up with on their own.  And the reason the button didn't get pushed was because Object Rho indoctrinated them before they could. The only thing Shepard was supposed to do was bust Kenson out of jail, check out her evidence for the Reaper invasion, and then report back. This was all made quite clear in Arrival, so I've no idea where you're getting your version of events from.

Modifié par didymos1120, 27 avril 2011 - 11:23 .


#319
alienatedflea

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Kaiser Shepard wrote...

alienatedflea wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Xaijin wrote...

GodWood wrote...

The Cerberus haters far out number the Cerberus sympathizers.


Yes but Cerberus sympathizers exhibit a level of stupid and ignorance matched only by million Sarah Palins attempting to pronounce "disenfranchised", so it more than balances out.

Don't be so rude. They may indeed be foolish in blindly trusting The Illusive Man, but most of them can put up a pretty mean debate when it comes to other subjects.

do you trust Admiral Hackett in ME1? after he sent you on every mission that went silent? (AKA Alliance missions that were **** ups?) Alliance has probably just about as high as Cerberus in the rate of ****ing up...Hackett can't be trusted because he simply outranks you

I don't really trust anyone who makes more than I do, but they aren't all bad. Hackett's intentions never were as dubious as TIM's, though.

I think anyone here would say that TIM's intentions are noble...to protect and advance human dominance which is noble as Hackett's intention in keeping law and order...

#320
TomY90

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I say that TIM opinion of how to do things is the end justifies the means of doing so (like the sacrifice of people at horizon in ME2) which he showed this very well in ME2 and i am sure he will be showing this opinion in ME3 its just that him and shepherd (with my shepherd at least) have two very different ways of doing things.

Its just some people find his methods are spot on whereas others don't which I fall in that category

#321
Kaiser Shepard

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alienatedflea wrote...

I think anyone here would say that TIM's intentions are noble...to protect and advance human dominance which is noble as Hackett's intention in keeping law and order...

There is more to TIM than just human survivalism and dominance; he is a schemer, and schemers are never to be trusted.

#322
Dean_the_Young

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Because if there's one thing that history shows, it's that truisms are all true.

#323
Barquiel

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alienatedflea wrote...

I think anyone here would say that TIM's intentions are noble


not really

I don't agree with his methods, his motivations...or his goals.

#324
Dean_the_Young

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TIM's a product of the Council's galaxy, and it's affect on Humanity.

#325
Gyroscopic_Trout

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

TIM's a product of the Council's galaxy, and it's affect on Humanity.


Better than being the product of chain smoking, alcoholism and borderline nymphomania, I suppose.