1342 réponses à ce sujet

[Seboist]

centauri2002 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

That's the smirk of a HERO who masterminded the destruction of the Collectors,saved human colonies and gained technology to advance humanity against the Reapers.

I'm going to name my first born son after him.

Yes, that's the nefarious smirk of a galactic hero. 

I interpretted it somewhat differently after my RenShep basically threatened him and warned him not to get in her way. With the addition of information from what will be happening in ME3, that smirk makes a lot of sense to me now. >.>

Out of curiosity: Tim or Jack? 

My Shep used the "we need each other" dialogue option, so she's on good terms with her future husband.

Oh and I'll name my boy "Illusive Jack".

[Centauri2002]

I wish your Shepard all the best in ME3 then! Let's hope she can get over the whole "I want to kill you now" thing. I'm sure they can chat it out over a candlelit dinner.

[lolwut666]

Off-topic, but anyone else thinks that Jack Harper is a shout-out to Two and Half Man?

[Seboist]

centauri2002 wrote...

I wish your Shepard all the best in ME3 then! Let's hope she can get over the whole "I want to kill you now" thing. I'm sure they can chat it out over a candlelit dinner.

Some evil wizard called Mac Walters banished the real TIM somewhere and is using some robot imitator to control Cerberus. That's why they're after her not because TIM is against her.

Remember that.

[Moiaussi]

TobyHasEyes wrote...

 With respect, that shows the value of consitutions and charters of rights, which do not have a necessary link to democracy. Don't get me wrong, I recognise the good things about democracy. They restrict the actions of government in a way which makes abuse harder (rather than impossible) and, as I say, allow for the public to engage with political and ethical issues, which is a very good thing

Such charters were proto-democracy in that they limited the King's power, however when the King is the source of law, they were still subject to change or abandonment, no different than any other contract.

  They do have their faults however.. which is why TO RETURN THE DISCUSSION TO MASS EFFECT I do not take issue with Turians and Salarians having systems of government that are nither a democracy nor a totalitarian regime

The Turians have a meritocracy. No clue who chooses merit or how it is chosen. Their economy has to be propped up by the Volus though in that Turians see no merit in economics, and they get help with negotiations from the Asari, who are a pure democracy, so in a sense they might be letting wiser peoples govern on their behalf while they retain the illusion of being in charge (which, incidentally, is a common criticism of every representative democracy). In both cases though they survive by ceding significant aspects of their sovereignty.

As for the Salarians, the only thing I can think of is that they are sufficiently good at data analysis that they have an easier time maintaining benevolent dictatorships over multiple generations.

This doesn't mean that Turian or Salarian solutions would work well for humans.

[TobyHasEyes]

I agree, I never stated that they would be necessarily be good solutions for humans.. in fact they probably aren't. However, if we encountered alien races so similar to ourselves as to allow commincation and diplomacy, and those aliens engaged in successful un-democratic governments, they would merit a LOT of attention from humans

[TobyHasEyes]

That and I was making the point that democracy doesn't necessarily equal freedom. I would regard constitutions of such a kind as necessary guarantors of certain freedoms, but not essentially democratic

[Moiaussi]

TobyHasEyes wrote...

That and I was making the point that democracy doesn't necessarily equal freedom. I would regard constitutions of such a kind as necessary guarantors of certain freedoms, but not essentially democratic

The best we can ever manage is a compromise to achieve the most overall freedom practical. None of this philosophising regarding freedom or democracy in any way changes the fact that TIM wants a dictatorship with him in charge and doing anything he thinks will advance the race no matter how harsh.

His philosophy sounds a lot like Stalin's, right down to assassinating anyone getting in his way or whom he perceives as in his way.

[008Zulu]

Seboist wrote...

My Shep used the "we need each other" dialogue option, so she's on good terms with her future husband.

Sure it might work out ok for the first few years, then his freudian will slip and scream at you for destroying the base before attacking you with a fork.

For conveiniances sake, destroying the base will be seen as a betrayal no matter what you say.

[lolwut666]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

None of this philosophising regarding freedom or democracy in any way changes the fact that TIM wants a dictatorship with him in charge and doing anything he thinks will advance the race no matter how harsh.

Post proof or retract.

Actual quote from the game:

Illusive Man: "My goal has always been to advance the cause of humanity; at any cost. I've never hidden that from you."

For more proof, try reading the novels.

[Moiaussi]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

None of this philosophising regarding freedom or democracy in any way changes the fact that TIM wants a dictatorship with him in charge and doing anything he thinks will advance the race no matter how harsh.

Post proof or retract.

I have at least once in this thread. To repeat, TIM's words from the prologue of Ascension:

"The Alliance was a clumsy, blunt instrument, weighed down by laws, convention, and the crushing weight of public opinion."

A bit later he says:

"There are those who would call what he did criminal. Unethical. Amoral."

Complaining about 'the crushing weight of public opinion' is a complaint against democracy. Insisting that what needs to be done is considered by that public opinion 'criminal, unethical and amoral' proves the 'no matter how harsh' aspect of his philosophy.

Those are TIM's words, so they are a direct source.

The in-game quote alludes to this, but isn't as strong as that monologue from Ascension.

Modifié par Moiaussi, 04 mai 2011 - 01:58 .

[Moiaussi]

Saphra Deden wrote...

So he's critical of political pandering. That doesn't mean he wants to be the dictator of mankind.

Oh come on, complaining about political pandering isn't 'criminal, unethical and amoral,' and followiing pubic opinion IS democracy.

It is following minority opinions or particular special interests over the needs and desires of society overall that is when it becomes 'pandering,' and that generally is considered unethical and often considered criminal, albeit hard to prove or convict on.

[Moiaussi]

thurmanator692 wrote...

hell, i guess i'm a dictator of mankind too! who knew?

What criminal, unethical and amoral activities are you involved in? And are you actually in government?

[Moiaussi]

thurmanator692 wrote...

democracy sucks when the majority has their thumb stuck up their ass

I suppose, but the majority is often accused of such by those who were simply outvoted, with no other evidence.

Dictatorship on the other hand consists of someone else telling you to stick your thumb up your ass, usually at gunpoint, and telling you to like it or they will shoot. Or you can rebel and if successful there is unrest and/or outright until society settles on a more sensible form of government.