1342 réponses à ce sujet

[008Zulu]

Just an updated tally here. The Alliance has maybe one mark against it for putting nukes in its probes, as opposed to Ceberus' laundry list. If it's a distinction of the lesser of two evils then the pro-Cerberus posters are still back the greater evil.

If you want, go ahead and post something that casts the Alliance in the same grim dark shadow that Cerberus is skulking around in. As before only events or facts from the two existing games are permitted due to not everyone reading the books/comics.

Modifié par 008Zulu, 30 avril 2011 - 05:04 .

[Raiil]

I'm late to the game, but I'm sort of confused as to how it can be assumed that being anti-Cerberus is pro-Alliance or pro-Council. I can't speak for everyone, but I'm anti-Cerberus and anti-Council. Hell, I don't even care for the Alliance. I'm pro-everyone who gets on my ship and pro-saving the galaxy in general, and the terrorists and politicking power players can eat my antiproton thrusters.

Sure, I'll take their money, because saving the entire galaxy is expensive and that thanix cannon isn't going to pay for itself, but I can go my own way and play them as hard as they think they're playing me.

[ExtremeOne]

The alliance is evil they think that rules do not apply to them.

[didymos1120]

ExtremeOne wrote...

The alliance is evil they think that rules do not apply to them.

And Cerberus does think the rules apply to them?  Which rules are we talking about exactly anyway?

[ExtremeOne]

didymos1120 wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

The alliance is evil they think that rules do not apply to them.

And Cerberus does think the rules apply to them?  Which rules are we talking about exactly anyway?

   



well we all know Cerberus has no need for rules. but how can the alliance act all high and mighty and then basically steal the SR 2 in 3 .  

[CroGamer002]

^Because it's their technology used on Normandy SR-2 that Cerberus stole from them and Shepard used to be part of Alliance.

That's why.

[Seboist]

Mesina2 wrote...

^Because it's their technology used on Normandy SR-2 that Cerberus stole from them and Shepard used to be part of Alliance.

That's why.

Normandy has always been Cerberus' idea, even the first one.

[Jagri]

ExtremeOne wrote...
well we all know Cerberus has no need for rules. but how can the alliance act all high and mighty and then basically steal the SR 2 in 3.  

Well offically Cerberus is considered terrorist organization in the Mass Effect universe. That gives the Alliance ever right to cease there assets/vessels and do so legally.

Modifié par Jagri, 30 avril 2011 - 10:05 .

[ExtremeOne]

Jagri wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...
well we all know Cerberus has no need for rules. but how can the alliance act all high and mighty and then basically steal the SR 2 in 3.  

Well offically Cerberus is considered terrorist organization in the Mass Effect universe. That gives the Alliance ever right to cease there assets/vessels and do so legally.

  



Then it gives My Shepard every right to disobey and not follow the orders of the alliance in 3 .  its easy to call one a terrorist when the alliance does nothing in the face of a threat to humanity as in the collectors . 

[ExtremeOne]

Jagri wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...
well we all know Cerberus has no need for rules. but how can the alliance act all high and mighty and then basically steal the SR 2 in 3.  

Well offically Cerberus is considered terrorist organization in the Mass Effect universe. That gives the Alliance ever right to cease there assets/vessels and do so legally.

  



Its called bull sh*t and stupid as if the alliance is gods of the galaxy . They are not gods in fact they are a bunch of alien loving pricks .   

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]008Zulu wrote...


Its effectivness is not the matter at hand.
[/quote]It was once you made a point of it.

[quote]
I was unaware that steroids are in fact acid, since it was specifically acid I was referring to.[/quote]Any chemical compound can be acid. All the category 'acid' implies is a pH of less than 7: a substance with a pH of more than 7 is a 'base.' About the only thing with a pH of exactly seven is distilled water.

Medicines already cross the pH barrier on both sides.

[quote]
He too is pro-Cerberus. Oh, check the registration dates, I was Zulu first.[/quote]And you're a newcomer to this section of the board.

[quote]
Links from reputable sources, psychology magazines, wikipedia articles. Whatever you can find to back up your claim.[/quote]Not only avoiding the question of why what I did provide was an unreputable source, but you're claiming a wikipedia article is reputable?

What is this ****?

[quote]
So if you wanted fix a broken leg you would use a welding torch? If you don't know what your working on how can you be expected to fix it?[/quote]Because you don't need to know all of something in order to do anything about it. Your attempt at reducto ad absurdem aside, broken bones were being set and put into splints long before humans understood that bones were made of calcium, how they naturally healed, or better medicines to make them go better.

Perfect knowledge has never been a requirement for improvement and foundational knowledge. Cars, nuclear devices, electricity, and biology are all fields with long histories of this.

[quote]
Oh...zing! When they developed Lazarus (or traded humans to the Collectors for the tech, who knows), They couldn't have injected all sorts of chemicals and affixed all sorts of bone grafting cybernetics without know how it might affect the surrounding tissue.[/quote]Since neither Cerberus or anyone else knew whether bringing Shepard back from the dead was possible before it was achieved, they pretty much invented the knowledge on the fly. There was no 'this is how you bring someone from the dead': they broke scientific ground by testing unproven ideas and theories.

[quote]
The majority didn't presume anything. they knew it was morally wrong and set about to change it.[/quote]Except, of course, for the super-majority of human history when the Majority didn't see racism as wrong, and saw it as good.

The Majority only changed because the minority did the immoral thing, opposing both the law and the majority, and gained enough political influence to exact concessions and force a cultural shift that favored them until they were the majority. There was no enlightened majority: there was a determined minority action that used every trick in the book to get it's way until it broke The Majority's will to resist and set into place a status quo which saw views change.

[quote]
And those components were the various crimes Cerberus has commited.[/quote]Exactly what I said awhile ago. The majority has no place in the matter of it being wrong or not.
[quote]
It wasn't designed to affect pollitical change, it was to scare them in to not interfering with Cerberus projects.[/quote]No, it wasn't.
[quote]
I'm sure the Quarians are appreciative of that distinction.[/quote]And I'm sure you're appreciative of having the very context of the argument you've taken be handed to you.

Whether Quarians like Tali are appreciative of the distinction is irrelevant to the existence of the distinction.

[quote]

We can only assume facts in evidence. Acid was said to be what was injected, a medical exam once Toombs escaped would have confirmed that.[/quote]Pure acid was never claimed to be what was injected. There was no medical exam after Toombs escaped in regards to any position: you're inventing your own evidence right after you claim you can only assume facts in evidence.
[quote]
Given that he was an infiltration specialts he could easily have been in and out before anyone knew he was there, he and his team slipped past the Krogan defenses on numerous occasions during the Genophage project. Krogan are much smater and better prepared than Vorcha.[/quote]He and his team were also Salarian infiltrators, supplied and armed, and benefiting from STG tactical excellence, intelligence, being in their prime, and able to hide across the majority of a wrecked planet only habitable on its margins.

Not an old salarian, a handful of mechs, and a distinct lack of heavy firepower between them, literally trying to slip through a number of lines of forces without being noticed. Mordin has never claimed to be a ninja.


[quote]
He was knocked out while trying to lower the field for Shepard, if Shepard hadn't of been there Legion wouldn't have been caught flat footed, Legion's escape path wasn't the way Shepard came in. He could have approached under no thrust in a small enough craft, he wouldn't have been detected. He can manifest drones and hack synthetics to do his bidding.[/quote]He would have had to lower the field for himself: Shepard's presence was irrelevant to being locked in a barrier-room with waves of husks and abominations, and the only exit of that room being blocked by a number of Scions and Abominations that Shepard cleared right before entering.

'Small' is irrelevant in the Mass Effect universe: a small ship is not a stealth ship. Legion's geth enemies can also manifest drones, while Legion is under the same hacking risks in reverse by all the lore.
[quote]

The course of Mass Effect 2 takes place over a relatively short period of time, true that there is no official measurement of time, given the jumps between systems (per Shadowbroker where jumping between systems can take a few hours, and the combat takes place in realtime) it is likely the story took approximately 2 weeks to a month to complete. The finding of Object Rho, based on what the Doctor tells us, takes place almost at exactly the same time Shepard wakes up. Smuggling in the parts to build the base and engines took several weeks.[/quote]Bioware has mentioned in the past that the time frame of Mass Effect is a matter of monthes, not weeks

[quote]
Start up Mass Effect 1, engage a Thresher on foot and see how long you last.[/quote]Why doesn't the Thresher Maw I killed on foot in ME2 count? 
[quote]
Even the codex entries state it as being acid. These are not assumptions.[/quote]Yes, because clearly that tidbit was exactly what I was refering to.

This site needs a good eye-roll.

[quote]
In the Mass Effect universe this is not a clear distinction, people say they are from different countries, but there are no racial prejudices which indicate a kind of informal unity.[/quote]...unless you both to read the codex about the nature of politics and events on Earth, hear the differences from the Colonial to the Space to the Slum backgrounds, or

[quote]
If they volunteer for the good of the group, yes. But if they are forced or otherwise coerced then all sense of acheivement or nobility is tainted.[/quote]That's a particular cultural view, and one that I doubt is even universal in your own perception. We compell personal sacrifices in money for taxes, in abiding civil laws that hurt no one else directly, and in all sorts of areas. Compulsion and enforcement are components of nearly every culture on the Earth this day, and at varying levels.


[quote]
My ass it was rogue. Information is TIM's weapon, he was very clear on that. He would have known. What of Gillian, from what you say she and Jack have a common thread in their history. Just how many Cerberus cells have gone rogue?[/quote]At this point: one. Teltin. Overlord lapsed for a reason other than being rogue.

That you're really arguing against Teltin's own evidence and without evidence of any deceit on their or TIM's part, despite your prior claims that we can only go off evidence present, is highly hypocritical.
[quote]
As the number goes up and up, so does TIM's level of incompetance. Also, accept is not a word I would use, force is more like it.[/quote]All cultural views are forced on their followers by varying means of coercion and broadcast. Whether you mandate by laws and police that children be taken to schools and indoctrinated into the cultural belief system and then punish them when they ere, or you get a kid high on drugs to the point he doesn't want to quit and will do the same to others, coercion and indoctrination are the cornerstones of cultural maintanence.

[quote]
Tell you what, get some hydrochloric acid and inject it in to your own veins, then tell us what good it has done for you.[/quote]Now why would I have to do that? No claim was ever made that all chemistry is good injected in you.

[quote]

They wouldn't have gone there if TIM didn't tell them. [/quote]The Collectors were after all human colonies. The idea that, after attacking and sacking an increasing number of Human colonies without provocation, that they would have stopped for no reason and ignorred the rest is, to put it in a word, crazy.
[quote]
And why didn't he choose a smaller colony in order to minimise casualties? Since he set the whole thing up he could have timed it so the Normandy got there before there were too many taken.[/quote]No, he couldn't necessarily have done that. Since he can only set up where the colony is, and not where Shepard will be at the (also non-controllable) time the Collectors strike there, if they strike there at all, and as TIM later demonstrates a (justified) fear that the Normandy 2 could be infiltrated and have intelligence leaks, any trap has to be big enough to take the Collectors an enough time to work through so that Commander Shepard can alive.

If the colony is too small, the Collectors can take all the people and get away before Shepard even arrives, or even finish while Shepard is there and escape before any Cerberus-prompted defense canons can open up on them. A small colony would also be unusual to receive an Alliance gift of defense canons at TIM's prompting, since there would be more logical, and larger, colonies to make ties with. As another matter, colonies nearer to mass relays tend to be larger for obvious reasons, while the mass relays themselves radically decrease the time for Shepard to arrive.

The primary determining factors are the time it would take Shepard to be there (a reason why Horizon is in the same solar system as a Mass Relay) and the ease of covertly manipulating fire-support (colonies below a certain size wouldn't warrant tower defenses without rousing suspicion).

[quote]
Are they not vilified for these actions?[/quote]Not always. Mainly if they lose a war.
[quote]Do we not condem the leaders for allowing it to happen?[/quote]Not really, and especially not if they produce other successes. Democratic societies have historically shown they don't care what the government does so long as they win and are comfortable and the unpleasant things are farther from memory. It's only when they aren't winning (a stale-mated or losing war) or aren't comfortable (social anxieties) that they become eager to turn on their own politicians.

Even then, sins of past leaders are largely forgotten in lieu of canonization of their triumphs.

[quote]

What is truly mindblowing is that in the sentance I wrote you somehow extrapolated that I said constant fighting accross the globe. I said "constant fighting" as in there has been armed conflict at some point on the planet for a cumulative total of 2920 of the last 3000 years. Since you appear to have a modicum of intelligence, I expected you to be able to make the distinction.
[/quote]As you were making an argument that 2920 was a relevant number for all the cultures on the planet in opposition to a post of cultural idealism-cynicism in the presence of war, that extrapolation was entirely your own creation.

[The BS Police]

ExtremeOne wrote...

The alliance is evil they think that rules do not apply to them.

If that was the case then they wouldn't be putting Shepard on trial for killing over 300,000 Batarians.

Modifié par The BS Police, 30 avril 2011 - 12:33 .

[Dean_the_Young]

008Zulu wrote...

Just an updated tally here. The Alliance has maybe one mark against it for putting nukes in its probes, as opposed to Ceberus' laundry list. If it's a distinction of the lesser of two evils then the pro-Cerberus posters are still back the greater evil.

If you want, go ahead and post something that casts the Alliance in the same grim dark shadow that Cerberus is skulking around in. As before only events or facts from the two existing games are permitted due to not everyone reading the books/comics.

The Alliance made and owned Cerberus for decades before Cerberus broke free.

And no, books/comics that are canon are canon: people who ignore them are no more exempt than people who don't read the codex entries or talk to certain characters in the game.

[Moiaussi]

ExtremeOne wrote...

well we all know Cerberus has no need for rules. but how can the alliance act all high and mighty and then basically steal the SR 2 in 3 .  

You figure that if you sailed a warship into any given country's waters without their express permission that they would be 'stealing' to confiscate it? I am not sure even the NRA takes 'the right to bear arms' to that extreme.

[Moiaussi]

By the way, the only reference to Cerberus being a rogue Alliance op was Kahoku's speculation. The codex doesn't make any such reference. Anyone have any other references?

Given the level of infiltration Kahoku had claimed, isn't it plausable that it never was an Alliance op and that was either an incorrect conclusion on Kahoku's part or misinformation deliberately fed to him?

[Raiil]

The BS Police wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

The alliance is evil they think that rules do not apply to them.

If that was the case then they wouldn't be putting Shepard on trial for killing over 300,000 Batarians.

Yeah, but that just smacks of politics. 'Sorry we're going to try you as a war criminal for doing the job one of our own admirals set you up for, where we didn't allow you to take witnesses, thus making us look like righteous do-gooders and throwing you under the drive core in the process.'

I'm sure it's all about due process.  

[Seboist]

Moiaussi wrote...

By the way, the only reference to Cerberus being a rogue Alliance op was Kahoku's speculation. The codex doesn't make any such reference. Anyone have any other references?

Given the level of infiltration Kahoku had claimed, isn't it plausable that it never was an Alliance op and that was either an incorrect conclusion on Kahoku's part or misinformation deliberately fed to him?

IIRC Kahoku didn't mention the Alliance was "infiltrated" by them, just that they were only known by top Alliance brass.

[Arijharn]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Racism was always morally wrong and intellectually flawed, regardless of the legality. Majority presumption doesn't change that.

At the risk of quoting out of context here; I want to point something out. The argument that Racism was always morally wrong is the wrong approach to make imo, because morals evolve with society. Sure, we recognise it for the bs it is now, but society has changed quite a bit from the 1800's for example. 

[Bad King]

didymos1120 wrote...

naledgeborn wrote...

So, why exactly does Extreme One hate the Alliance?

Because they're not sufficiently extreme.  Not like Cerberus.

Actually the Alliance is very extreme, a lot of Cerberus's unethical activities were performed before they went rogue.

Too many people have an over the top hatred of Cerberus while being overly trusting of the Alliance. We should really be critical of both organisations while also accepting that they could both be strong allies. 

Modifié par Bad King, 30 avril 2011 - 03:12 .

[008Zulu]

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...
It was once you made a point of it.
[/quote]

I made a comparison. Besides it doesn't alter that fact that testing on an unwilling human subject is morally and ethically wrong.

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...
Any chemical compound can be acid. All the category 'acid' implies is a pH of less than 7: a substance with a pH of more than 7 is a 'base.' About the only thing with a pH of exactly seven is distilled water.

Medicines already cross the pH barrier on both sides.
[/quote]

So you are comparing steroids to Thresher acid or any sort of chemical compound that can eat through steel (or whatever the Mako was made of)?

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...
And you're a newcomer to this section of the board.
[/quote]

So?

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...
Not only avoiding the question of why what I did provide was an unreputable source, but you're claiming a wikipedia article is reputable?
[/quote]

You might have cited a reputable source, but you never gave credit to where or who the info originally came from. And I only included wikipedia as an option just in case you couldn't provide an actual real source.

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...
Because you don't need to know all of something in order to do anything about it. Your attempt at reducto ad absurdem aside, broken bones were being set and put into splints long before humans understood that bones were made of calcium, how they naturally healed, or better medicines to make them go better.

Perfect knowledge has never been a requirement for improvement and foundational knowledge. Cars, nuclear devices, electricity, and biology are all fields with long histories of this.
[/quote]

A perfect (or somewhat better knowledge) of nuclear physics, and Chernobyl's engineers might have been able to avert the disaster. If Edision had a perfect (or somewhat better) knowledge of electricity as he claimed, he would have known Tesla was right about alternating current being safer.

But perhaps you may be right about something there, a lack of basic knowledge of chemistry and biology certainly doesn't stop Cerberus's "scientists".

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...
Since neither Cerberus or anyone else knew whether bringing Shepard back from the dead was possible before it was achieved, they pretty much invented the knowledge on the fly. There was no 'this is how you bring someone from the dead': they broke scientific ground by testing unproven ideas and theories.
[/quote]

How many test subjects do you think they wen't through perfecting the technology? TIM wouldn't risk an untested medical procedure on someone as important as Shepard. It is astronomically improbable they got it right the first time, unless they did in fact trade the Collectors for the tech.

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...
Except, of course, for the super-majority of human history when the Majority didn't see racism as wrong, and saw it as good.

The Majority only changed because the minority did the immoral thing, opposing both the law and the majority, and gained enough political influence to exact concessions and force a cultural shift that favored them until they were the majority. There was no enlightened majority: there was a determined minority action that used every trick in the book to get it's way until it broke The Majority's will to resist and set into place a status quo which saw views change.[/quote]

So I wonder, will the majority of the pro-Cerbs still buy ME3 knowing that their beloved TIM is looking to stick a knife in their belly? All indicators appear to point them as one of the permenant enemies, no chance of joing back with them. If they don't, does that mean they are right?

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...
Exactly what I said awhile ago. The majority has no place in the matter of it being wrong or not.[/quote]

So we agreed that Cerberus has commited man unforgivable crimes then?

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...
No, it wasn't.[/quote]

Well covering their tracks by destroying a ship is about as stupid a thing as Cerberus has done. The Quarian forensic team would have detected residue from any kind of explosive. My guess is their first guess would be to lay the blame at someone who hates aliens and has the resources to sneak in and blow up a ship, Cerberus.

You may need to correct me here, so feel free. This Gillian, she would have told the Quarians that Cerberus was after her. So if the ship she is on suddenly blows up, they will know who to go looking for.

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...
And I'm sure you're appreciative of having the very context of the argument you've taken be handed to you.

Whether Quarians like Tali are appreciative of the distinction is irrelevant to the existence of the distinction.
[/quote]

No, I can pretty much see how they would view the destruction of one of their ships at the hands of Cerberus.

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...
Pure acid was never claimed to be what was injected. There was no medical exam after Toombs escaped in regards to any position: you're inventing your own evidence right after you claim you can only assume facts in evidence.[/quote]

It's common sense. If you are tortured for who knows how long, the first thing you do is get yourself checked out to see what kind of damage and if it were permenant. While revenge would be at the forefront of my mind, I would want to be able to make sure I will live long enough to see it through.

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...
He and his team were also Salarian infiltrators, supplied and armed, and benefiting from STG tactical excellence, intelligence, being in their prime, and able to hide across the majority of a wrecked planet only habitable on its margins.

Not an old salarian, a handful of mechs, and a distinct lack of heavy firepower between them, literally trying to slip through a number of lines of forces without being noticed. Mordin has never claimed to be a ninja.
[/quote]

You don't take a rocket launcher when you go on a stealth mission. Omega is one big space station with service ways and ducts leading all over the place. Its how Thane and Garrus got around for their little excursions on Omega before meeting Shepard.

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...
He would have had to lower the field for himself: Shepard's presence was irrelevant to being locked in a barrier-room with waves of husks and abominations, and the only exit of that room being blocked by a number of Scions and Abominations that Shepard cleared right before entering.

'Small' is irrelevant in the Mass Effect universe: a small ship is not a stealth ship. Legion's geth enemies can also manifest drones, while Legion is under the same hacking risks in reverse by all the lore.[/quote]

You seem to forget that Legion is a synthetic, he could have obtained the data he needed and simply uploaded himself off the Reaper through the FTL network in to a new platform.

His ship might have been picked up on ladar, so he could have sent out a false signal pretending to be a heretic. Or if an infiltraion was out of the question, a small Geth strike force could have dropped out of FTL at close range and destroyed the station and the virus.

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...
Bioware has mentioned in the past that the time frame of Mass Effect is a matter of monthes, not weeks
[/quote]

Weeks or months, doesnt really matter. What does is destroying the Collector base had no effect on the timing Reapers invasion fleet.

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...
Why doesn't the Thresher Maw I killed on foot in ME2 count? 
[/quote]

Its a different beast. The ME1Thresher is much harder to fight on foot, in no small part to the lack of heavy weapons, but it's ranged attack is also much more powerful.

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...
Yes, because clearly that tidbit was exactly what I was refering to.
[/quote]

I made the claim it was acid, you claimed otherwise. The ingame codex defines it as acid in the common meaning of the word, a substance that disolves things.

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...
...unless you both to read the codex about the nature of politics and events on Earth, hear the differences from the Colonial to the Space to the Slum backgrounds, or
[/quote]

The backgrounds make no mention of prejudice, only if you lived on a ship, a colony or survived on the streets.

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...
That's a particular cultural view, and one that I doubt is even universal in your own perception. We compell personal sacrifices in money for taxes, in abiding civil laws that hurt no one else directly, and in all sorts of areas. Compulsion and enforcement are components of nearly every culture on the Earth this day, and at varying levels.
[/quote]

When it was revealed that  ****s worked at NASA and were instrumental in America winning the Space Race (of course now we know Russia never had a chance of actually winning), they felt that the acheivment lost its shine because some of the worst people in history helped them do it. On that note, many of Russia's Cosmonauts were forced in to their manned flight programs.

I think that the Krogan scout who was captured thought he was doing the right thing when Weyrloc "convinced" him that dying for them was the only way he could help cure the genophage would say any type of coersion is bad.

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...
At this point: one. Teltin. Overlord lapsed for a reason other than being rogue.

That you're really arguing against Teltin's own evidence and without evidence of any deceit on their or TIM's part, despite your prior claims that we can only go off evidence present, is highly hypocritical.
[/quote]

If they were indeed rogue, then by that very nature they would be concealing all their data and handing out falsified reports, or atleast ammending the reports to appear more favourable. A lie of omission.

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...
All cultural views are forced on their followers by varying means of coercion and broadcast. Whether you mandate by laws and police that children be taken to schools and indoctrinated into the cultural belief system and then punish them when they ere, or you get a kid high on drugs to the point he doesn't want to quit and will do the same to others, coercion and indoctrination are the cornerstones of cultural maintanence.
[/quote]

I don't totally disagree with you on this one. However, Cerberus is not part of humanities cultural maintenance. All their victims know is strange men in armoured uniforms have stolen them away from their families and loved ones to be injected with all sorts of chemicals or turned in to a nearly unstoppable biotic killing machine for reasons never to be revealed to them.

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...
Now why would I have to do that? No claim was ever made that all chemistry is good injected in you.
[/quote]

To prove that injecting acid has definable medicinal benefits. Likely what Cerberus was testing, but by going by your response that not all chemistry is good, then they were doing it why? Purely for the lulz?

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...
The Collectors were after all human colonies. The idea that, after attacking and sacking an increasing number of Human colonies without provocation, that they would have stopped for no reason and ignorred the rest is, to put it in a word, crazy.[/quote]

If they attacked too many too quickly it would have drawn the kind of attention they didn't want.

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...
No, he couldn't necessarily have done that. Since he can only set up where the colony is, and not where Shepard will be at the (also non-controllable) time the Collectors strike there, if they strike there at all, and as TIM later demonstrates a (justified) fear that the Normandy 2 could be infiltrated and have intelligence leaks, any trap has to be big enough to take the Collectors an enough time to work through so that Commander Shepard can alive.

If the colony is too small, the Collectors can take all the people and get away before Shepard even arrives, or even finish while Shepard is there and escape before any Cerberus-prompted defense canons can open up on them. A small colony would also be unusual to receive an Alliance gift of defense canons at TIM's prompting, since there would be more logical, and larger, colonies to make ties with. As another matter, colonies nearer to mass relays tend to be larger for obvious reasons, while the mass relays themselves radically decrease the time for Shepard to arrive.

The primary determining factors are the time it would take Shepard to be there (a reason why Horizon is in the same solar system as a Mass Relay) and the ease of covertly manipulating fire-support (colonies below a certain size wouldn't warrant tower defenses without rousing suspicion).[/quote]

Fears of an intelligence leak by a crewmembers that were all hand picked by himself, either he doesnt trust them or his own judgement. The colonists were already suspicious of the Alliance showing up with defense towers.

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...
Not always. Mainly if they lose a war.
[/quote]

Even if they win, look at America and Gitmo.

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...
Not really, and especially not if they produce other successes. Democratic societies have historically shown they don't care what the government does so long as they win and are comfortable and the unpleasant things are farther from memory. It's only when they aren't winning (a stale-mated or losing war) or aren't comfortable (social anxieties) that they become eager to turn on their own politicians.

Even then, sins of past leaders are largely forgotten in lieu of canonization of their triumphs.
[/quote]

History is written by the victors? With current organisations such as Wikileaks; History may be written by the victors, but it is undermined by the truth.

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...
As you were making an argument that 2920 was a relevant number for all the cultures on the planet in opposition to a post of cultural idealism-cynicism in the presence of war, that extrapolation was entirely your own creation.
[/quote]

All I was pointing out was that there has been more war than peace in the last 3000 years.

[Bad King]

Mesina2 wrote...

I would just like to add that Horizon has over 600 000 living on it.

Two thirds of them were saved and a lot of other colonies were spared.

[008Zulu]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
The Alliance made and owned Cerberus for decades before Cerberus broke free.

And no, books/comics that are canon are canon: people who ignore them are no more exempt than people who don't read the codex entries or talk to certain characters in the game.

I don't ignore them, I have never read them.

Interesting terminology there "owned Cerberus" and "broke free". Almost implying they were slaves against their will.

As an analogy; The American government has the FBI, a unit of the FBI goes rogue. Therefore America is worse because they created the FBI?

[Bad King]

008Zulu wrote...

Just an updated tally here. The Alliance has maybe one mark against it for putting nukes in its probes, as opposed to Ceberus' laundry list. If it's a distinction of the lesser of two evils then the pro-Cerberus posters are still back the greater evil.

If you want, go ahead and post something that casts the Alliance in the same grim dark shadow that Cerberus is skulking around in. As before only events or facts from the two existing games are permitted due to not everyone reading the books/comics.

The Alliance recruited pirates (Lord Darius) to fight the Batarians.
They were almost certainly aware of all of Cerberus's unethical acts before the split.
They are hiding dangerous info from the Council (Keiji's Greybox).
They cover up all of Shepard's warnings about the reapers, refuse to acknowledge them as a threat, do almost nothing to deal with the collectors and even try and arrest Shepard.
They allowed Conatix to take biotic children to Gagarin Station and pretty much abuse them.
They use the corsairs to undertake dodgy missions.

On top of this the Alliance still has a lot of links with Cerberus.

The Alliance are dodgier than a lot of people think.

Modifié par Bad King, 30 avril 2011 - 03:35 .

[General User]

Arijharn wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Racism was always morally wrong and intellectually flawed, regardless of the legality. Majority presumption doesn't change that.

At the risk of quoting out of context here; I want to point something out. The argument that Racism was always morally wrong is the wrong approach to make imo, because morals evolve with society. Sure, we recognise it for the bs it is now, but society has changed quite a bit from the 1800's for example. 

I don’t understand, are you contending that racism or (to relate back to Cerberus) to kidnap and experiment on a Marine, has always been and will always be immoral, and that all that can change is the recognition thereof? Or that such attitudes or acts could be considered moral, under certain circumstances?
 
Basically, are you advocating moral relativism or moral absolutism?
 
In your philosophy, is there a difference between the morality of attitudes and the morality of actions? IOW, if the mindset of racism is always wrong, even though (being in the mind) it may never do any physical harm, should not the action of forced experimentation also be always wrong, as it does do physical harm?  Or is physical harm not important?


Not really related but, what the hey :  In the 1800's hundreds of thousands of Americans were fought and died to oppose racial slavery.  I don't think our generation can claim the same level of... commitment.