1342 réponses à ce sujet

[lolwut666]

The only reason some people agree with Cerberus is because they don't even consider the possibility that they might be expendable.

Ego, yo.

I'm really curious to know exactly how valuable would a bunch of nerdy video game players be to an organization such as Cerberus.

Modifié par lolwut666, 04 mai 2011 - 03:39 .

[General User]

Ask the NSA.

Modifié par General User, 04 mai 2011 - 03:46 .

[Seboist]

lolwut666 wrote...

The only reason some people agree with Cerberus is because they don't even consider the possibility that they might be expendable.

Ego, yo.

I'm really curious to know exactly how valuable would a bunch of nerdy video game players be to an organization such as Cerberus.

Like my man Jack Harper said he didn't spend two years and billions of credits just to have Shepard serve as a common soldier. He has great respect for Commander S.

Modifié par Seboist, 04 mai 2011 - 03:49 .

[lolwut666]

Are you actually comparing Cerberus to the NSA?

Talk about fooling yourself.

[General User]

You asked why Cerberus would want a bunch of nerds like us. Cryptography and communications intellegence (such the NSA does) are two fine reasons.

Modifié par General User, 04 mai 2011 - 03:51 .

[lolwut666]

Being a nerd has more to do with lifestyle than with mental capacity or anything else.

There are a bunch of nerds who a just regular people; some are even quite below average.

An organization like Cerberus would need the best, and there's only so much they can employ.

My point is that you are supporting an organization that is willing to risk or straight up sacrifice the lives of innocents for their own benefits, and that you and those you care about could be among the casualties.

Modifié par lolwut666, 04 mai 2011 - 03:57 .

[General User]

I thought you point was that Cerberus was willing to risk or straight up sacrifice the lives of their own members.

[lolwut666]

Then you misunderstood what I said.

And they'd sacrifice both.

Already did.

[Nohvarr]

posted this in another thread, but it bears repeating here...

I ran across the following in another forum. I'm reposting the relevant bits here.as it gives a good perspective on TIM and his organization

Excuse: The Illusive man didn't Know

Yeah. He claimed. But then again, Jacob clearly outlined a situation in the Alliance in the very beginning of the game where Alliance born and Alliance bred humans did off-the-books work for the Alliance so the Alliance could get things done (like assassinations) without 'actually' having to do them. Their dirty laundry gets cleaned, and if **** ever goes south, they disavow all knowledge and say you're a rouge element.

What did the Illusive Man do when you pointed out all the evil **** Cerberus has done? Well, he said things had changed. And when you pressed the issue? He said he knew nothing about it and claimed they were rouge elements.

That's a hell of a familiar excuse, isn't it? Didn't we just hear that story about the Corsairs about five minutes before that? We did.

Fact: The Illusive Man handles the money and the direction of the organization. He's the one who sets up the projects, and he's the one who writes the checks. Practically speaking, it's pretty much impossible for a section of Cerberus to literally 'go rouge.' They would lose all access to their resources, and the rest of the organization would swoop in under Illusive Man's orders to crush them, because he knows who they are, where they live, what they look like, and exactly how to track them down. So unless they're all giganinjas and managed to set up a billion intergalactic lemonade stands while nobody was looking, the scenario claimed is pretty much impossible.

That only leaves one real explanation left. He knew, he funded it, and when [expletive deleted] went sour, he cut them loose. Hell, the entire Cerberus organization is founded on that. Look at how they're organized. Cells that know nothing about each other, have nothing to do with each other, and work independently from everyone else. The only one who knows everything that's going on is the Illusive Man. No one else exists who could corroborate any story or evidence. The left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing, so if the left hand gets cut off one day, the head can feed the right hand whatever story it wants.

On Cerberus' past actions and what they say about the group

They were planting Dragon's Teeth onto out-of-the-way colony worlds to observe the effects. They were sending out Rachnai into areas garrisoned with Alliance military personnel just to observe how the Rachnai fight. They planted fake distress beacons in the middle of Thresher nests just to gather data on them, at the expense of two entire companies of soldiers. They assassinated Admiral Kohaku and threw his body into a pen filled with husks just for the hell of it. They injected the acid venom of a Maw into a marine's blood "to see what would happen."

Are you seriously going to try and tell me that all of that was 'just rouge agents?' Either the Illusive Man is the most incompetent manager EVER, or he's lying out of both sides of his mouth at the same time, and trying to bull**** you for every last bit he can take you for.

The Illusive Man has intel detailed enough to know the exact measurements of every member of his organization. Are you seriously going to pretend that entire cells could go rouge and do these massive operations, and for him to not know anything about it?

On the Illusive man himself

The Illusive Man, and I quote, "represents both the best and the absolute worst of humanity in one package." That means he's self-sacrificing, a patriot, and a man of his word. It also means he's a lying liar who lies lies, is willing to sacrifice as many lives as it takes to get what he wants, has no compunctions or moral boundaries he isn't willing to cross with impunity, and will cheerfully and without hesitation betray and screw-over anyone and anything that starts messing with him and his bottom line, up to and including entire species, the Citadel, the Council, the Alliance, his own organization, every last person under his command, and you, Commander Shepard.

"Why is the Illusive Man after Shepard in Mass Effect 3?"

[expletive deleted], I'm surprised it took him this long.

[008Zulu]

lolwut666 wrote...

Being a nerd has more to do with lifestyle than with mental capacity or anything else.

There are a bunch of nerds who a just regular people; some are even quite below average.

An organization like Cerberus would need the best, and there's only so much they can employ.

My point is that you are supporting an organization that is willing to risk or straight up sacrifice the lives of innocents for their own benefits, and that you and those you care about would be among the casualties.

Never let it be said Cerberus doesn't recognise the usefulness of cannon fodder, or test subjects.

[GreenDragon37]

Nohvarr wrote...

posted this in another thread, but it bears repeating here...

I ran across the following in another forum. I'm reposting the relevant bits here.as it gives a good perspective on TIM and his organization

Excuse: The Illusive man didn't Know

Yeah. He claimed. But then again, Jacob clearly outlined a situation in the Alliance in the very beginning of the game where Alliance born and Alliance bred humans did off-the-books work for the Alliance so the Alliance could get things done (like assassinations) without 'actually' having to do them. Their dirty laundry gets cleaned, and if **** ever goes south, they disavow all knowledge and say you're a rouge element.

What did the Illusive Man do when you pointed out all the evil **** Cerberus has done? Well, he said things had changed. And when you pressed the issue? He said he knew nothing about it and claimed they were rouge elements.

That's a hell of a familiar excuse, isn't it? Didn't we just hear that story about the Corsairs about five minutes before that? We did.

Fact: The Illusive Man handles the money and the direction of the organization. He's the one who sets up the projects, and he's the one who writes the checks. Practically speaking, it's pretty much impossible for a section of Cerberus to literally 'go rouge.' They would lose all access to their resources, and the rest of the organization would swoop in under Illusive Man's orders to crush them, because he knows who they are, where they live, what they look like, and exactly how to track them down. So unless they're all giganinjas and managed to set up a billion intergalactic lemonade stands while nobody was looking, the scenario claimed is pretty much impossible.

That only leaves one real explanation left. He knew, he funded it, and when [expletive deleted] went sour, he cut them loose. Hell, the entire Cerberus organization is founded on that. Look at how they're organized. Cells that know nothing about each other, have nothing to do with each other, and work independently from everyone else. The only one who knows everything that's going on is the Illusive Man. No one else exists who could corroborate any story or evidence. The left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing, so if the left hand gets cut off one day, the head can feed the right hand whatever story it wants.

On Cerberus' past actions and what they say about the group

They were planting Dragon's Teeth onto out-of-the-way colony worlds to observe the effects. They were sending out Rachnai into areas garrisoned with Alliance military personnel just to observe how the Rachnai fight. They planted fake distress beacons in the middle of Thresher nests just to gather data on them, at the expense of two entire companies of soldiers. They assassinated Admiral Kohaku and threw his body into a pen filled with husks just for the hell of it. They injected the acid venom of a Maw into a marine's blood "to see what would happen."

Are you seriously going to try and tell me that all of that was 'just rouge agents?' Either the Illusive Man is the most incompetent manager EVER, or he's lying out of both sides of his mouth at the same time, and trying to bull**** you for every last bit he can take you for.

The Illusive Man has intel detailed enough to know the exact measurements of every member of his organization. Are you seriously going to pretend that entire cells could go rouge and do these massive operations, and for him to not know anything about it?

On the Illusive man himself

The Illusive Man, and I quote, "represents both the best and the absolute worst of humanity in one package." That means he's self-sacrificing, a patriot, and a man of his word. It also means he's a lying liar who lies lies, is willing to sacrifice as many lives as it takes to get what he wants, has no compunctions or moral boundaries he isn't willing to cross with impunity, and will cheerfully and without hesitation betray and screw-over anyone and anything that starts messing with him and his bottom line, up to and including entire species, the Citadel, the Council, the Alliance, his own organization, every last person under his command, and you, Commander Shepard.

"Why is the Illusive Man after Shepard in Mass Effect 3?"

[expletive deleted], I'm surprised it took him this long.

Once again, I agree.

[General User]

lolwut666 wrote...

Then you misunderstood what I said.

And they'd sacrifice both.

Already did.

Cerberus is no different in that regard than every single military and government that has ever existed. 

What makes Cerberus' willingness to sacrifice innocents and it's own members particularly abhorrant?

[Dave666]

General User wrote...

lolwut666 wrote...

Then you misunderstood what I said.

And they'd sacrifice both.

Already did.

Cerberus is no different in that regard than every single military and government that has ever existed. 

What makes Cerberus' willingness to sacrifice innocents and it's own members particularly abhorrant?

Just because others do things just as abhorrent does not make such behaviour acceptable.

[General User]

It's not just 'others', it's ALL of them, all others.  It is as unfair as it is ridiculous to give Cerberus a black mark for what is really just the nature of having power and having to make tough calls for the greater good. 

If innocents died to save many more (like on Horizon) would that be acceptable?

If and organization’s members are willing to die to achieve that organization’s objectives (like on Lazarus station) would that not be acceptable?

Modifié par General User, 05 mai 2011 - 12:47 .

[Dave666]

General User wrote...

It's not just 'others', it's ALL of them, all others.  It is as unfair as it is ridiculous to give Cerberus a black mark for what is really just the nature of having power and having to make tough calls for the greater good. 

If innocents died to save many more (like on Horizon) would that be acceptable?

If and organization’s members are willing to die to achieve that organization’s objectives (like on Lazarus station) would that not be acceptable?

If an organizations members were willing, then yes, thats acceptable, they chose to do so and I applaud their bravery.

However when it comes to Cerberus, they usually die because of screw ups.  Project Overlord and the Teltin Facility spring to mind.

I might also add that I highly doubt that any of the children who were murdered by Cerberus at Teltin actually 'volunteered' for that fate.  I believe that a fair few of them were slaves bought from the Batarians.

Child:  Woop!  I'm free! This nice man has got me away from those evil slavers!

Cerberus operative: *grins and rubs hands*  Come with me child.

Child:  Ahhh!!! Stop hurting me!  No! Please I don't want to fight and kill the other children!  Please! Stop sticking needles in me!


Sure, very acceptable behaviour.

What did it produce again?  One powerful Biotic who is dying.

Why did they not simply train all of those poor Biotic Children to work in concert?  I'm fairly sure that twenty Biotics all focusing their abilities on the same spot would be several orders of magnitude stronger than Jack on her own.

[Dean_the_Young]

Dave666 wrote...


Just because others do things just as abhorrent does not make such behaviour acceptable.

Sure.

Now, when everyone does things that they don't consider abhorrent or unforgivable when it's done in their favor, it does become increasingly acceptible.

You want to do legal-free experiments on sentient creatures? Just sign the documents for a corporate world 'outside Council space' even though it's populated, owned, serves, and employed by the powers of Council space. Want license to assassinate, torture, or bomb as you see fit to shape the galaxy as 'necessary'? So long as you got the Council seat to appoint a Spectre to do so, it's all good.

[Dean_the_Young]

Dave666 wrote...

If an organizations members were willing, then yes, thats acceptable, they chose to do so and I applaud their bravery.

However when it comes to Cerberus, they usually die because of screw ups.  Project Overlord and the Teltin Facility spring to mind.

How can the rogue cell of Teltin in any sense be considered a norm or baseline for Cerberus? Even the rogue cell, by its own recordings, knew that what they were doing was unacceptable tests by Cerberus standards. Or did you forget that part?



Let's ignore the questionable allowance of David being in a Cerberus uniform before the Overlord experiment as well, and how that one blew up because they succeded past what they were prepared to accept.

Why did they not simply train all of those poor Biotic Children to work in concert?  I'm fairly sure that twenty Biotics all focusing their abilities on the same spot would be several orders of magnitude stronger than Jack on her own.

What's the point of special forces in general? Because there are times you can't, won't, have twenty people at one point.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 05 mai 2011 - 01:18 .

[Dave666]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Dave666 wrote...

If an organizations members were willing, then yes, thats acceptable, they chose to do so and I applaud their bravery.

However when it comes to Cerberus, they usually die because of screw ups.  Project Overlord and the Teltin Facility spring to mind.

How can the rogue cell of Teltin in any sense be considered a norm or baseline for Cerberus?


Let's ignore the questionable allowance of David being in a Cerberus uniform before the Overlord experiment as well, and how that one blew up because they succeded past what they were prepared to accept.

Why did they not simply train all of those poor Biotic Children to work in concert?  I'm fairly sure that twenty Biotics all focusing their abilities on the same spot would be several orders of magnitude stronger than Jack on her own.

What's the point of special forces in general? Because there are times you can't, won't, have twenty people at one point.

If you create a special unit of Biotics, trained to work in concert, then you would have them travel together, thats kinda the point.  You wouldn't send them off on solo missions, you'd send them all together.  I said twenty, because Cerberus killed at least that many on Pragia just look at the number of beds etc, that and the fact that enough children died that it was worthwhile for them to install child sized mortuary tables (Jack and the second Squaddie talk about it in one of the rooms), you don't go to that effort for one or two.

[General User]

Dave666 wrote...
However when it comes to Cerberus, they usually die because of screw ups.  

Ummm… yes? Most people who die before their time do so because of a screw-up somewhere along the line.  In my experience, genuine accidents are vanishingly rare. 

Dave666 wrote...
Project Overlord and the Teltin Facility spring to mind.

I might also add that I highly doubt that any of the children who were murdered by Cerberus at Teltin actually 'volunteered' for that fate.  I believe that a fair few of them were slaves bought from the Batarians.

Child:  Woop!  I'm free! This nice man has got me away from those evil slavers!

Cerberus operative: *grins and rubs hands*  Come with me child.

Child:  Ahhh!!! Stop hurting me!  No! Please I don't want to fight and kill the other children!  Please! Stop sticking needles in me!


Sure, very acceptable behaviour.

What did it produce again?  One powerful Biotic who is dying.

Why did they not simply train all of those poor Biotic Children to work in concert?  I'm fairly sure that twenty Biotics all focusing their abilities on the same spot would be several orders of magnitude stronger than Jack on her own.

I’m not sure the Teltin Cell accomplished much of anything, myself. The only product we can absolutely trace back to them is Jack, and as powerful as she is, she is still replaceable. 

But what about Horizon? What is your opinion of / perspective on the Horizon operation?

Modifié par General User, 05 mai 2011 - 01:30 .

[Dave666]

General User wrote...

Dave666 wrote...
However when it comes to Cerberus, they usually die because of screw ups.  

Ummm… yes? Most people who die before their time do so because of a screw-up somewhere along the line.  In my experience, genuine accidents are vanishingly rare. 

Dave666 wrote...
Project Overlord and the Teltin Facility spring to mind.

I might also add that I highly doubt that any of the children who were murdered by Cerberus at Teltin actually 'volunteered' for that fate.  I believe that a fair few of them were slaves bought from the Batarians.

Child:  Woop!  I'm free! This nice man has got me away from those evil slavers!

Cerberus operative: *grins and rubs hands*  Come with me child.

Child:  Ahhh!!! Stop hurting me!  No! Please I don't want to fight and kill the other children!  Please! Stop sticking needles in me!


Sure, very acceptable behaviour.

What did it produce again?  One powerful Biotic who is dying.

Why did they not simply train all of those poor Biotic Children to work in concert?  I'm fairly sure that twenty Biotics all focusing their abilities on the same spot would be several orders of magnitude stronger than Jack on her own.

I’m not sure the Teltin Cell accomplished much of anything, myself. The only product we can absolutely trace back to them is Jack, and as powerful as she is, she is still replaceable. 

But what about Horizon? What is your opinion of / perspective on the Horizon operation?

Honest answer?  I'm torn.  On the one hand they deliberately placed the VS and Shepard in danger along with the Colony, on the otherhand a colony somewhere would be hit next we just wouldn't know which.  Thats not to say that The Incompetent Man couldn't have used a different target, perhaps even a smaller colony or one which had better defences,he could have tried to use his influence to lure the Collectors to a planet that could have stopped the Collectors there and then (he had enough influence to get them to hit Horizon). There was no reason for the VS to actually be there at all, all that mattered was making the Collectors believe that they were there.

[Anihilus]

Guys, we all know that Cerberus is evil! Let's take a look at their track record...

Imprisoning kids to try and create the perfect biotic (Subject Zero aka Jack)
Succeeding in the above while at the same time scaring Jack and making her (in her words) a all powerful b

Experimenting with Rachni and Thorian creepers
Murder of Alliance officer, Rear Admiral Kahoku

Exploiting the Alliance's Ascension program to drug Gillian Grayson to succeed where Subject Zero in their eyes failed.

Turning Paul Grayson into a avatar for the Reapers.

I think I got them all...

[Dave666]

Anihilus wrote...

Guys, we all know that Cerberus is evil! Let's take a look at their track record...

Imprisoning kids to try and create the perfect biotic (Subject Zero aka Jack)
Succeeding in the above while at the same time scaring Jack and making her (in her words) a all powerful b

Experimenting with Rachni and Thorian creepers
Murder of Alliance officer, Rear Admiral Kahoku

Exploiting the Alliance's Ascension program to drug Gillian Grayson to succeed where Subject Zero in their eyes failed.

Turning Paul Grayson into a avatar for the Reapers.

I think I got them all...

You forgot:

Unleashing Thresher Maws on two Alliance units, one of them was Shepards (Sole Survivor) the other was the unit that Kahoku sent to investigate Armistan Banes(who miraculously dissapeared and was never heard from again).

Torturing the only other survivor of Shepards unit that survived that horrific Thresher Maw attack by injecting him with Thresher Maw acid, repeatedly.

Several Asassinations, including the pope.

Almost creating a Technological Apocolypse, (Project Overlord), had Shepard not stopped it then all computers and electronics in the entire galaxy (well everything linked to the extranet anyway) would have gone haywire.

[DPSSOC]

Dave666 wrote...
I might also add that I highly doubt that any of the children who were murdered by Cerberus at Teltin actually 'volunteered' for that fate.  I believe that a fair few of them were slaves bought from the Batarians.

Child:  Woop!  I'm free! This nice man has got me away from those evil slavers!

Cerberus operative: *grins and rubs hands*  Come with me child.

Child:  Ahhh!!! Stop hurting me!  No! Please I don't want to fight and kill the other children!  Please! Stop sticking needles in me!


Sure, very acceptable behaviour.

What did it produce again?  One powerful Biotic who is dying.

That's what we know.  We have no idea what, if any, technologies and techniques for enhancing biotics were passed on to the Alliance are now in every day use.  That's what people sometimes forget about Cerberus experiments that go wrong, we're never given any indication of what went right and what it's present application is.  Obviously the project was producing results of some kind otherwise their funding would have been cut (this is what Archer was worried about with Overlord).

Also we're all dying some of us are just more efficient about it than others, welcome to the human condition.

Dave666 wrote...
Why did they not simply train all of those poor Biotic Children to work in concert?  I'm fairly sure that twenty Biotics all focusing their abilities on the same spot would be several orders of magnitude stronger than Jack on her own.

Time.  Experiments to enhance and advance humanity's position are up against one monstrous hurtle, we exist in competition with races that have at least a thousand years on us.  These races have shown that they don't really take issue with genocide so being a rising power isn't somewhere you want to stay long.  If we want to avoid being crushed by the Council races we need to close that gap now which means we need research that get's results fast.

Example: How effective are current technologies and techniques in dealing with a Thresher attack?  Now we could run simulations and weapon and armor tests and go through it all in a lab with no harm done to any living thing.  This would likely takes months if not years.  The alternative is to release test subjects in a real world scenario.  What tests and simulations would take months to determine can be showcased in a matter of hours.

It's brutal, it's messy, and it's unethical but it's fast.  So yes they could have trained the kids to work in concert but it's much faster to apply experimental drug 37 to test subects, observe effects, apply to control subject if succesful to gauge cumulative effect, ship findings to HQ, and HQ feeds the proven product to the Alliance for refinement and use on biotics at large.

Yes Cerberus is evil, yes they're unethical, but the important question is; are they necessary?  Given the temperment and technology of the Council races can we afford to play catch-up the slow way?

[Someone With Mass]

DPSSOC wrote...
Yes Cerberus is evil, yes they're unethical, but the important question is; are they necessary?  Given the temperment and technology of the Council races can we afford to play catch-up the slow way?

Short answer? No. 

Why? I haven't really seen any species besides the eventual batarian group out there that are fiercely in competition with humanity in an effort to overthrow it.

There's no cold war. 

Sure, we need to experiment to advance, but there are so many better ways to do it. Take for example that guy who was injected with thresher acid. The same result could be met if they'd just poured some acid on a piece of standard issue armor. Doesn't really take a rocket scientist to realize that if the acid is going through the armor with ease, it'll hurt the wearer.

Politics? I don't care what Cerberus is doing to help on that front, as long as they're not starting wars over it.

Point is: Cerberus is doing so many unnecessary things for no good reason.