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[Someone With Mass]

Backup is still backup. Just because that assclown TIM said it, doesn't make it true.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 04 mai 2011 - 04:59 .

[Someone With Mass]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Friendly fire is still fire.

Yeah, because they'd gun down three armed people for no good reason if they had the chance without any evidence to support their suspicion. That's how the Alliance works.

Pff...

[Arijharn]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Backup is still backup. Just because that assclown TIM said it, doesn't make it true.

Lol, it's staggering how much irony is in your statement. "Backup is still backup," I hate to state the obvious but Cerberus was your backup for the entirety of ME2.
Who resurrected you from the dead?
Who gave you a ship?
Who gave you a crew?
Who gave you the supplies needed?
Who gave you the intel you needed to finish your mission?
Who gave you direction?

You know, I can think of only one maybe two missions in the entire game where the Alliance actually supported your actions. One of them was the DLC crashed Normandy or whatever where you had to find the dogtags and place the monument, and the other maybe was the moon Watson that fired a missile at two locations on a colony and you had to find out which.

Save the Cerberus witch-hunt until after the Reapers imo.

[Moiaussi]

Saphra Deden wrote...

What does that have to do with anything and it wound being true anyway.

Look up 'self fulfilling prophecy. He stacked the deck so he would appear correct. There is no point arguing against blind faith though. Your arguements all amount to 'he said he did the right thing and you believe him'

That's the nature of command. If you don't need to know then you don't need to know. It's a security precaution to prevent the enemy from gaining an advantage.

But too much control and you hamstring your resources. It is the same dilemma as exists with indoctrination. The net efffect of that level of information control is that TIM doesn't trust his own agents, including Shepard. Do you believe Shepard is untrustworthy? Even when you are the one playing Shepard?

In the latest novel TIM was perfectly willing to hand over Reaper information and was relieved that other groups would finally be doing something about the problem.

While it is possible TIM has finally changed his ways (or been retconned), that is inconsistant with his actions in both the game and prior books. I just read a synopsis of Retribution on the wiki. I see no such mention of TIM offering to hand over any such thing. He agrees to let Aria keep a copy of the Alliance research that he purchases from her (not that he would have any way to prevent her keeping a copy), but I see no sign of him volunteering data. Can you provide a quote?
 
I haven't picked it up yet so giving you the benefit of the doubt, although given how far you have twisted everything else in your own mind, I am skeptical that such an offer was ever made.

[008Zulu]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Backup is still backup.

Friendly fire is still fire.

Good luck with the Renegades wanting to kill the Alliance squadmates then, Friendly Fire is disabled. You will bleed your thermal clips dry before you hurt them. You'd only be hurting your chances of completing a mission if you kept sending them off to die become temporarily incapacitated.

[TobyHasEyes]

wiggles89 wrote...

michaelrsa wrote...
Actually no, it's just as valid as his. There is no universal truth, we all just pretend our is the corrent one.

I hope I'm not the only one who sees the irony in this.

 Far from the only one.. but still I think there should be a rule that when a forum discussion turns to debates on the nature of truth and reality then it has officially gone OFF TOPIC

[Seboist]

Arijharn wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Backup is still backup. Just because that assclown TIM said it, doesn't make it true.

Lol, it's staggering how much irony is in your statement. "Backup is still backup," I hate to state the obvious but Cerberus was your backup for the entirety of ME2.
Who resurrected you from the dead?
Who gave you a ship?
Who gave you a crew?
Who gave you the supplies needed?
Who gave you the intel you needed to finish your mission?
Who gave you direction?

You know, I can think of only one maybe two missions in the entire game where the Alliance actually supported your actions. One of them was the DLC crashed Normandy or whatever where you had to find the dogtags and place the monument, and the other maybe was the moon Watson that fired a missile at two locations on a colony and you had to find out which.

Save the Cerberus witch-hunt until after the Reapers imo.

Yep, Cerberus supported Shepard in ME2 more than the Council did in ME1.

[TobyHasEyes]

You were operating outside of Council space.. so considering you hadn't given them any strong evidence of the Reapers.. how much should they help you? They gave you your Spectre status back and let you do what you wanted to do

It seems like ever since humanity discovered the Council existed all its been doing is asking for more, more, more. Its simply an alliance of sentient races who want to promote stability and create laws to learn the lessons of the past. Not an intragalactic magic box of treats

[Moiaussi]

Arijharn wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Backup is still backup. Just because that assclown TIM said it, doesn't make it true.

Lol, it's staggering how much irony is in your statement. "Backup is still backup," I hate to state the obvious but Cerberus was your backup for the entirety of ME2.
Who resurrected you from the dead?
Who gave you a ship?
Who gave you a crew?
Who gave you the supplies needed?
Who gave you the intel you needed to finish your mission?
Who gave you direction?

You know, I can think of only one maybe two missions in the entire game where the Alliance actually supported your actions. One of them was the DLC crashed Normandy or whatever where you had to find the dogtags and place the monument, and the other maybe was the moon Watson that fired a missile at two locations on a colony and you had to find out which.

Save the Cerberus witch-hunt until after the Reapers imo.

Cerberus ressurrected you.

Other than that....

The ship was based on the one the Alliance placed under your command.
The alliance and council supplied you at least as well as Cerberus.
The alliance and council provided the intel needed in ME1, or at least sufficient intel for you to determine the rest.  - That included STG support where needed (vermire)
Direction? Other than the intel, what direction was needed?

You are looking solely at ME2, where TIM deliberately undermined your credibility with the Council and Alliance and you (Shepard) were too much of a derp to say anything in your defense other than OMG, Reapers! Cerberus put you back together just as you were before death. That means if tested, they should find your body is two years younger than you would be if you had been around as a Cerberus agent all that time.

There were ways to confirm important elements of your story if you (Shepard) had used even just a couple brain cells to do so.

As for the intel, there were almost certainly other sources (such as the Shadow Broker and STG's), and any lack of intel would have been due to Cerberus suppression of vital data.

If Shepard had worked to clear himself with the Alliance and/or Council, and quit going on about Reapers instead of concentrating on the Collectors and building the case to prove the Reapers existance, it is a safe bet he would have gotten a fresh ship and supplies. From what we know of Spectres, they usually work relatively independantly, with a great deal of discretion. Shepard never learned to play the system, so ends up getting rejected by the Council and played by Cerberus, and in the end (given we are told he will be hunted by Cerberus in ME3), rejected by both at different times.

[Seboist]

TobyHasEyes wrote...

You were operating outside of Council space.. so considering you hadn't given them any strong evidence of the Reapers.. how much should they help you? They gave you your Spectre status back and let you do what you wanted to do

It seems like ever since humanity discovered the Council existed all its been doing is asking for more, more, more. Its simply an alliance of sentient races who want to promote stability and create laws to learn the lessons of the past. Not an intragalactic magic box of treats

The Krogans and Quarians would beg to differ on this "Alliance". It's an Asari/Turian/Salarian racial caste good ol' boys club that shuns other species. I had no second thought about throwing them under the bus for the survival of the Galaxy at the end of ME1 and I hope I can disolve the whole system at the end of ME3.

I have more trust in the Rachni and the Geth than the Council. They don't speak with forked tongue.

[TobyHasEyes]

The Quarians got kicked out of the group because they broke the rules they agreed to go along with, they weren't attacked or anything. The Krogans were given world after world to thank them for defeating the Rachni, but then they wanted to take over the galaxy and establish a Krogan Empire. Even the most tolerant alliance will object to one race deciding to conquer the entire galaxy

[General User]

TobyHasEyes wrote...

The Quarians got kicked out of the group because they broke the rules they agreed to go along with, they weren't attacked or anything. The Krogans were given world after world to thank them for defeating the Rachni, but then they wanted to take over the galaxy and establish a Krogan Empire. Even the most tolerant alliance will object to one race deciding to conquer the entire galaxy

I might be nit-picking here, but…
 
Leaving aside ftm the post-Morning War treatment of the quarians, I wouldn't neccessarily expect the Council to throw themselves on the sword for the quarians sake.  

When the geth awoke, the Council had to decide whether they would back the quarians or hang them out to dry, they had plenty of excuses and reasons to do either. And, just like Ashley said they would, the Council decided to sic their dog on the bear and run. It’s logical, it’s understandable, it’s just not noble.
 
A pet point of mine is that Cerberus exhibits a sort of “animal nobility” ie wanting humanity to be the “alpha dog” in the galaxy. Well, in that same vein, the Council exhibits a sort of “animal ignobility” ie abandoning their allies when they feel it suits them. 

 
The immediate aftermath of the Rachni Wars is also a personal sticking point for me: weren’t the krogan “given” the formerly rachni worlds? The same worlds the krogan had conquered? What gives the Council the right to “give” away something that rightfully belonged to the krogan in the first place? 

That insult alone is enough to start a war in many cultures.

Modifié par General User, 04 mai 2011 - 12:52 .

[lolwut666]

Saphra Deden in denial.

What else is new?

Modifié par lolwut666, 04 mai 2011 - 01:40 .

[Jagri]

General User wrote... 
The immediate aftermath of the Rachni Wars is also a personal sticking point for me: weren’t the krogan “given” the formerly rachni worlds? The same worlds the krogan had conquered? What gives the Council the right to “give” away something that rightfully belonged to the krogan in the first place? 

That insult alone is enough to start a war in many cultures.

For a brief period the krogan were hailed as the saviors of the galaxy and were given not only the conquered rachni worlds but other planets in Citadel space to colonise, in gratitude for their help.

Funny how people tend to ignore the Council also gave them planets unrelated to the Rachni War in gratitude. Do you think the Krogans were really insulted when the Council said "Well on top of the planets you conquered you also get these additional planets to expand!"

If you want to be really slick they could have told the Krogan "Of course the planets you conquered are yours but we feel you deserve other worlds to colonise as well for your help."

Modifié par Jagri, 04 mai 2011 - 01:55 .

[lolwut666]

The krogan were subdued because they started expanding at the cost of other species.

They lost the right to those planets and whatever benefits they earned when they stopped the rachni once they became a threat themselves.

[General User]

Jagri wrote...

General User wrote... 
The immediate aftermath of the Rachni Wars is also a personal sticking point for me: weren’t the krogan “given” the formerly rachni worlds? The same worlds the krogan had conquered? What gives the Council the right to “give” away something that rightfully belonged to the krogan in the first place? 

That insult alone is enough to start a war in many cultures.

For a brief period the krogan were hailed as the saviors of the galaxy and were given not only the conquered rachni worlds but other planets in Citadel space to colonise, in gratitude for their help.

Funny how people tend to ignore the Council also gave them planets unrelated to the Rachni War in gratitude. Do you think the Krogans were really insulted when the Council said "Well on top of the planets you conquered you also get these additional planets to expand!"

Of course the Council can dispose of Council administered worlds as they see fit. It does them a credit to give them to the krogan. My concern in this matter is rather exclusively with the formerly rachni worlds. In other words, I don’t see how the Council’s magnanimity with their own property effects their right to do anything with anyone else’s property.


 
May I assume from your interpretation of the Council’s post-Rachni Wars stance (ie "Well on top of the planets you conquered you also get these additional planets to expand!") that if (and I do stress the if) the Council’s policy was more in line with my interpretation (ie “You know those planets you conquered, we’re going to let you settle on those!”) that it would indeed constitute a dire insult to the krogan?

If so, allow me to share how and why I arrived at my interpretation: I believe the Council has a history of deciding the fates of planets they don’t really have any rights over. After all, they had no problem awarding colonization rights to entirely unsettled worlds in the Skyllian Verge or the Attican Traverse. They even stopped the quarians from settling in the Terminus!

Jagri wrote...
If you want to be really slick they could have told the Krogan "Of course the planets you conquered are yours but we feel you deserve other worlds to colonise as well for your help."

That sounds possible, even plausible. May I ask how and why you believe that may have been the case?

Krogan aren’t exactly know for their “slickness” if the Council did take that line I imagine the typical krogan response would be: “Damn right we do! Also we want money!”

Modifié par General User, 04 mai 2011 - 02:26 .

[TobyHasEyes]

Hmmm.. calling self-preservation "animal nobility" is a bit of semantics which doesn't convince me that what they do is morally good

The Krogan had already conquered the Rachni-worlds, wiped out the Rachni species and begun inhabiting. That and the planetary conditions were so severe that only Krogan could finish the fight, so perhaps its not unreasonable to think that theonly Krogan could even live there.

As for the colony clashes between the Batarians and the Humans; the point of contention was actually that the Council REFUSED to dictate which planets belonged to whom

And they stopped the Quarians settling in the Terminus? Genuinely would appreciate some evidence, because the Council doesn't even exercise authority in Terminus space

[General User]

TobyHasEyes wrote...
Hmmm.. calling self-preservation "animal nobility" is a bit of semantics which doesn't convince me that what they do is morally good

That’s good! Because I didn’t mean it to! 

I only meant that TIM has dedicated Cerberus to something besides his personal aggrandizement. That while his methods may be perverse, even nonsensical, there are still “embers of goodness” in his motives. So even if he is evil, he’s not entirely so.

TobyHasEyes wrote...
The Krogan had already conquered the Rachni-worlds, wiped out the Rachni species and begun inhabiting. That and the planetary conditions were so severe that only Krogan could finish the fight, so perhaps its not unreasonable to think that theonly Krogan could even live there.

Certainly that is true.  A bit besides the point, but still worth considering.

TobyHasEyes wrote...
As for the colony clashes between the Batarians and the Humans; the point of contention was actually that the Council REFUSED to dictate which planets belonged to whom

Perhaps I am misinformed? I understood the batarians withdrew from the Citadel as a protest to the Council awarding disputed colonization areas to the Alliance. 

TobyHasEyes wrote...
And they stopped the Quarians settling in the Terminus? Genuinely would appreciate some evidence, because the Council doesn't even exercise authority in Terminus space

Sure, the world was called Ekuna, in the Phoenix Massing which Shepard seems to descibe as being a Terminus region during Legion's loyalty mission ("You build stations in the Terminus?").

The planet was first discovered and explored by the quarians about 100-odd years before the events of ME, but the Council awarded colonization rights to the elcor. Too late, the quarians had already settled, so the Council sent in the Fleet to evict the squatters under threat of orbital bombardment.  

[Moiaussi]

The objected to a quarian plan to settle a heavy gravity world already ceded to the Elcor. It being a heavy gravity world, guess which race it was better suited to?

I don't remember any source citing exactly where the world was though. The Terminus systems makes no sense since the Council have no authority there, but there might have been an additional objection in that we now know that terminus is adjacent to the veil (which of course begs a whole mess of questions, such as how the Geth managed to completely ignore the Termunus systems despite human colonies there, how the Quarians maintained trade and other relations with the Council despite said region being between the two empires, and how it was possible for Council fleets to patrol the border without starting a war with the Terminus systems.

[Jagri]

@General User

Speculation at best... The Krogan Rebellion started when they attempted to take a Asari colony world and the Council warned them to back off. Nothing said they had some lingering resent towards being given worlds they conquered nor have I ever heard a Krogan even mention it during the series. I think for all intent and purposes the Council might have never even mention giving the Krogan those Rachni worlds but merely said they would give them other planets for their efforts.

The council does see over worlds within its systems and I am sure claims those that are disputed. This system has appearently worked for over 2,000 years and within that period only two intergalactic wars broke out and only one was against the Council policy. To be fair to the Council the Krogan race were the aggressors and given their culture only strength is respected not policy or politics.

[General User]

Jagri wrote...
Speculation at best... The Krogan Rebellion started when they attempted to take a Asari colony world and the Council warned them to back off. Nothing said they had some lingering resent towards being given worlds they conquered nor have I ever heard a Krogan even mention it during the series. I think for all intent and purposes the Council might have never even mention giving the Krogan those Rachni worlds but merely said they would give them other planets for their efforts.

Of course it’s bloody speculation! There is no definitive answer to the question of what specifically informed and motivated, or in many cases even constituted Council policy in the wake of the Rachni Wars. 

I based my speculation on a characterization of the Council informed by their more recent actions. What did you base yours on?

Jagri wrote...
The council does see over worlds within its systems and I am sure claims those that are disputed. This system has appearently worked for over 2,000 years and within that period only two intergalactic wars broke out and only one was against the Council policy. To be fair to the Council the Krogan race were the aggressors and given their culture only strength is respected not policy or politics.

I agree on all points.

Modifié par General User, 04 mai 2011 - 03:36 .