[quote]008Zulu wrote...
I made a comparison. Besides it doesn't alter that fact that testing on an unwilling human subject is morally and ethically wrong.[/quote]It depends on both the context and the nature of the test. One of the large factors of psychology is that people who know that they're being tested often perform differently, and so testing people without their knowledge can actually be a requirement.
It isn't the factor of unknown or even unwilling that dictates the ethical limitations for scientists, but the nature of the harm (if any).
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So you are comparing steroids to Thresher acid or any sort of chemical compound that can eat through steel (or whatever the Mako was made of)?[/quote]You'd understand the answer if you didn't insist on radically shifting the context of every response you respond to.
Being an acid does not in and of itself make something unreasonable for injection. What else was done to thresher maw acid so that it would not eat through Corporal Toombs like a Mako, whether alteration or dilution, is critical in evaluation of whether it had any medical relevance.
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So?[/quote]You're Zulunew, he's Zulu, because while you may have joined the board first you haven't been a part of this part of the community.
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You might have cited a reputable source, but you never gave credit to where or who the info originally came from. And I only included wikipedia as an option just in case you couldn't provide an actual real source.[/quote]...it's in the link.
Not, I suppose, that I should assume you've even looked at it, given that you've currently flopped about whether it was reputable or not, now conceding it as reputable after initially and repeatedly rejecting it with no provided reasoning.
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A perfect (or somewhat better knowledge) of nuclear physics, and Chernobyl's engineers might have been able to avert the disaster. If Edision had a perfect (or somewhat better) knowledge of electricity as he claimed, he would have known Tesla was right about alternating current being safer.[/quote]And yet they both disprove your repeated assertion that complete knowledge is a requirement for development of products. Complete knowledge isn't even the basis for building knowledge: Tesla built on the incomplete knowledge of those before, while Tesla himself wasn't a full master himself.
The Chernobyle disaster wasn't a lack of understanding of nuclear physics in any since, but rather a blatant and willful disregard of the safety procedures already created from existing knowledge.
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How many test subjects do you think they wen't through perfecting the technology? TIM wouldn't risk an untested medical procedure on someone as important as Shepard. It is astronomically improbable they got it right the first time, unless they did in fact trade the Collectors for the tech.[/quote]According to our actual source in the game: Shepard was the only test subject. Whether you deem it improblable or not, that's the lore, and nothing else has been raised to suggest or imply otherwise.
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So I wonder, will the majority of the pro-Cerbs still buy ME3 knowing that their beloved TIM is looking to stick a knife in their belly? All indicators appear to point them as one of the permenant enemies, no chance of joing back with them. If they don't, does that mean they are right?[/quote]I'm sorry, 'the majority of pro-Cerbs'? Are we allowing sub-categorization now? The majority of a minority is now a majority element?
While ExtremeOne's crazy is legendary, I have no problem buying ME3 because ME3 isn't about Cerberus first and foremost to me. I'm neither surprised or necessarily disappointed by Cerberus's actions: I myself can make three different plausible, reasonable basis for why Cerberus might want to kill Shepard right off of my head, and not even be wrong in their belief. Until we get the game, you're assertions are as proven as anyone else's, including whether they will be permanent enemies.
And yes, noted on abandoning the argument again for something entirely separate.
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So we agreed that Cerberus has commited man unforgivable crimes then?[/quote]It was never denied. Cerberus will be brought to justice. It can still be used and utilized until then, however.
I presume we've also dropped the fallicious appeal to the majority argument of morality as well?
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Well covering their tracks by destroying a ship is about as stupid a thing as Cerberus has done. The Quarian forensic team would have detected residue from any kind of explosive. My guess is their first guess would be to lay the blame at someone who hates aliens and has the resources to sneak in and blow up a ship, Cerberus.
You may need to correct me here, so feel free. This Gillian, she would have told the Quarians that Cerberus was after her. So if the ship she is on suddenly blows up, they will know who to go looking for.[/quote]Your ferensic skills are as awe-inspiring as your knowledge of chemistry. As is your knowledge of what you're arguing about, given that you could have saved yourself a number of completely erronious assumptions and positions had you just looked up a summary of the book online.
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It's common sense.[/quote]And you lack it, since common sense also involves not countering your own arguments within your own arguments. 'Common sense' also argues against what was injected being pure Thresher Maw acid, especially since 'pure' was never claimed. Claiming 'common sense' to justify something that was never claimed after your own argument about only going by what what is known and not assumed is only common in so much as it's ridiculous.
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You don't take a rocket launcher when you go on a stealth mission. Omega is one big space station with service ways and ducts leading all over the place. Its how Thane and Garrus got around for their little excursions on Omega before meeting Shepard.[/quote]And now you're claiming, without support in game, that he has an intimate understanding and ability to take himself and a number of mechs through Omega's ventilation system and service ways and ducts without being stopped.
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You seem to forget that Legion is a synthetic, he could have obtained the data he needed and simply uploaded himself off the Reaper through the FTL network in to a new platform.[/quote]If Legion was in a position to do that, he never would have been 'captured' in the first place.
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His ship might have been picked up on ladar, so he could have sent out a false signal pretending to be a heretic. [/quote]Do read the codex for how stealth actually works in the Mass Effect universe. It isn't by radar.
Legion has never given, claimed, suggested, or implied an ability to successfully pretend to be a Heretic despite a number of occasions in which such would have been useful.
[quote]Weeks or months, doesnt really matter. What does is destroying the Collector base had no effect on the timing Reapers invasion fleet.
[/quote]Uh, since that wasn't what was in dispute, and the lives of millions of colonists who would have died before the Reaper arrival had the Collectors not stopped, whereas those deaths are not guaranteed during the Reaper War...
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Its a different beast. The ME1Thresher is much harder to fight on foot, in no small part to the lack of heavy weapons, but it's ranged attack is also much more powerful.[/quote]They need an eye roll smile. You're confusing game mechanics for lore.
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The backgrounds make no mention of prejudice, only if you lived on a ship, a colony or survived on the streets.[/quote]Spacer culture (non-planets, militarized, transitory socieity), colonist culture (colonials tend towards communist cultures, face raider/piracy threats, colonial society), earth-born (underworld-culture, planet-renaissance, developmental society).
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When it was revealed that ****s worked at NASA and were instrumental in America winning the Space Race (of course now we know Russia never had a chance of actually winning), they felt that the acheivment lost its shine because some of the worst people in history helped them do it. On that note, many of Russia's Cosmonauts were forced in to their manned flight programs.[/quote]You may feel that. You may live in a culture-zone that feels that. Plenty of other people don't. I've lived in the region where VonBraun lived and worked, and there's certainly no similar feeling that it 'lost its shine'.
You are projecting your cultural views.
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I don't totally disagree with you on this one. However, Cerberus is not part of humanities cultural maintenance. All their victims know is strange men in armoured uniforms have stolen them away from their families and loved ones to be injected with all sorts of chemicals or turned in to a nearly unstoppable biotic killing machine for reasons never to be revealed to them.[/quote]Cerberus is a cultural product of Humanity, and is at the same time affecting the cultural maintenance by their actions and policies. This is true in regards to the few who are abducted for experiments, and this is the true for the large trends that people never notice, such as the mass-introduction of biotics, the militarization (and xeno-acceptance) of the Catholic Churth.
Cerberus isn't even directing just human culture: Cerberus has undermined Asari biotic supremacism and the Turians' own war-hawk political wings.
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To prove that injecting acid has definable medicinal benefits. Likely what Cerberus was testing, but by going by your response that not all chemistry is good, then they were doing it why? Purely for the lulz?[/quote]Presumably, and they would have data you don't to make the judgement, because they deemed that Thresher Maw acid in some form could be chemistry with results they wanted.
Whether an acid or chemical substance has merit is dependent on the substance, not it's place as acid or chemical.
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If they attacked too many too quickly it would have drawn the kind of attention they didn't want.[/quote]Besides being a truism and already proven (Cerberus noticing), that in no way suggests that they're evaluation of 'too many' is anywhere close to yours.
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Fears of an intelligence leak by a crewmembers that were all hand picked by himself, either he doesnt trust them or his own judgement. The colonists were already suspicious of the Alliance showing up with defense towers. [/quote]Given the Shadow Broker dossiers, it's more than apparent that there are intelligence leaks by other means to be considered, deliberate or not by anyone he picked.
The colonists' suspicion is the group that matters. The Collectors having a certain type of suspicion does.
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Even if they win, look at America and Gitmo.
[/quote]Iraq isn't won yet, nor was it won then. As I also said: if they are not succeding.
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History is written by the victors? With current organisations such as Wikileaks; History may be written by the victors, but it is undermined by the truth.[/quote]Wikileaks hasn't come close to rewriting any narrative or history.
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All I was pointing out was that there has been more war than peace in the last 3000 years.
[/quote]Which was entirely irrelevant, especially in a collectivist context, to what I actually said. There has been more war than peace if you treat the globe as a single unit: otherwise, societies and regions have had the other experience, of more peace than war. If you have a group of a hundred, and any given year two are at war for the entirety of the hundred years, that in no way means there's been more war than peace for the groups involved.
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