1342 réponses à ce sujet

[Barquiel]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

And what will you do about the Alliance?

I would arrest everyone who supported/covered up Cerberus' crimes.

Even the major corporations?

Does Humanity really need a worsened economic blow after the death of billions on Earth?

I doubt arresting some corrupt chairmen would harm the economy.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Barquiel wrote...
I doubt arresting some corrupt chairmen would harm the economy.

And what if those corporate ties to Cerberus go deeper than just one corrupt chairman sending charity every couple of month?

You realize this witch hunt is going to take a lot of resources and time and many of the "corrupt" will be affected by it. But good thing Humanity has all the time and resources in the universe for that, it's not like it's going to get ****ed very soon.

[KnightofPhoenix]

michaelrsa wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
The risk of course is that those xenophobic extremists, who were kept in check by Cerberus, start resorting to other more destructive means to vent their frustration.

Then those actions will only make people side against them. All that violence during the civil rights era only strengthened the support of those fighting for it.

Sure, but I wouldn't want an actual human terrorist group sending asteroids into Batarian planets, and possibly provoking a war, regardless of how short sighted and idiotc such an act might be. Would you?

[Dean_the_Young]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The risk of course is that those xenophobic extremists, who were kept in check by Cerberus, start resorting to other more destructive means to vent their frustration.

You know, there's one piece of Cerberus history I've always scratched my head over in regards to other people.

It's an old fact that the Illusive Man put the leader of Terra Firma into power by killing his rival. He got the man he could more easily manipulate into the seat.

That's what we know. That's never been in question.

But, for some reason, almost everyone brings that up as a 'Cerberus is propogating extremism' view. As if, if it weren't for TIM, Terra Firma would be a moderate faction, wouldn't be as xeno-nationalistic, etc. etc.

My thought has always been 'why do people presume Claude Menneau[/b] to have been the nice guy?'

In the typical ME1 handling of Cerberus, motivations and contexts were never explored past the most superficial, if that. But no one has ever raised the possibility that Claude was the extremist, and that the Illusive Man wanted Charles Saracino to lead Terra Firma because Charles could have been the 'moderate.'

To my knowledge, no one has every raised the plausibility of Cerberus managing and even mitigating the more extreme, anti-Alien elements of Humanity.

[Dean_the_Young]

michaelrsa wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Let's start by the fact that the Alliance was the breeding ground and actual creator of Cerberus, and move on to the fact that the Alliance is a political entity entirely dedicated to defending humans from aliens.

The Alliance defends humanity from aliens just as much as the U.S. government defends Americans from the rest of the world. 

The Alliance is not that petty where they think that every other species is out to get them.

...michaelrsa, that's why the Alliance created Cerberus. Because incredibly important, influential parts of the Alliance don't trust the Aliens, and for valid historic reason (read: a certain unprovoked war that most everyone over the age of 35 remembers).

The USA runs some pretty dark and disturbing **** as well, in the name of protecting the US from other parts of the world. That doesn't mean that everyone else is the enemy,  but then that doesn't mean they don't spy on their friends. (Or that their don't spy on them as well.)

[Dean_the_Young]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Barquiel wrote...
I doubt arresting some corrupt chairmen would harm the economy.

And what if those corporate ties to Cerberus go deeper than just one corrupt chairman sending charity every couple of month?

You realize this witch hunt is going to take a lot of resources and time and many of the "corrupt" will be affected by it. But good thing Humanity has all the time and resources in the universe for that, it's not like it's going to get ****ed very soon.

Remember the CDN articles about the media witchhunt after it was discovered that Cerberus sometimes hid signals in galactic news broadcasts?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
But, for some reason, almost everyone brings that up as a 'Cerberus is propogating extremism' view. As if, if it weren't for TIM, Terra Firma would be a moderate faction, wouldn't be as xeno-nationalistic, etc. etc.

My thought has always been 'why do people presume Claude Menneau[/b] to have been the nice guy?'

Claude was leading the poll. If Terra Firma is as xenophobic and extremists as many claim, one reason that could explain why Claude was more popular is because he was more hardline and extremist. 

Cerberus already assassinated a pope for being too hardline with the Salarians, so I don't see why not.

To my knowledge, no one has every raised the plausibility of Cerberus managing and even mitigating the more extreme, anti-Alien elements of Humanity.

I wouldn't be surprised if it was in the Alliance's rational when they helped establish Cerberus in the first place. To keep the extremists in check and keep them busy in mostly non-destructive ways.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 27 avril 2011 - 04:19 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

michaelrsa wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Sure, but I wouldn't want an actual human terrorist group sending asteroids into Batarian planets, and possibly provoking a war, regardless of how short sighted and idiotc such an act might be. Would you?

I don't see it as to likely. Sure, the batarians raid us every now and ****** people off but the batarians are a lot more pissed at us. We've taken territory they wanted, made them weaker and poorer. 

That's a hell of a lot worse than the occasional raids they perform on us.

All it takes is a small group of human victims of the Skyllian Blitz to make it happen. Batarians also hurt a lot of humans. It wouldnt' take much to have human extremists do what the Batarian groups are doing.

[Barquiel]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

And what will you do about the Alliance?

I would arrest everyone who supported/covered up Cerberus' crimes.

Why would you arrest Shepard, Garrus, Tali, Thane, Samara, Legion, and potentially even the Council and Anderson?

Why should I arrest Anderson or the council?

Thane and Garrus are certainly criminals, but they didn't help Cerberus to experiment on helpless children, asari, etc.
They helped Shep to defeat the collectors, that's no crime.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Barquiel wrote...
I doubt arresting some corrupt chairmen would harm the economy.

And what if those corporate ties to Cerberus go deeper than just one corrupt chairman sending charity every couple of month?

You realize this witch hunt is going to take a lot of resources and time and many of the "corrupt" will be affected by it. But good thing Humanity has all the time and resources in the universe for that, it's not like it's going to get ****ed very soon.

Remember the CDN articles about the media witchhunt after it was discovered that Cerberus sometimes hid signals in galactic news broadcasts?

Eh, I need to read those, I've forgotten a lot.

[Dean_the_Young]

michaelrsa wrote...

I don't deny that the U.S. doesn't do dark **** and I agree that we spy on our allies as much as they spy on us. But America doesn't assassinate politicians of it's colder allies or experiment on it's citizenry.

America has done both in spades since WW2.

Hell, the US ran a special operations cell that kidnapped and tortured American generals and admirals. Why? To test security. (Look up Red Cell.)

An organization run by the Alliance and monitored by them would not experiment on Asari and would not assassinate turian politicians.

That's precisely what Cerberus did in Project Trapdoor, long before it ever went rogue.

Heck, the Alliance will even send (Renegade) Shepard to assassinate someone.

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Cerberus was being used to assassinate troublesome people for the Alliance during the time it was under Alliance 'moderation'. In fact, Cerberus's most horrific atrocities were while it was an Alliance organ.

There seems this bizaar nostalgia from some people about a time when government ownership made Cerberus a more responsible actor.

Again, proof? The only information we have regarding Cerberus assassinations are ones specificly related to Cerberus' agenda rather than the Alliance's. You have presented no proof as to when they actually went rogue, only assumptions that you have failed to back up.

[didymos1120]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

My thought has always been 'why do people presume Claude Menneau to have been the nice guy?'

Could be based on Ashley's comments during the Terra Firma sidequest in ME1.

[Dean_the_Young]

Barquiel wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

And what will you do about the Alliance?

I would arrest everyone who supported/covered up Cerberus' crimes.

Why would you arrest Shepard, Garrus, Tali, Thane, Samara, Legion, and potentially even the Council and Anderson?

Why should I arrest Anderson or the council?

If they gave a Cerberus cell leader Spectre status in support of a number of Cerberus-related crimes, that's certainly supporting Cerberus crimes.

Thane and Garrus are certainly criminals, but they didn't help Cerberus to experiment on helpless children, asari, etc.

That's hardly the only measure of support, as I'm sure you're aware.

Handing over classified Turian military technology has got to be worth something these days, after all.

They helped Shep to defeat the collectors, that's no crime.

There were a lot of crimes associated with defeating the Collectors. Horizon just being one of them. Profiting Cerberus and handing them a great deal of technology (for the tech bounties or ship/party upgrades) would certainly also count.

Seriously, Cerberus made bank off of Shepard, even without the Collector Base.

[Dean_the_Young]

didymos1120 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

My thought has always been 'why do people presume Claude Menneau to have been the nice guy?'

Could be based on Ashley's comments during the Terra Firma sidequest in ME1.

All that supports, if I remember what you're referring to, is that she thinks Charles is a jackal. That doesn't mean Claude wasn't worse. (Especially since Claude never comes up.)

[KnightofPhoenix]

didymos1120 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

My thought has always been 'why do people presume Claude Menneau to have been the nice guy?'

Could be based on Ashley's comments during the Terra Firma sidequest in ME1.

She talks positevely about the founding fathers. Not the current day Terra Firma.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 27 avril 2011 - 04:27 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Cerberus was being used to assassinate troublesome people for the Alliance during the time it was under Alliance 'moderation'. In fact, Cerberus's most horrific atrocities were while it was an Alliance organ.

There seems this bizaar nostalgia from some people about a time when government ownership made Cerberus a more responsible actor.

Again, proof?

Timeline... unless you intend to argue that Cerberus has been rogue for most of its existence.

The only information we have regarding Cerberus assassinations are ones specificly related to Cerberus' agenda rather than the Alliance's.

That's a self-defined distinction on your part. Plenty of assassinations we know of have had benefits, both explicit and plausible, for the Alliance. And, of course, when Cerberus and the Alliance aren't separated, something that is good for Cerberus's agenda is good for the Alliance's agenda, because the Alliance still owns Cerberus's agenda.

You have presented no proof as to when they actually went rogue, only assumptions that you have failed to back up.

We know they went rogue some reletave time before ME1. How do we know this? Kohaku.

Claiming they've been rogue for all their history is the far more serious claim to be substantiated.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 27 avril 2011 - 04:32 .

[didymos1120]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

My thought has always been 'why do people presume Claude Menneau to have been the nice guy?'

Could be based on Ashley's comments during the Terra Firma sidequest in ME1.

She talks positevely about the founding fathers. Not the current day Terra Firma.

What's your point?  Dean asked where people might have gotten the idea from.  People misremember details all the time.

[Dean_the_Young]

didymos1120 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

My thought has always been 'why do people presume Claude Menneau to have been the nice guy?'

Could be based on Ashley's comments during the Terra Firma sidequest in ME1.

She talks positevely about the founding fathers. Not the current day Terra Firma.

What's your point?  Dean asked where people might have gotten the idea from.  People misremember details all the time.

Well, I'll settle for 'assuming.' Plus a little 'anyone badly affected by a bad person must be good' syndrome.

[KnightofPhoenix]

didymos1120 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

My thought has always been 'why do people presume Claude Menneau to have been the nice guy?'

Could be based on Ashley's comments during the Terra Firma sidequest in ME1.

She talks positevely about the founding fathers. Not the current day Terra Firma.

What's your point?  Dean asked where people might have gotten the idea from.  People misremember details all the time.

That what she said is not enough to say that Claude was moderate. I know you were simply stating where they could have gotten it from.

[Moiaussi]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Even the major corporations?

Does Humanity really need a worsened economic blow after the death of billions on Earth?

There is this blind assumption on the parts of many that specific corporations are de facto good for the economy. Corporations generally are good for the economy, and most are good for the economy, but it doesn't follow that every corporation is good for the economy.

Besides the fact that the corporation could be employing very few while producing goods that are overall harmful to the economy, it could well be that another corp that is more ethical could produce the same goods or services without working against the interests of the majority.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Moiaussi wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Even the major corporations?

Does Humanity really need a worsened economic blow after the death of billions on Earth?

There is this blind assumption on the parts of many that specific corporations are de facto good for the economy. Corporations generally are good for the economy, and most are good for the economy, but it doesn't follow that every corporation is good for the economy.

And what if those who are good for the economy also happen to be Cerberus sympathizers?
What's your point?