1342 réponses à ce sujet

[Siansonea]

General User wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
You noticed that too, did you?  One might almost think the welfare of the colony wasn't a priority for the Illusive Man. And yet, our fellow forumite believes that Cerberus is some kind of heroic organization even though they created the situation in the first place. And that the Alliance, operating on a critical lack of information, should have at heart the best interests of colonies who have taken great pains to get away from the Alliance and actively reject their help/interference. And that the Alliance should somehow be omniscient, even though the one person who does know more than Shepard, the Illusive Man, clearly does not hold the safety of those human colonies above all. He'll gamble their lives away without even a clear idea of what he'll gain in the process. There's that pesky 'risk vs. reward' equation again...

I can’t answer for what’s in the mind of others. 

So "let me be clear", I personally think the Alliance was doing everything it could reasonably be expected to do vis-a-vis the Collector attacks. And that doing things the Alliance either can’t or won’t (for whatever reason) do, is one of the main reasons Cerberus exists in the first place.

I agree. But you can't use the result to justify the rightness of thinking. If time wasn't a one-way axis, if we could know the outcome beforehand, that would be a different story. The Illusive Man made a gamble, and it mostly paid off, but that doesn't mean it was the responsible or "good" thing to make the gamble. Especially since no one else was privy to the information that the Illusive Man was using to make the gamble in the first place.

Well… you kinda can in a way. What I mean by that is: when you’re making big decisions, every decision you make is a gamble to one extent or another. When the arena at hand is a war then the consequences are bound to be lives, including the lives of bystanders and non-combatants. That’s not really a mark against Cerberus or TIM as much as it is the nature of making decisions as a leader during wartime.

So you make your gamble and try your best, knowing full well that lives hang in the balance, and knowing also that history will be the one to decide whether you were ultimately right or wrong. So, in that vein, I think it bears acknowledging that the Battle of Horizon was the turning point of the Campaign, and did save far more lives than it cost.

It is my contention that, at the time, the Collectors were hitting colony after colony and they had no reason to stop, giving them that reason was TIM’s primary motivation in setting up the Horizon op. in the first place. May I ask what you believe TIM’s motivation in setting up the Horizon op. was?

Who knows what TIM's motives are? My whole point is you can't expect to overlook Cerberus' past actions just because some of their more recent actions have good outcomes. You can't give them a pass on that Akuze business, the murder of Admiral Kahoku, etc., just because they made a move that benefitted humanity. They may be doing what the Alliance can't, but they're also operating in a theater in which the Alliance has no authority. Cerberus has a lot more mobility and freedom than the Alliance, so while they may be able accomplish things the Alliance can't, that doesn't infer that Cerberus now has some kind of moral high ground. Furthermore, Cerberus has even more freedom to work within the Traverse than the Alliance, since they are not a legally-recognized human authority, giving them yet another advantage over the Alliance in this situation.

The premise I am questioning is the idea that the Alliance is somehow derelict in their duty for not invading the Traverse because human colonies are going missing. The Alliance was quietly gathering information and trying to do some good through agents like Kaidan Alenko/Ashley Williams—information that TIM actually had and could have shared somehow. Of course, that doesn't make the Traverse any more off-limits to the Alliance.

[Siansonea]

Moiaussi wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Like what? Start on all-out war with the Terminus Systems? Throw away all of their ships and personnel before even finding out who they're fighting? Brilliant military strategy, kudos.

pointtech also seems to think the Alliance exists in a political vacuum and can just go off on grand military ventures whenever the hell it wants, and wherever the hell it wants.  I mean, it's not like there's a parliament or anything that the military has to answer to...oh, right.

The same Terminus system that was beaten back by a small garrison and a civilian population? The same Terminus systems that never show even a hint at a fleet in ME2, not to mention a complete lack of concern that someone else is raiding the colonies they normally prey on, but much much more effectively? They would all rise up at any sign of Alliance or Council activity, yet completely ignore much more agressive Collector activity?

Not to mention that it must be really hard to be a pirate with anti-Geth patrols flying around everywhere. Speaking of the Geth, isn't the Veil adjacant to the Terminus systems? Are the Alliance and Council and for that matter terminus pirates all ignoring (and being ignored by) Heretics operating out of the Terminus region? Or are Terminus humans not organic enough for Geth to raid?

To be fair, just because Shepard doesn't see huge fleets in Terminus space doesn't mean they aren't there. We only see what Shepard sees in the games for the most part. A single stealth ship zipping in and out of Terminus-controlled star systems isn't necessarily going to incite large-scale military action from Terminus power players.

If the Terminus Systems was not a formidable opponent, I doubt the Council would have thought twice about sending a few cruisers to patrol the vicinity of human colonies after the attack on Eden Prime. But even the Council didn't want to tangle with them, so they suggested more subtle means. You can argue that the Council is weak, that they're cowards, etc., but the fact remains that the powers that be in the Terminus Systems are clearly not a weak group.

Modifié par Siansonea II, 05 mai 2011 - 07:58 .

[squee913]

pointtech86 wrote...

 Bioware implying that the colonists didn't want help from the Alliance is unrealistic and simply fills a stereotype they wanted to condemn. But I suppose that's Bioware's fault not the SA.

So people moving away from the central government to run things the way they want to and getting angry when the government sticks it's nose into their business is unrealistic? I think there was an instance just like that in history. They even fought a revolution over the whole matter. Might have heard of it... It was called the American Revolution.

pointtech86 wrote...
Still, I don't know how anyone can dispute the logic of TIM's logic for Horizon. It was in the Terminus, isolated and the Alliance had sent the VS there to help. The only reason people disagree with it is because some just don't want to agree with him on anything.

The problem is not luring the collectors into a trap, so we know where they are going to hit. The problem was luring the collectors to an unarmed, defenseless colony. (Even if TIM knew about the turrets, he would also know they were not working) Someone, who actually cared about the colonies more than their own motives would have had units on the ground waiting for the collectors. They would have made sure the turrets were working, and THEN lure the collectors in. You don’t wait for the collectors to hit before you start doing anything about it.  TIM did not really care about that. He just wanted to see if he was right about the collectors wanting Shep.  

As for the idea that the Alliance was ignoring the abducted colonies:

Several months ago North Korea Shelled a South Korean Island, killing a lot of innocent people. South Korea considered military retaliation, but wisely chose against it. Does this mean they did not care about the island, or ignored it? No. It simply means they realized that military action would have triggered a war that would have cost many times the amount of lives that had already been lost.

Same applies here. The alliance did everything they could for people who
A: Were out of their jurisdiction
B: Did not want their help
C: lived in an area that would have sparked a large war if the alliance brought a military presence in. 

[General User]

Siansonea II wrote...
Who knows what TIM's motives are? My whole point is you can't expect to overlook Cerberus' past actions just because some of their more recent actions have good outcomes. You can't give them a pass on that Akuze business, the murder of Admiral Kahoku, etc., just because they made a move that benefitted humanity.

The old saying goes that “What is done in the dark shall be brought to the Light.” But it is also written that “to all things there is a season.” There will come a time for the settling of accounts, but that time is not now, not with the doom of our kind upon us. So...not overlooking, not exactly anyway, more like be willing to work with despite.

Siansonea II wrote...
They may be doing what the Alliance can't, but they're also operating in a theater in which the Alliance has no authority. Cerberus has a lot more mobility and freedom than the Alliance, so while they may be able accomplish things the Alliance can't, that doesn't infer that Cerberus now has some kind of moral high ground. Furthermore, Cerberus has even more freedom to work within the Traverse than the Alliance, since they are not a legally-recognized human authority, giving them yet another advantage over the Alliance in this situation.

I agree on all points.

Siansonea II wrote...
The premise I am questioning is the idea that the Alliance is somehow derelict in their duty for not invading the Traverse because human colonies are going missing. The Alliance was quietly gathering information and trying to do some good through agents like Kaidan Alenko/Ashley Williams—information that TIM actually had and could have shared somehow. Of course, that doesn't make the Traverse any more off-limits to the Alliance.

I wholly agree, the Alliance was not derelict in their duty. I further agree that, strictly speaking, the Alliance has no “duty” to independent colonies to begin with; their duty extends no further than evaluating a potential threat to their own security. Everything else is gravy, as they say.
 

[Moiaussi]

Siansonea II wrote...

To be fair, just because Shepard doesn't see huge fleets in Terminus space doesn't mean they aren't there. We only see what Shepard sees in the games for the most part. A single stealth ship zipping in and out of Terminus-controlled star systems isn't necessarily going to incite large-scale military action from Terminus power players.

While this much is true, we still really don't get the sense of scale hinted at in ME1. Suddenly instead of pirates being their own factions, we find out they are nothing more than the same mercenary groups we encountered in ME1, who are considered to be operating completely legally within Alliance space. The top three such groups combined can't field enough people to take down a single squad on Omega, and even when it is clear that they have insufficient troops, their leaders inexplicably sacrifice themselves on the theory they can do what their troops can't.

If the Terminus Systems was not a formidable opponent, I doubt the Council would have thought twice about sending a few cruisers to patrol the vicinity of human colonies after the attack on Eden Prime. But even the Council didn't want to tangle with them, so they suggested more subtle means. You can argue that the Council is weak, that they're cowards, etc., but the fact remains that the powers that be in the Terminus Systems are clearly not a weak group.

Council history indicates that the Council have become exceedingly paranoid of war since the Rachni war. They talk big but back down every time. Despite the fact that the terminus fleet was no match for the Alliance fleet in the Skyllian Blitz, they are convinced that war with the Terminus systems would be 'long and costly.' That was just the Alliance fleet fending them off easily. The ground war was another matter, but it was a small colony with only a light garrison. And it still won.

And that was at a time when the Batarians were much more active, before they pulled back.

The other reason for the Council to not take them seriously is pretty obvious. The Council don't have much in the way of colonies in the area and accepting the raids is likely, for the time being, cheaper both economicly and politicly than going to war.

[squee913]

Moiaussi wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

To be fair, just because Shepard doesn't see huge fleets in Terminus space doesn't mean they aren't there. We only see what Shepard sees in the games for the most part. A single stealth ship zipping in and out of Terminus-controlled star systems isn't necessarily going to incite large-scale military action from Terminus power players.

While this much is true, we still really don't get the sense of scale hinted at in ME1. Suddenly instead of pirates being their own factions, we find out they are nothing more than the same mercenary groups we encountered in ME1, who are considered to be operating completely legally within Alliance space. The top three such groups combined can't field enough people to take down a single squad on Omega, and even when it is clear that they have insufficient troops, their leaders inexplicably sacrifice themselves on the theory they can do what their troops can't.

Don't mistake the current forces of the mercenary groups on omega for the total strength of each group. Omega is only one operation. None of the Mercenary groups brought their full numbers to bear on Garrus. Just he full number of their forces ON Omega. And you would be surprised how effect a well trained squad in a fortified position can do. Back in Germany, when I used to play Op For (Oppositional Forces- or "the bad guys") in the army I was once given orders to defend a stair well that led up to the second floor of a building. I took out 14 guys and had to surrender because I ran out of ammo. This was not due to any real skill on my part, but a good kill zone and poorly trained troops trying to get me. (much like what Garrus had)

Moiaussi wrote...

Council history indicates that the Council have become exceedingly paranoid of war since the Rachni war. They talk big but back down every time. Despite the fact that the terminus fleet was no match for the Alliance fleet in the Skyllian Blitz, they are convinced that war with the Terminus systems would be 'long and costly.' That was just the Alliance fleet fending them off easily. The ground war was another matter, but it was a small colony with only a light garrison. And it still won.

And that was at a time when the Batarians were much more active, before they pulled back.

The other reason for the Council to not take them seriously is pretty obvious. The Council don't have much in the way of colonies in the area and accepting the raids is likely, for the time being, cheaper both economicly and politicly than going to war.

As for the Skillian Blitz, that was an isolated attack involving only a part of Batarian forces. It was not the combined strength of the Terminus systems. Even if the Counsel is afraid of a fight, the Alliance would not be. The fact that they are hesitant to go to war with the terminus, says something.

[008Zulu]

pointtech86 wrote...

Really?  Then why is it that she had no problem telling Shepard that they planned to destroy the mass relay until the Reaper devise showed Shepard the vision?  Why is it that they were simply a button push away, and the head scientist decides to go on a stroll and conveniently gets captured at that point?

She needed Shepard to get a vision from the the device to start the process of indoctrination. As for her telling Shepard the plan, that was the original intention, but they were unable to do it because the Reapers had influence over them. As for her convenient stroll, the Batarians knew someone was in their system and were jamming transmissions, likely she tried to get to a point to send a transmission in the clear.

[008Zulu]

Siansonea II wrote...

Wow, fractious thread. Somebody get me up to speed, what does this have to do with how evil Cerberus is? I missed the connection from Cerberus to talking about Hackett. I was all ready to lay down some keystrokes about how much it sucked that my Shepard got stuck running errands for TIM with only the most token objection, when I found the discussion centering around Arrival. Are people saying that Hackett wasn't being honest with Shepard? I think Hackett was pretty straightforward, and I doubt he knew the extent of what was happening with Kenson. She was indoctrinated, after all, I'm sure she was deceiving Hackett just as much as she tried to deceive Shepard.

Apparently TIM sending you on clandestine missions with very little intel is ok. But when Hackett does it, its a war crime.

[008Zulu]

TIM likes intercepting and rerouting communications, feeding false reports. The Alliance only knew of the attacks in the Terminus systems when or if Cerberus wanted them to know. Cerberus "scientists" go in and check out the situation, write up their reports and then TIM re-sends the colonies distress call.

[DPSSOC]

Siansonea II wrote...

The Alliance isn't perfect, but they're on the up-and-up, and they're a duly-appointed body that carries out the will of human government. Cerberus is self-appointed to carry out their own agenda.

To be fair, if ME1 origins of Cerberus hold true (do they or is ME2 an official retcon?), Cerberus was appointed by the Alliance to do what they do until the Alliance wasn't quite comfortable with it anymore.  Despite the Alliance not having the stomach for what Cerberus was doing they were still doing what the Alliance made them to do.  It's like Torfan, whoever the Butcher of Torfan is (Shepard or unnamed other) the Alliance trained them to kill and kill well; Torfan was just them doing what they were trained to do but going a little bit further than the Alliance intended.  This is why it is important to maintain specific wording of instructions, because you cannot hold somebody to the spirit of an order only the letter.

Siansonea II wrote...

pointtech86 wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

pointtech86 wrote...
Is the Alliance the face of humanity or not?  *snip*

The. Alliance. Has. No. Jurisdiction. Or. Military. Outposts. In. The. Terminus. They can't just go in there in force.  They can't send regular patrols.  That's difficult enough even with the colonies they actually do administer.   Read the Codex. Especially the "Humanity and the Systems Alliance" section and the "Terminus" entry. It explains a lot about how things actually work (as opposed to how you think they do).

Then you would simply ignore the problem as well?  Millions of people gone and all you would have to say is "oh well, it's not like we have jurisdiction over there.  Maybe you secessionists should listen to us and not challenge our supreme authority over all things humanity related, then maybe you wouldn't deserve to be abducted like you have."

Missing colonies I think would call for some pretty extreme measures don't you think?  It's almost like... humanity is under attack?  No, it couldn't be.  They don't fall within the Systems Alliance boundary so it must be something different...

Like what? Start on all-out war with the Terminus Systems? Throw away all of their ships and personnel before even finding out who they're fighting? Brilliant military strategy, kudos.

I think most sensible people would have settled for this in terms of Alliance involvement.  I understand they can't send fleets into the Terminus without causing problems, hell they were probably taking a big risk with what they pulled on Horizon, but surely a small team using non-standard issue equipment in an indescript craft could have been sent to investigate what's going on.

Admittedly the idea that they didn't do this is merely assumption but I consider it to be well founded because the Alliance/Council don't know squat; they don't even know enough to know how much they don't know (if you follow me).  Think back to Freedom's Progress aside from the mech's there was absolutely no evidence to suggest that anything out of the ordinary had happened.  Now wouldn't the complete lack of evidence of anything happening seem to put the disappearance well beyond the abilities of slavers and even Cerberus?  I mean how much do you have to hype up the threat posed by a terrorist organization to believe that causing the disappearance of hundreds of thousands of people with absolutely no trace is just something they could pull off?  So that's my reasoning, the fact the Alliance actually believes Cerberus could pull this off strongly suggests they've not looked into the matter too deeply.

The only action we know they've taken is the Horizon outreach but I'm convinced this was isolated.  Horizon only happened because intel suggested Cerberus was behind the abductions, that Shepard was working for Cerberus, and that Horizon would be next.  I'm pretty sure if you were to eliminate Shepard and/or Cerberus from intel's suggestions Horizon would never have gotten their giant gun that can't shoot straight.  Again assumption and suposition on my part but I don't think I'm stretching too far.

[008Zulu]

DPSSOC wrote...
Horizon only happened because intel suggested Cerberus was behind the abductions, that Shepard was working for Cerberus, and that Horizon would be next.

Horizon was only next because TIM told the Collectors Ash was there. Given those events its not a far stretch to think that TIM told the Alliance that Horizon would be the next target. Makes you wonder how many colonies were true Collector targets, or if TIM wanted the Collectors in places so he would be able to collect data on them or test his theories.

[DPSSOC]

008Zulu wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
Horizon only happened because intel suggested Cerberus was behind the abductions, that Shepard was working for Cerberus, and that Horizon would be next.

Horizon was only next because TIM told the Collectors Ash was there. Given those events its not a far stretch to think that TIM told the Alliance that Horizon would be the next target. Makes you wonder how many colonies were true Collector targets, or if TIM wanted the Collectors in places so he would be able to collect data on them or test his theories.

TIM didn't tell the Collectors squat, he doesn't know enough about them to interfere with their information gathering (I doubt anyone does).  He did, and he'll admit to, leak info to the Alliance pointing them to Horizon knowing they'd send the VS after Shepard (the only member of his former crew they still control) in an effort to draw him/her out and bring him/her in peacefully.  This was all started before you met with Anderson (the classified mission they're on) and probably before you even woke up.

TIM was counting on the Collectors being on the hunt for Shepard or those connected to him/her and that the VS being on Horizon would draw them there.  So knowing where the Alliance would send the VS he could watch and wait for some sign the Collectors were attacking and send in Shepard.  If TIM could feed info directly to the Collectors there'd have been no reason to actually involve the Alliance he could just send them false intel about the VS being on Horizon.

As for setting up Collector attacks I doubt it, maybe if Collectors had shown up at Freedom's Progress after Tali's arrival I'd buy into it (TIM leaks intel to the Collectors about a Quarian on Freedoms Progress endangering whom would draw out Tali) but I don't see it.  Also TIM needed bait to bring the Collectors to Horizon how do you propose he managed similar strikes without such bait.

Add to that the fact that Jacob and Miranda both tell you they've investigated other sites and found nothing and there's no reason for them to lie to you (they could tell you they found data without telling you they drew the unknown enemy to the colony).

Saphra Deden wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
It's like Torfan, whoever the Butcher of Torfan is (Shepard or unnamed other) the Alliance trained them to kill and kill well; Torfan was just them doing what they were trained to do but going a little bit further than the Alliance can officially declare they intended.

There is no evidence of that.

Fix'd: better?

[Dean_the_Young]

008Zulu wrote...

TIM likes intercepting and rerouting communications, feeding false reports. The Alliance only knew of the attacks in the Terminus systems when or if Cerberus wanted them to know. Cerberus "scientists" go in and check out the situation, write up their reports and then TIM re-sends the colonies distress call.

Citation non-existent.

[Siansonea]

008Zulu wrote...

TIM likes intercepting and rerouting communications, feeding false reports. The Alliance only knew of the attacks in the Terminus systems when or if Cerberus wanted them to know. Cerberus "scientists" go in and check out the situation, write up their reports and then TIM re-sends the colonies distress call.

This isn't the thread for posting fan fiction.

[Siansonea]

008Zulu wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Wow, fractious thread. Somebody get me up to speed, what does this have to do with how evil Cerberus is? I missed the connection from Cerberus to talking about Hackett. I was all ready to lay down some keystrokes about how much it sucked that my Shepard got stuck running errands for TIM with only the most token objection, when I found the discussion centering around Arrival. Are people saying that Hackett wasn't being honest with Shepard? I think Hackett was pretty straightforward, and I doubt he knew the extent of what was happening with Kenson. She was indoctrinated, after all, I'm sure she was deceiving Hackett just as much as she tried to deceive Shepard.

Apparently TIM sending you on clandestine missions with very little intel is ok. But when Hackett does it, its a war crime.

What exactly did Hackett know that was withheld from Shepard? Don't forget, Hackett was asking Shepard, a friend, to do something as a personal favor, outside of the auspices of the Alliance. Hackett is not necessarily authorized to reveal Alliance secrets to Shepard. Not only that, but whatever Hackett's morality/motives/etc., he does not represent the Alliance as a whole. The same cannot be said for the Illusive Man. The buck very much stops there at TIM's desk.

[Siansonea]

Still, I don't think anything Hackett has asked Shepard to do can compare with all of the atrocities that TIM has actively administered. And Hackett doesn't represent the Alliance as a whole.

[008Zulu]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

008Zulu wrote...

TIM likes intercepting and rerouting communications, feeding false reports. The Alliance only knew of the attacks in the Terminus systems when or if Cerberus wanted them to know. Cerberus "scientists" go in and check out the situation, write up their reports and then TIM re-sends the colonies distress call.

Citation non-existent.

Siansonea II wrote...

008Zulu wrote...

TIM
likes intercepting and rerouting communications, feeding false reports.
The Alliance only knew of the attacks in the Terminus systems when or if
Cerberus wanted them to know. Cerberus "scientists" go in and check out
the situation, write up their reports and then TIM re-sends the
colonies distress call.

This isn't the thread for posting fan fiction.

Pay more attention to the Horizon briefings, TIM likes to obfuscate. He also lured the Turians, intercepting communications and sending false reports. The precedence is there. If he has done it once, you can bet he has done it before and will do it again.

Modifié par 008Zulu, 06 mai 2011 - 04:07 .

[Someone With Mass]

There's a rumor in some of the new scans of ME3 that Cerberus might be working for the Reapers.

[Siansonea]

008Zulu wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

008Zulu wrote...

TIM likes intercepting and rerouting communications, feeding false reports. The Alliance only knew of the attacks in the Terminus systems when or if Cerberus wanted them to know. Cerberus "scientists" go in and check out the situation, write up their reports and then TIM re-sends the colonies distress call.

Citation non-existent.

Siansonea II wrote...

008Zulu wrote...

TIM
likes intercepting and rerouting communications, feeding false reports.
The Alliance only knew of the attacks in the Terminus systems when or if
Cerberus wanted them to know. Cerberus "scientists" go in and check out
the situation, write up their reports and then TIM re-sends the
colonies distress call.

This isn't the thread for posting fan fiction.

Pay more attention to the Horizon briefings, TIM likes to obfuscate. He also lured the Turians, intercepting communications and sending false reports. The precedence is there. If he has done it once, you can bet he has done it before and will do it again.

Oh, okay, so because TIM is a skeevy liar dude, he's responsible for every skeevy lie ever? And every situation is automatically skeevy-lie-induced?

[Siansonea]

Someone With Mass wrote...

There's a rumor in some of the new scans of ME3 that Cerberus might be working for the Reapers.

*spittake*

If that's true, I just...I don't...I just...

Yeah, because that makes PERFECT sense.