1342 réponses à ce sujet

[Siansonea]

pointtech86 wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

pointtech86 wrote...


Is the Alliance the face of humanity or not?  *snip*

The. Alliance. Has. No. Jurisdiction. Or. Military. Outposts. In. The. Terminus. They can't just go in there in force.  They can't send regular patrols.  That's difficult enough even with the colonies they actually do administer.   Read the Codex. Especially the "Humanity and the Systems Alliance" section and the "Terminus" entry. It explains a lot about how things actually work (as opposed to how you think they do).

Then you would simply ignore the problem as well?  Millions of people gone and all you would have to say is "oh well, it's not like we have jurisdiction over there.  Maybe you secessionists should listen to us and not challenge our supreme authority over all things humanity related, then maybe you wouldn't deserve to be abducted like you have."

Missing colonies I think would call for some pretty extreme measures don't you think?  It's almost like... humanity is under attack?  No, it couldn't be.  They don't fall within the Systems Alliance boundary so it must be something different...

Like what? Start on all-out war with the Terminus Systems? Throw away all of their ships and personnel before even finding out who they're fighting? Brilliant military strategy, kudos.

Modifié par Siansonea II, 05 mai 2011 - 04:48 .

[didymos1120]

Siansonea II wrote...

Like what? Start on all-out war with the Terminus Systems? Throw away all of their ships and personnel before even finding out who they're fighting? Brilliant military strategy, kudos.

pointtech also seems to think the Alliance exists in a political vacuum and can just go off on grand military ventures whenever the hell it wants, and wherever the hell it wants.  I mean, it's not like there's a parliament or anything that the military has to answer to...oh, right.

Modifié par didymos1120, 05 mai 2011 - 04:53 .

[Siansonea]

Another thing: You seem to be basing your attitude toward the Alliance on the fact that they're doing 'nothing' to stop the human colonies from disappearing. The fact is, you don't know what they're doing, all you know is what Shepard knows. You only find out about Alenko/Williams being on Horizon when you run into them after the fight is over. TIM knew they'd be there, and didn't tell Shepard. Seems to me like TIM is playing his cards pretty close to his chest. Anderson also knew that Alenko/Williams was on a mission to investigate the abductions, and didn't tell Shepard. But that I understand, because if someone I knew to be dead showed up on my doorstep with glowing facial scars and terrorist pals, I think I'd be quite reluctant to divulge intel on classified missions, especially since my Long Dead Pal isn't even employed with my organization anymore, but rather happily traipsing about with his terrorist pals in their terrorist ship with a big fat terrorist logo on it. Yeah, I think I might just say hi, have some coffee and scones, and then send them on their merry way.

[pointtech86]

I'm tired. Haven't gone to sleep since two days ago.

The Alliance should tell the colonies the truth about the Reapers and how they can't help protect them if they keep staying so resistant. Nobody knows the politics of these planets other than they don't trust the SA. Bioware implying that the colonists didn't want help from the Alliance is unrealistic and simply fills a stereotype they wanted to condemn. But I suppose that's Bioware's fault not the SA.

Still, I don't know how anyone can dispute the logic of TIM's logic for Horizon. It was in the Terminus, isolated and the Alliance had sent the VS there to help. The only reason people disagree with it is because some just don't want to agree with him on anything.

[pointtech86]

Of course the only thing you're going to respond to is the 'fact' that up to this point it's all hearsay about the Reapers. Even though most of the top people in the Alliance also believe it, though their official message is that they don't exist.

[lolwut666]

pointtech86 wrote...

I'm tired. Haven't gone to sleep since two days ago.

The Alliance should tell the colonies the truth about the Reapers and how they can't help protect them if they keep staying so resistant. Nobody knows the politics of these planets other than they don't trust the SA. Bioware implying that the colonists didn't want help from the Alliance is unrealistic and simply fills a stereotype they wanted to condemn. But I suppose that's Bioware's fault not the SA.

Still, I don't know how anyone can dispute the logic of TIM's logic for Horizon. It was in the Terminus, isolated and the Alliance had sent the VS there to help. The only reason people disagree with it is because some just don't want to agree with him on anything.

Blaming the writing because things don't go your way is lame, mmmkay.

And some people just don't agree with sacrificing the lives of innocents to accomplish an objective.

[Dave666]

pointtech86 wrote...

I'm tired. Haven't gone to sleep since two days ago.

The Alliance should tell the colonies the truth about the Reapers and how they can't help protect them if they keep staying so resistant. Nobody knows the politics of these planets other than they don't trust the SA. Bioware implying that the colonists didn't want help from the Alliance is unrealistic and simply fills a stereotype they wanted to condemn. But I suppose that's Bioware's fault not the SA.

Still, I don't know how anyone can dispute the logic of TIM's logic for Horizon. It was in the Terminus, isolated and the Alliance had sent the VS there to help. The only reason people disagree with it is because some just don't want to agree with him on anything.

Go get some rest bud, 'cause that post was a load of bolony and I'm sure you can do better. lol

Tell the colonies about the Reapers?  Tell them what exactly?  It was the Collectors attacking the colonies, not the Reapers, the Reapers are still in Dark Space at this point and very few people even believe in their existance.

As for your The Incompetent Man argument...

There were a thousand and one things that he could have done instead.

[General User]

Siansonea II wrote...
How do you know Horizon was on the Collectors' list of targets? Did you see the original list and not tell the rest of us? It's my understanding that there are LOTS of human colonies.

I'm still not exactly sure what you feel the Alliance could have done. They didn't even know it was the Collectors doing the abductions. You're too busy trying to make this about philosophy, while ignoring the fact that there was nothing the Alliance could have been doing that they weren't doing. The Alliance doesn't have hundreds of cruisers lying around, and thousands of personnel to man those cruisers, to hang around each and every human colony out in the Traverse, while at the same time maintaining security in human colonies in Citadel-controlled space. Or do they?

Cerberus, on the other hand, knows who the enemy is. Cerberus could have done something with that info, rather than just roll the dice with the lives of every man woman and child on Horizon as chips on the table, and let the winner take it all. The Alliance tried to do what they could, even though the colonies DIDN'T WANT THEIR HELP. Cerberus had information that could have been used to mount a coordinated attack to possibly take out the Collector ship. But I guess TIM really just wanted to field-test Mordin's counter-measure or something.

The thing about Horizon is the winner (whom I contend to be Cerberus) DIDN’T take all. A large portion of the colony was taken, and a large portion was saved.

Could more “Horizon-ians” have been saved (not that that should have been the prime concern in the first place) if TIM had included Shepard in the initial planning phases? I say somewhere between “maybe” and “probably.”   

But when seen in light the Harbinger’s subsequent actions, ie the shifting of his focus from attacking human colonies to tracking down and defeating the Normandy and Co., it is hard to see The Battle of Horizon as anything other than the turning point of the entire Collector Campaign. 

As such it is literally impossible to say exactly how many lives were saved because of Horizon, only that the number is quite large, and quite worth it.


As for why the Normandy herself (let alone other Cerberus assets) didn’t join in with a little fire support, umm…  well… you see…
…
…
Ok bye!

[didymos1120]

pointtech86 wrote...

 Bioware implying that the colonists didn't want help from the Alliance is unrealistic and simply fills a stereotype they wanted to condemn.

They didn't condemn a thing. They simply showed us another side to the human expansion into the galaxy. And people rushing off into ungoverned territories who don't want to get tangled up with and/or get away from a government is "unrealistic". Why, that's never happened ever!  Where in the hell are you getting this stuff from? 

Modifié par didymos1120, 05 mai 2011 - 05:10 .

[didymos1120]

pointtech86 wrote...

Even though most of the top people in the Alliance also believe it, though their official message is that they don't exist.

Hackett and Anderson count as "most"?  Because that's the extent of our knowledge on the subject of who believes in the Reaper threat in the upper echelons of the SA. 

[pointtech86]

I'm going to bed. If the simple concept of risk vs. reward is too complicated for you people to understand than all my posts are is wasted bandwidth, energy, and my time.

If I have time later on I'll catch up, and hopefully have better answers.  Right now I've hit a wall.

Modifié par pointtech86, 05 mai 2011 - 05:14 .

[didymos1120]

General User wrote...


As for why the Normandy herself (let alone other Cerberus assets) didn’t join in with a little fire support, umm…  well… you see…
…
…
Ok bye!

Well, the Normandy has either the Thanix or a more standard Mass Accelerator.  You don't just go firing either at a planet.  They're not made for fire support.  They're made for blowing the sh*t out of heavily shielded ships.  There's also the fact that doing so probably would have meant the Collector cruiser opening up with its weapons. Possibly on the rest of the colony, and very probably on the Normandy.  Either way, not good.  Sure maybe we blow the Collector ship up... oh crap: it's still parked on the planet. Talk about collateral damage.  It also risks the Normandy being damaged or destroyed for what's only a potential short-term gain  (recall: this is all happening at at time when they have no clue what resources the Collectors actually have to hand).

[pointtech86]

didymos1120 wrote...

pointtech86 wrote...

Even though most of the top people in the Alliance also believe it, though their official message is that they don't exist.

Hackett and Anderson count as "most"?  Because that's the extent of our knowledge on the subject of who believes in the Reaper threat in the upper echelons of the SA. 

That's my fault.  I misread a quote, and you were right about the quote earlier about Hackett talking about the 'proof' Kenson found.

[Siansonea]

pointtech86 wrote...

I'm going to bed. If the simple concept of risk vs. reward is too complicated for you people to understand than all my posts are is wasted bandwidth, energy, and my time.

If I have time later on I'll catch up, and hopefully have better answers.  Right now I've hit a wall.

I think we all understand "risk vs. reward" just fine. If anything, you seem to be sketchy on the details. I fail to see how throwing Alliance resources into the Traverse, risking a full-scale war with the Terminus Systems, without any knowledge of WHO THEY ARE ACTUALLY FIGHTING is a really good 'risk vs. reward' scenario. "Hey, we started a war, but we might have prevented some colonies from being abducted by...somebody..."

Modifié par Siansonea II, 05 mai 2011 - 05:35 .

[General User]

didymos1120 wrote...

General User wrote...


As for why the Normandy herself (let alone other Cerberus assets) didn’t join in with a little fire support, umm…  well… you see…
…
…
Ok bye!

Well, the Normandy has either the Thanix or a more standard Mass Accelerator.  You don't just go firing either at a planet.  They're not made for fire support.  They're made for blowing the sh*t out of heavily shielded ships.  There's also the fact that doing so probably would have meant the Collector cruiser opening up with its weapons. Possibly on the rest of the colony, and very probably on the Normandy.  Either way, not good.  Sure maybe we blow the Collector ship up... oh crap: it's still parked on the planet. Talk about collateral damage.  It also risks the Normandy being damaged or destroyed for what's only a potential short-term gain  (recall: this is all happening at at time when they have no clue what resources the Collectors actually have to hand).

You make some good points, I still don’t think there’s any physical reason the Normandy couldn’t have joined in, given how the battle between those ships ultimately ended up.  Given the CC's limited maneuverability (being parked and all) I'd go so far as to say the Normandy had a decided advantage on Horizon. 

But, upon reflection, I have to say that I can see how there was a supreme strategic reason NOT to destroy the Collector Cruiser on Horizon, namely acquiring the Nav Data to breach the Ω4.

Modifié par General User, 05 mai 2011 - 05:40 .

[Siansonea]

General User wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
How do you know Horizon was on the Collectors' list of targets? Did you see the original list and not tell the rest of us? It's my understanding that there are LOTS of human colonies.

I'm still not exactly sure what you feel the Alliance could have done. They didn't even know it was the Collectors doing the abductions. You're too busy trying to make this about philosophy, while ignoring the fact that there was nothing the Alliance could have been doing that they weren't doing. The Alliance doesn't have hundreds of cruisers lying around, and thousands of personnel to man those cruisers, to hang around each and every human colony out in the Traverse, while at the same time maintaining security in human colonies in Citadel-controlled space. Or do they?

Cerberus, on the other hand, knows who the enemy is. Cerberus could have done something with that info, rather than just roll the dice with the lives of every man woman and child on Horizon as chips on the table, and let the winner take it all. The Alliance tried to do what they could, even though the colonies DIDN'T WANT THEIR HELP. Cerberus had information that could have been used to mount a coordinated attack to possibly take out the Collector ship. But I guess TIM really just wanted to field-test Mordin's counter-measure or something.

The thing about Horizon is the winner (whom I contend to be Cerberus) DIDN’T take all. A large portion of the colony was taken, and a large portion was saved.

You noticed that too, did you?  One might almost think the welfare of the colony wasn't a priority for the Illusive Man. And yet, our fellow forumite believes that Cerberus is some kind of heroic organization even though they created the situation in the first place. And that the Alliance, operating on a critical lack of information, should have at heart the best interests of colonies who have taken great pains to get away from the Alliance and actively reject their help/interference. And that the Alliance should somehow be omniscient, even though the one person who does know more than Shepard, the Illusive Man, clearly does not hold the safety of those human colonies above all. He'll gamble their lives away without even a clear idea of what he'll gain in the process. There's that pesky 'risk vs. reward' equation again...

Could more “Horizon-ians” have been saved (not that that should have been the prime concern in the first place) if TIM had included Shepard in the initial planning phases? I say somewhere between “maybe” and “probably.”   

But when seen in light the Harbinger’s subsequent actions, ie the shifting of his focus from attacking human colonies to tracking down and defeating the Normandy and Co., it is hard to see The Battle of Horizon as anything other than the turning point of the entire Collector Campaign.

I agree. But you can't use the result to justify the rightness of thinking. If time wasn't a one-way axis, if we could know the outcome beforehand, that would be a different story. The Illusive Man made a gamble, and it mostly paid off, but that doesn't mean it was the responsible or "good" thing to make the gamble. Especially since no one else was privy to the information that the Illusive Man was using to make the gamble in the first place.

As such it is literally impossible to say exactly how many lives were saved because of Horizon, only that the number is quite large, and quite worth it.


As for why the Normandy herself (let alone other Cerberus assets) didn’t join in with a little fire support, umm…  well… you see…
…
…
Ok bye!

They could have fired on the Collector ship, if nothing else to get them to leave the planet (why does a giant spaceship "land" on a planet anyway? How weird is that?) The Normandy had no reason to believe that the Collector ship would sacrifice their own troops with a retributive strike before leaving the planet's surface. The Normandy could have played cat-and-mouse with the Collector ship to some extent. After all, isn't the important thing in this situation s SHEPARD? Shepard wasn't on the Normandy, so if the Normandy takes damage or is even destroyed, as long as Shepard survives, then it's a good thing. Shepard was incommunicado with the Normandy for quite a while on Horizon, were they just having coffee, hoping that Shepard wasn't dead in a prefab building somewhere?

Modifié par Siansonea II, 05 mai 2011 - 05:48 .

[Siansonea]

lolwut666 wrote...

pointtech86 wrote...

I'm tired. Haven't gone to sleep since two days ago.

The Alliance should tell the colonies the truth about the Reapers and how they can't help protect them if they keep staying so resistant. Nobody knows the politics of these planets other than they don't trust the SA. Bioware implying that the colonists didn't want help from the Alliance is unrealistic and simply fills a stereotype they wanted to condemn. But I suppose that's Bioware's fault not the SA.

Still, I don't know how anyone can dispute the logic of TIM's logic for Horizon. It was in the Terminus, isolated and the Alliance had sent the VS there to help. The only reason people disagree with it is because some just don't want to agree with him on anything.

Blaming the writing because things don't go your way is lame, mmmkay.

And some people just don't agree with sacrificing the lives of innocents to accomplish an objective.

Quoted for truth.

[didymos1120]

General User wrote...

You make some good points, I still don’t think there’s any physical reason the Normandy couldn’t have joined in, given how the battle between those ships ultimately ended up.  Given the CC's limited maneuverability (being parked and all) I'd go so far as to say the Normandy had a decided advantage on Horizon. 

Yeah, but think of what would have happened if that thing blew up on the ground. The shockwave alone would probably wipe out the rest of the people on the ground, Shep included.  I mean, the Normandy can't exactly fire at it "lightly". 

[didymos1120]

Siansonea II wrote...

 (why does a giant spaceship "land" on a planet anyway? How weird is that?)

Not very given that they were packing people onto the thing.  How many round-trips to orbit and back would it have taken to transport ~600,000 people?  That's just ridiculously impractical, even with a small fleet of shuttles or whatever.

Modifié par didymos1120, 05 mai 2011 - 05:59 .

[didymos1120]

Siansonea II wrote...
"Hey, we started a war, but we might have prevented some colonies from being abducted by...somebody..."

And of course, this is what would happen shortly thereafter:

"Hey did you hear?"

"What?"

"Lost another colony."

"So, why are we out here again?"

Modifié par didymos1120, 05 mai 2011 - 05:58 .

[Siansonea]

didymos1120 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

 (why does a giant spaceship "land" on a planet anyway? How weird is that?)

Not very given that they were packing people onto the thing.  How many round-trips to orbit and back would it have taken to transport ~600,000 people?  That's just ridiculously impractical, even with a small fleet of shuttles or whatever.

Well, they had no reason to expect any resistance, the seeker swarms immobilize everyone, and no one could possibly know they're coming. And they would need some kind of shuttles anyway, I doubt the Collector ship lands daintily with a nice handy elevator that goes all the way to the bottom. They'd need to be shuttled from the vicinity of the landing site onto the ship. I dunno, I just always thought they did it because it 'looks cool', which is almost never a good reason to override logic, in my opinion.

[lolwut666]

They don't need shuttles because they can fly and they are physically stronger than humans.

However, they can't fly into orbit, so landing the ship was more practical.

[General User]

Siansonea II wrote...
You noticed that too, did you?  One might almost think the welfare of the colony wasn't a priority for the Illusive Man. And yet, our fellow forumite believes that Cerberus is some kind of heroic organization even though they created the situation in the first place. And that the Alliance, operating on a critical lack of information, should have at heart the best interests of colonies who have taken great pains to get away from the Alliance and actively reject their help/interference. And that the Alliance should somehow be omniscient, even though the one person who does know more than Shepard, the Illusive Man, clearly does not hold the safety of those human colonies above all. He'll gamble their lives away without even a clear idea of what he'll gain in the process. There's that pesky 'risk vs. reward' equation again...

I can’t answer for what’s in the mind of others. 

So "let me be clear", I personally think the Alliance was doing everything it could reasonably be expected to do vis-a-vis the Collector attacks. And that doing things the Alliance either can’t or won’t (for whatever reason) do, is one of the main reasons Cerberus exists in the first place.

I agree. But you can't use the result to justify the rightness of thinking. If time wasn't a one-way axis, if we could know the outcome beforehand, that would be a different story. The Illusive Man made a gamble, and it mostly paid off, but that doesn't mean it was the responsible or "good" thing to make the gamble. Especially since no one else was privy to the information that the Illusive Man was using to make the gamble in the first place.

Well… you kinda can in a way. What I mean by that is: when you’re making decisions at that level, every decision you make is a gamble to one extent or another. When the arena at hand is a war then the consequences are bound to be lives, including the lives of bystanders and non-combatants. That’s not really a mark against Cerberus or TIM as much as it is the nature of making decisions as a leader during wartime.

So you make your gamble and try your best, knowing full well that lives hang in the balance, and knowing also that history will be the one to decide whether you were ultimately right or wrong. So, in that vein, I think it bears acknowledging that the Battle of Horizon was the turning point of the Campaign, and did save far more lives than it cost.

It is my contention that, at the time, the Collectors were hitting colony after colony and they had no reason to stop, giving them that reason was TIM’s primary motivation in setting up the Horizon op. in the first place. May I ask what you believe TIM’s motivation in setting up the Horizon op. was?

Modifié par General User, 05 mai 2011 - 07:35 .

[Moiaussi]

didymos1120 wrote...

Well, the Normandy has either the Thanix or a more standard Mass Accelerator.  You don't just go firing either at a planet.  They're not made for fire support.  They're made for blowing the sh*t out of heavily shielded ships.  There's also the fact that doing so probably would have meant the Collector cruiser opening up with its weapons. Possibly on the rest of the colony, and very probably on the Normandy.  Either way, not good.  Sure maybe we blow the Collector ship up... oh crap: it's still parked on the planet. Talk about collateral damage.  It also risks the Normandy being damaged or destroyed for what's only a potential short-term gain  (recall: this is all happening at at time when they have no clue what resources the Collectors actually have to hand).

Actually mass accellerators are just as well designed for bombardment as any other projectile based system. You are accelerating a rock at high speed on a set trajectory.

You might want to tone down the settings to reduce air resistance, but it is a safe bet that the Normandy's firing computers could easily plot needed trajectories even without EDI. That is pretty basic stuff..

The Collector cruiser openning up is academic, since it would be hit first and have less to open up with, and would be a sitting duck on the ground whereas the Normandy would be a small moving target that could even be out of line of sight before he Cruiser got a chance to fire. We know for an absolute fact that an un-upgraded Normandy can take on and defeat the Cruiser head to head, and it would have been much better conditions than that.

Your point regarding collateral damage is legitimate. If the Collector vessel has an anti-matter core if could potentially have taken out the entire planet, but that is also true if the ground cannon had destroyed the cruiser. At the very least though, there is no reason the Normandy shouldn't have shot the Cruiser as it broke the atmosphere before it could disengage. It was already wounded and still under fire from the Guardian system.

[Moiaussi]

didymos1120 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Like what? Start on all-out war with the Terminus Systems? Throw away all of their ships and personnel before even finding out who they're fighting? Brilliant military strategy, kudos.

pointtech also seems to think the Alliance exists in a political vacuum and can just go off on grand military ventures whenever the hell it wants, and wherever the hell it wants.  I mean, it's not like there's a parliament or anything that the military has to answer to...oh, right.

The same Terminus system that was beaten back by a small garrison and a civilian population? The same Terminus systems that never show even a hint at a fleet in ME2, not to mention a complete lack of concern that someone else is raiding the colonies they normally prey on, but much much more effectively? They would all rise up at any sign of Alliance or Council activity, yet completely ignore much more agressive Collector activity?

Not to mention that it must be really hard to be a pirate with anti-Geth patrols flying around everywhere. Speaking of the Geth, isn't the Veil adjacant to the Terminus systems? Are the Alliance and Council and for that matter terminus pirates all ignoring (and being ignored by) Heretics operating out of the Terminus region? Or are Terminus humans not organic enough for Geth to raid?