1342 réponses à ce sujet

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Timeline.

There is no entry on the timeline for when Cerberus went rogue, only for when they were declared rogue.

That's a self-defined distinction on your part. Plenty of assassinations we know of have had benefits, both explicit and plausible, for the Alliance.

But the timeline you cite as evidence states 'pro-Cerberus', not 'pro-Alliance.' How does assassinating an Alliance senator further 'the Alliance?"

We know they went rogue shortly before ME1. How do we know this? Kohaku.

Claiming they've been rogue for all their history is the far more serious claim to be substantiated.

No, we know that is when Akuze happened. That is when Kohaku started investigating. They presumably went rogue sometime before that, but we don't know precisely when.

[Moiaussi]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

And what if those who are good for the economy also happen to be Cerberus sympathizers?
What's your point?

There are different levels of support and they are normally treated differently. The vast majority of Germans were not held responsible for the acts of their Government after WWII, other than reparations payments. The vast majority of soldiers weren't even held responsible other than financially by way of being citizens as above.

If a corp is supporting Cerberus to the level of providing parts for, say, Overlord (or equivalent) it isn't the same level of 'support' as making a donation, or selling them shipping crates.

If they are supporting Cerberus to too high a degree, then arguably they aren't good for the economy, since they are making it harder for the government to fight Cerberus, and therefore a net drain on the economy. A few shareholders gain, making the economy seem stronger on paper, but the majority are worse off, meaning the economy isn't as robust as it seems.

At the end of the day, a larger amount of non renewable resources have to be expended without any benefits, so the economy is worse off.

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]Moiaussi wrote...

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

Timeline.[/quote]

There is no entry on the timeline for when Cerberus went rogue, only for when they were declared rogue.[/quote]See change for elaboration, unless you wish to maintain that Cerberus has been rogue for the vast majority of its existence.

[quote]
[quote]That's a self-defined distinction on your part. Plenty of assassinations we know of have had benefits, both explicit and plausible, for the Alliance.[/quote]

But the timeline you cite as evidence states 'pro-Cerberus', not 'pro-Alliance.' How does assassinating an Alliance senator further 'the Alliance?" [/quote]Why does any in-house removal ever seem like a good thing? Because a member of the group can be a greater burden/obstacle to the goals of the group. It is not inherently illogical to remove an obstructionist member of a group, though assassination of course is still criminal.

[quote]We know they went rogue shortly before ME1. How do we know this? Kohaku.

Claiming they've been rogue for all their history is the far more serious claim to be substantiated. [/quote]

No, we know that is when Akuze happened. That is when Kohaku started investigating. They presumably went rogue sometime before that, but we don't know precisely when.
[/quote]Kohaku didn't start investigating after Akuze. Kohaku started investigating an entirely different Thresher Maw trap-incident discovered during ME1.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Moiaussi wrote...
If they are supporting Cerberus to too high a degree, then arguably they aren't good for the economy, since they are making it harder for the government to fight Cerberus, and therefore a net drain on the economy.

Assuming that the government is actually fighting Cerberus, while we know that many in the higher echelons sympathize with it and  / or tolerate it (including Hackett). 

Furthermore, benefits from helping Cerberus, such as new experimental products or weapons (like the arc projectors), can very well conpensate for the spending that the government is making to supposedely fight Cerberus. Not to mention Cerberus' own legit firms and what they potentially offer the the economy.

So it needs to be taken on a case by case basis, which ends uip being more about their performance in the economy rather than affiliatons or ties to Cerberus, which is not what the post I responded to in the first place wanted.

[Moiaussi]

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

There is no entry on the timeline for when Cerberus went rogue, only for when they were declared rogue.[/quote]See change for elaboration, unless you wish to maintain that Cerberus has been rogue for the vast majority of its existence.[/quote]

Given something called the "Cerberus manefesto" was published anonymously prior to any Alliance branch by that name showing up (prior to the Alliance even becoming a formal government, at that time it was still just operating under a UN style charter), it may well be that Cerberus started rogue. Note there is no entry on the timeline for the actual formation of Cerberus. It is also possible it never was an Alliance op at all, but Kahoku was fed misinformation by infiltrators.


[quote]Why does any in-house removal ever seem like a good thing? Because a member of the group can be a greater burden/obstacle to the goals of the group. It is not inherently illogical to remove an obstructionist member of a group, though assassination of course is still criminal.[/quote]

By definition, it isn't in house removal. You are confusing whichever political party might have been in power with Cerberus, and with the government as a whole. If 'the government' had enough votes to actually be 'the government', the dissenting member wouldn't have been an issue.

[quote]Kohaku didn't start investigating after Akuze. Kohaku started investigating an entirely different Thresher Maw trap-incident discovered during ME1.[/quote]

That doesn't make my point any less strong.  Discovering that Cerberus was rogue does not mean they only became rogue then. There was at least some level of alliance ties with Akuze though. Hackett sends you to investigate the deaths of "Alliance scientists." It is possible though that they started with Cerberus and infiltrated the Alliance later, after Akuze. And again, I am not the one making definite claims so the burdon of proof isn't on me. I only have to show plausability.

[Moiaussi]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Assuming that the government is actually fighting Cerberus, while we know that many in the higher echelons sympathize with it and  / or tolerate it (including Hackett). 

Furthermore, benefits from helping Cerberus, such as new experimental products or weapons (like the arc projectors), can very well conpensate for the spending that the government is making to supposedely fight Cerberus. Not to mention Cerberus' own legit firms and what they potentially offer the the economy.

So it needs to be taken on a case by case basis, which ends uip being more about their performance in the economy rather than affiliatons or ties to Cerberus, which is not what the post I responded to in the first place wanted.

Benefits which are not provided to the Alliance. We know for a fact in ME2 that there is considerable information that TIM withholds, including vital information such as proof of the Reaper's existance. It is a safe bet that Cerberus' legitimate firms likewise are not acting in the best interests of the economy. In fact, it is easier for Cerberus to promote itself as 'the solution' when the economy is doing poorly, since that is the kind of situation in which people are more likely to look to radical alternatives.

There is a commonly believed falacy that successful businesses are good for the economy, but that is pure ideology. It depends on how they are successful. Again, performance within an economy does not equate to performance for said economy.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Moiaussi wrote...
Benefits which are not provided to the Alliance.

How do you know? The Alliance is a political entity based on corporate alliances. If they are benefitting, chances are the Alliance is too. Whether you think this is a healthy political / economic structure is besides the point and involves much more than Cerberus.

We know for a fact in ME2 that there is considerable information that TIM withholds, including vital information such as proof of the Reaper's existance.

There was no proof of the Reaper's existence in ME2. Unless you mean the Collector base, but revealing such information would have been stupid and self-destructive. 

Furthermore, considering some within the Alliance and their attitude, they'd probably wouldn't believe them anyhow. Indeed, Anderson knows aobut the Reapers, and knows that Cerberus knows, and still thought it was a good idea to have Turians destory them.

It is a safe bet that Cerberus' legitimate firms likewise are not acting in the best interests of the economy. In fact, it is easier for Cerberus to promote itself as 'the solution' when the economy is doing poorly, since that is the kind of situation in which people are more likely to look to radical alternatives.

Except Cerberus does not have a public agenda or paltform to even claim to be the solution. They are not a populist movement either, they are not trying to gain popular support. So they gain nothign from a weakened Alliance. In fact, they stand to lose a lot, if the Alliance can no longer provide political and security stability necessary for corporations to function properly, including Cerberus' own firms and corporate allies.

There is a commonly believed falacy that successful businesses are good for the economy, but that is pure ideology. It depends on how they are successful. Again, performance within an economy does not equate to performance for said economy.

I am not interested in economic and idelogical debates, which goes way beyond Cerberus and the post I was responding to. Fact remains, the Alliance is built in part on Corporate tied interests.

[Moiaussi]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

How do you know? The Alliance is a political entity based on corporate alliances. If they are benefitting, chances are the Alliance is too. Whether you think this is a healthy political / economic structure is besides the point and involves much more than Cerberus.

Ok, where are you getting this from? The Alliance started as a charter between major Earth nations, and became a full government with a parliament. The whole 'corporate alliance' thing was pure speculation from one of the posters here (perhaps even you).

"Chances are" is just more ideology. And whether it is a healthy anything is exactly the point. How can you argue they are acting in the Alliance's best interests without any concern as to whether it is a healthy structure for the Alliance?

There was no proof of the Reaper's existence in ME2. Unless you mean the Collector base, but revealing such information would have been stupid and self-destructive. 

Furthermore, considering some within the Alliance and their attitude, they'd probably wouldn't believe them anyhow. Indeed, Anderson knows aobut the Reapers, and knows that Cerberus knows, and still thought it was a good idea to have Turians destory them.

How about the second, completely intact beacon they find? Hmmm... so a derelect reaper doesn't count as proof to you? No proof....

And Anderson doesn't "know." Anderson believes you but doesn't have any proof that could be used to convince anyone else.

Except Cerberus does not have a public agenda or paltform to even claim to be the solution. They are not a populist movement either, they are not trying to gain popular support. So they gain nothign from a weakened Alliance. In fact, they stand to lose a lot, if the Alliance can no longer provide political and security stability necessary for corporations to function properly, including Cerberus' own firms and corporate allies.

 
Really... then how is it that everyone and their dog seems to know who they are? Not to mention that you are completely ignoring the concept that Cerberus could establish the right mindset in people and then step in as 'the solution.'` They certainly show no interest in working with the Alliance or the Council, despite the imminent Reaper invasion.

I am not interested in economic and idelogical debates, which goes way beyond Cerberus and the post I was responding to. Fact remains, the Alliance is built in part on Corporate tied interests.

You don't want to engage in economic or ideological debates, but keep falling back on economic and ideological arguements. The Alliance is built on corporate interests to the extent corporations are a big part of the economy, but that does not equate to any given corporation being vital. Bre Ex Minerals Ltd. was a corporation. Do you believe it was vital to the Canadian economy?

[Moiaussi]

As for the suggestion that Cerberus is still part of the Alliance, perhaps someone should inform TIM of that.

TIM, from the prologue of Ascension:

They could not put their faith in the Alliance. A bloated coalition of government officials and diseparate military branches, the Alliance was a clumsy, blunt instrument, weighed down by laws, convention, and the crushing weight of public opinion. Too interested in appeasement and kowtowing to the various alien species, they were unable - or unwilling - to make the hard decisions neccessary to thrust humanity forward to its desitny

Note that there is no reference in his internal monologue to Cerberus ever having been part of the Alliance, and that the timeline mentions The Illusive Man as having been the author of the original manefesto calling for the formation of Cerberus.

[lovgreno]

Evil: No, merely blinded by idealism. Stupid: No, merely isolated. But they are unreliable and untrustworthy as proved by their actions and agendas.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Moiaussi wrote...
Ok, where are you getting this from? The Alliance started as a charter between major Earth nations, and became a full government with a parliament. The whole 'corporate alliance' thing was pure speculation from one of the posters here (perhaps even you).

Because no government is built without ties with corporations and economic actors.  Unless The alliance nationalized everything and is a command economy, which is not true.

"Chances are" is just more ideology. And whether it is a healthy anything is exactly the point. How can you argue they are acting in the Alliance's best interests without any concern as to whether it is a healthy structure for the Alliance?

And this goes way beyond Cerberus and the scope of this discussion.

How about the second, completely intact beacon they find? Hmmm... so a derelect reaper doesn't count as proof to you? No proof....

Well more interesting question is why didn't Shepard tell anyone?
The Beacon is not proof, it's Prothean tech and only those with the cypher can even understand what it's transmitting. And they've seen Sovereign first hand, and not only that, but the Turians reverse engineered tech from it and they all still believe it's a Geth warship. So even the Derelict Reaper, to those idiots, would not have been proof.

Really... then how is it that everyone and their dog seems to know who they are? Not to mention that you are completely ignoring the concept that Cerberus could establish the right mindset in people and then step in as 'the solution.'` They certainly show no interest in working with the Alliance or the Council, despite the imminent Reaper invasion.

This does not mean they have a public paltform and no, Kohaku didn't even know they existed.
And seeing how Cerberus only oeprates with 120 or so agents, it doens't need economic crises to establish the right mindset in people. The galaxy sucks well enough as it is for that.

You don't want to engage in economic or ideological debates, but keep falling back on economic and ideological arguements. The Alliance is built on corporate interests to the extent corporations are a big part of the economy, but that does not equate to any given corporation being vital. Bre Ex Minerals Ltd. was a corporation. Do you believe it was vital to the Canadian economy?

And where did I say that all corporations are vital? What I said to the person saying that all corporations involved with Cerberus need to be sacked, is that some if not many of them could play vital parts in the economy.

What you are discussing here goes beyond the scope of the original discussion and I am not interested in going on this tangent. If peopel want to start a thread on reforming the Alliance and the entire system, then go ahead.

[Moiaussi]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Not to mention sacking all those corporations would put a lot of people out of work.

You say that like the only corporations in existance are Cerberus fronts. Define 'a lot of people.' Keep in mind we are talking galactic empire scale here.

[armass]

I really don't get why Cerberus wants to stop Shepard in a middle of a reaper invasion, who is pivotal in saving the galaxy. Tim and his followers must be out of their minds. If Tim really is about saving humanity and all that. he should see that trying to kill their greatest hope can really only be downfall for that course, especially since their home planet is burning and millions are dying at the same time.

Modifié par armass, 27 avril 2011 - 07:46 .

[ExtremeOne]

The story of TIM and Cerberus turning on Shepard makes no sense at all

[Moiaussi]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Because no government is built without ties with corporations and economic actors.  Unless The alliance nationalized everything and is a command economy, which is not true.

While that is true, no nation has ever completely surrendered control to corporations either. Ties does not equate to controlling interests.

And this goes way beyond Cerberus and the scope of this discussion.

You are the one who keeps going back to this line of arguement. If you are going to use it, you have to be prepared to defend it. If you cannot defend it in a sufficiently concise way, you aren't arguing you are preaching.

Well more interesting question is why didn't Shepard tell anyone?
The Beacon is not proof, it's Prothean tech and only those with the cypher can even understand what it's transmitting. And they've seen Sovereign first hand, and not only that, but the Turians reverse engineered tech from it and they all still believe it's a Geth warship. So even the Derelict Reaper, to those idiots, would not have been proof.

It predated the existance of the Geth though. The beacon is proof in that unless they want to try to argue Saren randomly buried additional such beacons on random worlds where they may or may not be found, it is an independant source which backs up Shepard's story. Even without the Cypher, the name 'Reapers' sounded familiar to Shepard. Also the images were still there even if he wasn't fully able to interpret them. And both Shepard and Shiara (if alive) have the cypher, which we know for a fact can be passed on by Asari mind transfer.

This does not mean they have a public paltform and no, Kohaku didn't even know they existed.
And seeing how Cerberus only oeprates with 120 or so agents, it doens't need economic crises to establish the right mindset in people. The galaxy sucks well enough as it is for that.

 
And yet they have a HUGE effect on the economy. Wow, they are really productive! Have they considered just teaching that productivity to the rest of the Alliance? Why would they need all these outlandish schemes?

Kahoku (can you at least spell his name correctly?) may not have heard of them before but by ME2, everyone knows about them, they leaked the fact Shepard is working for them, and plaster their front company's logo all over the SR2 and Shepard's gear.

Oh, and they did publish their manefesto back just after the first contact war, so they did try a public platform approach.

Btw, the 'hero out of nowhere saves the day' approach is cliche and needs no advance propeganda campaign for said savior. In fact, if there is advance propeganda, people wonder why they weren't saved sooner.

And where did I say that all corporations are vital? What I said to the person saying that all corporations involved with Cerberus need to be sacked, is that some if not many of them could play vital parts in the economy.

What you are discussing here goes beyond the scope of the original discussion and I am not interested in going on this tangent. If peopel want to start a thread on reforming the Alliance and the entire system, then go ahead.

You have implied that 'all corporations working with Cerberus' equates to a significant portion of the Alliance economy, and that shutting them down would de facto harm said economy. You have to prove that Cerberus related corporations are vital. Instead of presenting any proof as to those specific corporations, you presented 'all corporartions are vital' .. and now you are crying foul when that gets questioned?

[Moiaussi]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Could be anywhere from tens of thousands to hudnreds of thousands, to even millions. Simply destroying a corporation because of ties to Cerberus is stupid and destructive.

Though, that really goes for any kind crusade against Cerberus.

Could be. Could also be that TIM is our Lord and Saviour and the 'Second Coming", sent by God himself to purge the Earth of sin.

You do realize that if Cerberus really was providing a significant market share in anything, other companies could simply take up the slack, don't you? Likely more efficiently too, since they wouldn't be supplying TIM's pet projects on the side.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Moiaussi wrote...
While that is true, no nation has ever completely surrendered control to corporations either. Ties does not equate to controlling interests.

And I never said it did.

You are the one who keeps going back to this line of arguement. If you are going to use it, you have to be prepared to defend it. If you cannot defend it in a sufficiently concise way, you aren't arguing you are preaching.

But you're missing my argument compeltely.

It predated the existance of the Geth though. The beacon is proof in that unless they want to try to argue Saren randomly buried additional such beacons on random worlds where they may or may not be found, it is an independant source which backs up Shepard's story. Even without the Cypher, the name 'Reapers' sounded familiar to Shepard. Also the images were still there even if he wasn't fully able to interpret them. And both Shepard and Shiara (if alive) have the cypher, which we know for a fact can be passed on by Asari mind transfer.

Except it was established that any ordinary mind would have been fried. Apparently only Shepard can handle it. So how do we know whose mind can handle it or not?

And even if it predates the Geth, nothing indicates it's part of a race of sentient machines who want to destroy all life.

Kahoku (can you at least spell his name correctly?) may not have heard of them before but by ME2, everyone knows about them, they leaked the fact Shepard is working for them, and plaster their front company's logo all over the SR2 and Shepard's gear.

Still not a mass populist movement with a public agenda and platform. And seeing how the Citadel and Illium  allow a Cerberus ship to dock with no problems, I doubt they knew about the logo either.

Oh, and they did publish their manefesto back just after the first contact war, so they did try a public platform approach.

Whether they tried or not is irrelevent. Fact is, Cerberus operates with 120 agents. They are not designed to be a mass populist movement.

You have implied that 'all corporations working with Cerberus' equates to a significant portion of the Alliance economy, and that shutting them down would de facto harm said economy. You have to prove that Cerberus related corporations are vital. Instead of presenting any proof as to those specific corporations, you presented 'all corporartions are vital' .. and now you are crying foul when that gets questioned?

No, I said major corporations, whether directly tied to Cerberus or sympathizing with it (like Miranda's father), can be a vital part of the economy especially when Earth is going to get screwed. So sacking them solely on the basis of their connection to Cebreus without evaluating their performance in the economy is reckless.

Since I don't happen to have an economic report on all those corporations and their contributions to the economy, of course I can't prove that all of them are vital and nor did I claim they were (nor can one prove they are not vital). What I said, is that they could be and without such knowledge, declaring unilaterally to want to sack them all is reckless. 

It would be best to read my argument as I am telling you to instead of tryign to figure out what I am implying or not implying.

[PMC65]

armass wrote...

I really don't get why Cerberus wants to stop Shepard in a middle of a reaper invasion, who is pivotal in saving the galaxy. Tim and his followers must be out of their minds. If Tim really is about saving humanity and all that. he should see that trying to kill their greatest hope can really only be downfall for that course, especially since their home planet is burning and millions are dying at the same time.

Hopefully Bioware has a valid reason that at least 65% of the pro-Cerberus players can work with. Now I don't trust either Alliance or Cerberus, but just saying "because they are evil" wouldn't work for me. TIM did not strike me as a stupid or petty man ... so I expect his reason to be logical (even if it is wrong).

I just hope that BW doesn't go the "indoctrinated", "TIM's a reaper" or "I wanted that collectors base" route ... that would be lame to me. I hope that maybe TIM has come across some intel that reveals something about Shepard that could make him/her a risk but you don't find out until you actually are in the room with TIM. Truth be told, no matter what Bioware does there will be unhappy people on both sides of the aisle.

[ExtremeOne]

They have some explaining to do

[Moiaussi]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

And I never said it did.

But you're missing my argument compeltely.

Then make your arguement more clearly please.

Except it was established that any ordinary mind would have been fried. Apparently only Shepard can handle it. So how do we know whose mind can handle it or not?

That was not actually established. Shepard was caught in an exploding beacon's transmission, not a normal transmission, and humans don't have the same telepathic capacity as Asari.

And even if it predates the Geth, nothing indicates it's part of a race of sentient machines who want to destroy all life.

How about the fact that when you get too deep into it, it reawakens and tries to destroy all life? Not to mention the fact that if EDI could get data from it, presumably a sufficiently powerful VI decryptor could too. Ideally one not tied into a ship's helm, life support, etc.

Still not a mass populist movement with a public agenda and platform. And seeing how the Citadel and Illium  allow a Cerberus ship to dock with no problems, I doubt they knew about the logo either.

They knew Shepard was working with Cerberus. They let him land and let him go. Illium is not Asari, it is independant (or at least functionally independant), hence the different contract law there.

You really don't know that trope, do you? Person or organization sets up a danger, then steps in to save the day. The whole point is to get instant recognition and hero worship. If you already have a mass populist movement there is no point.

Whether they tried or not is irrelevent. Fact is, Cerberus operates with 120 agents. They are not designed to be a mass populist movement.

That number is from EDI, and is the alleged number of 'agents.' Presumably the front companies do have more than that for employees if nothing else. Heck, the SR-1 had 51 crew that we know of. The SR-2 only has 20 that we know of, but since it is a larger ship, presumably has at least the same as the SR-1. So based on the 120, we are to believe that the Normandy represents nearly half of Cerberus? Very unlikely.

So either 'agents' has a specific meaning above and beyond field operatives, or EDI was deliberately given false information (which would fit with other false information TIM provided Shep).

No, I said major corporations, whether directly tied to Cerberus or sympathizing with it (like Miranda's father), can be a vital part of the economy especially when Earth is going to get screwed. So sacking them solely on the basis of their connection to Cebreus without evaluating their performance in the economy is reckless.

Since I don't happen to have an economic report on all those corporations and their contributions to the economy, of course I can't prove that all of them are vital and nor did I claim they were (nor can one prove they are not vital). What I said, is that they could be and without such knowledge, declaring unilaterally to want to sack them all is reckless. 

It would be best to read my argument as I am telling you to instead of tryign to figure out what I am implying or not implying.

Besides the repeated assumption that such corporations are numerous enough to matter, I did mention that the penalties would normally vary based on level of involvement. If they are just sympathizers with no actual support, then likely nothing. If they are contributers, then likely fines. If they are complacent, then worse.

And corporations are interesting things. There are options other than literal destruction, such as penalizing the board (and requiring a change in the board of directors) and/or appropriation with or without resale. The corp can continue to exist while removing ties to Cerberus.

And of course some level of knowledge would be needed, otherwise you would be eliminating all corps on the theory that they might have ties to Cerberus.

If a major corporation was suddenly discovered to be dealing large quantities of crack as part of their operations, with the knowledge of the CEO and owners, do you really think though that the fact they are profitable and therefore 'helping the economy' should mean all involved left unpunished simply because it might hurt the economy to shut them down?

[Moiaussi]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

Could be. Could also be that TIM is our Lord and Saviour and the 'Second Coming", sent by God himself to purge the Earth of sin.

How about we don't make ridiculous assumptions?

That was my point exactly.