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Cerberus is more evil than most people realise.

Débuté par 008Zulu , avril 25 2011 11:32

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#1126
Dave666
Posté 06 mai 2011 - 05:11

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Nyoka wrote...

Hmm, what's this working with the reapers stuff? In ME2, TIM talks repeatedly about how "we're at war" and "it's up to us to stop them". Why the change of mind? Why did he bring Shepard back, if not to lead the war against the reapers?


How about this?  The Incompetent Man was hoping to find something in the Collector Base that might give us a fighting chance against the Reapers.  If you let him keep it then he quickly discovers that theres nothing that can help, there's cool tech, but against the Reapers, nothing.  If you blew it up, same thing really, minus the 'some cool tech'.  Either way The Incompetent Man decides to try to strike a deal with the Reapers (never discount how much of an idiot people can be when they're desperate).

Personally I prefer the idea that The Incompetent Man isn't personally after Shepard, that Cerberus was infiltrated by indoctrinated servants and The Incompetent Man was forced to flee, leaving all of those Cerberus resources at the disposal of the Reapers who promptly set the rest of Cerberus after Shep.

#1127
Tyrannosaurus Rex
Posté 06 mai 2011 - 05:12

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Someone With Mass wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

That's definetly not the same thing.


Being forced to work with the enemy sounds like a fair description of both scenarios.


A: Cerberus is not the enemy. Granted they ain't good guys either (and they should remain this way).
B: Cerberus joining the Reapers does not sound forced. More like willing. Compare that to paragon-Shep's reason for working with Cerberus and there's a diffrence.

#1128
Guest_Nyoka_*
Posté 06 mai 2011 - 05:17

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I thought we were going to get three factions in ME3: Shepard, Cerberus, and the Reapers. Cerberus would be an early boss. Once beaten, we would use something we collected from Cerberus to fight the Reapers.

All conversations with TIM at the end of ME2 hinted a break of relations between Shepard and Cerberus, but who will attack first and why? TIM has no reason to attack Shepard, after all he resurrected her. Maybe Cerberus has something crucial to defeat the reapers, but they won't cooperate with the Council and the Alliance, so Shepard is sent to deal with the situation...with violent results.

I don't think TIM can make any kind of deal. He knows the reapers would break the deal and turn to him once the war is won.

Modifié par Nyoka, 06 mai 2011 - 05:27 .

#1129
Someone With Mass
Posté 06 mai 2011 - 05:22

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After TIM's speech about their struggle against the Reapers, I doubt they'd be working with them willingly.

#1130
Dave666
Posté 06 mai 2011 - 05:26

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Nyoka wrote...

I thought we were going to get three factions in ME3: Shepard, Cerberus, and the Reapers. Cerberus would be an early boss. Once beaten, we would use something we collected from Cerberus to fight the Reapers.

All conversations with TIM at the end of ME2 hinted a break of relations between Shepard and Cerberus, but who will attack first and why? TIM has no reason to attack Shepard, after all he resurrected her. Maybe Cerberus has something crucial to defeat the reapers, but they won't cooperate with the Council and the Alliance, so Shepard is sent to deal with the situation...with violent results.


Aslo a possibility.

Hackett:  Shepard, we've discovered the location of The Incompetent Man, we need you to sneak in and retrieve some vital intel.  Remember Shepard, this is a covert operation.

Queue the traditional explosions and mass destruction whenever Shepard is involved in 'covert operations'.

#1131
Seboist
Posté 06 mai 2011 - 05:27

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Nyoka wrote...

I thought we were going to get three factions in ME3: Shepard, Cerberus, and the Reapers. Cerberus would be an early boss. Once beaten, we would use something we collected from Cerberus to fight the Reapers.

All conversations with TIM at the end of ME2 hinted a break of relations between Shepard and Cerberus, but who will attack first and why? TIM has no reason to attack Shepard, after all he resurrected her. Maybe Cerberus has something crucial to defeat the reapers, but they won't cooperate with the Council and the Alliance, so Shepard is sent to deal with the situation...with violent results.


Both the endings have some hints of continued cooperation. In the Paragon one TIM says "Don't turn your back on me!" and Sheploo has the dialogue option "You're on my team now".

#1132
ExtremeOne
Posté 06 mai 2011 - 05:30

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Someone With Mass wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

That's definetly not the same thing.


Being forced to work with the enemy sounds like a fair description of both scenarios.

   


In Mass Effect 2 Jacob says they have changed and now in 3 they are back to being evil it makes no sense 

#1133
Someone With Mass
Posté 06 mai 2011 - 05:35

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Dave666 wrote...
Aslo a possibility.

Hackett:  Shepard, we've discovered the location of The Incompetent Man, we need you to sneak in and retrieve some vital intel.  Remember Shepard, this is a covert operation.

Queue the traditional explosions and mass destruction whenever Shepard is involved in 'covert operations'.


I bet he'd somehow blow up those suns the station loves to park by too.

#1134
Dave666
Posté 06 mai 2011 - 05:43

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ExtremeOne wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

That's definetly not the same thing.


Being forced to work with the enemy sounds like a fair description of both scenarios.

   


In Mass Effect 2 Jacob says they have changed and now in 3 they are back to being evil it makes no sense 


And you believed him?  Project Overlord says hi!

I'm not saying that Jacob deliberately lied to Shepard, but he could have been honestly misled.

@SWM, Knowing Shepard?  More than likely. lol

Modifié par Dave666, 06 mai 2011 - 05:44 .

#1135
Someone With Mass
Posté 06 mai 2011 - 05:44

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Dave666 wrote...

And you believed him?  Project Overlord says hi!

I'm not saying that Jacob deliberately lied to Shepard, but he could have been honestly misled.


Wouldn't be the first time either. :P

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 06 mai 2011 - 05:45 .

#1136
Thompson family
Posté 06 mai 2011 - 05:45

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There sure are a lot of glowing eye sympathizers on this forum.

#1137
ExtremeOne
Posté 06 mai 2011 - 05:50

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Thompson family wrote...

There sure are a lot of glowing eye sympathizers on this forum.

  


I fully support a pro human idea when it come sto aliens but in ME 3 Bioware wants ass kiss the anti Cerberus fans and paragon fans.  

#1138
Guest_Nyoka_*
Posté 06 mai 2011 - 05:55

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So there is already a topic about it.

Anyway just so we can quote it, I'm transcribing versions of both endings.

Paragon

- Shepard. You're making a habit of costing me more than time and money.
- Too many lives were lost on that base. I'm not sorry it's gone.
- The first of many lives. The technology from that base could have secured human dominance in the galaxy, against the reapers and beyond.
- Human dominance? Or just Cerberus'?
- Strength for Cerberus is strength for every human. Cerberus is humanity. I should have known you'd choke at the hard decisions. Too idealistic from the start.
- I'm not looking for your approval. Harbinger is coming, and he won't be alone. Humanity needs a leader who's looking out for them. From now on I'm doing things my way, whether you agree or not.
- Don't turn your back on me, Shepard! I made you. I brought you back from the dead.
- Joker. Lose this channel.


Renegade

- Shepard. It's a new day, and we have you to thank for our deliverance.
- We did the right thing. You don't need to try to make me feel good about it.
- Always willing to do whatever it takes. Well, it's paid off. Adopting the technology of the collector base could be the biggest advancement for human kind since the discovery of the relays. It will secure our dominance in the galaxy, against the reapers and beyond.
- Human dominance? Or just Cerberus'?
- They are one and the same. My mission has always been to promote and secure humanity's continued strength. Don't let idealism blind you. Using the base to its fullest potential is the best way to fulfill ours.
- Just remember. The Reapers are still out there. Harbinger is coming, and you can bet he won't be alone. You get selfish, you start dreaming about power, and we'll all pay the price.
- Don't presume to judge me or my methods. Cerberus will be ready to face the Reapers.
- You brought me back to lead this war and that's what I'm gonna do. If you can keep up, great. If not, I'll stop the Reapers without you.


In the paragon version, what I see is TIM and shepard end the conversation as enemies. The "don't turn your back on me" line is a last, desperate attempt, but Shepard's response is clear enough.

In the renegade version, Shepard offers an ultimatum. The relations are deteriorated, but not completely broken like in the paragon case. Still, it might be enough for TIM to start thinking he has lost Shepard. He said he will lead the war, that is, he will be the leader, the one in charge: from now on, TIM will work for Shepard, not the opposite. If TIM can't accept that, then there you have it.

About Jacob: he's a man of action. He joined Cerberus because he was tired of bureaucracy, not because ideals or motivations. In Cerberus, he gets to do stuff. But I'd say judging Cerberus as a whole, whether it has changed or not, is another thing that is way beyond his pay grade.

Modifié par Nyoka, 06 mai 2011 - 06:14 .

#1139
Thompson family
Posté 06 mai 2011 - 06:11

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^Nice sum up, Nyoka.

Note how Shep clearly tells TIM if you keep the base: "You get selfish, you start dreaming about power, and we'll all pay the price."

Bioware had to use a bombsight to drop that hint. It's a clear signal TIM will over-reach.

And if you end it Paragon-style, TIM apparently has Cerberus go Vichy on you. Once the Blitz starts, he figures all is lost and he might as well work the best deal with the Reapers he can. He gambled that you'd be able to stop the Reapers or find a way to stop them (by securing the Collector base) but failed. So the best way he can get in good graces with the Reapers is to "correct" his mistake.

If he was playing along with the Reapers all along, that's going to be tough to explain. Why sacrifice the Collectors? Why no just leave Shep dead?

You have to admit that finding a Reaper IFF just when you need it after it's been lost in space for 27 million years is awful convenient.

Modifié par Thompson family, 06 mai 2011 - 06:19 .

#1140
Guest_Nyoka_*
Posté 06 mai 2011 - 06:27

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Thompson family wrote...

You have to admit that finding a Reaper IFF just when you need it after it's been lost in space for 27 million years is awful convenient.

And it still works! Man, I want those batteries for my cellphone.

#1141
ThisIsMadness91
Posté 06 mai 2011 - 06:49

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ExtremeOne wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

That's definetly not the same thing.


Being forced to work with the enemy sounds like a fair description of both scenarios.

   


In Mass Effect 2 Jacob says they have changed and now in 3 they are back to being evil it makes no sense 


I don't think Jacob says they've changed, but that not everyone is as cruel and ruthless as other members of the organisation, such as those responsible for the thresher maw attacks or the assault on the quarian flotilla. Miranda says the same thing; that the groups Shepard has encountered are the ones that give Cerberus a bad name. Personally, though, I didn't believe them. While there are definitely those who are simply trying to ensure humanity's survival in the long run, I highly doubt that they are the true face of Cerberus, but rather members who aren't willing to go to the extremes that the Illusive Man proposes.

Honestly, while Cerberus teaming up with the Reapers is shocking, it's not exactly unbelievable. If the Illusive Man thinks that humanity can truly benefit from an allegiance with the Reapers, he'll probably do it whether or not others agree with him.

#1142
ExtremeOne
Posté 06 mai 2011 - 07:28

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ThisIsMadness91 wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

That's definetly not the same thing.


Being forced to work with the enemy sounds like a fair description of both scenarios.

   


In Mass Effect 2 Jacob says they have changed and now in 3 they are back to being evil it makes no sense 


I don't think Jacob says they've changed, but that not everyone is as cruel and ruthless as other members of the organisation, such as those responsible for the thresher maw attacks or the assault on the quarian flotilla. Miranda says the same thing; that the groups Shepard has encountered are the ones that give Cerberus a bad name. Personally, though, I didn't believe them. While there are definitely those who are simply trying to ensure humanity's survival in the long run, I highly doubt that they are the true face of Cerberus, but rather members who aren't willing to go to the extremes that the Illusive Man proposes.

Honestly, while Cerberus teaming up with the Reapers is shocking, it's not exactly unbelievable. If the Illusive Man thinks that humanity can truly benefit from an allegiance with the Reapers, he'll probably do it whether or not others agree with him.

  




Its just stupid that Bioware takes a interesting character like TIM and group like Cerberus and turns them evil for a stupid reason of indocunation .  It makes no sense but hey at least Mass Effect is nothing but a BUNCH b level sci fi games with the same ol alien invasion story that had been done to death already in sci fi movies and tv shows 
I just hope Bioware understands Mass Effect 2 will never be on the same level as Star Wars Empire Strikes Back movie . 

#1143
PsychoWARD23
Posté 06 mai 2011 - 07:36

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Oh look, it's the idiot ball.

#1144
Someone With Mass
Posté 06 mai 2011 - 07:37

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TIM's character was interesting? Wow. I must've watched too many Bond movies or something, because I thought he was tame as hell.

All I can say is: Acta non verba.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 06 mai 2011 - 07:38 .

#1145
ExtremeOne
Posté 06 mai 2011 - 07:52

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Someone With Mass wrote...

TIM's character was interesting? Wow. I must've watched too many Bond movies or something, because I thought he was tame as hell.

All I can say is: Acta non verba.

   

to each his own on that . at least story of the Mass Effect games fiound its place in sci fi and its 3rd rate b level sh*t compared to Star Wars and Star Trek 

#1146
Almostfaceman
Posté 06 mai 2011 - 07:56

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Someone With Mass wrote...

After TIM's speech about their struggle against the Reapers, I doubt they'd be working with them willingly.


I keep tellin' people - Jack is an unwitting sleeper agent for them there Reapers. 

:lol:

#1147
ThisIsMadness91
Posté 06 mai 2011 - 08:23

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ExtremeOne wrote...

Its just stupid that Bioware takes a interesting character like TIM and group like Cerberus and turns them evil for a stupid reason of indocunation .  It makes no sense but hey at least Mass Effect is nothing but a BUNCH b level sci fi games with the same ol alien invasion story that had been done to death already in sci fi movies and tv shows 
I just hope Bioware understands Mass Effect 2 will never be on the same level as Star Wars Empire Strikes Back movie . 


We don't know for sure that the Illusive Man has been indoctrinated, and I'll admit that if that turns out to be the case, it will be disappointing.

#1148
Dean_the_Young
Posté 06 mai 2011 - 08:27

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If TIM is indoctrinated, it will be disappointing because TIM's been Reaper-influenced for the better part of the last several decades without showing any signs, deterioration, or actions of a hidden Reaper agent.

If TIM has freely and genuinely joined the Reapers, it will be disappointing because ME2 only existed because of TIM working to foil Reaper strategies, and siding with them now contradicts all prior categorization and material.


If TIM has joined the Reapers in order to stab them in the back... that may be acceptable depending on the quality of delivery.

#1149
Guest_Arcian_*
Posté 06 mai 2011 - 08:43

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ExtremeOne wrote...

to each his own on that . at least story of the Mass Effect games fiound its place in sci fi and its 3rd rate b level sh*t compared to Star Wars and Star Trek 

Image IPB

#1150
General User
Posté 06 mai 2011 - 08:50

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From one of my favorite movies…


Once upon a time, in a small village in ancient China:

A boy was given a horse for his birthday.
The villagers all say: “How wonderful, you’ve got a horse!”
The Zen Master says: “We’ll see.”

A few years go by and the boy falls from his horse and breaks his leg.
The villagers all say: “How terrible, you’ve broken your leg!”
The Zen Master says: “We’ll see.”

Soon after that there is a war, all the young men in the village have to go off and fight, except for the boy due to his broken leg.
The villagers all say: “How wonderful, you don’t have to go to war!”
The Zen Master says: “We’ll see.”


So, when I hear all my fellow Mass Effect fans say how wonderful or terrible it is that we’ll be fighting Cerberus or that Cerberus is working for/with the Reapers, all a Zen Master (I’m given to understand such titles are largely self-appointed) like me  can say is: “We’ll see.”

All I can say for certain is that Bioware and the Mass Effect team have done more than enough to earn my loyalty and confidence.

Modifié par General User, 06 mai 2011 - 08:53 .

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