1342 réponses à ce sujet

[lolwut666]

Obviously, only Shepard is up to the task of single-handily infiltrating a high-security batarian prision and extracting Kenson without getting killed in the process.

[pointtech86]

Siansonea II wrote...

Wow, fractious thread. Somebody get me up to speed, what does this have to do with how evil Cerberus is? I missed the connection from Cerberus to talking about Hackett. I was all ready to lay down some keystrokes about how much it sucked that my Shepard got stuck running errands for TIM with only the most token objection, when I found the discussion centering around Arrival. Are people saying that Hackett wasn't being honest with Shepard? I think Hackett was pretty straightforward, and I doubt he knew the extent of what was happening with Kenson. She was indoctrinated, after all, I'm sure she was deceiving Hackett just as much as she tried to deceive Shepard.

Read from page 38 on.  It's discussing why Cerberus is no more 'evil' than the Alliance.

[Siansonea]

pointtech86 wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

pointtech86 wrote...

I just told you. He believed her intel, therefore he believed there was an imminent Reaper invasion. Why would Hackett tell Shepard this intel if his only mission was to rescue this scientist, his friend, from a Batarian prison?

If the Alliance was involved in helping destroy the mass relay it would cause a war. Shepard is the perfect scapegoat for this kind of thing, he's out of the Alliance, he works for Cerberus, his image has been tarnished not personally by Hackett but by the whole Alliance that controls statements and public relations.

Could it be that Hackett didn't know all the details yet? That he didn't know how to assess the problem? That he didn't know that the destruction of a relay would be involved?

And honestly. I don't care if Shepard takes the fall, because we all know what will happen during the trial anyway. Oh, and by the way, I feel a lot better knowing I have Hackett by my side than Cerberus, because at least he understands and tries to help Shepard, while The Incompetent Man is just sitting in his chair, smoking and drinking all day like another very stale and cliché Bond-villain.

What details didn't he know?  The science team had to get the money from somewhere to buy up all the thrusters needed to push a small planet fast enough into a mass relay to destroy it.  You're also implying that Hackett is extremely incompetent because he would waste his time worrying about rescuing his friend over stopping a Reaper invasion.

When has Cerberus not helped Shepard?  They gave you your life back, your ship, your squadmates, your weapons, armor, and most importantly.  Your free will.  TIM could have easily let Miranda put that control chip in your brain but he chose not to.  Because he knew how important it was to keep you as consistent as possible with your old self.  Cerberus has never betrayed me to the point that it ever risked my life.  Obviously TIM could have informed you about the Collector ship, but that is a perspective argument anyway.

So, terrorists pamper a super soldier they intend to use to further their own ends, and that's proof of, what?

If Hackett knowingly recruited Shepard for this mission just to use him as a scapegoat for destroying the Batarian system then yes he has betrayed you, and can't be trusted.

That's a pretty big IF. In fact, that's an IF so big, I don't think it will fit in a reply window.

[Someone With Mass]

pointtech86 wrote...

What details didn't he know?  The science team had to get the money from somewhere to buy up all the thrusters needed to push a small planet fast enough into a mass relay to destroy it.  You're also implying that Hackett is extremely incompetent because he would waste his time worrying about rescuing his friend over stopping a Reaper invasion.

Yes, because she had more information about the Reaper invasion. That's why he was both worried over her information and her as a friend.

Oh, and I brought most of those things aboard myself. Cerberus just provided me with a ship. Their so called "intel" was so useless, they couldn't even tell that Liara wasn't working with the Shadow Broker, but to take down the Shadow Broker. Oh, and way to lead me into a trap, and then wave it aside with the lamest excuse I've ever heard in my life. "Telling you could've tipped off the Collectors."



I'm going to kill him just for that.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 05 mai 2011 - 03:24 .

[pointtech86]

lolwut666 wrote...

Obviously, only Shepard is up to the task of single-handily infiltrating a high-security batarian prision and extracting Kenson without getting killed in the process.

In case you didn't notice that prison wasn't exactly 'high-security'.  Only 7 guards  in between the entrance and the interrogation room?  No Heavy Mechs or Heavy classes?  4 engineers and the rest grunts when you make your escape?  Not exactly tight security.

[lolwut666]

Cerberus could do all those things for Shepard because they answer to no government.

The Alliance couldn't help Shepard because they gotta deal with politics. It's not as simple as wanting to.

And to think that an organization with an history like Cerberus's would do all those things simply out of kindess is being short-sighted. It seems obvious that the purpose is to gain Shepard's trust so he'll be easier to manipulate.

But that you'd believe Cerberus so blindly out of these things just goes to shows that their plan works.

[pointtech86]

Siansonea II wrote...

pointtech86 wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

pointtech86 wrote...

I just told you. He believed her intel, therefore he believed there was an imminent Reaper invasion. Why would Hackett tell Shepard this intel if his only mission was to rescue this scientist, his friend, from a Batarian prison?

If the Alliance was involved in helping destroy the mass relay it would cause a war. Shepard is the perfect scapegoat for this kind of thing, he's out of the Alliance, he works for Cerberus, his image has been tarnished not personally by Hackett but by the whole Alliance that controls statements and public relations.

Could it be that Hackett didn't know all the details yet? That he didn't know how to assess the problem? That he didn't know that the destruction of a relay would be involved?

And honestly. I don't care if Shepard takes the fall, because we all know what will happen during the trial anyway. Oh, and by the way, I feel a lot better knowing I have Hackett by my side than Cerberus, because at least he understands and tries to help Shepard, while The Incompetent Man is just sitting in his chair, smoking and drinking all day like another very stale and cliché Bond-villain.

What details didn't he know?  The science team had to get the money from somewhere to buy up all the thrusters needed to push a small planet fast enough into a mass relay to destroy it.  You're also implying that Hackett is extremely incompetent because he would waste his time worrying about rescuing his friend over stopping a Reaper invasion.

When has Cerberus not helped Shepard?  They gave you your life back, your ship, your squadmates, your weapons, armor, and most importantly.  Your free will.  TIM could have easily let Miranda put that control chip in your brain but he chose not to.  Because he knew how important it was to keep you as consistent as possible with your old self.  Cerberus has never betrayed me to the point that it ever risked my life.  Obviously TIM could have informed you about the Collector ship, but that is a perspective argument anyway.

So, terrorists pamper a super soldier they intend to use to further their own ends, and that's proof of, what?

If Hackett knowingly recruited Shepard for this mission just to use him as a scapegoat for destroying the Batarian system then yes he has betrayed you, and can't be trusted.

That's a pretty big IF. In fact, that's an IF so big, I don't think it will fit in a reply window.

You don't know what Cerberus's long term goals with Shepard are, so you are projecting far more than I am when I just simply question the motive of Hackett contacting you to do an S&R mission, conveniently turning into the destruction of the mass relay.

[didymos1120]

pointtech86 wrote...

"Hackett will conclude by saying that he’s known her for a long time and if she says she has proof, then she has proof."

Sorry, the wiki has gotten it wrong.  Here's the actual dialogue:

"I've known her a long time. If she says she has proof, it's worth checking out."

Modifié par didymos1120, 05 mai 2011 - 03:31 .

[lolwut666]

pointtech86 wrote...

lolwut666 wrote...

Obviously, only Shepard is up to the task of single-handily infiltrating a high-security batarian prision and extracting Kenson without getting killed in the process.

In case you didn't notice that prison wasn't exactly 'high-security'.  Only 7 guards  in between the entrance and the interrogation room?  No Heavy Mechs or Heavy classes?  4 engineers and the rest grunts when you make your escape?  Not exactly tight security.

Don't confuse gameplay with storytelling.

It was a high security prision; it just didn't reflect in the gameplay because that's what the devs felt would be more appropriate.

[Siansonea]

The Alliance isn't perfect, but they're on the up-and-up, and they're a duly-appointed body that carries out the will of human government. Cerberus is self-appointed to carry out their own agenda. The Alliance saved the galaxy from Sovereign's invasion attempt, whether the galaxy knows that or not, all the while Cerberus was dinking around with rachni, Thorian creepers, and killing Admiral Kahoku. TIM talks a good game, calmly smokes while Horizon colonists are podded and primed for pumping through Reaper feeding tubes, colonists who are in that position because of TIM. TIM doesn't care how many innocents have to die or suffer to further his goals. Sounds pretty much like every other terrorist I've ever heard of.

[lolwut666]

Yeah.

Cerberus did nothing but bad things in the first game, while the Alliance fleet destroyed Sovereign.

And if Shepard had never been killed by the Collectors, he would still be with the Alliance, and Cerberus would never be anything more than terrorists.

[pointtech86]

lolwut666 wrote...

Cerberus could do all those things for Shepard because they answer to no government.

The Alliance couldn't help Shepard because they gotta deal with politics. It's not as simple as wanting to.

And to think that an organization with an history like Cerberus's would do all those things simply out of kindess is being short-sighted. It seems obvious that the purpose is to gain Shepard's trust so he'll be easier to manipulate.

But that you'd believe Cerberus so blindly out of these things just goes to shows that their plan works.

And you imply that the government didn't manipulate Shepard at all right?  The Alliance wanted to tell people it was the Geth who attacked the Citadel not Soveriegn.  They wanted to shut Shepard up so they sent him out into deep space so they wouldn't have to listen to Shepard talk about it.

Cerberus isn't to be blindly trusted, but the Alliance proved their disloyalty to Shepard when they chose to abandon him publicly and call him crazy.  Cerberus helped you out, they're doing something about the Reapers, while the Alliance play's political games, and leaves Terminus System colonies out to be abducted, and ignore the millions of people missing.

And I'm supposed to condemn Cerberus over the Alliance?  While Cerberus is no white angel, the Alliance has the death of millions on it's hands.  Just by ignoring the problem they are the greater sinners in this argument.  Cerberus did something about it, that alone makes them more honorable than the entire Alliance.

Siansonea II:  The Alliance did nothing and allowed millions of colonists be abducted while Cerberus created a scenario much preferable to simply letting it happen and watch an entire random colony get abducted.  

Can it be said that they didn't know about the Reapers until after Shepard destroyed Soveriegn?  We only saw the bad things they did because those were the missions we were given.  If something was going right there would be no need for a mission.  

I don't understand how bringing up the fact that if he didn't die he'd be with the Alliance, relates to anything.

[Someone With Mass]

I like to think that the Alliance and the Council suppressed Shepard's voice about the reveal of the Reapers to not cause massive panic.

[Siansonea]

pointtech86 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

pointtech86 wrote...

*snip*
What details didn't he know?  The science team had to get the money from somewhere to buy up all the thrusters needed to push a small planet fast enough into a mass relay to destroy it.  You're also implying that Hackett is extremely incompetent because he would waste his time worrying about rescuing his friend over stopping a Reaper invasion.

When has Cerberus not helped Shepard?  They gave you your life back, your ship, your squadmates, your weapons, armor, and most importantly.  Your free will.  TIM could have easily let Miranda put that control chip in your brain but he chose not to.  Because he knew how important it was to keep you as consistent as possible with your old self.  Cerberus has never betrayed me to the point that it ever risked my life.  Obviously TIM could have informed you about the Collector ship, but that is a perspective argument anyway.

So, terrorists pamper a super soldier they intend to use to further their own ends, and that's proof of, what?

If Hackett knowingly recruited Shepard for this mission just to use him as a scapegoat for destroying the Batarian system then yes he has betrayed you, and can't be trusted.

That's a pretty big IF. In fact, that's an IF so big, I don't think it will fit in a reply window.

You don't know what Cerberus's long term goals with Shepard are, so you are projecting far more than I am when I just simply question the motive of Hackett contacting you to do an S&R mission, conveniently turning into the destruction of the mass relay.

Well, after a long history of atrocities, it's certainly possible that Cerberus' long term goal has always been to open a veterinary clinic on the Citadel to stop the spread of scale itch among varren. "You don't know what their long term goals are" is not good enough. I don't have to know what they intend to do. All I need to look at is what they HAVE done. I think it's safe to assume that they'll continue to do stuff like that there. I don't like what they've don't, therefore I don't want to help them do anything else, I don't care how many bunnies and kittens they tell me I'll be saving in the process.

So, this is all about Hackett supposedly in a conspiracy to commit mass murder against the batarians? Wow, that's giving Hackett a LOT of credit for knowing the way everything would play out in Arrival. Jailed Kenson must have been giving him some sweet intel, even though she was, you know, jailed and, you know, indoctrinated. Oh, and it's awfully good of Hackett to put the entire responsibility for destroying the Alpha Relay on Shepard's shoulders with literally NO backup. Since Hackett knew everything, that means he knew the timeline, was receiving progress reports from Kenson, etc., after the Object Rho encounter, and so on. So, why exactly would Hackett go along with that? Seems like Hackett is as much operating on misinformation as Shepard was.

Seriously, let's not point to Arrival as any source of anything but "here's the state of things when Mass Effect 3 starts". That mission is full of logic fail. Where is the Normandy during the time Shepard is gallavanting around looking for Kenson, being bonked on the head by Kenson, being unconscious for two days, playing with LOKI mechs, and chatting up Harbinger? Why didn't Hackett call up Kaidan/Ashley and have him/her come after Shepard after so long without communication from Shepard? Why didn't Hackett freakin' call Tali or Garrus? Or even Liara? Frankly, I don't see any evidence that Hackett knew that the mission would end in the destruction of the batarian colony, or that Hackett was convinced of an imminent Reaper invasion that would necessitate the destruction of a mass relay—a feat heretofore thought impossible, or at least really, really difficult. Not to mention the ridiculous idea that you can put attitude jets on a small planet and steer it toward a collision with a mass relay. The distances involved are huge, and it's clear that the asteroid isn't moving at anywhere near lightspeed. Did the batarians simply not NOTICE a planet moving toward their local mass relay?

[Moiaussi]

Someone With Mass wrote...

I like to think that the Alliance and the Council suppressed Shepard's voice about the reveal of the Reapers to not cause massive panic.

In fact Shepard is told this outright by hackett after an interview with one of the reporters in ME1

[pointtech86]

Siansonea II wrote...

Well, after a long history of atrocities, it's certainly possible that Cerberus' long term goal has always been to open a veterinary clinic on the Citadel to stop the spread of scale itch among varren. "You don't know what their long term goals are" is not good enough. I don't have to know what they intend to do. All I need to look at is what they HAVE done. I think it's safe to assume that they'll continue to do stuff like that there. I don't like what they've don't, therefore I don't want to help them do anything else, I don't care how many bunnies and kittens they tell me I'll be saving in the process.

So, this is all about Hackett supposedly in a conspiracy to commit mass murder against the batarians? Wow, that's giving Hackett a LOT of credit for knowing the way everything would play out in Arrival. Jailed Kenson must have been giving him some sweet intel, even though she was, you know, jailed and, you know, indoctrinated. Oh, and it's awfully good of Hackett to put the entire responsibility for destroying the Alpha Relay on Shepard's shoulders with literally NO backup. Since Hackett knew everything, that means he knew the timeline, was receiving progress reports from Kenson, etc., after the Object Rho encounter, and so on. So, why exactly would Hackett go along with that? Seems like Hackett is as much operating on misinformation as Shepard was.

Seriously, let's not point to Arrival as any source of anything but "here's the state of things when Mass Effect 3 starts". That mission is full of logic fail. Where is the Normandy during the time Shepard is gallavanting around looking for Kenson, being bonked on the head by Kenson, being unconscious for two days, playing with LOKI mechs, and chatting up Harbinger? Why didn't Hackett call up Kaidan/Ashley and have him/her come after Shepard after so long without communication from Shepard? Why didn't Hackett freakin' call Tali or Garrus? Or even Liara? Frankly, I don't see any evidence that Hackett knew that the mission would end in the destruction of the batarian colony, or that Hackett was convinced of an imminent Reaper invasion that would necessitate the destruction of a mass relay—a feat heretofore thought impossible, or at least really, really difficult. Not to mention the ridiculous idea that you can put attitude jets on a small planet and steer it toward a collision with a mass relay. The distances involved are huge, and it's clear that the asteroid isn't moving at anywhere near lightspeed. Did the batarians simply not NOTICE a planet moving toward their local mass relay?

And you choose to ignore the fact that the Alliance completely abandoned and ignored the many missing colonies.  I didn't realize that just because it's a government sanctioned agency that sucks money out of taxpayers to ignore actual problems, was automatically given a clear of all wrong-doing.

Arrival should be a source since it creates the setting for ME3 after all.  Ignoring the plot and time holes of the mission, I have no doubt that the Alliance and Hackett set Shepard up to this position in the trial.  They found out about the invasion, they need to prevent it, but keep people happy so they get their old kooky Shepard out to be a terrorist like everyone knows he is, now that he's with Cerberus.  Then put him on trial to complete the image.  It fits so perfectly I'm surprised everybody else doesn't see it.

Kenson had no problem telling Shepard what they were going to do to the mass relay right up until they were getting visions of the reaper invasion.  I have no doubt if Kenson told Hackett about the invasion, she also talked to him about the plan to take out the mass relay.  Just like with Shepard.

[Siansonea]

pointtech86 wrote...

lolwut666 wrote...

Cerberus could do all those things for Shepard because they answer to no government.

The Alliance couldn't help Shepard because they gotta deal with politics. It's not as simple as wanting to.

And to think that an organization with an history like Cerberus's would do all those things simply out of kindess is being short-sighted. It seems obvious that the purpose is to gain Shepard's trust so he'll be easier to manipulate.

But that you'd believe Cerberus so blindly out of these things just goes to shows that their plan works.

And you imply that the government didn't manipulate Shepard at all right?  The Alliance wanted to tell people it was the Geth who attacked the Citadel not Soveriegn.  They wanted to shut Shepard up so they sent him out into deep space so they wouldn't have to listen to Shepard talk about it.

Cerberus isn't to be blindly trusted, but the Alliance proved their disloyalty to Shepard when they chose to abandon him publicly and call him crazy.  Cerberus helped you out, they're doing something about the Reapers, while the Alliance play's political games, and leaves Terminus System colonies out to be abducted, and ignore the millions of people missing.

And I'm supposed to condemn Cerberus over the Alliance?  While Cerberus is no white angel, the Alliance has the death of millions on it's hands.  Just by ignoring the problem they are the greater sinners in this argument.  Cerberus did something about it, that alone makes them more honorable than the entire Alliance.

Siansonea II:  The Alliance did nothing and allowed millions of colonists be abducted while Cerberus created a scenario much preferable to simply letting it happen and watch an entire random colony get abducted.  

Can it be said that they didn't know about the Reapers until after Shepard destroyed Soveriegn?  We only saw the bad things they did because those were the missions we were given.  If something was going right there would be no need for a mission.  

I don't understand how bringing up the fact that if he didn't die he'd be with the Alliance, relates to anything.

Funny how we're supposed to judge the Alliance based on their skepticism regarding the testimony of one person: Shepard. Sure, they witnessed a giant ship attack the Citadel, along with a bunch of geth ships. Sure, Sovereign had a different paint job than the geth ships, but it didn't have "I Am An Ancient Machine Bent On Galactic Destruction" painted on the outside in giant letters. All that is known of the Reapers is what Shepard, Liara and Shiala know from direct or inderect contact with the Prothean Beacons on Eden Prime and Virmire, and what Shepard and his two squadmates hear from Vigil, who goes kaput right afterward. That's a big pill to swallow. I don't blame the Alliance from looking toward focusing on the geth threat, since that was much more tangible, and much more of a threat the Alliance could manage.

And raking the Alliance over the coals for 'doing nothing' for the colonies out in the Traverse is rather silly too. Those colonies are in the Traverse because they wanted to be away from Alliance influence and Alliance help. The Alliance actually didn't have jurisdiction over those colonies. And last I heard, the crystal ball at Alliance headquarters was broken, otherwise they could predict when and where the whoever-it-is-who's-kidnapping-colonists would strike next. I blame the crystal ball maintenance people, myself. So the Alliance decided to send one of their operatives to a colony to help them prepare for whatever might be happening, even though that colony DIDN'T WANT ALLIANCE HELP. But there's Alenko/Williams trying to help those people in spite of their own isolationist tendencies. So what does Cerberus do? Paint a huge red target on Horizon, because he has intel the Alliance doesn't: That it's the Collectors who are targeting human colonies, and that they have a special interest in Commander Shepard and people connected to Shepard, like Alenko/Williams. One text message on an unsecured server later, and the Collectors pounce on Horizon and start squirreling away humans, neat as you please.

How are Cerberus the good guys here?

[Siansonea]

pointtech86 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Well, after a long history of atrocities, it's certainly possible that Cerberus' long term goal has always been to open a veterinary clinic on the Citadel to stop the spread of scale itch among varren. "You don't know what their long term goals are" is not good enough. I don't have to know what they intend to do. All I need to look at is what they HAVE done. I think it's safe to assume that they'll continue to do stuff like that there. I don't like what they've don't, therefore I don't want to help them do anything else, I don't care how many bunnies and kittens they tell me I'll be saving in the process.

So, this is all about Hackett supposedly in a conspiracy to commit mass murder against the batarians? Wow, that's giving Hackett a LOT of credit for knowing the way everything would play out in Arrival. Jailed Kenson must have been giving him some sweet intel, even though she was, you know, jailed and, you know, indoctrinated. Oh, and it's awfully good of Hackett to put the entire responsibility for destroying the Alpha Relay on Shepard's shoulders with literally NO backup. Since Hackett knew everything, that means he knew the timeline, was receiving progress reports from Kenson, etc., after the Object Rho encounter, and so on. So, why exactly would Hackett go along with that? Seems like Hackett is as much operating on misinformation as Shepard was.

Seriously, let's not point to Arrival as any source of anything but "here's the state of things when Mass Effect 3 starts". That mission is full of logic fail. Where is the Normandy during the time Shepard is gallavanting around looking for Kenson, being bonked on the head by Kenson, being unconscious for two days, playing with LOKI mechs, and chatting up Harbinger? Why didn't Hackett call up Kaidan/Ashley and have him/her come after Shepard after so long without communication from Shepard? Why didn't Hackett freakin' call Tali or Garrus? Or even Liara? Frankly, I don't see any evidence that Hackett knew that the mission would end in the destruction of the batarian colony, or that Hackett was convinced of an imminent Reaper invasion that would necessitate the destruction of a mass relay—a feat heretofore thought impossible, or at least really, really difficult. Not to mention the ridiculous idea that you can put attitude jets on a small planet and steer it toward a collision with a mass relay. The distances involved are huge, and it's clear that the asteroid isn't moving at anywhere near lightspeed. Did the batarians simply not NOTICE a planet moving toward their local mass relay?

And you choose to ignore the fact that the Alliance completely abandoned and ignored the many missing colonies.  I didn't realize that just because it's a government sanctioned agency that sucks money out of taxpayers to ignore actual problems, was automatically given a clear of all wrong-doing.

Arrival should be a source since it creates the setting for ME3 after all.  Ignoring the plot and time holes of the mission, I have no doubt that the Alliance and Hackett set Shepard up to this position in the trial.  They found out about the invasion, they need to prevent it, but keep people happy so they get their old kooky Shepard out to be a terrorist like everyone knows he is, now that he's with Cerberus.  Then put him on trial to complete the image.  It fits so perfectly I'm surprised everybody else doesn't see it.

Kenson had no problem telling Shepard what they were going to do to the mass relay right up until they were getting visions of the reaper invasion.  I have no doubt if Kenson told Hackett about the invasion, she also talked to him about the plan to take out the mass relay.  Just like with Shepard.

What exactly could the Alliance have done in the Traverse? What exactly could they have done to prevent colony abductions when they had no idea who was behind it? Somebody DID know who was behind it, and that person was the Illusive Man. Instead of using that intel to save colonies—the noble goal the Alliance is being accused of ignoring—he used the intel to let a colony be used as bait to bring the Collectors out in the open. And for what, exactly? What did he hope to get out of Horizon other than for Shepard and Company to be on the scene at the same time? Sure, it's a guaranteed firefight, but there's no guarantee of any gain in advantage against the Collectors. Was it just to prove that the Collectors totally heart Shepard, and will alter their colony-scooping plans anytime a friend of Shepard's shows up? Tell that to Lilith as she's being pureéd into Reaper Chow.

Modifié par Siansonea II, 05 mai 2011 - 04:17 .

[Dave666]

Siansonea II wrote...

pointtech86 wrote...

lolwut666 wrote...

Cerberus could do all those things for Shepard because they answer to no government.

The Alliance couldn't help Shepard because they gotta deal with politics. It's not as simple as wanting to.

And to think that an organization with an history like Cerberus's would do all those things simply out of kindess is being short-sighted. It seems obvious that the purpose is to gain Shepard's trust so he'll be easier to manipulate.

But that you'd believe Cerberus so blindly out of these things just goes to shows that their plan works.

And you imply that the government didn't manipulate Shepard at all right?  The Alliance wanted to tell people it was the Geth who attacked the Citadel not Soveriegn.  They wanted to shut Shepard up so they sent him out into deep space so they wouldn't have to listen to Shepard talk about it.

Cerberus isn't to be blindly trusted, but the Alliance proved their disloyalty to Shepard when they chose to abandon him publicly and call him crazy.  Cerberus helped you out, they're doing something about the Reapers, while the Alliance play's political games, and leaves Terminus System colonies out to be abducted, and ignore the millions of people missing.

And I'm supposed to condemn Cerberus over the Alliance?  While Cerberus is no white angel, the Alliance has the death of millions on it's hands.  Just by ignoring the problem they are the greater sinners in this argument.  Cerberus did something about it, that alone makes them more honorable than the entire Alliance.

Siansonea II:  The Alliance did nothing and allowed millions of colonists be abducted while Cerberus created a scenario much preferable to simply letting it happen and watch an entire random colony get abducted.  

Can it be said that they didn't know about the Reapers until after Shepard destroyed Soveriegn?  We only saw the bad things they did because those were the missions we were given.  If something was going right there would be no need for a mission.  

I don't understand how bringing up the fact that if he didn't die he'd be with the Alliance, relates to anything.

Funny how we're supposed to judge the Alliance based on their skepticism regarding the testimony of one person: Shepard. Sure, they witnessed a giant ship attack the Citadel, along with a bunch of geth ships. Sure, Sovereign had a different paint job than the geth ships, but it didn't have "I Am An Ancient Machine Bent On Galactic Destruction" painted on the outside in giant letters. All that is known of the Reapers is what Shepard, Liara and Shiala know from direct or inderect contact with the Prothean Beacons on Eden Prime and Virmire, and what Shepard and his two squadmates hear from Vigil, who goes kaput right afterward. That's a big pill to swallow. I don't blame the Alliance from looking toward focusing on the geth threat, since that was much more tangible, and much more of a threat the Alliance could manage.

And raking the Alliance over the coals for 'doing nothing' for the colonies out in the Traverse is rather silly too. Those colonies are in the Traverse because they wanted to be away from Alliance influence and Alliance help. The Alliance actually didn't have jurisdiction over those colonies. And last I heard, the crystal ball at Alliance headquarters was broken, otherwise they could predict when and where the whoever-it-is-who's-kidnapping-colonists would strike next. I blame the crystal ball maintenance people, myself. So the Alliance decided to send one of their operatives to a colony to help them prepare for whatever might be happening, even though that colony DIDN'T WANT ALLIANCE HELP. But there's Alenko/Williams trying to help those people in spite of their own isolationist tendencies. So what does Cerberus do? Paint a huge red target on Horizon, because he has intel the Alliance doesn't: That it's the Collectors who are targeting human colonies, and that they have a special interest in Commander Shepard and people connected to Shepard, like Alenko/Williams. One text message on an unsecured server later, and the Collectors pounce on Horizon and start squirreling away humans, neat as you please.

How are Cerberus the good guys here?

Thank you!  Thats what I tried to say earlier.

Here's what they could have done:

Cerberus buys a dozen or so AA Towers (or equivalent planetary defences), quickly, but quietly rushes them out to a colonly likely to get hit, installs them but hides them, then 'leaks' info that Commander Shepard or one of his associates are on that planet.  The Collectors arrive...concealed defences are unleashed...boom.

[pointtech86]

Siansonea II wrote...

Funny how we're supposed to judge the Alliance based on their skepticism regarding the testimony of one person: Shepard. Sure, they witnessed a giant ship attack the Citadel, along with a bunch of geth ships. Sure, Sovereign had a different paint job than the geth ships, but it didn't have "I Am An Ancient Machine Bent On Galactic Destruction" painted on the outside in giant letters. All that is known of the Reapers is what Shepard, Liara and Shiala know from direct or inderect contact with the Prothean Beacons on Eden Prime and Virmire, and what Shepard and his two squadmates hear from Vigil, who goes kaput right afterward. That's a big pill to swallow. I don't blame the Alliance from looking toward focusing on the geth threat, since that was much more tangible, and much more of a threat the Alliance could manage.

And raking the Alliance over the coals for 'doing nothing' for the colonies out in the Traverse is rather silly too. Those colonies are in the Traverse because they wanted to be away from Alliance influence and Alliance help. The Alliance actually didn't have jurisdiction over those colonies. And last I heard, the crystal ball at Alliance headquarters was broken, otherwise they could predict when and where the whoever-it-is-who's-kidnapping-colonists would strike next. I blame the crystal ball maintenance people, myself. So the Alliance decided to send one of their operatives to a colony to help them prepare for whatever might be happening, even though that colony DIDN'T WANT ALLIANCE HELP. But there's Alenko/Williams trying to help those people in spite of their own isolationist tendencies. So what does Cerberus do? Paint a huge red target on Horizon, because he has intel the Alliance doesn't: That it's the Collectors who are targeting human colonies, and that they have a special interest in Commander Shepard and people connected to Shepard, like Alenko/Williams. One text message on an unsecured server later, and the Collectors pounce on Horizon and start squirreling away humans, neat as you please.

How are Cerberus the good guys here?

Is the Alliance the face of humanity or not?  Apparently you take the attitude of if it doesn't affect the people you like, then you don't care.  This is a crisis of galactic importance and you want to ignore the fact that these colonies are disappearing like they deserved it, or it isn't that big of a problem?  What kind of human being would take that attitude other than the one you are trying to paint Cerberus into?  If it wasn't for TIM that colony would have eventually been hit and ALL of it's citizens taken and turned into reaper goo.  Obviously the Alliance wasn't into protecting humanity.  They were more interested in gaining favor with the other council races.  Otherwise they might have had the same intel as Cerberus that it was the Collectors instead of dumbly assuming it was Cerberus.

Modifié par pointtech86, 05 mai 2011 - 04:27 .

[pointtech86]

Stupid double post.

Modifié par pointtech86, 05 mai 2011 - 04:27 .

[didymos1120]

pointtech86 wrote...


Is the Alliance the face of humanity or not?  *snip*

The. Alliance. Has. No. Jurisdiction. Or. Military. Outposts. In. The. Terminus. They can't just go in there in force.  They can't send regular patrols.  That's difficult enough even with the colonies they actually do administer.   Read the Codex. Especially the "Humanity and the Systems Alliance" section and the "Terminus" entry. It explains a lot about how things actually work (as opposed to how you think they do).

Modifié par didymos1120, 05 mai 2011 - 04:31 .

[Siansonea]

pointtech86 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Funny how we're supposed to judge the Alliance based on their skepticism regarding the testimony of one person: Shepard. Sure, they witnessed a giant ship attack the Citadel, along with a bunch of geth ships. Sure, Sovereign had a different paint job than the geth ships, but it didn't have "I Am An Ancient Machine Bent On Galactic Destruction" painted on the outside in giant letters. All that is known of the Reapers is what Shepard, Liara and Shiala know from direct or inderect contact with the Prothean Beacons on Eden Prime and Virmire, and what Shepard and his two squadmates hear from Vigil, who goes kaput right afterward. That's a big pill to swallow. I don't blame the Alliance from looking toward focusing on the geth threat, since that was much more tangible, and much more of a threat the Alliance could manage.

And raking the Alliance over the coals for 'doing nothing' for the colonies out in the Traverse is rather silly too. Those colonies are in the Traverse because they wanted to be away from Alliance influence and Alliance help. The Alliance actually didn't have jurisdiction over those colonies. And last I heard, the crystal ball at Alliance headquarters was broken, otherwise they could predict when and where the whoever-it-is-who's-kidnapping-colonists would strike next. I blame the crystal ball maintenance people, myself. So the Alliance decided to send one of their operatives to a colony to help them prepare for whatever might be happening, even though that colony DIDN'T WANT ALLIANCE HELP. But there's Alenko/Williams trying to help those people in spite of their own isolationist tendencies. So what does Cerberus do? Paint a huge red target on Horizon, because he has intel the Alliance doesn't: That it's the Collectors who are targeting human colonies, and that they have a special interest in Commander Shepard and people connected to Shepard, like Alenko/Williams. One text message on an unsecured server later, and the Collectors pounce on Horizon and start squirreling away humans, neat as you please.

How are Cerberus the good guys here?

Is the Alliance the face of humanity or not?  Apparently you take the attitude of if it doesn't affect the people you like, then you don't care.  This is a crisis of galactic importance and you want to ignore the fact that these colonies are disappearing like they deserved it, or it isn't that big of a problem?  What kind of human being would take that attitude other than the one you are trying to paint Cerberus into?  If it wasn't for TIM that colony would have eventually been hit and ALL of it's citizens taken and turned into reaper goo.  Obviously the Alliance wasn't into protecting humanity.  They were more interested in gaining favor with the other council races.  Otherwise they might have had the same intel as Cerberus that it was the Collectors instead of dumbly assuming it was Cerberus.

How do you know Horizon was on the Collectors' list of targets? Did you see the original list and not tell the rest of us? It's my understanding that there are LOTS of human colonies.

I'm still not exactly sure what you feel the Alliance could have done. They didn't even know it was the Collectors doing the abductions. You're too busy trying to make this about philosophy, while ignoring the fact that there was nothing the Alliance could have been doing that they weren't doing. The Alliance doesn't have hundreds of cruisers lying around, and thousands of personnel to man those cruisers, to hang around each and every human colony out in the Traverse, while at the same time maintaining security in human colonies in Citadel-controlled space. Or do they?

Cerberus, on the other hand, knows who the enemy is. Cerberus could have done something with that info, rather than just roll the dice with the lives of every man woman and child on Horizon as chips on the table, and let the winner take it all. The Alliance tried to do what they could, even though the colonies DIDN'T WANT THEIR HELP. Cerberus had information that could have been used to mount a coordinated attack to possibly take out the Collector ship. But I guess TIM really just wanted to field-test Mordin's counter-measure or something.

Modifié par Siansonea II, 05 mai 2011 - 04:36 .

[pointtech86]

didymos1120 wrote...

pointtech86 wrote...


Is the Alliance the face of humanity or not?  *snip*

The. Alliance. Has. No. Jurisdiction. Or. Military. Outposts. In. The. Terminus. They can't just go in there in force.  They can't send regular patrols.  That's difficult enough even with the colonies they actually do administer.   Read the Codex. Especially the "Humanity and the Systems Alliance" section and the "Terminus" entry. It explains a lot about how things actually work (as opposed to how you think they do).

Then you would simply ignore the problem as well?  Millions of people gone and all you would have to say is "oh well, it's not like we have jurisdiction over there.  Maybe you secessionists should listen to us and not challenge our supreme authority over all things humanity related, then maybe you wouldn't deserve to be abducted like you have."

Missing colonies I think would call for some pretty extreme measures don't you think?  It's almost like... humanity is under attack?  No, it couldn't be.  They don't fall within the Systems Alliance boundary so it must be something different...

[lolwut666]

@pointtech86

The human colonists in the Terminus didn't want Alliance help; that's why they left Council space in the first place.

The Alliance has no authority in the Terminus, so they can't just do as they please there.

Cerberus answers to no one, and therefore can do whatever they want.

And the Alliance actually did try to help them by sending Ash/Kaidan to help install a cannon in Horizon. I assume they sent other officers to do the same in other colonies. And you saw how the colonists were hostile towards the Alliance, even when they were just trying to help.

They don't want help, so what do you expect the Alliance to do for them?