1342 réponses à ce sujet

[atheelogos]

008Zulu wrote...

A thought occured to me the other day that Cerberus is more evil than most people realise. Lets take a brief and somewhat more thorough look at their activities of late...

Mass Effect 1

Corporal Toombs' unit was led in to a trap by Cerberus where they were largly killed by Thresher Maws, the survivors were experimented on, humans were experimented on.

Cerberus scientists tried to breed an army from Rachni and Thorian Creepers. The Rachni managed to cause all manner of unpleasentness on more than one world.

Murdered a serving Admiral of the Alliance.

Mass Effect 2

Kidnapped, tortured and murdered children in an effort to increase biotic potential.

Project Lazarus, rather convenient they happened to invent the exact technology they needed the most when they needed it the most. We assumed it worked right the first time, how many people must they have had to experiement on in order to work out the bugs? There is only one race who could have had the tech, and get the procedure right the first time.

Horizon, TIM essentially told the Collectors that a friend of Shep's was there. The Collectors eithers  figured that the friend would know where Shep was or be able to contact him/her. Total human cost (the same humans he supposedly cares about saving) ; half a colony. Hundreds if not thousands.

The distress call, a Turian cruiser with a compliment of approximately 300.

Project Overlord, torturing a mentally handicapped human.

Alluded to when you meet Tali for the first time, that Cerberus tried to infiltrate and destroy a Quarian ship in the Flotilla.



TIM is not in it to save the galaxy or humanity, he is in for his own personel power trip. Now, if you go ahead and point out that TIM didn't have any knowledge of what was going on with all these various cells, then it only speaks to his incompetence as a leader of a secret organisation. He did make a point of it tell Shep that information is his weapon, so he would have known.

So which is he: The evil murdering terrorist these activites paint him as OR extremely incompetent?

Lets not use the word evil... Instead lets say darker shade of grey

[Clonedzero]

michaelrsa wrote...

In regards to the humans outside the Alliance I really don't give a **** about them. What reasonable excuse could a person have for leaving the Alliance? Based on what the game tell us I can't really see the Alliance as being any more unbearable as living in a first world nation, which is bearable as hell.

As a person who grew up in a poorer nation I'll say right now that wanting to leave the safety of the wealthier nations because of you don't like the way things are run is down right stupid. Sure, you have to give up some minor freedoms with every goverment but in the end you are guaranteed greater safety.

apparently the alliance has some pretty strict rules and regulations that people get pretty sick of and thus go make independant colonies.

[Anacronian Stryx]

Well i guess Shepard should just be happy that the one project that doesn't blow up in Cerberus face is Lazerus.

I mean really how do you keep moral up in a organization which defining feature is that none of their projects goes to plan?

[KnightofPhoenix]

michaelrsa wrote...

In regards to the humans outside the Alliance I really don't give a **** about them. What reasonable excuse could a person have for leaving the Alliance? Based on what the game tell us I can't really see the Alliance as being any more unbearable as living in a first world nation, which is bearable as hell.

As a person who grew up in a poorer nation I'll say right now that wanting to leave the safety of the wealthier nations because of you don't like the way things are run is down right stupid. Sure, you have to give up some minor freedoms with every goverment but in the end you are guaranteed greater safety.

I agree they are mostly idiots, but if humanity doesn't want to look weak, they have to be protected in some fashion. Plus, they have manpower and pribably ressources that the Alliance will require.

[Someone With Mass]

I agree with mich on this one. They must've know the risks and consequences when they left the Alliance. It's their own damn fault if they're targeted by pirates, slavers or in worst case Collectors.

I would've just sucked it up and stayed where it's safe.

[KnightofPhoenix]

michaelrsa wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I agree they are mostly idiots, but if humanity doesn't want to look weak, they have to be protected in some fashion. Plus, they have manpower and pribably ressources that the Alliance will require.

I agree, but then the Alliance should take those colonies. Why should they defend a colony that basically was created as a giant **** YOU to the Alliance?

Ideally, they should be annexed completely, but that would create complications in practise.

I am more in favor of economic and military security pacts, at least for the short future. Then, they can be absorbed completely.

[Almostfaceman]

Merchant2006 wrote...

Oh my good god, what the hell is going on here.

I find it hilarious that some people are like BRO U NO NOTHIN CUZ UR SIDIN WITH THEM ALIENS ITS ALL ABOU HOW CERBUS IS EVIL BUYT U SUK CUZ CEBRUHSS IS NOT EVIL HUMANITY FOREVBER!

Get real people. Some of you keep on justifying Cerberus' actions but I think that falls within the category of **** no one cares about. Why all the hate for people who dislike Cerberus? OP is just stating that Cerberus is indeed evil.

But clearly a group that tortures and experiments on the mentally challenged is DOING IT FOR TEH BEST OF TEHE HUMMANS! *Raises fist into the air* because the way forward for humanity in the future is ripping apart the disabled and using them as human expriments! 

Feels good man.

**** +1 goddamit 

[M-Sinistrari]

Someone With Mass wrote...

I agree with mich on this one. They must've know the risks and consequences when they left the Alliance. It's their own damn fault if they're targeted by pirates, slavers or in worst case Collectors.

I would've just sucked it up and stayed where it's safe.

Going from the dialog from the guy in hiding on Horizon, it sounds like a good many of the colonists think the Alliance is lying about the dangers outside of Alliance/Council space.

[Dean_the_Young]

michaelrsa wrote...

In regards to the humans outside the Alliance I really don't give a **** about them. What reasonable excuse could a person have for leaving the Alliance? Based on what the game tell us I can't really see the Alliance as being any more unbearable as living in a first world nation, which is bearable as hell.

If it's a Paragon universe, the Terminus could be a place where the 'human first-ers' see themselves as the last true bastion of Humanity while  the Alliance kow tows to the Council and the aliens.

In a Renegade universe, the Terminus is the last refuge of Humans who view the Alliance as a racist/jingoistic/imperilaistic power that they want no part in.

As a person who grew up in a poorer nation I'll say right now that wanting to leave the safety of the wealthier nations because of you don't like the way things are run is down right stupid. Sure, you have to give up some minor freedoms with every goverment but in the end you are guaranteed greater safety.

Well, that's idealism for you.

[Someone With Mass]

M-Sinistrari wrote...
Going from the dialog from the guy in hiding on Horizon, it sounds like a good many of the colonists think the Alliance is lying about the dangers outside of Alliance/Council space.

Which is even more baffling, because it's not that hard to tell that the Terminus system, a system that's run by pirates and mercenary bands might not be so safe for the kids and the family.

[KnightofPhoenix]

michaelrsa wrote...
What about colonies like Horizon that seem to be populated entirely by people who don't trust the Alliance? They aren't likely to agree to anything.

Secretly fund or allow pirates to raid to prove the point. Immdiately intervene and show "benevolence" .
Economic deals, like opening up markets, sharing ressources...etc. With the semblance of equity in there and not an exploitative periphery to core system.

My solution is to cut all support to all non-Alliance human populations. Make it clear that the Alliance will not assist them in any way against pirates and slavers.

Can't really look weak that way to anyone. You're putting your foot down. When non-Alliance colonies start getting sacked left, right and center everyone will realize the idiocy of leaving the Alliance and non-Alliance colonies will become a lot less attractive.

It still risks looking weak. The Batarians absolutely loved the fact that human colonies are dissapearing left and right with the Alliance incapable of even knowing what's happening. I think Turians would see that as a sign of weakness also.

We have to remember, these are not small colonies of a couple of hundreds. Horizon has 300.000 people. I don't think they should be ignored completely.

Then again, I've always espoused the "soft power" or "second face" of hegemonic stability. I wouldn't take that much of a hard line. They may not trust the Alliance (and for some good reason actually). But economic and security incentives, coupled with behind the doors politicking, should be enough to establish a rapprochement and not deny the Alliance of manpower and ressources, and loss of face.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 25 avril 2011 - 04:48 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
In a Renegade universe, the Terminus is the last refuge of Humans who view the Alliance as a racist/jingoistic/imperilaistic power that they want no part in.

Meh. Probably an excuse to retain their over-valued autonomy.

[Last Vizard]

History often vindicates extreme actions, none of what Cerberus has done is new to humanity (in context) and while said countries where defeated..... the Allies kept the data and developed upon it in most cases, i think the cost for Humanity will be greater if we don't explore every possible path to defeat the Reapers and/or Aliens.

[M-Sinistrari]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Which is even more baffling, because it's not that hard to tell that the Terminus system, a system that's run by pirates and mercenary bands might not be so safe for the kids and the family.

Not quite that baffling really.  I liken it to the misadventures of a neo-hippy friend of mine.  She did a stint with the Peace Corp and got sent off to I think Thailand.  She left with visions of the beautiful mountains, pristine jungle and everything living in harmony and bringing enlightenment to the locals.   We did try to inform her that she was glossing a lot over especially since her attempt to live out in the desert to be off the grid tanked spectacularly.

Well, that all changed after learning that the local wildlife out there doesn't mind having you or anything else for dinner, local microbes in food can and do wreck havoc on your system if you're not adjusted to it, and people can react very nasty if you present yourself in a condesending manner even when you don't think you're being so.

Hopefully lessons were learned with the hella case of diarrhea and hookworm she got.

I know I sound like I'm making light of the situation, but since she ignored our advice about not doing the barefoot walking around in the jungle, the concept of just because a local dish looks like it's vegetables doesn't mean it's a proper prepared vegan meal, and that there was a high chance of some armed group on the prowl where she was, well, we all had the stance of we tried to warn and were blown off so it was all on her own head.

Though looking back we shouldn't've been suprised, she blew us off when we had advice about roughing it in the desert.

[alienatedflea]

Cerberus is not evil...Cerberus has questionable tactics but its not evil...Cerberus does what it does for an underlying purpose...not just random...to be evil, (in my opinion) evil is random...evil is doing something for the sheer joy of doing something messed up...creating human biotics kids has a purpose to have humans comparable to Asari...Jack is probably more powerful than most Mariarch asari...the goal was reached...now Cerberus wasnt looking at the long term psychological effects of the experiments on the participants but they successfully advanced the human race...(you have to always try to get that foot in the doorway)..If you can have a legion of husks to weaken your enemy rather than sacriface human lives then its well worth the costs if you weigh the benefits...(cost - benefits analysis, NOT ends justify the means)...Cerberus' goal is to advance human dominance in the galaxy...its not evil but essential..if you dont want to be the top dog then who would you want it to be? (its like the food chain)...perservation is key to survival...not appeasement
PS: Isnt it curious that the Salarians have the covert STG organization and the Asari's have the Commandos...why does turians and humans have their own organizations (not a co-owned organization like the Alliance) but for their own race organization..just saying...

[Mr. Gogeta34]

"Garrus: Damn it, Kaidan/Williams. You're so focused on Cerberus that you're ignoring the real threat!

Jack: I hate these guys too, but they're not the only threat out there. (adds a "Jeez" at the beginning for Kaidan)

Jacob: Typical Alliance attitude. So hung up Cerberus that you can't see the real threat.

Kasumi: Wow. You're so hung up on Cerberus you're ignoring the real threat.

Miranda: Typical Alliance attitude. You're so focused on Cerberus that you're blind to the real threat.

Mordin: Too hung up on Cerberus. Ignoring the real threat.

Tali: Ash/Kaidan, can't you see what's happened? You're so focused on Cerberus that you're ignoring the real threat.

Zaeed: Typical Alliance. Can't take your eyes off Cerberus long enough to see the real threat."



That is all

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 25 avril 2011 - 06:04 .

[Darth Death]

Join us as we, Cerberus lose our humanity (by conducting inhuman experiments on our own species) in order to advance our causes! We're protecting humanity! Hooray!

Haha the people in this thread are funny.

[Last Vizard]

History often vindicates extreme actions, none of what Cerberus has done is new to humanity (in context) while "evil" countries where defeated in our own history..... the Allies kept the data, while in some cases they developed upon it (alot of air flight design and safety was tested on people before a particular war), i think the cost for Humanity will be greater if we don't explore every possible path to defeat the Reapers and/or Aliens.

Cerberus aren't the good guys, but then who is? i think Fable 3 did a good job with its story choices due to the fact that if you were "good" most of the Kingdom died however if you were "bad" most of the Kingdom lived... Most people on these forums would take the moral high ground and risk all while others will be the lesser of two evils.

You might not like it but someone has to lose in order for others to gain, what Cerberus did/does was/is evil and selfish (all for TIMs personal gain).  In the end, is it better for TIM/Cerberus to rule the Galaxy or Humanity after Reaper invasion for however long it takes for said Empire to fall or reform while ensuring we (aliens too) survive? or is it better that we keep our hands clean (merc/bad guy blood not counted) and risk all just so our Shep can sleep soundly at night without having to see the faces of people/civillations he sacrificed to win the day?

I am an Empire guy (starwars) under Sith rule there was stability and growth, people were elevated in position due to their ability not connections (for the most part) and there was little to no war... yes alien threats to Humanity were being wiped out but it was to bring permanent stability to the galaxy. 

The Rebel forces (mostly Human) fought for the rights of aliens so that their would be equality in the galaxy, they succeeded however the galaxy was now unstable and many many wars followed shortly after.... these wars were against aliens trying to carve out their own empire and even though the fragile Republic defeated each new enemy, the cost in lives continued to grow and the Republic slowly started ripping itself apart causing more and more death.... blah bloody blah, who were the real bad guys? History and Hindsight vindicates, not often but sometimes the "bad" guys are right.

Edit: yes the first paragraph is pretty much the same as an above post but this all works better together.

Modifié par Last Vizard, 25 avril 2011 - 06:15 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

michaelrsa wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Secretly fund or allow pirates to raid to prove the point. Immdiately intervene and show "benevolence" .
Economic deals, like opening up markets, sharing ressources...etc. With the semblance of equity in there and not an exploitative periphery to core system.

Not a bad idea. Still, if the Alliance comes and helps non-Alliance colonies like that it's going to make people start to think they can leave the Alliance and have some semblance of protection provided by them.

The Alliance really needs to show people that colonizing on their own is extremely dangerous. 

Security pacts would only be provided with economic pacts as well (tying them up to the Allianc economically). And some political affiliation. Think of it as a NATO, only more centralized around the Alliance. Actually, maybe the Warsaw Pact is a better analogy.

[Dean_the_Young]

Darth Death wrote...

Join us as we, Commander Shepard lose our humanity (by killing not only our own species by the hundreds but genocide many other ) in order to advance our causes! We're protecting the galaxy! Hooray!

Haha the people in this thread are funny.

Yes.

Yes you are.

[jamesp81]

ExtremeOne wrote...

You know Op you anti Cerberus fans are pathetic . I am a Cerberus fan and pro human but what the alliance has done in 3 is even worse . They get Shepard to do arrival and then put him on trail. F the alliance and in 3 I will be a total b*tch to them

I was tempted to switch sides to throw in fully with TIM after Arrival.  After everything I've done and they want to put me on trial?

However, I just don't trust TIM.  I'm pretty damned pro-human too, but I don't want to put any other races under my thumb.  I'm happy to have humanity simply left in peace to do our own thing.  TIM does want to put others under his thumb, Humanity included.

[M-Sinistrari]

alienatedflea wrote...

Cerberus is not evil...Cerberus has questionable tactics but its not evil...Cerberus does what it does for an underlying purpose...not just random...to be evil, (in my opinion) evil is random...evil is doing something for the sheer joy of doing something messed up...

Evil as a concept's been long debated by people with more education than us.  Evil can happen when there is an underlying purpose, in fact it's probably most horrifying in that aspect.  The Tuskeegee Experiment did advance knowlege about the progression of syphillis, but the victims were lied to as to what they had, infected thier wives with the disease and children were born with the congential form.  Even when there was a cure available, they were deliberately not treated with it.  

The doctors involved likely felt this was a necessary thing in the cause of medical advancement but it opened up debate that still rages over the ethics, and there's still mistrust towards the medical profession in that they allowed this in the first place so who knows if they'll do something similiar if they think they can get away with it.

Granted this example's not like the usually mentioned evil of a dictator on a genocide spree, or a sociopathic murderer on the prowl, but it is still evil.


Here's what else I'm not seeing in your argument.

creating human biotics kids has a purpose to have humans comparable to
Asari...Jack is probably more powerful than most Mariarch asari...the
goal was reached...now Cerberus wasnt looking at the long term
psychological effects of the experiments on the participants but they
successfully advanced the human race...(you have to always try to get
that foot in the doorway

Considering that it's something like out of 10 exposures to eezo to get one viable biotic (according to the wiki), that's not a good return on effort since you're going to end up with more dead kids than useful ones.  Looking at Pragia, they're taking what biotics they've got and end up killing most of the kids in a pretty inept trial and error process just in the hopes of getting one high powered biotic that in the end is pretty much going to die early because her system simply can't handle the power.  I don't think the most monstrous of world goverments would be okay with expending that much with only a vague promise of quantifyable success.

If you can have a legion of husks to weaken your enemy rather than
sacriface human lives then its well worth the costs if you weigh the
benefits...(cost - benefits analysis, NOT ends justify the means)...

Having a ready source of disposable shock troops does make some sense in a wartime scenario.  However, you're still going to need people to get converted into husks, so there goes the sparing human lives angle.  Equally husks are based on a technology that's not fully understood.  For all we know they could go off on thier own tangent and start converting anyone into husks.  There's also who's to say they'd be controllable since from how it's looked in game that they're just pointed in a particular direction and let loose.  Without fully studying husk technology (control, method of creation that doesn't involve a person getting converted) they're not a reasonable resource for use.

Same goes for the Thorian Creepers.  Yeah they're essentially bipedal plants so could be mass grown, but without fully understanding the biology we don't know what effect thier pollen/spores would have as well as a reliable way to control them since they all went pretty crazy when the Thorian died.

Cerberus' goal is to advance human dominance in the galaxy...its not
evil but essential..if you dont want to be the top dog then who would
you want it to be? (its like the food chain)...perservation is key to
survival...not appeasement

But is that goal worth the cost of one's humanity?  From how Cerberus presents it's case, it's human dominance at the cost of whatever it takes to get us there even if it means losing what makes us human.