1342 réponses à ce sujet

[General User]

Moiaussi wrote...
Ok, I'll bite... how does a privateer, fighting for profit, fight cheaper than solders fighting for normal pay? The ship will cost the same regardless. 

As for 'prizes' in commerce raiding, if it is a state owned vessel those prizes subsidize the costs anyway. If it is commercially viable as piracy, it would be occurring anyway without any need for letters of marque.

Privateers only get paid if they win. 

Also the State does not pay for the construction or maintenance of privateer ships. They are privately owned, hence the name. 


In classic privateering, the vessels and goods captured from the enemy are offered to the State sponsoring the privateer first. If the State does not wish to purchase those vessels or goods, the Privateer has the right to dispose of them as she sees fit.

and subsidized costs are better than unsubsidized costs.

Moiaussi wrote...
And your point is what, exactly? It is and operates as an independant world. It isn't Alliance or Council. Horizon is the same. The Alliance are attempting to get them to sign up, but they are independant.

Independence is a good thing. They name ships and cities after it. 

It only becomes a bad thing when independent bodies start fighing others.  Which Horizon and Noveria show no indication of doing.

Moiaussi wrote...
The full quote I believe is 'The worst system, except for all the rest."

Exactly. Democracy is only a means to an end, namely to secure the lives and freedoms of the Citizens. It is not a virtue in and of itself, merely the best idea anyone has yet had. So touting the Alliance for being democratic or condemning Cerberus of being autocratic is not a valid point.

Moiaussi wrote...
So abolish all governments and shoot all the people to eliminate all threats? Any power or source thereof is de facto a threat. That doesn't mean the threat is realized as such. This thread relates to how evil Cerberus is (and because that means comparasons, how evil everything else in ME is). How powerful or how much of a threat any given empire or entity is would be a completely separate thread.

So you figure a malevolent dicatorship seeking absolute control is to be praised while a reprentative democracy which, although imperfect, is honestly doing its best, is a threat to be reigned in? Are you delusional?

LOL, I’ve been called that and worse. 

But Cerberus isn't a dictatorship malevolent or otherwise, or a government of any sort really.  And of course I prefer the Alliance to Cerberus as it is.  It's just that I don't see those as the only two options.

[Moiaussi]

Arijharn wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...
So you figure a malevolent dicatorship seeking absolute control is to be praised while a reprentative democracy which, although imperfect, is honestly doing its best, is a threat to be reigned in? Are you delusional?

I don't think TIM wants control, just options really. I think if TIM is truly terrified by a singular prospect, it would be allowing humanity to become a vassal state like the Volus to the Turian's and then you realise that for better or worse, Cerberus has been designed completely against this idea (short of the miscellaneous Reaper style experiments). Of course, this is speculation, but it is as much speculation as anything else you, I and others have floated on this board.

'Malevolent dictatorship' -- funny how those words make me think of the Council much more than anything Cerberus has done.

TIM says outright Cerberus is Humanity and that he is Cerberus. He dismisses the Alliance and democracy. There is nothing even hinting at any risk of Humanity becomming a vassel state, and that is a state the Volus choose. Noone forced that status on them.

It is interesting how quick the Council gets condemned for not helping or for not covering patrolling costs gratis. Refusing to accept entitelment is treated as malevolence.'

Akuze, Teltin, Overlord, Ascension (not just the project itself, but also the methods TIM admits to in the prologue)....  those are evidence of Cerberus malevolence, or at best incompetence.

And what has the Council done?

[008Zulu]

Someone With Mass wrote...

008Zulu wrote...
Hysterical, wish I could have said something like that ingame to TIM.

Eh, that is an in-game option. Just go Renegade on his ass.

lolwut666 wrote...

@008Zulu

You have to destroy the base and then use the lower right option when you meet with the Illusive Man for debriefing.

Explains why I never found it then. Was hoping it was a Paragon option, sounds like a Paragon option.

[Moiaussi]

General User wrote...

Privateers only get paid if they win. 

Also the State does not pay for the construction or maintenance of privateer ships. They are privately owned, hence the name. 

In classic privateering, the vessels and goods captured from the enemy are offered to the State sponsoring the privateer first. If the State does not wish to purchase those vessels or goods, the Privateer has the right to dispose of them as she sees fit.

and subsidized costs are better than unsubsidized costs.

Privateers get paid whatever the contract says they get paid. You seem to think you can dictate the contract to them. My point about subsidization was that the goods are captured no matter who is capturing. The subsidy is there either way, so it isn't a benefit to privateers.

Independence is a good thing. They name ships and cities after it. 

It only becomes a bad thing when independent bodies start fighing others.  Which Horizon and Noveria show no indication of doing.

Independant states also don't pay taxes to you and aren't part of your territory no matter how many times you say otherwise. I really doubt TIM is some sort of libertarian or anarchist trying to save us all from central government.

He wants him to be unrestricted and everyone else under his rule. That is very clear from multiple sources. So please, cut it out with the false idealism.

Exactly. Democracy is only a means to an end, namely to secure the lives and freedoms of the Citizens. It is not a virtue in and of itself, merely the best idea anyone has yet had. So touting the Alliance for being democratic or condemning Cerberus of being autocratic is not a valid point.

The best available system for achieving any given thing IS a virtue in and of itself.

LOL, I’ve been called that and worse. 

But Cerberus isn't a dictatorship malevolent or otherwise, or a government of any sort really.  And of course I prefer the Alliance to Cerberus as it is.  It's just that I don't see those as the only two options.

Yup, you are delusional. Cerberus does want to govern. TIM makes that clear, as well as that he wants to govern in a completely unrestricted way, without concern for how the people feel about his leadership nor any concepts of morality.

[Aumata]

What makes Cerberus evil again? The fact that they aren't tied to a state? That seems to be the only reason.

[lolwut666]

Aumata wrote...

What makes Cerberus evil again? The fact that they aren't tied to a state? That seems to be the only reason.

More like the fact that they had one of their operatives, Paul Grayson, bombard colonies with element zero.

They also turned him into some kind of reaper/human hybrid abomination that caused all sorts of problems.

Then they tried to enslave rachni, creepers and husks to make some kind of monstrous army.

Then they captured kids and sent them to a biotic death camp.

There's also that one time when they killed Admiral Kahoku.

And that time when they used a human as a battery of sorts for a geth controlling device.

And that other time when they used a colony as bait for the Collectors.

[Arijharn]

Moiaussi wrote...
TIM says outright Cerberus is Humanity and that he is Cerberus. He dismisses the Alliance and democracy. There is nothing even hinting at any risk of Humanity becomming a vassel state, and that is a state the Volus choose. Noone forced that status on them.

o.0 He doesn't dismiss 'democracy' and he isn't actively working to sabotage it either (unless you're going to say Terra Nova, but that's always been a minor party iirc, which in itself should prove my point.) Believe it or not, but you can be critical of the government and not seek to overthrow it. If he has backers that are private citizens, I would think he has even more cause to not want to 'rock the boat' so to speak, so I think you're just using some alarmist hyperbole more than anything else.

And read what I said again... I said he fears that eventuality, but fear is an emotional response that doesn't necessarily follow from rationale. Cerberus is probably in the position it is now as an evolution from other people's fear towards slowly erroding human ideals, ambition and a sense of their own sovereignty (not saying that's definitely the case here though, just my musings on the matter).  Volus may have chose their fate, but they also can't 'unchose' it I should imagine (and they're probably considering it considering that CDN article about Volus being unhappy for the Turian response when an Asteriod crashed into a Volus colony world)

Mousy wrote...
And what has the Council done?

You can't be serious? You can't be that dense, I made a whole thread about that a while ago that you replied too. Oh that's right, you were a council apologist then too. You are the most inconsistent person on this board imo, you praise that the Council can do no wrong but slam into Cerberus for everything, while conveniently ignoring the fact that on the galactic scale, Cerberus isn't even chump change in comparison to the 'rules' the Council enforces. Newsflash mousy; Genocide is still genocide (oh wait; it modifies chance to conceive and carry to term, and doesn't require a gun levelled to someone's head -- as if that somehow 'makes up for it') even if it's been perpetrated by the one's 'elected' into office.

Wow, reading that back just makes me sound like a bit of a douche, but I've left it as is because you're just being hypocritical imho.

[General User]

Moiaussi wrote...
Privateers get paid whatever the contract says they get paid. You seem to think you can dictate the contract to them.

If “I’m” the Admiralty Board, then yes “I” can dictate the terms under which privateers operate, within the guidelines set down by Parliament of course.  The legislature is the ultimate authority in these cases.

Moiaussi wrote...
My point about subsidization was that the goods are captured no matter who is capturing. The subsidy is there either way, so it isn't a benefit to privateers.

A big benefit of privateering is that it dramatically increases a nations’ commerce raiding capacity. So, no, those prizes would not have been taken otherwise. And since privateers often operate outside declared wars (like the Corsairs), any nation that would commandeer shipping and impress spacers outside of war will quickly find itself without shipping to commandeer as ship owners change their ships registration.  

Moiaussi wrote...
Independant states also don't pay taxes to you and aren't part of your territory no matter how many times you say otherwise.

Did I say otherwise?

Independent or subjugated, States don’t pay taxes at all, they collect them. I think you mean that independent states don’t provide me with any benefits.  Why would they?  I'm not one of their citizens.

Besides that isn’t even strictly true. The independent state that I am a citizen of provides me with benefits. I have no more call on other nations and their finances than they have on me and mine.

Moiaussi wrote...
I really doubt TIM is some sort of libertarian or anarchist trying to save us all from central government.

He wants him to be unrestricted and everyone else under his rule. That is very clear from multiple sources. So please, cut it out with the false idealism.

I prefer to think of it as a challenge.  A challenge to Cerberus really, to live up to their own ideals to become champions of humanity. Not just the overall power and status of the species, but champions of human liberty, of human justice, or human rights. Not champions of the human race, but champions of humanity!

Moiaussi wrote...
The best available system for achieving any given thing IS a virtue in and of itself.

Interesting. BTW, what happened to you guys after Jack broke out of your facility? 

Modifié par General User, 02 mai 2011 - 03:04 .

[Pwener2313]

Another one of these..... better call Cerberus Command and have the OP taken out. I really love my job.

Modifié par Pwener2313, 02 mai 2011 - 03:21 .

[Moiaussi]

Arijharn wrote...
o.0 He doesn't dismiss 'democracy' and he isn't actively working to sabotage it either (unless you're going to say Terra Nova, but that's always been a minor party iirc, which in itself should prove my point.) Believe it or not, but you can be critical of the government and not seek to overthrow it. If he has backers that are private citizens, I would think he has even more cause to not want to 'rock the boat' so to speak, so I think you're just using some alarmist hyperbole more than anything else.

And read what I said again... I said he fears that eventuality, but fear is an emotional response that doesn't necessarily follow from rationale. Cerberus is probably in the position it is now as an evolution from other people's fear towards slowly erroding human ideals, ambition and a sense of their own sovereignty (not saying that's definitely the case here though, just my musings on the matter).  Volus may have chose their fate, but they also can't 'unchose' it I should imagine (and they're probably considering it considering that CDN article about Volus being unhappy for the Turian response when an Asteriod crashed into a Volus colony world)

Besides the fact that assassinating elected politicians is 'actively working to sabotage democracy', in the prologue of Ascension he escews the Alliance for being 'ineffectual' because it is hampered by 'laws, convention, and the crushing weight of public opinion.'

Why wouldn't the volus be able to 'unchoose' their 'fate?' There are no laws barring them from building and manning their own fleets. They have a contract with the Turians, but as the master traders it seems very unlikely that the Volus wouldn't have put an escape clause into the contract.

You can't be serious? You can't be that dense, I made a whole thread about that a while ago that you replied too. Oh that's right, you were a council apologist then too. You are the most inconsistent person on this board imo, you praise that the Council can do no wrong but slam into Cerberus for everything, while conveniently ignoring the fact that on the galactic scale, Cerberus isn't even chump change in comparison to the 'rules' the Council enforces. Newsflash mousy; Genocide is still genocide (oh wait; it modifies chance to conceive and carry to term, and doesn't require a gun levelled to someone's head -- as if that somehow 'makes up for it') even if it's been perpetrated by the one's 'elected' into office.

Wow, reading that back just makes me sound like a bit of a douche, but I've left it as is because you're just being hypocritical imho.

You completely ignore the context and seem to think that mutually agreed to contracts that either side can walk away from at any time (just as the Batarians did) equates to 'oppression.'

In other words, to you 'oppression' means not being treated to everything you feel you are entitled to, regardless of cost to the other party.

As for genocide, you also completely ignore the fact that the other side was engaging in and quite capable of genocide in the Rachni war. The Council was losing the war when the Krogan were brought in.

The genophage wasn't genocide in that it stabilized the population with no intent to eliminate it.

If I didn't know you were serious I'd be wondering if you were trying to make the case against democracy just by demonstrating how unreasonable and unrealistic voters can be.

Are you going to argue in favour of sparing the Reapers too? Should we have offered Sovereign quarter in ME1? Do you consider yourself horribly evil for not having done so?

[lolwut666]

I don't get why some people support Cerberus.

That's like supporting fascism.

You're willing to sacrifice basic human rights for the sake of "growth", as you understand it.

And alienating yourself from all of those you don't judge your own.

I won't try to change your mind, but I just can't understand this rationale.

[Moiaussi]

General User wrote...

Frankly so much of your post is so bizarre you are likely just trolling, but its amusing so I'll play along.

If “I’m” the Admiralty Board, then yes “I” can dictate the terms under which privateers operate, within the guidelines set down by Parliament of course.  The legislature is the ultimate authority in these cases.

You are going to hire privateers at gunpoint then? Force them to sign contracts? Good luck with that. Legislating job offerings at insufficient pay doesn't convince people to sign up, and if you legislate that they must sign up, congratulations, you haven't hired privateers, you have re-instated the draft.

A big benefit of privateering is that it dramatically increases a nations’ commerce raiding capacity. So, no, those prizes would not have been taken otherwise. And since privateers often operate outside declared wars (like the Corsairs), any nation that would commandeer shipping and impress spacers outside of war will quickly find itself without shipping to commandeer as ship owners change their ships registration. 

No, it doesn't. If the nation fielded exactly the same number of ships itself, then it would have exactly the same capacity. Of course no prizes would have to be taken if the nation doesn't engage in said activity itself. You are comparing apples and oranges. 

Did I say otherwise?

Independent or subjugated, States don’t pay taxes at all, they collect them. I think you mean that independent states don’t provide me with any benefits.  Why would they?  I'm not one of their citizens.

Besides that isn’t even strictly true. The independent state that I am a citizen of provides me with benefits. I have no more call on other nations and their finances than they have on me and mine.

...

So the US doesn't get any taxes from Texas? If Texas suddenly ceased to be a part of the US, the US tax base would be exactly the same? If for whatever reason, strategic, economic, whatever, it was beneficial for that state to be part of the union, guess what? That benefit wouldn't be there. It would be independant and not providing (or recieving) benefits.

It is interesting to note that your choices seem to be 'independant' or 'subjegated.' You figure your home town would rather be a city state than part of what nation it is in?

I prefer to think of it as a challenge.  A challenge to Cerberus really, to live up to their own ideals to become champions of humanity. Not just the overall power and status of the species, but champions of human liberty, of human justice, or human rights. Not champions of the human race, but champions of humanity!

Oh goody, you are backing a faction based on ideals they don't actually follow, but that you hope they will adopt out of nowhere.

Interesting. BTW, what happened to you guys after Jack broke out of your facility? 

Reality check? Last I checked I don't own any space penetentiaries.

Modifié par Moiaussi, 02 mai 2011 - 05:38 .

[ExtremeOne]

lolwut666 wrote...

I don't get why some people support Cerberus.

That's like supporting fascism.

You're willing to sacrifice basic human rights for the sake of "growth", as you understand it.

And alienating yourself from all of those you don't judge your own.

I won't try to change your mind, but I just can't understand this rationale.

   



Cerberus is about action and doing something about the reapers . I would rather work with TIM than work with a bastard like hackett who wants Shepard only for a show trail 

[lolwut666]

ExtremeOne wrote...

lolwut666 wrote...

I don't get why some people support Cerberus.

That's like supporting fascism.

You're willing to sacrifice basic human rights for the sake of "growth", as you understand it.

And alienating yourself from all of those you don't judge your own.

I won't try to change your mind, but I just can't understand this rationale.

   



Cerberus is about action and doing something about the reapers . I would rather work with TIM than work with a bastard like hackett who wants Shepard only for a show trail 

cool story bro

[ExtremeOne]

lolwut666 wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

lolwut666 wrote...

I don't get why some people support Cerberus.

That's like supporting fascism.

You're willing to sacrifice basic human rights for the sake of "growth", as you understand it.

And alienating yourself from all of those you don't judge your own.

I won't try to change your mind, but I just can't understand this rationale.

   



Cerberus is about action and doing something about the reapers . I would rather work with TIM than work with a bastard like hackett who wants Shepard only for a show trail 

cool story bro

  


The alliance does nothing in 2 and now they want Shepard on trail for what . Oh thats right because they are butt hurt that it  was Cerberus that saved humanity in 2 .  The alliance will die in 3 if I get my chance . 

[lolwut666]

Saphra Deden wrote...

lolwut666 wrote...

cool story bro

Alien-loving stooge.

Why? Just because I don't want to alienate humanity from the rest of the galactic community?

[Someone With Mass]

ExtremeOne wrote...
The alliance does nothing in 2 and now they want Shepard on trail for what . Oh thats right because they are butt hurt that it  was Cerberus that saved humanity in 2 .  The alliance will die in 3 if I get my chance . 

That's funny. Last time I checked, Shepard decided the fate of the Collector base, not Cerberus.

I'd rather put my faith in humanity's actual military instead of some butthurt black ops group that couldn't take it.

Oh, and I will enjoy destroying The Incompitent Man and his band of circus freaks. They have done nothing right for the galaxy.

[lolwut666]

Saphra Deden wrote...

lolwut666 wrote...

Why? Just because I don't want to alienate humanity from the rest of the galactic community?

What does Cerberus have to do with alienating humanity from anybody? It's a small organization, a non-public one. Not even humanity's representative.

Yet.

Give them enough power and you'll see where they go.

Modifié par lolwut666, 02 mai 2011 - 07:11 .

[lolwut666]

Saphra Deden wrote...

lolwut666 wrote...

Give them enough power and see where they go.

So you are just making things up to backup your argument. Convenient. We shouldn't befriend aliens because they are all devil worshippers who will sacrifice our children to Satan.

Just wait, you'll see.

what is this i don't even

[didymos1120]

Saphra Deden wrote...

What does Cerberus have to do with alienating humanity from anybody? It's a small organization, a non-public one. Not even humanity's representative.

And that matters why?  People in power do know about them and their agenda, and their behavior, whether you like it or not, does reflect on humanity as a whole.  In fact, in Retribution, the turian ambassador tells Anderson that "Cerberus is the main reason we opposed humanity's addition to the Council."  It may not be fair, but not much is.

Modifié par didymos1120, 02 mai 2011 - 07:15 .