1342 réponses à ce sujet

[Moiaussi]

wiggles89 wrote...

But the very evidence we have of the origin of the Council and the way members are admitted to the Council points to no legitimate source of power. Earlier in the thread I argued that a sufficient condition for legitimate governance is legitimate election. Looking at the lore of the series, has there ever been a legitimate election of the Council? Or do you disagree that that's the sufficient condition for legitimate governance? It's entirely possible that such an election took place (though it is troublesome that it has never been mentioned in the lore), but appeal to possibility is a terrible basis for any argument excluding those that deal with logical truths.

There is nothing more than a codex entry regarding the origins and likewise only a couple lines of dialogue regarding new members.

You make it sound like the US and Canada are both illegitimate because they didn't start out with all the states and provinces they have today. In both cases there are proceedures for bringing new territory into the union. If you look up the history of either though, you will see a list of when any given territory joined the respective countries. To get the detail of the actual processes involved you have to look further.

The Turians joined after the Krogan Uprising, but that doesn't mean there wasn't considerable negotiation from the various governments involved. The Turians were the new kids on the block but still ended up being ceded the largest DN complement under treaty rights, so it is hard to accuse the Council of being oppressive to new members. The Alliance hasn't gotten any such concession.. yet, but that doesn't mean negotiations aren't underway or that there aren't other concessions we simply don't know about.

The Alliance was also already being considered, and the Council's opinion could well have been the last political barrier. The Salarians having a monarchy could easily predict political opinion, and the Alliance actions at the Citadel proved merit to the Turian meritocracy. The Asari seem to like humans and may well have already been voting on favour of membership prior to the Citadel war.

We know enough from the codex to conclude there is a process. Not knowing the process doesn't make it not exist.

[TobyHasEyes]

wiggles89 wrote...

Sure you can. There are no signs of rebellion in the game. Complaints about specific rulings yes, but no talk of actual rebellion. There is nothing in the news reports or in any other aspect of the game to bring into question their legitimacy. Everyone deals with them as if they are legitimate. That is evidence.

As a result it does indeed fall upon the skeptic to refute said evidence.

But the very evidence we have of the origin of the Council and the way members are admitted to the Council points to no legitimate source of power. Earlier in the thread I argued that a sufficient condition for legitimate governance is legitimate election. Looking at the lore of the series, has there ever been a legitimate election of the Council? Or do you disagree that that's the sufficient condition for legitimate governance? It's entirely possible that such an election took place (though it is troublesome that it has never been mentioned in the lore), but appeal to possibility is a terrible basis for any argument excluding those that deal with logical truths.

Sorry to say it, but the burden of proof does indeed fall on your half of the court.

 Ahh burden of proof; when an argument has run out of juice, now sitting around trying to prove who is making the more substantive/positive claim 

[Iakus]

008Zulu wrote...

So which is he: The evil murdering terrorist these activites paint him as OR extremely incompetent?

Not sure this was brought up here, but not gonna search through 30 pages to find out:

I just completed a SM run, and while my SHep was arguing with TIM about saving/blowing up the base, Shepard says

"You're completely ruthless.  The next thing I know you'll be wanting to grow your own Reaper"

TIM's response:

"My goal is to save humanity from the Reapers.  At any cost.  I've never hidden that from you.  Imagine how many lives could be saved if we keep this base intact and use it's knowledge to thwart the Reapers.  Imagine the lives that will be lost if we don't"

Note he never denies wanting to build a Reaper.  In fact, in response he says he plans to save humanity at any cost. 

CerberReaper, anyone?

[ExtremeOne]

iakus wrote...

008Zulu wrote...

So which is he: The evil murdering terrorist these activites paint him as OR extremely incompetent?

Not sure this was brought up here, but not gonna search through 30 pages to find out:

I just completed a SM run, and while my SHep was arguing with TIM about saving/blowing up the base, Shepard says

"You're completely ruthless.  The next thing I know you'll be wanting to grow your own Reaper"

TIM's response:

"My goal is to save humanity from the Reapers.  At any cost.  I've never hidden that from you.  Imagine how many lives could be saved if we keep this base intact and use it's knowledge to thwart the Reapers.  Imagine the lives that will be lost if we don't"

Note he never denies wanting to build a Reaper.  In fact, in response he says he plans to save humanity at any cost. 

CerberReaper, anyone?

   


People forget that the nuclear bomb info and rockets as well jet engies  all come from what info and scienist that we captureed when we invading and took over Germany during WW 2 .  so saying that enemy technology is not useful is stupid .  

[Reapinger]

ExtremeOne wrote...

iakus wrote...

008Zulu wrote...

So which is he: The evil murdering terrorist these activites paint him as OR extremely incompetent?

Not sure this was brought up here, but not gonna search through 30 pages to find out:

I just completed a SM run, and while my SHep was arguing with TIM about saving/blowing up the base, Shepard says

"You're completely ruthless.  The next thing I know you'll be wanting to grow your own Reaper"

TIM's response:

"My goal is to save humanity from the Reapers.  At any cost.  I've never hidden that from you.  Imagine how many lives could be saved if we keep this base intact and use it's knowledge to thwart the Reapers.  Imagine the lives that will be lost if we don't"

Note he never denies wanting to build a Reaper.  In fact, in response he says he plans to save humanity at any cost. 

CerberReaper, anyone?

   


People forget that the nuclear bomb info and rockets as well jet engies  all come from what info and scienist that we captureed when we invading and took over Germany during WW 2 .  so saying that enemy technology is not useful is stupid .  

Uhhhhh we didn't steal "enemy" techinology. We harbored refugee scientists and asked them to start the Manhattan Project. Poor analogy extreme one. Not like we took the tech and didn't know what to do with it like the collector base.

[didymos1120]

ExtremeOne wrote...

People forget that the nuclear bomb info and rockets as well jet engies  all come from what info and scienist that we captureed when we invading and took over Germany during WW 2 . 

Uh, no.  The US had been running the Manhattan project for years prior to victory in the European Theater.  The Germans really had no atomic weapons program to speak of. 

[Moiaussi]

Actually Einstein and most of the other nuclear pioneers defected to the US pre-war. The US also had its own rocket scientists, and was also developing jet engines.

More importantly though, the death camps didn't relate to that research. It is not merely a question of using enemy technology, but one of how it was developed and what the tech actually is.

Also there is considerable controversy over using nuclear weapons because of their nature. Hence them never being used since the first two, which were very low yield compared to modern such weapons.

[Moiaussi]

didymos1120 wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

People forget that the nuclear bomb info and rockets as well jet engies  all come from what info and scienist that we captureed when we invading and took over Germany during WW 2 . 

Uh, no.  The US had been running the Manhattan project for years prior to victory in the European Theater.  The Germans really had no atomic weapons program to speak of. 

The Germans had a nuclear weapons program. It was just stalled out because the heavy water plants kept getting bombed out. If the Germans had won the battle of britain and kept strategic bombers away a little longer, they would have actually had nuclear weapons first, and higher yield ones. They also would have likely developed the V2's into ICBM's and been able to deliver nukes to North America, which would really have changed the situation. Of course it didn't play out that way, but it wasn't that far from possiible.

[didymos1120]

Moiaussi wrote...

The Germans had a nuclear weapons program. It was just stalled out because the heavy water plants kept getting bombed out.

Yeah, I know they had one. It just didn't go much of anywhere. Hence the "to speak of". And it wasn't the heavy water thing that held it back.  That was actually not that big of a factor.  The N@zi government simply didn't invest that much in it, nor was it particularly well-organized or concerted, unlike the US program.  Also, they'd driven off too much talent and gutted German physics in general. In any case, they were never that close to having even a prototype weapon.

[Dark_Caduceus]

didymos1120 wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

The Germans had a nuclear weapons program. It was just stalled out because the heavy water plants kept getting bombed out.

Yeah, I know they had one. It just didn't go much of anywhere. Hence the "to speak of". And it wasn't the heavy water thing that held it back.  That was actually not that big of a factor.  The N@zi government simply didn't invest that much in it, nor was it particularly well-organized or concerted, unlike the US program.  Also, they'd driven off too much talent and gutted German physics in general. In any case, they were never that close to having even a prototype weapon.

No. That's wrong.

[Someone With Mass]

ExtremeOne wrote...
People forget that the nuclear bomb info and rockets as well jet engies  all come from what info and scienist that we captureed when we invading and took over Germany during WW 2 .  so saying that enemy technology is not useful is stupid .  

I like how you're assuming that giving the equivalent of a nuclear bomb to terrorists can somehow benefit mankind as a whole.

[008Zulu]

Moiaussi wrote...
Since the distress call was a fake, it is not a given that there even was a Turian cruiser. It is a strange place for a Turian cruiser to be.

Its tough to see, but when the Normandy first arrives and subsequent departure you can see the wreckage of a ship off the bow of the Collector ship. Its easy to spot when the Normandy jumps away because you can see it move when the mass effect field activates.

TIM likely lured the Turians out there by feeding them false reports. Perhaps he told the Collectors that Garrus was on the Turian ship.

[008Zulu]

iakus wrote...

008Zulu wrote...

So which is he: The evil murdering terrorist these activites paint him as OR extremely incompetent?

Not sure this was brought up here, but not gonna search through 30 pages to find out:

I just completed a SM run, and while my SHep was arguing with TIM about saving/blowing up the base, Shepard says

"You're completely ruthless.  The next thing I know you'll be wanting to grow your own Reaper"

TIM's response:

"My goal is to save humanity from the Reapers.  At any cost.  I've never hidden that from you.  Imagine how many lives could be saved if we keep this base intact and use it's knowledge to thwart the Reapers.  Imagine the lives that will be lost if we don't"

Note he never denies wanting to build a Reaper.  In fact, in response he says he plans to save humanity at any cost. 

CerberReaper, anyone?

Considering it take millions of humans to make one Reaper (the schematics in the Reaper base were for a human Reaper) and considering the size of the Reaper fleet (Sov says they are legion, if in the literal truth per the Roman legions, that is 1,000) then you have to wonder how many humans would be left if TIM was able to stop the Reapers?

[Moiaussi]

008Zulu wrote...

Considering it take millions of humans to make one Reaper (the schematics in the Reaper base were for a human Reaper) and considering the size of the Reaper fleet (Sov says they are legion, if in the literal truth per the Roman legions, that is 1,000) then you have to wonder how many humans would be left if TIM was able to stop the Reapers?

Unless his 'master plan' is to make his own reaper, then figures he can use it ala Overlord to control all the rest.

[lolwut666]

wiggles89 wrote...

lolwut666 wrote...
What exactly has the Council done that overshadows the atrocities commited by Cerberus?

The Council has committed genocide, allowed genocide to be committed, and bases its legitimacy on a racist dictatorship. And that's just three.

The extinction of the rachni is tragic, but they were beyond saving. They refused peace treaties and would have committed the genocide of every other species if they were not stopped.

As for "allowed genocide", do you mean the krogan? Were it not for the genophage, they would have become an even bigger threat than the rachni.

As for the racist dictatorship, I'm not sure what you are refering to. There's some racial tension, but it's nothing as aggravating as what you are suggesting.

Modifié par lolwut666, 03 mai 2011 - 01:41 .

[UnAffectedFiddle]

Um, not sure we can claim two earth nations using each others tech is like using the Collectors base. Indoctrination and you know, melting people down to create weapons/husks would probably be frowned upon and in no way can be compared to pure mechanical technology.

That being said Cerberus may be a shadow organization used by the military but all knowledge is denied to avoid linking it to humanity. It wouldn't be the first time the government did it, both in the real world and in ME.

[008Zulu]

Moiaussi wrote...
Unless his 'master plan' is to make his own reaper, then figures he can use it ala Overlord to control all the rest.

Providing that they are in constant contact. Sov did say they were each a nation, independant. With Overlord shut down tho, unless you were a Renegade, even then the hacked units fired at pretty much anything that moved. So maybe slightly less worse than "Oh God, oh God we're all gonna die."?

[Iakus]

008Zulu wrote...

Considering it take millions of humans to make one Reaper (the schematics in the Reaper base were for a human Reaper) and considering the size of the Reaper fleet (Sov says they are legion, if in the literal truth per the Roman legions, that is 1,000) then you have to wonder how many humans would be left if TIM was able to stop the Reapers?

I don't think anyone has ever accused Cerberus of an overabundance of planning when it comes to their schemes to make use of alien technology 

Or maybe, TIM plans on ushering in the posthuman era, and sees Reapers as a singularity event.

[didymos1120]

Dark_Caduceus wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

The Germans had a nuclear weapons program. It was just stalled out because the heavy water plants kept getting bombed out.

Yeah, I know they had one. It just didn't go much of anywhere. Hence the "to speak of". And it wasn't the heavy water thing that held it back.  That was actually not that big of a factor.  The N@zi government simply didn't invest that much in it, nor was it particularly well-organized or concerted, unlike the US program.  Also, they'd driven off too much talent and gutted German physics in general. In any case, they were never that close to having even a prototype weapon.

No. That's wrong.

That's nice.  Care to provide a citation?

[GuardianAngel470]

TobyHasEyes wrote...

wiggles89 wrote...

Sure you can. There are no signs of rebellion in the game. Complaints about specific rulings yes, but no talk of actual rebellion. There is nothing in the news reports or in any other aspect of the game to bring into question their legitimacy. Everyone deals with them as if they are legitimate. That is evidence.

As a result it does indeed fall upon the skeptic to refute said evidence.

But the very evidence we have of the origin of the Council and the way members are admitted to the Council points to no legitimate source of power. Earlier in the thread I argued that a sufficient condition for legitimate governance is legitimate election. Looking at the lore of the series, has there ever been a legitimate election of the Council? Or do you disagree that that's the sufficient condition for legitimate governance? It's entirely possible that such an election took place (though it is troublesome that it has never been mentioned in the lore), but appeal to possibility is a terrible basis for any argument excluding those that deal with logical truths.

Sorry to say it, but the burden of proof does indeed fall on your half of the court.

 Ahh burden of proof; when an argument has run out of juice, now sitting around trying to prove who is making the more substantive/positive claim 

Burden of proof is a falacy in my opinion. Every side of an argument should be able to substantiate their opinion when challenged. Burden of proof just gives one side or the other the ability to ignore a point entirely.

Though I agree with the sentiment that without evidence you can't say one way or the other. That's why I think atheists (of which I am one) who state beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is no God are just fooling themselves.

No evidence means no evidence, you can't prove anything with no evidence, no matter what side you are on.

[didymos1120]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Burden of proof is a fal[l]acy in my opinion. Every side of an argument should be able to substantiate their opinion when challenged. Burden of proof just gives one side or the other the ability to ignore a point entirely.

That's not what burden of proof is about.  The idea is that someone comes along and says "I think Idea A is true".  Someone else then says "OK, why should I buy this?"  The second person doesn't necessarily have a positive position of their own.  And just raising objections to Idea A doesn't count as taking a position either.  That's simply part of treating claims skeptically and, in the case where one is sympathetic to a claim, part of being intellectually honest. What you're talking about is improperly shifting the burden of proof to avoid dealing with one's own positive claims.  That doesn't invalidate the concept of "burden of proof" though.

Modifié par didymos1120, 03 mai 2011 - 06:18 .

[ErebUs890]

ExtremeOne wrote...

You know Op you anti Cerberus fans are pathetic . I am a Cerberus fan and pro human but what the alliance has done in 3 is even worse . They get Shepard to do arrival and then put him on trail. F the alliance and in 3 I will be a total b*tch to them

lol Yes, I'm pro-human, so I should experiment and murder my own kind. SOUNDS GREAT!

[ExtremeOne]

Reapinger wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

iakus wrote...

008Zulu wrote...

So which is he: The evil murdering terrorist these activites paint him as OR extremely incompetent?

Not sure this was brought up here, but not gonna search through 30 pages to find out:

I just completed a SM run, and while my SHep was arguing with TIM about saving/blowing up the base, Shepard says

"You're completely ruthless.  The next thing I know you'll be wanting to grow your own Reaper"

TIM's response:

"My goal is to save humanity from the Reapers.  At any cost.  I've never hidden that from you.  Imagine how many lives could be saved if we keep this base intact and use it's knowledge to thwart the Reapers.  Imagine the lives that will be lost if we don't"

Note he never denies wanting to build a Reaper.  In fact, in response he says he plans to save humanity at any cost. 

CerberReaper, anyone?

   


People forget that the nuclear bomb info and rockets as well jet engies  all come from what info and scienist that we captureed when we invading and took over Germany during WW 2 .  so saying that enemy technology is not useful is stupid .  

Uhhhhh we didn't steal "enemy" techinology. We harbored refugee scientists and asked them to start the Manhattan Project. Poor analogy extreme one. Not like we took the tech and didn't know what to do with it like the collector base.

   




Ok I see your point 

[GuardianAngel470]

didymos1120 wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Burden of proof is a fal[l]acy in my opinion. Every side of an argument should be able to substantiate their opinion when challenged. Burden of proof just gives one side or the other the ability to ignore a point entirely.

That's not what burden of proof is about.  The idea is that someone comes along and says "I think Idea A is true".  Someone else then says "OK, why should I buy this?"  The second person doesn't necessarily have a positive position of their own.  And just raising objections to Idea A doesn't count as taking a position either.  That's simply part of treating claims skeptically and, in the case where one is sympathetic to a claim, part of being intellectually honest. What you're talking about is improperly shifting the burden of proof to avoid dealing with one's own positive claims.  That doesn't invalidate the concept of "burden of proof" though.

Then I guess the phrase was misused and I misunderstood. Also, thanks for the subtle spelling correction there.

[Moiaussi]

008Zulu wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...
Unless his 'master plan' is to make his own reaper, then figures he can use it ala Overlord to control all the rest.

Providing that they are in constant contact. Sov did say they were each a nation, independant. With Overlord shut down tho, unless you were a Renegade, even then the hacked units fired at pretty much anything that moved. So maybe slightly less worse than "Oh God, oh God we're all gonna die."?

Besides the fact that we have no reason to trust Sovereign, in that propeganda works well with infiltration/indoctrination campaigns, TIM might know things that haven't been revealed yet or may simply think he does. "Independant nation' or not, the prothean beacon's description of the Reapers to Shepard were that they were a machine race, so even if not inorganic, techno-organic/cybernetic. That also plays into the fact that Shepard is becoming more and more cyber than human over the course of the series.

To the extent cybernetics are tied into the organic components, they would be potentially hackable.