1342 réponses à ce sujet

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

But that doesn't mean that either side can disengage instantly without any notice or prepration, or that they can get far enough away not to be hit at any time. The Collector's first strike was a decisive strike, and was literally seconds after the Normandy crew realized that the unknown craft was hostile.

Actually it sort of does, or else the other side closes and causes significant casualties before the fleeing side gets away, esp if they have DN's. The SR2 did disengage instantly, and the codex doesn't say anything about needing preparation. It speaks of such disengagement as if it is a matter of course.

Rewatch the encounter. It isn't 'literally seconds.' It is at least a couple minutes and everyone on the Normandy is talking calmly. Joker is acting like he has the situation under control and noone is showing surprise or concern that the enemy is closing. Joker also doesn't even seem to consider turning to fight.

The second Collector trap also had a great deal of leeway for the Normandy to prepare to flee: it knew it was going to have to escape well before it made the jump.

It isn't a jump drive though. Nor is it a wormhole drive. Per the codex, ships in ME literally accelerate to FTL speeds. At no time does Joker say anything about 'if only I had a few more seconds to prep the drive' or 'the drive isn't prepped Commander, we can't disengage yet.'

Is there anything in game or in the codex that backs up your view?

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi wrote...

Actually it sort of does, or else the other side closes and causes significant casualties before the fleeing side gets away, esp if they have DN's. The SR2 did disengage instantly, and the codex doesn't say anything about needing preparation. It speaks of such disengagement as if it is a matter of course.

The codex doesn't mention a lot of things that are easily inferred by watching the cutscenes and reading the books. Such as, for example, the reoccruing note about how the ships take a short while to kick in their FTL drives. This neither rejects anything in the Codex nor violates any rules of the series.

'Not getting away instantly' does not mean that you can't get away quickly, IE fast enough to be able to avoid fleet battles. Even if we presume that it takes 30 seconds to warm up the FTL drive for FTL, that's still a small enough window of opportunity to be exploited.

Rewatch the encounter. It isn't 'literally seconds.' It is at least a couple minutes and everyone on the Normandy is talking calmly. Joker is acting like he has the situation under control and noone is showing surprise or concern that the enemy is closing. Joker also doesn't even seem to consider turning to fight.

Strange, I just did, and it wasn't minutes of known hostile conduct. It isn't even twenty seconds between the Collector ship being identified as a cruiser and opening fire.

The Normandy crew, justifiably, thought that their stealth made them safe. That is neither complacent or incompetent for the crew of a stealth ship.

It isn't a jump drive though. Nor is it a wormhole drive. Per the codex, ships in ME literally accelerate to FTL speeds. At no time does Joker say anything about 'if only I had a few more seconds to prep the drive' or 'the drive isn't prepped Commander, we can't disengage yet.'

Jump should be a rather obvious figurative expression.

Joker certainly does remark about how it's taking awhile, while with the scenes like the Kokiak shuttle going FTL there's regular, visible preparing before FTL and more distance traveled rather than merely pointing and going to FTL velocities.

Accelerating is the weak point of any escape: you have to start accelerating, and that can take time enough to allow a surprise attack.

Is there anything in game or in the codex that backs up your view?

Pretty much ever cutscene in which the FTL escape comes in a dramatic last second rather than comfortably and safely before?

[General User]

It's been a while since I've watched to opening scene, but since the Collectors use a Directed Energy Weapon as their main gun, wouldn't (theoretically/logically) the first warning the SR-1 crew would have that their "unidentified cruiser" was hostile be the impact of the Collectors weapon?

I mean since the Particle Beam travels at the speed of light, it should be impossible to detect prior to impact.

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The codex doesn't mention a lot of things that are easily inferred by watching the cutscenes and reading the books. Such as, for example, the reoccruing note about how the ships take a short while to kick in their FTL drives. This neither rejects anything in the Codex nor violates any rules of the series.

'Not getting away instantly' does not mean that you can't get away quickly, IE fast enough to be able to avoid fleet battles. Even if we presume that it takes 30 seconds to warm up the FTL drive for FTL, that's still a small enough window of opportunity to be exploited.

While it is true that the codex isn't inclusive, in this case there is nothing in that encounter that backs up your theory other than simply that the did not disengage. My suggestion that Joker was either incompetent or co-opted provides an alternate explaination.

Strange, I just did, and it wasn't minutes of known hostile conduct. It isn't even twenty seconds between the Collector ship being identified as a cruiser and opening fire.

The Normandy crew, justifiably, thought that their stealth made them safe. That is neither complacent or incompetent for the crew of a stealth ship.

I just did too, and not only do I have to take a mia culpa there (since it is a lot quicker than I remember, which bugs me since I had re-watched it for an earlier discussion), but the cut scene seems to show the collector vessel already relatively close on the normandy's tail even as they are told it changed course. There also seems to be a delayed reaction due to hand wringing over the fact they were spotted.

That said, I still maintain the collectors got lucky. Joker could still have hit the accelerator the second it changed course. The Normandy is still a fast frigate and shouldn't have been closed with that easily unless it allowed it.

]Jump should be a rather obvious figurative expression.

Joker certainly does remark about how it's taking awhile, while with the scenes like the Kokiak shuttle going FTL there's regular, visible preparing before FTL and more distance traveled rather than merely pointing and going to FTL velocities.

Accelerating is the weak point of any escape: you have to start accelerating, and that can take time enough to allow a surprise attack.

Fair enough on the expression. The later disengagement though was still a matter of fast acceleration, so we know the SR2 can accelerate that quickly. Even if additional prep is needed to go beyond a certain speed, the collector vessel wasn't doing so either. Simply matching its speed should have been possible. As for the Kodiak, not sure. It would likely have a less sophisticated astrogation computer, but then the SR2 had EDI, which could have made a difference there.

Pretty much ever cutscene in which the FTL escape comes in a dramatic last second rather than comfortably and safely before?

I can't actually remember many of those, although that could just be my memory.

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi wrote...

While it is true that the codex isn't inclusive, in this case there is nothing in that encounter that backs up your theory other than simply that the did not disengage. My suggestion that Joker was either incompetent or co-opted provides an alternate explaination.

So does the argument that neither of those necessarily apply.

That said, I still maintain the collectors got lucky. Joker could still have hit the accelerator the second it changed course. The Normandy is still a fast frigate and shouldn't have been closed with that easily unless it allowed it.

He rather did: the Normandy does begin to accelerate and begin evasive maneuver. Hence why the first beam does miss. But acceleration isn't instantanious, and so the next beams did hit.

Even if additional prep is needed to go beyond a certain speed, the collector vessel wasn't doing so either. Simply matching its speed should have been possible. As for the Kodiak, not sure. It would likely have a less sophisticated astrogation computer, but then the SR2 had EDI, which could have made a difference there.

The Collector vessel doesn't need to. The Collector Vessel is just shooting: so long as the weapons move appreciably faster, that's all it needs.

The SR1, of course, did not have EDI... and wouldn't have had reason to start plugging in a solution until they felt the vessel was hostile.

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

So does the argument that neither of those necessarily apply.

I agree, and apologize that I wasn't more clear in saying so.

He rather did: the Normandy does begin to accelerate and begin evasive maneuver. Hence why the first beam does miss. But acceleration isn't instantanious, and so the next beams did hit.

I still contend that he was late in accelerating. He shouldn't even have started with the ship's tail to the other vessel. As soon as it was spotted, the Normandy should have been turning towards it to investigate.

The Collector vessel doesn't need to. The Collector Vessel is just shooting: so long as the weapons move appreciably faster, that's all it needs.

The SR1, of course, did not have EDI... and wouldn't have had reason to start plugging in a solution until they felt the vessel was hostile.

As it didn't open fire immediately on changing course, it is safe to assume that sensor range is greater than weapons range, and since its vector didn't start identical to the Normandy (it did have to change course), the Collector vessel would have had to accelerate too, unless it just happened to be travelling at top speed in close to the right direction when it and the Normandy spotted each other. Again, that would have required the Collectors to be lucky.

As for plugging in a solution, maybe it is just my old boy scout 'be prepared' training but it seems to me that a scout/recon vessel should always have a disengagement course on standby. Not that it is really hard to simply set a 'go that way fast' course....

[Moiaussi]

General User wrote...

It's been a while since I've watched to opening scene, but since the Collectors use a Directed Energy Weapon as their main gun, wouldn't (theoretically/logically) the first warning the SR-1 crew would have that their "unidentified cruiser" was hostile be the impact of the Collectors weapon?

I mean since the Particle Beam travels at the speed of light, it should be impossible to detect prior to impact.

They were investigating the loss of ships in the region and encounter an unknown cruiser. They should have assumed hostile on sight, even if they did not engage.

[Dean_the_Young]

The action for detecting a hostile for a stealth ship would be... to do nothing. If you're stealthed, moving erratically would be the best chance to lose that element of being hidden.

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi wrote...

I still contend that he was late in accelerating. He shouldn't even have started with the ship's tail to the other vessel. As soon as it was spotted, the Normandy should have been turning towards it to investigate.

Pretty much as soon as the cruiser was spotted, the sensor were already picking up information and it was investigating.

As it didn't open fire immediately on changing course, it is safe to assume that sensor range is greater than weapons range, and since its vector didn't start identical to the Normandy (it did have to change course), the Collector vessel would have had to accelerate too, unless it just happened to be travelling at top speed in close to the right direction when it and the Normandy spotted each other. Again, that would have required the Collectors to be lucky.

In regards to weapon's range, all changing position beforehand really implies is that the weapon is oriented in such a way than changing positions is preferable. Whether the targetting and sensors outrange the weapon or not is, of course, a matter of context: space weapons have effectively infinite range, after all.

In terms of changing directions, that's nearly always been easier/quicker to do than radically changing velocity. Not to say it's always easy, but minor adjustments in orientation (which is acceleration) is a different category of requirement/effort than doubling your current speed.

Now, did the Collectors get lucky? Well, it was sure convenient for them, and we do have a story to get on with here. But then, we can also justify their luck: they could have hidden sensors (or Occuli) of their own already hiding and waiting, and then they saw the Normandy and told the Collector Ship waiting outside how to arrive.

Stated? No. Implied? Not really. Plausible explanation for a story-telling convenience? Sure.

As for plugging in a solution, maybe it is just my old boy scout 'be prepared' training but it seems to me that a scout/recon vessel should always have a disengagement course on standby. Not that it is really hard to simply set a 'go that way fast' course....

There are many potential reasons for why one would not want to keep a FTL drive heated up and on ready... and limited heat sinks for the Normandy can well be one of a number of plausible reasons for it. The traditional ship-limitation of ion-buildup may be another, or the effects of keeping a FTL drive primed might undermine the stealth akin to trying to sneak around with a live radio. Since the Normandy was expecting another of a series of long, extended stealth patrols, violating those would be a simple and practical reason not to be ready to flee on a five-second notice on a hair-trigger, and instead take a 'long' half-minute from decision to execution if they need to.

[Dean_the_Young]

thurmanator692 wrote...

But they calculated that the collector cruiser was already on an intercept course
the best idea would be to gtfo

Sure... if they had the time to do so.

But simply the cruiser appearing doesn't mean it knows they are there, and is not reason to jump out of system in fright of... well, possibly nothing. They're stealth reconaissance, and part of reconaissance requires you to keep your cool in order to watch and learn. Hair-trigger fleeing isn't part of the job description.

[Dean_the_Young]

Plot? No. Nor how long it takes for a ship to move into light speed once willing: is it six of one, half a dozen of the other?

It's short, likely under a minute for craft like the Kodiak or the Normandy, but it's not instantaneous from a standstill either.

[008Zulu]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
The Collectors didn't need to know exactly when Shepard would be: as Pressly and Joker made note of, Alliance ships had been disappearing for awhile. Unless you presume those had nothing to do with the Collectors, then an obvious solution is that the Collectors ambushed those ships as well, waiting for when the Alliance would send a stealth frigate to their hunting zone, and until that ship had Shepard. Pretty basic ambush.

If Cerberus wanted to save Shepard's life... they could have saved Shepard's life. Killing him in a way that made recovery unlikely even before they knew if they could bring Shepard back from the dead, which they didn't. 'Saving a life is a good way to earn trust' is not proof that Cerberus killed Shepard for the purpose of bringing him back to life.

Yeah, but it was an uninhabitated area of space with no discernable resources. Why would the missing ships have been there? Its in the Omega cluster, its not like they would have to find remote areas for their clandestine dealings.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
The implication from Liara is that the Collectors wanted to analyze Shepard's genome and body.

So why didn't they just board the SR1 in the ME2 intro?

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Sure, but TIM was willing to spend 4 billion regardless. They weren't dropping 4 billion ahead of time: the 4 billion would only be spent IF Shepard died.

Mind you, 4 billion is a hell of a lot to drop for any sort of plan that bankrupts your private empire, which is a strong reason why if you wanted to kill Shepard, you'd do it in a way that would actually increase the likelyhood of that 4 billion ever being relevant: ie, killing him a way not likely to destroy the body beyond repair.

The planet Shepard was found on had a low mass and a thin atmosphere. A fall from orbit, while fatal (assuming hypoxia didn't kill him first), would keep the body (considering the armour) generally in one piece.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
No it is not. Unless the Reapers win, there will be survivors. Who will survive is open to the fates of war.

The Reapers don't have to win. While some are attacking military targets others would be off harvesting low defense worlds. 100 Dreadnaughts would easily be able to beat the fleet that would be presumably guarding earth.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Their eventual deaths are inevitable... but if you're going to argue that because people will die anyway, then saving them is irrelevant, the same logic also deligitimizes Commander Shepard in every respect. The Reapers victory is inevitable, so nothing Shepard has done has any moral worthiness, while Shepard's killing of plenty of people is still a crime.

It wouldn't be a total victory. Considering the size, strength and disposition of the enemy forces, it is going to be a very costly victory, for us.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
I wonder if you could actually write a list of ten people who believe that Cerberus is the only way, and then if that list would correspond with the people you're thinking about.

Last Vizard, ExtremeOne, Dean_the_Young, Zulu_DFA, KnightofPhoenix, alienatedflea, Seboist, Arijharn, Wargamion and laecraft. There we go, 10 Cerberus supporters all at varying degrees of pro-Cerberus support. As a note, you would only support someone if you thought they were the better option.

[DPSSOC]

Moiaussi wrote...

Has anyone argued that it does? Being the only organization making an effort to halt or even delay impending doom on the other hand...

TIM suppressing intel regarding Horizon, the Collector vessel, the derelict  reaper, the intact beacon, and undermining Shepard's credibiltiy went a long ways to ensure that Cerberus were the only 'saviors.' Concieling information about a crime just so you can look like a hero by stopping it yourself isn't very heroic.

True, but the information TIM found and didn't share was out there for anyone else to find if they were looking.  The fact that nobody else found this stuff would imply that nobody else is looking because nobody cares.  The meeting with the Council would seem to reinforce this idea with their trademark, "Not our problem" stance whenever things start going to hell.

Moiaussi wrote...

Unless, and hold on to your hat cause I'm about to blow your mind, the Collectors set a trap.  The Collectors didn't start abducting colonies until Shepard was out of the picture (if I'm not mistaken) so perhaps the Collectors captured a few ships, knowing that eventually the Council would send Shepard in to see what was going on (had they sent others and they simply disappeared they would have sent others and on and on until Shepard was the only available choice).  So all they had to do was wait for the Normandy to show up, strike, and then Shepard (the only threat to their plans) is out of the picture and in their grasp.

While that is likely, the biggest problem with that encounter is that Joker suddenly forgot the most basic rule in the tactical manual, and that is to keep the enemy from closing on your six. The Normandy should easily have been able to maintain distance. They spotted the Collector vessel at long range and it revealed immediately by way of course change that it spotted the normandy. The codex itself states that battles only happen where both sides want to fight because when ships spot each other at long range, there is nothing to prevent one side from simply maintaining distance or disengaging.

Of course it is possible that Joker was coopted by Cerberus sometime between ME1 and ME2....  he did seem swayed a little easily simply by comfy chairs. It might also have been why he wanted to go down with the ship. It might have been guilt over the betrayal.

Speaking as someone who used to spend 40 hours a week sitting I can not over extol the virtues of a comfy chair.  Anyone who spends the bulk of their time sitting will kill for a comfy chair.  However it wasn't just the chair.  They let him fly when the Alliance wouldn't, they'll acknowledge the Reapers when everyone else won't, they brought Shepard back..  Even if he didn't know about the last two keep in mind that, for Joker, flying is the only way he can get around that isn't hindered by his condition.  Imagine you were paralyzed and doctors told you you'd never walk again how much would you give, who would you agree to work with, if they could give you the use of your legs back.

008Zulu wrote...
Yeah, but it was an uninhabitated area of space with no discernable resources. Why would the missing ships have been there? Its in the Omega cluster, its not like they would have to find remote areas for their clandestine dealings.

Ships have gone missing in that sector (which I think would refer to the Omega cluster rather than the particular system they were in) and Shep and co are trying to find out why.  They could have been in that system looking for a base of operations for strikes on the ship.  Or they could have been doing a system by system sweep looking for anything.

008Zulu wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
The implication from Liara is that the Collectors wanted to analyze Shepard's genome and body.

So why didn't they just board the SR1 in the ME2 intro?

Because boarding requires the target to be relatively stationary.  The only reason they were able to board the SR2 is because it was dead in the water.  Think of it like trying to jump from one car to another on the highway, you can do it but it's tricky so it could have been a matter of simplicity; destroy the ship, find the body, take the body is a lot less complicated than disable the ship, board the ship, locate Shepard, disable Shepard, retrieve Shepard

[008Zulu]

DPSSOC wrote...
Ships have gone missing in that sector (which I think would refer to the Omega cluster rather than the particular system they were in) and Shep and co are trying to find out why.  They could have been in that system looking for a base of operations for strikes on the ship.  Or they could have been doing a system by system sweep looking for anything.

The system where the Normandy was shot down was a remote corner of the Omega cluster. Also devoid of life and no resources to speak of. It would cost (resource wise since Collectors don't use money) more than it would be worth to build and maintain a base there. Plus they already had a base, which was completely safe and secure. Building in an unknown area would require significant safety and security measures since they didn't control the Omega 4 public relay.

DPSSOC wrote...
Because boarding requires the target to be relatively stationary.  The only reason they were able to board the SR2 is because it was dead in the water.  Think of it like trying to jump from one car to another on the highway, you can do it but it's tricky so it could have been a matter of simplicity; destroy the ship, find the body, take the body is a lot less complicated than disable the ship, board the ship, locate Shepard, disable Shepard, retrieve Shepard

Their particle beam could have sliced off the engines, or they could have hacked the wireless network and forced the ship to stop. Yet even after they destroyed the ship, they made no effort to sweep the wreckage or conduct a thorough search of the planet.

[Dean_the_Young]

008Zulu wrote...

Yeah, but it was an uninhabitated area of space with no discernable resources.

Why would the missing ships have been there? Its in the Omega
cluster, its not like they would have to find remote areas for their
clandestine dealings.

Merchants traveling through, but needing to dump drive core buildup: that's the reason most planets we read about have anything of note. Military patrols traveling through to check that Geth or someone else unpleasant haven't set up shop in the area. Entrapaneur miners who want to find something (which, when you consider that there are worlds in the system classifed as 'rich' when Shepard scans...

Ultimately, if you make enough trouble in seemingly unimportant areas, those areas will become seen as more important and people will look.

So why didn't they just board the SR1 in the ME2 intro?

The Normandy wasn't conveniently infected with a Reaper-virus to shut down all systems for easy capture, and Shepard's distress beacon meant Alliance reinforcements coming too soon.

The planet Shepard was found on had a low mass and a thin atmosphere. A fall from orbit, while fatal (assuming hypoxia didn't kill him first), would keep the body (considering the armour) generally in one piece.

There are a lot of ways people can fall from far lesser velocities in which the impact alone would devastate the body far more than just what Shepard took: it's a matter of chance. Then there's the minor fact that even falling into the planet can't be predicted with any certainty ahead of time: Shepard could have escaped in an escape pod, Shepard could have been atomized by the Collector Beam. Shepard could have been atomized in one of the secondary explosions. Shepard could have been thrown out into space outside of the gravity well, never to fall. Shepard could have fallen in a place where recovery was impossible.

The Reapers don't have to win. While some are attacking military targets others would be off harvesting low defense worlds. 100 Dreadnaughts would easily be able to beat the fleet that would be presumably guarding earth.

Or those other Reapers will focus on the Salarians, Turians, and other militarily important powers, and not bother with inconsequential minor colonies which neither pose a significant military threat nor are necessary for the humans needed to build a Human Reaper. At which point, the Reapers put them off until after the decisive battle.

It wouldn't be a total victory. Considering the size, strength and disposition of the enemy forces, it is going to be a very costly victory, for us.

And for everyone: Earth's hardly the only place being hit, or the only conflict going on. But that doesn't mean everyone will die, nor that everyone who would have died from the Collectors will die.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
I wonder if you could actually write a list of ten people who believe that Cerberus is the only way, and then if that list would correspond with the people you're thinking about.

Last Vizard, ExtremeOne, Dean_the_Young, Zulu_DFA, KnightofPhoenix, alienatedflea, Seboist, Arijharn, Wargamion and laecraft. There we go, 10 Cerberus supporters all at varying degrees of pro-Cerberus support.

Since I know for a fact that half of them, including myself, don't feel that Cerberus is the only way, you failed from the start.

As a note, you would only support someone if you thought they were the better option.

Since when was the option 'Cerberus is the only way' the only other option to full-out opposition? Why isn't 'take advantage of Cerberus before the Reapers, bring them to heel after the Reapers' an option? 

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The action for detecting a hostile for a stealth ship would be... to do nothing. If you're stealthed, moving erratically would be the best chance to lose that element of being hidden.

Not only is there nothing in the codex suggesting that, but it simply isn't true in game. The Normandy flew through an entire Geth fleet over Ilos, dropped the Mako pretty much on top of Saren (they were only minutes behind him), and got out of there with no incident.

[DPSSOC]

008Zulu wrote...
The system where the Normandy was shot down was a remote corner of the Omega cluster. Also devoid of life and no resources to speak of. It would cost (resource wise since Collectors don't use money) more than it would be worth to build and maintain a base there. Plus they already had a base, which was completely safe and secure. Building in an unknown area would require significant safety and security measures since they didn't control the Omega 4 public relay.

You misunderstand I'm not saying that the Collectors had a base in that system I'm saying that's why the Normandy was in that system.  Being a remote corner of the Omega cluster devoid of life with no resources makes it an excellent place for a hidden base of operations because it's highly unlikely you'll be stumbled upon.  As for why the Collectors were in that system maybe they came to that same determination or maybe they were waiting on the other side of the O-4 relay waiting for word of the Normandy's arrival and pursued.  There's nothing in the opening cutscene that says the Collectors were there waiting the whole time, just that they had been picked up on sensors. 

008Zulu wrote...
Their particle beam could have sliced off the engines, or they could have hacked the wireless network and forced the ship to stop. Yet even after they destroyed the ship, they made no effort to sweep the wreckage or conduct a thorough search of the planet.

Still doesn't address the issue that it's needlessly complicated.  They didn't need Shepard alive just in one piece so why go through all the bother of disabling the ship, boarding it, finding Shepard, killing Shepard, and so forth when they can just destroy the ship comb the wreckage and be on their way.  The reason they made no effort to sweep the wreckage or search the planet is, I believe, because the Alliance responded to the distress call faster than anticipated.  They had to flee to avoid exposing themselves.

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

]In regards to weapon's range, all changing position beforehand really implies is that the weapon is oriented in such a way than changing positions is preferable. Whether the targetting and sensors outrange the weapon or not is, of course, a matter of context: space weapons have effectively infinite range, after all.

In terms of changing directions, that's nearly always been easier/quicker to do than radically changing velocity. Not to say it's always easy, but minor adjustments in orientation (which is acceleration) is a different category of requirement/effort than doubling your current speed.

Projectile weapons in space have near infinite range, but not infinite velocity. Energy weapons might not lose much energy with distance (it depends on how tight the beam is, and the wider the beam the harder it is to focus). They would have to be rather better than the Guardian laser defense systems in ME, though as those are described as short range point defense only. Other energy weapons (particle beam, plasma) rely on particle transfer, so are closer to energized projectile weapons.

If they do have infinite range energy weapons, they have a huge advantage. Even their smaller ships could outrange dreadnaughts, and they would be a lot less affected by ship speed or range. There would have been no need for the cruiser to close with the Normandy.  That seems unlikely. Regardless of logic or science, energy weapons are presented as short range systems in ME, and the collector vessel closing seems consistant with that.

Changing directions is nowhere near as easy in space as you think. You not only have to add new mommentum in the vector you want, you also have to overcome your old mommentum. To the extent the Collectors were going perpendicular to the Normandy, they would have kept doing so unless they spent some of their thrust compensating, which means less than the full thrust is available for closing. We do know from the fact the cruiser changed course that it was not heading directly for the Normandy initially. It also seems unlikely that it was travelling at top speed.

Now, did the Collectors get lucky? Well, it was sure convenient for them, and we do have a story to get on with here. But then, we can also justify their luck: they could have hidden sensors (or Occuli) of their own already hiding and waiting, and then they saw the Normandy and told the Collector Ship waiting outside how to arrive.

Stated? No. Implied? Not really. Plausible explanation for a story-telling convenience? Sure.

There is a problem with that theory. How do the remote sensors communicate with the collector vessel without the signals being detected? Btw, my other theory as to how the Normandy was compromised is that it was bugged by TIM, the Shadow Broker or both, and transmitted a 'drop' at a bad time.

There are many potential reasons for why one would not want to keep a FTL drive heated up and on ready... and limited heat sinks for the Normandy can well be one of a number of plausible reasons for it. The traditional ship-limitation of ion-buildup may be another, or the effects of keeping a FTL drive primed might undermine the stealth akin to trying to sneak around with a live radio. Since the Normandy was expecting another of a series of long, extended stealth patrols, violating those would be a simple and practical reason not to be ready to flee on a five-second notice on a hair-trigger, and instead take a 'long' half-minute from decision to execution if they need to.

I am not talking about full disengagement. I am talking about simply having a 'run rabbit' max acceleration course handy. An enemy cruiser spots you and is bearing, so you hit the panic button and keep your distance until you can FTL or regroup.

How do the non-stealth frigates recon anything? The implication is that they must get ganked all the time (although that would explain why the admiral in charge of recon would rather have cruisers than the Normandy).....

[Moiaussi]

DPSSOC wrote...

You misunderstand I'm not saying that the Collectors had a base in that system I'm saying that's why the Normandy was in that system.  Being a remote corner of the Omega cluster devoid of life with no resources makes it an excellent place for a hidden base of operations because it's highly unlikely you'll be stumbled upon.  As for why the Collectors were in that system maybe they came to that same determination or maybe they were waiting on the other side of the O-4 relay waiting for word of the Normandy's arrival and pursued.  There's nothing in the opening cutscene that says the Collectors were there waiting the whole time, just that they had been picked up on sensors.

 

Actually I think there is some lore in game somewhere about it being a regular shipping route, so ships would be stopping there to flush their drive cores as they pass through.

Still doesn't address the issue that it's needlessly complicated.  They didn't need Shepard alive just in one piece so why go through all the bother of disabling the ship, boarding it, finding Shepard, killing Shepard, and so forth when they can just destroy the ship comb the wreckage and be on their way.  The reason they made no effort to sweep the wreckage or search the planet is, I believe, because the Alliance responded to the distress call faster than anticipated.  They had to flee to avoid exposing themselves.

This doesn't really follow though. There wasn't so much as a hint of the Normandy being assigned to a larger task force. If it had been, one would think the distance to the task force would have been worth mentioning as the Crusier appoached, and even more so as Shepard was trying to pry Joker out of the pilot's seat. Escape pods are normally designed to make themselves obvious to ensure recovery. Capturing or eliminating them should have taken minutes at most. They only survived due to plot armor.

[DPSSOC]

Moiaussi wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
You misunderstand I'm not saying that the Collectors had a base in that system I'm saying that's why the Normandy was in that system.  Being a remote corner of the Omega cluster devoid of life with no resources makes it an excellent place for a hidden base of operations because it's highly unlikely you'll be stumbled upon.  As for why the Collectors were in that system maybe they came to that same determination or maybe they were waiting on the other side of the O-4 relay waiting for word of the Normandy's arrival and pursued.  There's nothing in the opening cutscene that says the Collectors were there waiting the whole time, just that they had been picked up on sensors.

 

Actually I think there is some lore in game somewhere about it being a regular shipping route, so ships would be stopping there to flush their drive cores as they pass through.

Ah, even better that gives a perfectly reasonable explanation of why the Collectors were there (guaranteed pick-up point).

Moiaussi wrote...

Still doesn't address the issue that it's needlessly complicated.  They didn't need Shepard alive just in one piece so why go through all the bother of disabling the ship, boarding it, finding Shepard, killing Shepard, and so forth when they can just destroy the ship comb the wreckage and be on their way.  The reason they made no effort to sweep the wreckage or search the planet is, I believe, because the Alliance responded to the distress call faster than anticipated.  They had to flee to avoid exposing themselves.

This doesn't really follow though. There wasn't so much as a hint of the Normandy being assigned to a larger task force. If it had been, one would think the distance to the task force would have been worth mentioning as the Crusier appoached, and even more so as Shepard was trying to pry Joker out of the pilot's seat. Escape pods are normally designed to make themselves obvious to ensure recovery. Capturing or eliminating them should have taken minutes at most. They only survived due to plot armor.

True, though it's possible that an Alliance patrol, which one would assume they have in systems that connect to the Terminus, happened to be close by when Shep launches the distress beacon.  Still most likely "it's the plot" is the real reason things went the way they did.

[008Zulu]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Merchants traveling through, but needing to dump drive core buildup: that's the reason most planets we read about have anything of note. Military patrols traveling through to check that Geth or someone else unpleasant haven't set up shop in the area. Entrapaneur miners who want to find something (which, when you consider that there are worlds in the system classifed as 'rich' when Shepard scans...

Ultimately, if you make enough trouble in seemingly unimportant areas, those areas will become seen as more important and people will look.

So the Collectors decide to spend a month or so attacking the odd merchant or miner scout on the off chance the the ship the Alliance sends has Shepard on it?

Dean_the_Young wrote...
The Normandy wasn't conveniently infected with a Reaper-virus to shut down all systems for easy capture, and Shepard's distress beacon meant Alliance reinforcements coming too soon.

So why didn't they hack the wireless network or shoot the engines off?

Dean_the_Young wrote...
There are a lot of ways people can fall from far lesser velocities in which the impact alone would devastate the body far more than just what Shepard took: it's a matter of chance. Then there's the minor fact that even falling into the planet can't be predicted with any certainty ahead of time: Shepard could have escaped in an escape pod, Shepard could have been atomized by the Collector Beam. Shepard could have been atomized in one of the secondary explosions. Shepard could have been thrown out into space outside of the gravity well, never to fall. Shepard could have fallen in a place where recovery was impossible.

The Collectors chased the Normandy in to the gravity well of the planet. Failing to make it to an escape pod, he most certainly would be caught in the gravity well. While an explosion would be dangerous if he were close enough, there is no atmosphere or any amount of gas for a shockwave to travel along in the vaccum of space.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Or those other Reapers will focus on the Salarians, Turians, and other militarily important powers, and not bother with inconsequential minor colonies which neither pose a significant military threat nor are necessary for the humans needed to build a Human Reaper. At which point, the Reapers put them off until after the decisive battle

And what happens once the Reapers tear through their ships? Big battles where everyone brings their biggest guns tend to be over fairly quickly.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
And for everyone: Earth's hardly the only place being hit, or the only conflict going on. But that doesn't mean everyone will die, nor that everyone who would have died from the Collectors will die.

If those colonies would even be targets. The Reapers were maybe a month away from arriving, Considering all the colonies in the Terminus (their hunting grounds) wouldn't have nearly the numbers they needed to complete the Human Reaper, and since attacking Alliance colonies would draw the kind of attention they don't want, they likely would wait until the Reapers arrive to attack earth before cleaning out the Terminus and moving on to Alliance colonies.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Since I know for a fact that half of them, including myself, don't feel that Cerberus is the only way, you failed from the start.

Since when was the option 'Cerberus is the only way' the only other option to full-out opposition? Why isn't 'take advantage of Cerberus before the Reapers, bring them to heel after the Reapers' an option? 

When Bioware decided that Paragon and Renegade were the two paths. You might have 49 points in Renegade, but the game will read you as having 51 in Paragon, and thus mark you as Paragon. Whatever majority you have will decide who you are more favourably inclined towards. Your either red or blue. The visual system isn't precise enough to make a true 50/50 character (not without editing/cheating). Since in ME2 Paragon means rejecting Cerberus and vice versa, it makes it a very straightforward case to determine who is supporting who.

[008Zulu]

DPSSOC wrote...
You misunderstand I'm not saying that the Collectors had a base in that system I'm saying that's why the Normandy was in that system.  Being a remote corner of the Omega cluster devoid of life with no resources makes it an excellent place for a hidden base of operations because it's highly unlikely you'll be stumbled upon.  As for why the Collectors were in that system maybe they came to that same determination or maybe they were waiting on the other side of the O-4 relay waiting for word of the Normandy's arrival and pursued.  There's nothing in the opening cutscene that says the Collectors were there waiting the whole time, just that they had been picked up on sensors.

My mistake. Still doesn't explain how the Collectors knew the exact time and place Shepard would be there. Dean is making a similar argument in his discussions. Can't help but feel it would save time if both of you collaborated on this point.

DPSSOC wrote...
Still doesn't address the issue that it's needlessly complicated.  They didn't need Shepard alive just in one piece so why go through all the bother of disabling the ship, boarding it, finding Shepard, killing Shepard, and so forth when they can just destroy the ship comb the wreckage and be on their way.  The reason they made no effort to sweep the wreckage or search the planet is, I believe, because the Alliance responded to the distress call faster than anticipated.  They had to flee to avoid exposing themselves.

So the Collectors go to the trouble of luring the Normandy to a remote section, ambush them, cripple then destroy the ship and then forget to claim what they were there for? The Alliance would be maybe an hour away, minimum given that Normandy was the only ship in the area. The Collectors could easily have jammed any sort of distress call too.