1342 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Cerberus isn't your goodie good-shoes buddy just because you say so. It's very clear what they'd do with that base. The galaxy is a better place without it.

Considering how little we saw of it, and the impracticality/stupidity of making a human reaper, I'm curious as to what you thought was a very clear course of action.

[Almostfaceman]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

008Zulu wrote...

None of you may like it, but TIM and Cerberus are the bad guys. Your only deluding yourself if you think otherwise.

Ye gods, someone on the internet claims to know the one true position and that all other views are deluded!

Quite convincing, really. A true master of objectivity.

Pot, meet kettle.

Hi pan. I'm afraid I don't recall when I last declared that everyone who disagreed with me on a moral position were deluded.

Of course you don't.

[DPSSOC]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Cerberus isn't your goodie good-shoes buddy just because you say so. It's very clear what they'd do with that base. The galaxy is a better place without it.

You're right.  As of ME2 Cerberus is the enemy of my enemy and I never for a moment think they're anything else.  However as the enemy of my enemy I have no issue turning a potential weapon to use against my enemy over to them when the alternative is to lose that weapon forever.  Yes that carries the risk of it being used against me because the enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my friend, but I'm willing to take that risk because, again, arming the enemy of my enemy is better than arming neither of us.

[Someone With Mass]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Considering how little we saw of it, and the impracticality/stupidity of making a human reaper, I'm curious as to what you thought was a very clear course of action.

Use it to try and gain the upper hand over other races. What else? Jesus, can't anyone that's defending Cerberus' actions think further than the length of their own dicks? Because playing slow-learned is such a childish act. It's like I have to literally spell everything out for you because you're too stupid to handle any trail of thought on your own. And the worst part is that I know you're just playing.

[Dean_the_Young]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Of course you don't.

And of course you can't be bothered to provide an example of such a case.

Or, come to that, even outright say that I have. Strange, that.


It's alright, Pan. We share the same level of respect for eachother anyway.

[Almostfaceman]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Of course you don't.

Or, come to that, even outright say that I have. Strange, that.

I said that you did in the first post. How did you miss that? Strange, that.

[Dean_the_Young]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Considering how little we saw of it, and the impracticality/stupidity of making a human reaper, I'm curious as to what you thought was a very clear course of action.

Use it to try and gain the upper hand over other races. What else? Jesus, can't anyone that's defending Cerberus' actions think further than the length of their own dicks? Because playing slow-learned is such a childish act. It's like I have to literally spell everything out for you because you're too stupid to handle any trail of thought on your own. And the worst part is that I know you're just playing.

It appears there is confusion between 'goal' and 'course of action.'

'Gain an upper hand over the other races' is a goal, but it is not a course of action. A course of action, as defined adequetly by the free dictionary for the purpose of this conversation, includes such meanings as...

1. Any sequence of activities that an individual or unit may follow.
2. A possible plan open to an individual or commander that would accomplish, or is related to the accomplishment of the mission.
3. The scheme adopted to accomplish a job or mission.

Now, the distinguishing part of a course of action is that it entials specific 'actions' to be undertaken. The goal to be reached, such as 'an upper hand', is related, but distinctly separate from the actions to reach that goal.

So, for example, if you tell someone that you want to win and they ask what your course of action is, what they are looking for is no a reptition of your desired end-state ('To win, you childish simpleton!'), but rather the steps and means by which you intend to reach that point.

Hence, if we want to take a hypothetical example, why that person might refer to a distinct course of action (making a Human Reaper) that could be deemed as one possible solution.

[Dean_the_Young]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Of course you don't.

Or, come to that, even outright say that I have. Strange, that.

I said that you did in the first post. How did you miss that? Strange, that.

Alas, you only greeted pot and kettle: what, particularly, they had in common was never identified. Presumptions of clarity? Or condemnations of delusion on all disagreers? Sadly, no examples were provided of either, and a three worded post was considered comprehensive enough for not much.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 07 mai 2011 - 02:51 .

[008Zulu]

Here's something, defeating the Collectors and destroying the based didn't save millions of lives, it didn't even save 100. The Reapers were already coming and have already arrived. Billions are going to die, defeating the Collectors hasn't changed anything.

Kidnapping children for the purpose of experimentation does not make Cerberus the only hope for the survival of the galaxy

You cant say they brought Shepard back to life either since it was likely they were responsible for his death in the first place. TIM likes using lures and the Amada system where the Normandy was shot down, was completely uninhabited. The Collectors had no reason to even be there. If you can think of why they were there, I'd like to hear it.

[Dean_the_Young]

008Zulu wrote...

Here's something, defeating the Collectors and destroying the based didn't save millions of lives, it didn't even save 100. The Reapers were already coming and have already arrived. Billions are going to die, defeating the Collectors hasn't changed anything.

This is a nihilistic argument with no logical limit. Nothing pre-Reaper defeat, or even post-Reaper defeat, can save a life: everyone is going to die anyway. Shepard didn't save anyone by beating Sovereign: the Reapers were still out there. Anyone saved from the Reapers who dies afterwards wasn't saved either.

This is an argument that only holds true by selectively extending the duration of salvation to whatever distance you desire, and breaks down the moment one accepts that salvation from one threat neither implies or requires salvation from all dangers in order to be valid. Most cultures recognize and apply distinction: distinguishing threats, distingusing incidents, distinguishing causes. No, Cerberus did not save everyone from the Reapers... but it did save people from the Collectors. Whether those people saved from the Collectors will perish or not in the face of the Reapers, they were still saved from the Collectors and would not have a chance for (mortal, temporary) survival later.

Kidnapping children for the purpose of experimentation does not make Cerberus the only hope for the survival of the galaxy

Few would claim it is the only hope. But it can well be a hope, and part of The Hope, for survival.

You cant say they brought Shepard back to life either since it was likely they were responsible for his death in the first place. TIM likes using lures and the Amada system where the Normandy was shot down, was completely uninhabited. The Collectors had no reason to even be there. If you can think of why they were there, I'd like to hear it.

The Collectors proven interest in offing Shepard/trying to recover the body is every reason they need to be in that system, while you provide no evidence of any TIM's hand in Shepard's death.

[Dean_the_Young]

Saphra Deden wrote...

008Zulu wrote...

Here's something, defeating the Collectors and destroying the based didn't save millions of lives, it didn't even save 100. The Reapers were already coming and have already arrived. Billions are going to die, defeating the Collectors hasn't changed anything.

Your stubbornness woudl be admirable if it weren't in the service of a totally asinine and illogical cause.

You must think even less of ME2 than I do though, if you think destroying the Collectors accomplished literally nothing.

Saphra, chill. Take a break, maybe for the night, and come back with a more tranquil temper later.

Insulting your opponents with needless hostility only serves to discredit your arguments, both to them and to all observers.

[DPSSOC]

008Zulu wrote...
Here's something, defeating the Collectors and destroying the based didn't save millions of lives, it didn't even save 100. The Reapers were already coming and have already arrived. Billions are going to die, defeating the Collectors hasn't changed anything.

And here's where we run into an issue of gameplay continuity vs story continuity.  Because in gameplay continuity I can offer to go hunt the Shadow Broker with Liara before I even find out she's hunting the Shadow Broker herself.  In gameplay continuity I can start the Archangel recruitment mission where it's hinted he has days to live at most, and then go complete every available N7 mission, DLC, and recruitment missions and go back to Omega where he's still holding strong.

Story continuity however can't allow for these things.  Shepard can't offer to help someone do something he's not yet aware they're doing.  He can't travel the length and width of the galaxy and complete various missions in a number of days.  So we have to ask ourselves when these events happen in the story, not the game.  Now Lair of the Shadow Broker and Arrival were marketed as bridging DLC which would suggest they are meant (in story continuity) to be played after the completion of Mass Effect 2.  The only reason they are available before you finish the suicide mission is so players who get their Shepards killed can still play them.  So how long after ME2 does Arrival happen?  Days, weeks, months?  Hopefully Bioware will clarify but until then I wouldn't say stopping the Collectors changed nothing

008Zulu wrote...
Kidnapping children for the purpose of experimentation does not make Cerberus the only hope for the survival of the galaxy

Has anyone argued that it does? Being the only organization making an effort to halt or even delay impending doom on the other hand...

008Zulu wrote...
You cant say they brought Shepard back to life either since it was likely they were responsible for his death in the first place. TIM likes using lures and the Amada system where the Normandy was shot down, was completely uninhabited. The Collectors had no reason to even be there. If you can think of why they were there, I'd like to hear it.

Unless, and hold on to your hat cause I'm about to blow your mind, the Collectors set a trap.  The Collectors didn't start abducting colonies until Shepard was out of the picture (if I'm not mistaken) so perhaps the Collectors captured a few ships, knowing that eventually the Council would send Shepard in to see what was going on (had they sent others and they simply disappeared they would have sent others and on and on until Shepard was the only available choice).  So all they had to do was wait for the Normandy to show up, strike, and then Shepard (the only threat to their plans) is out of the picture and in their grasp.

Modifié par DPSSOC, 07 mai 2011 - 03:33 .

[Dean_the_Young]

DPSSOC wrote...

So how long after ME2 does Arrival happen?  Days, weeks, months?  Hopefully Bioware will clarify but until then I wouldn't say stopping the Collectors changed nothing

Going by the known timeline so far, 'months' is the answer, possibly extending into 'year(s)'. Arrival* takes place two months before ME3, but Retribution took place a year after the destruction of the Collector Base. Moreover, during Retribution no sign or mention of any sort Batarian incident is known, while the Illusive Man notes that he doesn't know much of what Shepard has been up to. This implies that either Arrival takes place at the same time as Retribution, or even some time afterwards.


*In the post-Suicide mission context of 'bridging' DLC: if done pre-suicide mission, the catch-all 'months or years' delay expands as needed.

[Ultai]

008Zulu wrote...

You cant say they brought Shepard back to life either since it was likely they were responsible for his death in the first place. TIM likes using lures and the Amada system where the Normandy was shot down, was completely uninhabited. The Collectors had no reason to even be there. If you can think of why they were there, I'd like to hear it.

Let's not go into tinfoil hat territory

[Quole]

Cerberus is more retarded than evil. As is anyone that supports them.

[008Zulu]

Still weren't able to offer a reasonable explanation for why the Collectors were there. Also, they didn't want Shepard until after he was resurrected, when construction of the Human Reaper had begun. Additionally, Project Lazarus was started before Shepard died. Pretty solid evidence that they knew he was going to die.

As for the Collectors, destroying them and their base hasn't altered the fact they are going to die at the hands of the Reapers. Most likely in the same method as originally. They are already dead.

All the pro-Cerbs have argued that everything that TIM and Cerberus have done is the for the betterment and salvation of the human species.

Modifié par 008Zulu, 07 mai 2011 - 08:10 .

[Dean_the_Young]

008Zulu wrote...

Still weren't able to offer a reasonable explanation for why the Collectors were there.

The Collectors setting a trap, when their entire history of conduct after Sovereign until their demise is of surprise attacks and an interest in Shepard, is unreasonable?

And, in light of actually seeing the Collectors there, while no evidence or even insinuation in the game that TIM tipped off/suggested/arranged Shepard's death in an incredibly risky and difficult position for him to experience any windfall or fullfilment of his plans, makes assuming TIM was behind Shepard's death reasonable?

Also, they didn't want Shepard until after he was resurrected, when construction of the Human Reaper had begun.

Disproven by the events of both Ressurection and referred to in the game itself: the Collectors were trying to get Shepard's body since even before Cerberus got its hands on it, well before Shepard was resurrected.

Additionally, Project Lazarus was started before Shepard died. Pretty solid evidence that they knew he was going to die.

Contingency plans are based on predicting and preparing for potential bad things before they happen. If you buckle a seat belt, it's not solid evidence that you know you're going to have a crash, it's a precaution in case you did.

Project Lazarus, with only one subject, couldn't even get off the ground until Shepard was both recovered, and analyzed to see if ressurection was possible.

As for the Collectors, destroying them and their base hasn't altered the fact they are going to die at the hands of the Reapers. Most likely in the same method as originally. They are already dead.

No, they're currently alive.

All the pro-Cerbs have argued that everything that TIM and Cerberus have done is the for the betterment and salvation of the human species.

All the pro-Cerbs have argued that everything... betterment AND salvation?

One absolute is already pushing it: two absolutisms, and then linking a co-requisite? Clearly your memories are bluring.

[008Zulu]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
The Collectors setting a trap, when their entire history of conduct after Sovereign until their demise is of surprise attacks and an interest in Shepard, is unreasonable?

And, in light of actually seeing the Collectors there, while no evidence or even insinuation in the game that TIM tipped off/suggested/arranged Shepard's death in an incredibly risky and difficult position for him to experience any windfall or fullfilment of his plans, makes assuming TIM was behind Shepard's death reasonable?

A trap is reasonable, but how did the collectors know the exact where and when Shepard would be? As I have said, saving a person's life is a good way to earn their trust, and Cerberus do like using lures.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Disproven by the events of both Ressurection and referred to in the game itself: the Collectors were trying to get Shepard's body since even before Cerberus got its hands on it, well before Shepard was resurrected.

Why would they want to get their hands on Shepard's corpse? Could be that they also have the Lazarus technology.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Contingency plans are based on predicting and preparing for potential bad things before they happen. If you buckle a seat belt, it's not solid evidence that you know you're going to have a crash, it's a precaution in case you did.

Project Lazarus, with only one subject, couldn't even get off the ground until Shepard was both recovered, and analyzed to see if ressurection was possible.

See above for Lazarus's origin. Even if it weren't, 4 billion is a hell of a lot to drop on a contingency plan.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
No, they're currently alive.

They have had a few extra numbers added to their clocks, their deaths at the hands of the Reapers is inevitable.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
All the pro-Cerbs have argued that everything... betterment AND salvation?

One absolute is already pushing it: two absolutisms, and then linking a co-requisite? Clearly your memories are bluring.

All the pro-Cerbs here seem pretty confident that Cerberus is the only way.

[Leonia]

008Zulu wrote...

Why would they want to get their hands on Shepard's corpse? Could be that they also have the Lazarus technology.

Who knows, if we knew the answer to that, we'd probably be able to appreciate Arrival a bit better (presumably they still want Shepard's body for something) but Redemption made it clear that they were desperate to get their hands on Shepard's body, dead or alive. You can't use that as evidence that they have Lazarus-tech though. Maybe they just wanted Shepard's memories and visions.

All the pro-Cerbs here seem pretty confident that Cerberus is the only way.

That is a gross exaggeration.

Modifié par leonia42, 07 mai 2011 - 12:33 .

[General User]

As I see it, the Collectors didn’t really need to know that much about Shepard’s movements. The only piece of information the Collectors really needed was that Shepard was the Spectre assigned to investigate the ship disappearances and, if I’m not mistaken, the Council/Alliance (who believed the disappearances to be geth related) announced that much publicly.

From there it’s a matter of setting up an ambush and laying in wait. Difficult maybe, but not terribly complex. Of course, more intel would be better, but I don’t see how it would be vitally needed.

008Zulu wrote...
They have had a few extra numbers added to their clocks, their deaths at the hands of the Reapers is inevitable.

Harbinger?

Modifié par General User, 07 mai 2011 - 12:41 .

[Mohak]

I think TIM's plan from the beginning was to get his hands on some proper Collector tech(the base being best possible scenario) and Shepard was just a tool(an expensive one) to achieve that goal.

Reasons why Shepard and Cerberus would conflict in times like these are many, but my money is on TIM planning to go full Saddam-mode after the reaper invasion and I think even renegade Shepard would go busting some balls if (s)he found out TIM would betray him/her in the end.

Still fun to read people complaining about bad writing etc. when the game isn't even out yet. Keep on speculating, not complaining.