1342 réponses à ce sujet

[Zulu_DFA]

008Zulu wrote...

So the Collectors go to the trouble of luring the Normandy to a remote section, ambush them, cripple then destroy the ship and then forget to claim what they were there for? The Alliance would be maybe an hour away, minimum given that Normandy was the only ship in the area. The Collectors could easily have jammed any sort of distress call too.

Let's get just one thing straight. It is never said in the game, who rescued Joker and others from the pods, but it's definitely wasn't the Alliance. Because it's the Terminus Systems, and the Alliance didn't go there in 2183.

Most probably it was some merc gang, that picked up the distress signal, and was paid in the end for their trouble. Maybe it was the same group of the Blue Suns, that later returned for Shepard when the Shadow Broker contracted them.

The Normandy was so deep in the Terminus Systems, because it was the only one stealth ship in the Galaxy at the time.

[Moiaussi]

It is possible that the Collectors originally had orders to eliminate Shepard to remove a wild card from the deck but once that was done, the Reapers decided they wanted him after all. Killing Shepard first might have been hedging their bets.

[Moiaussi]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Let's get just one thing straight. It is never said in the game, who rescued Joker and others from the pods, but it's definitely wasn't the Alliance. Because it's the Terminus Systems, and the Alliance didn't go there in 2183.

Most probably it was some merc gang, that picked up the distress signal, and was paid in the end for their trouble. Maybe it was the same group of the Blue Suns, that later returned for Shepard when the Shadow Broker contracted them.

The Normandy was so deep in the Terminus Systems, because it was the only one stealth ship in the Galaxy at the time.

If the Alliance 'didn't go there', then what was the Normandy doing there? Wasn't it still registered to the Alliance? 

More to the point, if there were no friendly fleets nearby, it again begs the question as to why the Collectors let the life pods go. And if there was pirate activity in the area, why didn't the Normandy see any sign of them? They were patrolling to investigate ship disappearances, and pirates would have counted as likely culprits.

[Zulu_DFA]

Moiaussi wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Let's get just one thing straight. It is never said in the game, who rescued Joker and others from the pods, but it's definitely wasn't the Alliance. Because it's the Terminus Systems, and the Alliance didn't go there in 2183.

Most probably it was some merc gang, that picked up the distress signal, and was paid in the end for their trouble. Maybe it was the same group of the Blue Suns, that later returned for Shepard when the Shadow Broker contracted them.

The Normandy was so deep in the Terminus Systems, because it was the only one stealth ship in the Galaxy at the time.

If the Alliance 'didn't go there', then what was the Normandy doing there? Wasn't it still registered to the Alliance? 

Stealth mission.

Moiaussi wrote...

More to the point, if there were no friendly fleets nearby, it again begs the question as to why the Collectors let the life pods go. And if there was pirate activity in the area, why didn't the Normandy see any sign of them? They were patrolling to investigate ship disappearances, and pirates would have counted as likely culprits.

Maybe they tried to pick them up... but came up with the empty ones. Or, if their target was Shepard, he wasn't  in the pods and they could know form the radio chatter. They presumed him dead, and apparently were OK with it, until Harby changed its mind and began to want to "preserve Shepard's body if possible".

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 09 mai 2011 - 10:03 .

[008Zulu]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Let's get just one thing straight. It is never said in the game, who rescued Joker and others from the pods, but it's definitely wasn't the Alliance. Because it's the Terminus Systems, and the Alliance didn't go there in 2183.

Most probably it was some merc gang, that picked up the distress signal, and was paid in the end for their trouble. Maybe it was the same group of the Blue Suns, that later returned for Shepard when the Shadow Broker contracted them.

The Normandy was so deep in the Terminus Systems, because it was the only one stealth ship in the Galaxy at the time.

Could have been the Corsairs that retreived them, they are Alliance and operate outside Alliance space. Might have been that they were in a nearby system just in case things went south.

[008Zulu]

Moiaussi wrote...
It is possible that the Collectors originally had orders to eliminate Shepard to remove a wild card from the deck but once that was done, the Reapers decided they wanted him after all. Killing Shepard first might have been hedging their bets.

He was the primary reason Sovereign failed. Perhaps they thought that removing him would indeed make things easier for them. Still, Harbinger does continue to talk down to Shepard despite all of his victories and accomplishments.

[Arijharn]

008Zulu wrote...
When Bioware decided that Paragon and Renegade were the two paths. You might have 49 points in Renegade, but the game will read you as having 51 in Paragon, and thus mark you as Paragon. Whatever majority you have will decide who you are more favourably inclined towards. Your either red or blue. The visual system isn't precise enough to make a true 50/50 character (not without editing/cheating). Since in ME2 Paragon means rejecting Cerberus and vice versa, it makes it a very straightforward case to determine who is supporting who.

That still didn't answer Dean's question. Also, you're still wrong. Think of it this way:
a) You can be otherwise be a renegade and save the Council, You can be a renegade and damn the Council. You can be a paragon and save the council and you can be a paragon and damn them too.

Yes individual decisions are an or statement (destroy or save the council, destroy or save the last Rachni Queen), in the end it's something (supposedly?) a bit more complicated.

It's also a bit of a backpedal from saying that pro-Cerberus are 'all the way' supporters to 'varying degrees.'

[alienatedflea]

All Cerberus wants is for humanity to live...now spell live backwards...connection?

[Moiaussi]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Stealth mission.

What is the point of investigating missing ships in a region that (a) by way of being a high piracy region already must have many missing ships, and ( you are unwilling to send ships in to do anything about anything you find?

Maybe they tried to pick them up... but came up with the empty ones. Or, if their target was Shepard, he wasn't  in the pods and they could know form the radio chatter. They presumed him dead, and apparently were OK with it, until Harby changed its mind and began to want to "preserve Shepard's body if possible".

Harby changing his mind was my suggestion, actually. Other than that, radio chatter isn't a reason not to shoot them on general principles.

[Moiaussi]

008Zulu wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...
It is possible that the Collectors originally had orders to eliminate Shepard to remove a wild card from the deck but once that was done, the Reapers decided they wanted him after all. Killing Shepard first might have been hedging their bets.

He was the primary reason Sovereign failed. Perhaps they thought that removing him would indeed make things easier for them. Still, Harbinger does continue to talk down to Shepard despite all of his victories and accomplishments.

Talking down and demoralizing goes along with the whole indoctrination concept. Also angry enemies don't fight as well.

[Drachasor]

I find myself agreeing with Legion on the Collector Base. The Reapers have been feeding people technology so they societies develop along lines they understand and can more easily deal with. Using more Reaper technology isn't going to throw them THAT much of a curve ball in an all-out war. Better, I think, to spend that R&D time to develop novel ways of fighting them that they won't see coming.

As for Cerberus, I don't see how anyone can say the organization as a whole isn't evil or that TIM isn't evil. They kill marines, conduct illegal human experiments, kill military officers, etc, etc, etc. Sure, not everything they do is without merit. Bringing Shepherd back and helping to fight the Collectors were both worthwhile things. That said, look at almost any evil group that had access to vast resources throughout history and you'll find some good things they did. A good deed or two doesn't make a bad guy good, nor does it mean it is remotely sensible to trust them with more power.

Cerberus is kind of like Lex Luthor. He makes a lot of jobs, employs a lot of people, even donates to charity. He's also an evil bastard and an egomaniac who can't be trusted. Would anyone here argue that it makes sense to give Lex Luthor unconditional access to advanced alien technology with no oversight? That would be insane....even if say, he had to bring Superman back to life to get access to the technology in this hypothetical scenario. To add to this, it is quite arguable Cerberus as an organization is MORE evil than Lex Luthor (I'm going with the billionaire Lex Luthor here, btw).

It is unfortunate that in ME2 you can't question Miranda about the more questionable activities of Cerberus such as killing people with Thresher Maws. Sadly, you are only allowed to bring up a subset of the unethical experiments that were done on husks, thorian creepers, and Rachni. Not that those are ok either, as you can't get husks or creepers without sacrificing people, and the idea Cerberus had to "find out" an known intelligent species like the Rachni were intelligent is honestly quite laughable. Again though, the game doesn't let you point out the inconsistencies here.* Part of this might be because they are indefensible and Miranda probably isn't aware of what a lot of Cerberus has been up to (TIM likes to keep things segmented). Still, it is annoying you can't poke holes in her pitiful defense of Cerberus.

Someone mentioned working with the enemy of your enemy. That makes sense to an EXTENT, but there are limits of any maxim like that. Turning over the ability to make Reapers to an organization like Cerberus...that would probably then go and MAKE REAPERS (given their past behavior) isn't a great idea when you are at a war with the Reapers. They simply can't be trusted with that level of power...it does little good to give them such things to help beat the Reapers only to have them turn on humanity after the Reapers are dealt with (and yes, with Cerberus's track record there are certainly some sorts of humanity it arbitrarily decides should be treated like garbage...so Cerberus is not really "pro-human.")

*Nor the other oddities, such as who rescued the crew of the Normandy and why the Collectors tried to get Shepherd's body from the Shadow Broker while Shepherd was still quite dead but didn't bother just picking up the body when they destroyed the Normandy to begin with, nor why they left survivors at all -- leaving witnesses is not something the Collectors like to do. I think some of this we just have to chalk up to problems with the story that were overlooked, but I suppose ME3 might prove me wrong. In any case, there could be any number of possible answers here from an Alliance Fleet the Normandy was scouting ahead for (to help clean up the last bits of renegade Geth) to any number of other explanations. We simply don't know.

[Bad King]

GodWood wrote...

The Cerberus haters far out number the Cerberus sympathizers.

And strangely they tend to be more obsessed with Cerberus than the Cerberus sympathisers are.

[Drachasor]

Bad King wrote...

GodWood wrote...

The Cerberus haters far out number the Cerberus sympathizers.

And strangely they tend to be more obsessed with Cerberus than the Cerberus sympathisers are.

More annoyed, I think.  We had to work with an Evil organization for a whole game, with far too few opportunities to hurt them.

[Dean_the_Young]

008Zulu wrote...

So the Collectors decide to spend a month or so attacking the odd merchant or miner scout on the off chance the the ship the Alliance sends has Shepard on it?

Not quite an off-chnce, considering that the Geth War meant that Shepard was already in a position to be sent by his superiors to chase down potential Geth problems, independent of the Collectors.

Shepard is being sent to chase down Geth who may be attacking the odd merchant or miner scout. Knowing that, which wouldn't be hard with the Collector's information network, all the Collectors have to do is start creating the signs of potential Geth activity. The Alliance will see smoke, and thinking that where there's smoke there may be fire...

So why didn't they hack the wireless network or shoot the engines off?

Who says they'd be able to succede reliably at either? If it takes to long to hack the Normandy, the ship gets away. If they aim for the engines, they increase the risk of missing and the Normandy may get away again. if it isn't blown up entirely in a chain reaction that would make it rather impossible to board on account of being, well, blown up.

The Collectors chased the Normandy in to the gravity well of the planet. Failing to make it to an escape pod, he most certainly would be caught in the gravity well. While an explosion would be dangerous if he were close enough, there is no atmosphere or any amount of gas for a shockwave to travel along in the vaccum of space.

That really doesn't counter anything of the point of which you just quoted.

And what happens once the Reapers tear through their ships? Big battles where everyone brings their biggest guns tend to be over fairly quickly.

If the Reapers win, then everyone including the small fries die. If the Reapers don't win, the small fries never get the battle taken to them. Either way, they were still saved from the Collectors, and credit for that goes to any and all responsible parties.

When Bioware decided that Paragon and Renegade were the two paths. You might have 49 points in Renegade, but the game will read you as having 51 in Paragon, and thus mark you as Paragon. Whatever majority you have will decide who you are more favourably inclined towards. Your either red or blue. The visual system isn't precise enough to make a true 50/50 character (not without editing/cheating). Since in ME2 Paragon means rejecting Cerberus and vice versa, it makes it a very straightforward case to determine who is supporting who.

If you have 51 points in Renegade and 49 points in Paragon, all that means is that you support those actions that gave you 51 points in Renegade and support those 49 points in Paragon...

If those points in your playthrough even reflect your personal views. Not only a fallacy of a false delimma, but a fallacy of composition as well, assuming that because people adopt some views of the Renegade spectrum they adopt ALL the views of the spectrum as you see it.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 09 mai 2011 - 08:13 .

[008Zulu]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Not quite an off-chnce, considering that the Geth War meant that Shepard was already in a position to be sent by his superiors to chase down potential Geth problems, independent of the Collectors.

Shepard is being sent to chase down Geth who may be attacking the odd merchant or miner scout. Knowing that, which wouldn't be hard with the Collector's information network, all the Collectors have to do is start creating the signs of potential Geth activity. The Alliance will see smoke, and thinking that where there's smoke there may be fire...

The Geth weren't confined to that one small area of space, dozens maybe even hundreds of Geth bases could be littered throughout the Terminus. Given that they would be conducting general raids in their relative areas, the possibility of Normandy arriving at the exact one where the Collectors are waiting at that precise moment is very, very small.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Who says they'd be able to succede reliably at either? If it takes to long to hack the Normandy, the ship gets away. If they aim for the engines, they increase the risk of missing and the Normandy may get away again. if it isn't blown up entirely in a chain reaction that would make it rather impossible to board on account of being, well, blown up.

When EDI hacked the Collector ship, the Collectors were able to cause a massive power surge which would have disabled the SR2, all that took place in less than a minute. Thats even factoring in the time it took for them to discover that EDI was in their systems.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
That really doesn't counter anything of the point of which you just quoted.

The closer to the planet, the greater the chance of being pulled down. No medium for the shockwave rules out being blasted away from the planet. The Reapers would have been able to discern from extranet reports that Shepard is the kind of man who would see that his crew safetly made it off the ship before he tried to leave. Once the escape pods were jettisoned (they could see through advanced stealth systems, they would have seen the pods), the Collectors shifted their focus of attack to the bow where the last escape pod was located (they had access to its blueprints). A few shots later and Shepard was spaced. They didn't see Joker's pod because of all the debris flying around.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
If the Reapers win, then everyone including the small fries die. If the Reapers don't win, the small fries never get the battle taken to them. Either way, they were still saved from the Collectors, and credit for that goes to any and all responsible parties.

Thats assuming the indoctrinated armies, quite possibly the Batarians, aren't sent there while the Reapers deal with the more immediate threats.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
If you have 51 points in Renegade and 49 points in Paragon, all that means is that you support those actions that gave you 51 points in Renegade and support those 49 points in Paragon...

If those points in your playthrough even reflect your personal views. Not only a fallacy of a false delimma, but a fallacy of composition as well, assuming that because people adopt some views of the Renegade spectrum they adopt ALL the views of the spectrum as you see it.

You can RP your Shepard until the cows come home, be the Renegade who supports the Alliance or the Paragon who supports the Council. Being the Renegade in ME2 supports Cerberus, thats what the game will remember. It won't take your personal feelings or intentions in to account when it does its background calculations. As I have said a few times now; We are not playing our game, we are playing Bioware's game. A fact a few (re: not all) pro-Cerbs can't seem to wrap their heads around.

[008Zulu]

Moiaussi wrote...
Talking down and demoralizing goes along with the whole indoctrination concept. Also angry enemies don't fight as well.

It might help the process, but I think most of it comes from the sub-audible signal the reapers and their tech broadcast.

[Dean_the_Young]

008Zulu wrote...

The Geth weren't confined to that one small area of space, dozens maybe even hundreds of Geth bases could be littered throughout the Terminus. Given that they would be conducting general raids in their relative areas, the possibility of Normandy arriving at the exact one where the Collectors are waiting at that precise moment is very, very small.

Unless the Collectors attacked one particular area, or had left hidden sensors to detect where the Normandy would be when it went on patrol.

When EDI hacked the Collector ship, the Collectors were able to cause a massive power surge which would have disabled the SR2, all that took place in less than a minute. Thats even factoring in the time it took for them to discover that EDI was in their systems.

That was also because Shepard linked the SR2 to the Collector Vessel directly. No equivalent has occured here.

The closer to the planet, the greater the chance of being pulled down. No medium for the shockwave rules out being blasted away from the planet. The Reapers would have been able to discern from extranet reports that Shepard is the kind of man who would see that his crew safetly made it off the ship before he tried to leave. Once the escape pods were jettisoned (they could see through advanced stealth systems, they would have seen the pods), the Collectors shifted their focus of attack to the bow where the last escape pod was located (they had access to its blueprints). A few shots later and Shepard was spaced. They didn't see Joker's pod because of all the debris flying around.

You're getting farther away, not close, to the relevance of the prior point.

Thats assuming the indoctrinated armies, quite possibly the Batarians, aren't sent there while the Reapers deal with the more immediate threats.

No, it isn't. No matter what happens, those colonists who were saved from the Collectors were saved from the Collectors. Whether they die from Batarian raiding or a freak accident of choking on a pretzel or old age, they were still saved from the Collectors. That everyone dies eventually by some mean does not mitigate any act done during their life that extended it.

You can RP your Shepard until the cows come home, be the Renegade who supports the Alliance or the Paragon who supports the Council. Being the Renegade in ME2 supports Cerberus, thats what the game will remember. It won't take your personal feelings or intentions in to account when it does its background calculations. As I have said a few times now; We are not playing our game, we are playing Bioware's game. A fact a few (re: not all) pro-Cerbs can't seem to wrap their heads around.

Uh, no. That's not how it works in the game (you can be an overal Renegade and oppose Cerberus at every opportunity), and it's not how it works with people who you're talking about. Both are horrendously unsupported reasonings.

If you're going to claim that anyone who is a Renegade supports Cerberus as the only path, you have to support that argument: the game doesn't make it, nor does the game even assume it: Renegades are given plenty of chances of their own to be oppositional to Cerberus. In this case, you have to maintain an argument that I see Cerberus as the only possible path, as well as any other position you view as synonymous.

If I don't... your argument fails no matter how much you appeal to the casual classification system of the game. The game doesn't determine my position or actions: I determine my position and actions. If I give David to Cerberus in a Paragon playthrough, I gave David to Cerberus. Being Paragon does not mean I, or that Shepard, suddenly had a retcon of action.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 09 mai 2011 - 11:41 .

[Nashiktal]

Paragon and Renegade doesn't mean anything outside the color of the bar under your squad status. Its to all over the place to mean anything else.

[Moiaussi]

008Zulu wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...
Talking down and demoralizing goes along with the whole indoctrination concept. Also angry enemies don't fight as well.

It might help the process, but I think most of it comes from the sub-audible signal the reapers and their tech broadcast.

The core is still said transmissions, but conventional techniques wouldn't hurt. Again, even where they don't aid indoctrination, annoying or angering your enemy can make them careless.

(Unfortunately annoying players doesn't always make for a good game, lol)

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Unless the Collectors attacked one particular area, or had left hidden sensors to detect where the Normandy would be when it went on patrol.

In which case broadcasts from the sensors could have been picked up and the sensors captured or at least the prey tipped off. Also, if there was that kind of 'early warning', why would the Collector vessel have needed to adjust course? Wouldn't it have been heading straight for the Normandy from beyond sensor range? That would have been ideal for the collectors, since the Normandy would have had no way to know if it was just coincidence and their stealth was working, or if they had been spotted.

That was also because Shepard linked the SR2 to the Collector Vessel directly. No equivalent has occured here.

The whole 'looking derelict with a distress beacon' trick might have worked better actually, and been more believable as a trap. Of course it would have meant the trick wouldn't likely have worked on the Normandy again later in the plot....

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Unless the Collectors attacked one particular area, or had left hidden sensors to detect where the Normandy would be when it went on patrol.

In which case broadcasts from the sensors could have been picked up and the sensors captured or at least the prey tipped off. Also, if there was that kind of 'early warning', why would the Collector vessel have needed to adjust course? Wouldn't it have been heading straight for the Normandy from beyond sensor range? That would have been ideal for the collectors, since the Normandy would have had no way to know if it was just coincidence and their stealth was working, or if they had been spotted.

Broadcast means don't have to be omnidirectional (ie, be able to be detected from any direction), while the Reapers have a demonstrated mastery over quantum entanglement which can't be detected. Every single Collector is fitted with the stuff as well, so its not like it's in terribly short supply. In the Mass Effect universe, broadcast signals can be hidden by various means.

The Collector Vessel could need to make minor adjustment as a consquence of making a FTL trip into the system: you might kknow or see where you're going to jump, but that doesn't mean you necessarily land perfectly oriented.

The whole 'looking derelict with a distress beacon' trick might have worked better actually, and been more believable as a trap. Of course it would have meant the trick wouldn't likely have worked on the Normandy again later in the plot....

The Cruiser is a  bit big of a mysterious wreck to rely on anyone boarding it out of curiosity as well, so I agree.

[008Zulu]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Unless the Collectors attacked one particular area, or had left hidden sensors to detect where the Normandy would be when it went on patrol.

If they had sensors hidden, they would have FTL'd right on top of them. Instead, they were coming around from behind the planet in Normandy's blindspot.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
That was also because Shepard linked the SR2 to the Collector Vessel directly. No equivalent has occured here.

The Collectors could have established a link themselves through any one of Normandy's broadcast communication frequencies.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
You're getting farther away, not close, to the relevance of the prior point.

The prior point being TIM setting up Shepard to die to gain his trust. Just demonstrating how it would have been done.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
No, it isn't. No matter what happens, those colonists who were saved from the Collectors were saved from the Collectors. Whether they die from Batarian raiding or a freak accident of choking on a pretzel or old age, they were still saved from the Collectors. That everyone dies eventually by some mean does not mitigate any act done during their life that extended it.

It kind of does. If you save someone from choking on said pretzel only for them to die of old age 5 minutes later, then you didn't really save them, you only extended their life by a short while. Same with the colonists, killing the Collectors maybe added a year or two.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Uh, no. That's not how it works in the game (you can be an overal Renegade and oppose Cerberus at every opportunity), and it's not how it works with people who you're talking about. Both are horrendously unsupported reasonings.

If you're going to claim that anyone who is a Renegade supports Cerberus as the only path, you have to support that argument: the game doesn't make it, nor does the game even assume it: Renegades are given plenty of chances of their own to be oppositional to Cerberus. In this case, you have to maintain an argument that I see Cerberus as the only possible path, as well as any other position you view as synonymous.

If I don't... your argument fails no matter how much you appeal to the casual classification system of the game. The game doesn't determine my position or actions: I determine my position and actions. If I give David to Cerberus in a Paragon playthrough, I gave David to Cerberus. Being Paragon does not mean I, or that Shepard, suddenly had a retcon of action.

The majority of Renegade choices in ME2 benefit Cerberus directly, choosing them is supporting Cerberus. If you wanted to be a Renegade that supports the Alliance, your Paragon score will be higher than your Renegade score. So while you think of yourself as a Renegade, the game will mark you as an Alliance Paragon.

Modifié par 008Zulu, 10 mai 2011 - 01:59 .

[Arijharn]

008Zulu wrote...
It kind of does. If you save someone from choking on said pretzel only for them to die of old age 5 minutes later, then you didn't really save them, you only extended their life by a short while. Same with the colonists, killing the Collectors maybe added a year or two.

Um... what?

How does them dying of old age 5 minutes later invalidate what you had done 5 minutes earlier? You were in a position to 'save' their life, and did. You can't truly control someone's fate, but you saved their lives no matter how it eventually turns out.

Also note; there's a bit of a difference between someone dying from choking and someone dying from old age, and if you can't tell the difference, then maybe you aren't really able to argue a point imo... especially this next one.

008Zulu.
The majority of Renegade choices in ME2 benefit Cerberus directly, choosing them is supporting Cerberus. If you wanted to be a Renegade that supports the Alliance, your Paragon score will be higher than your Renegade score. So while you think of yourself as a Renegade, the game will mark you as an Alliance Paragon.

No it wont, it'll mark you as either a paragon or renegade. Not Alliance paragon or Cerberus Renegade. And you can still be confrontational towards TIM and you still haven't backed up your arguments that I (and some others) are pro-Cerberus people 'all the way.'

Wake up mate and realise that not even ME is black or white, let alone real life people and their perspectives or motivations. Maybe if you do, you wont make such untenable positions that make yourself out to sound like an ass more than anything else, and yes, that's how much your comments have pissed me off with your 'assumptions.'