1342 réponses à ce sujet

[snakeboy86]

if at the end i could of put a thermal clip in his head i'll be very happy too bad i couldn't do it in mass effect 2

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Broadcast means don't have to be omnidirectional (ie, be able to be detected from any direction), while the Reapers have a demonstrated mastery over quantum entanglement which can't be detected. Every single Collector is fitted with the stuff as well, so its not like it's in terribly short supply. In the Mass Effect universe, broadcast signals can be hidden by various means.

The Collector Vessel could need to make minor adjustment as a consquence of making a FTL trip into the system: you might kknow or see where you're going to jump, but that doesn't mean you necessarily land perfectly oriented.

Where are you getting this information regarding conceilment of signals? TIM was able to jam the Turian distress signal somehow (even though that would have been omnidirectional), but that is jamming, not conceiling, and even then he most likely was tampering with the nearest subspace buoy somehow. EDI did get a copy of the transmission from somewhere, and it seems a strange thing for TIM to volunteer, knowing EDI would be able to detect it as not just fake but fake in a way TIM would know about.

Unless the beacon knows the course of the cruiser in advance, it does have to be omnidirectional. You have to know where to tight beam the data to. Also, FTL signatures are much more visible, which is why the Normandy is visible the instant it drops out of FTL into a system. If the Collectors had just come out of FTL, then adjusted course, they wouldn't have simply 'appeared on long range sensors', but would have 'dropped out of FTL at long range.'

As for the Reaper's ability, weren't the times Harbinger 'assumed direct control' all stationary? Horizon, the Collector cruiser trap, and the Collector base, all stationary and convenient for tight beam command. There might have been a secondary broadcast from the command centre to whichever collector was taken over, though.

[008Zulu]

Arijharn wrote...
Um... what?

How does them dying of old age 5 minutes later invalidate what you had done 5 minutes earlier? You were in a position to 'save' their life, and did. You can't truly control someone's fate, but you saved their lives no matter how it eventually turns out.

Also note; there's a bit of a difference between someone dying from choking and someone dying from old age, and if you can't tell the difference, then maybe you aren't really able to argue a point imo... especially this next one.

The pretzel was Dean's idea. My point was that if Bioware decides that the colonists die then they will. You can't save someone if they are slated to die.

Arijharn wrote...
No it wont, it'll mark you as either a paragon or renegade. Not Alliance paragon or Cerberus Renegade. And you can still be confrontational towards TIM and you still haven't backed up your arguments that I (and some others) are pro-Cerberus people 'all the way.'

Wake up mate and realise that not even ME is black or white, let alone real life people and their perspectives or motivations. Maybe if you do, you wont make such untenable positions that make yourself out to sound like an ass more than anything else, and yes, that's how much your comments have pissed me off with your 'assumptions.'

Then explain to me why every major Renegade choice directly benefits Cerberus and every major Paragon choice benefits the Alliance.

Modifié par 008Zulu, 10 mai 2011 - 06:40 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi wrote...

Where are you getting this information regarding conceilment of signals? TIM was able to jam the Turian distress signal somehow (even though that would have been omnidirectional), but that is jamming, not conceiling, and even then he most likely was tampering with the nearest subspace buoy somehow. EDI did get a copy of the transmission from somewhere, and it seems a strange thing for TIM to volunteer, knowing EDI would be able to detect it as not just fake but fake in a way TIM would know about.

From college.

Transmitters are shaped for the entended range and direction of signalling: a signal wave isn't simply like a rock dropped in a pond, in which waves go in all directions regardless. You can 'aim' a signal: in fact, that's the entire premise behind various types of radar, and with sound waves a common type of demonstration science project (when two collector dishes are set up to allow people to hear whispers from opposite sides of the room). In so much as this matters, if the Collectors had some probe/detection system to monitor for the Normandy, their reports would not have to pass within the Normandy's range of detection. That is concealment in so much as the Normandy wouldn't see the signal because they'd be purposely directed away from it.

Quantum entanglement, as the Mass Effect uses it, has no signal medium to intercept. Those messages are also hidden from listeners.

Unless the beacon knows the course of the cruiser in advance, it does have to be omnidirectional. You have to know where to tight beam the data to. Also, FTL signatures are much more visible, which is why the Normandy is visible the instant it drops out of FTL into a system.

Sure. Since you helpfully added a solution.

If the Collectors had just come out of FTL, then adjusted course, they wouldn't have simply 'appeared on long range sensors', but would have 'dropped out of FTL at long range.'

The game can use whatever verbage it wants for 'we picked up on sensors', and does not have to go into 'dropped out of FTL.'

As for the Reaper's ability, weren't the times Harbinger 'assumed direct control' all stationary? Horizon, the Collector cruiser trap, and the Collector base, all stationary and convenient for tight beam command. There might have been a secondary broadcast from the command centre to whichever collector was taken over, though.

The Reapers quantum entanglement technology in their direct-control pawns was went into in Retribution, while the Direct Control moments were immune to all jamming (as according to the post-mission reports).

[Dean_the_Young]

008Zulu wrote...

If they had sensors hidden, they would have FTL'd right on top of them. Instead, they were coming around from behind the planet in Normandy's blindspot.

That's not inherent or required at all.

The Collectors could have established a link themselves through any one of Normandy's broadcast communication frequencies.

Which isn't equivalent to a direct link to the computer, and goes exactly back to what I said prior of the risk of such an external attack taking too long and the Normandy getting away.

The prior point being TIM setting up Shepard to die to gain his trust. Just demonstrating how it would have been done.

And you're responses were getting further and further from the point that your scenario was entirely unfeasible because it required an incredibly large number of unpredictable gambles to occur correctly, the failure of any one of which would hve ruined Shepard's body beyond recovery, and none of which actually set Shepard up for easy recovery by Cerberus (as highlighted in Incursion).

It kind of does. If you save someone from choking on said pretzel only for them to die of old age 5 minutes later, then you didn't really save them, you only extended their life by a short while. Same with the colonists, killing the Collectors maybe added a year or two.

There is no 'kind of'. The Collectors were going to kill more people. They didn't. No matter what happens afterwards, what would have killed them didn't.

Your nihilist inclinations don't change that people were saved: they only assert it's meaningless because they would die eventually anyway. Since everyone dies eventually anyway, there is no logical endpoint that saving people mtters by... which is rightly a laughble standard to hold to anyone, though I'd rightly pay to see if you went to a hospital emergency room and started talking it.

The majority of Renegade choices in ME2 benefit Cerberus directly, choosing them is supporting Cerberus. If you wanted to be a Renegade that supports the Alliance, your Paragon score will be higher than your Renegade score. So while you think of yourself as a Renegade, the game will mark you as an Alliance Paragon.

Besides the innacuracy of that last claim, the majority of Renegade choices in ME2 have nothing to do with Cerberus at all. In fact, most Renegade/Paragon points don't come from choices: they come from the far more prevalent dialogues, while most of the actual choices in the game come from character loyalty missions. In so much as Cerberus can benefit from them anyway, because Cerberus is opportunistic, Cerberus can also derive benefit from most of your Paragon actions as well. Take the Thane loyalty mission as an example: if you kill the anti-human politician, Cerberus 'benefits' from an anti-human voice removed. If you don't, Cerberus 'benefits' by being able to spin Shepard's actions, as a human, into political ends and means. Either way, Cerberus decides to look into recruiting Bailey.


Moreover, Cerberus directly benefits most from a large number of non-Paragon/Renegade actions: they pay you the tech bounties from all those items you scan and send to them, they certainly aren't going to look away and whistle when you buy and steal and research high-end technologies for Mordin to create, both in terms of personal/squad upgrades and in the large number of proprietary and valuable ship upgrades various members of your squad comes with. It's Cerberus that gets to profit most from when you do planet mining, since it's going to be their front companies that benefit most from wheeling, dealing, and extracting resources and sending you units of valuable minerals. There are a variety of N7 missions that benefit Cerberus directly, from the 'cargo retrieval' mission to the colony saving trip. And nearly every mission you perform for your squadmates sees Cerberus advance in some way to their own advantage. Shepards mere existence working with them, Paragon and Renegade, has advanced them greatly. Even the ultimate end-game choice of '**** you Cerberus' doesn't actually harm Cerberus in any way it wasn't already, but mitigates their success in bringing the Collector threat to a close.

There's pretty much two choices in which you can harm Cerberus interests directly: the Cerberus agent N7 mission in which you can upload faulty data to the Alliance, and the Overlord decision in which you can delay the project for years/decades by sending David to the Alliance.

[Dean_the_Young]

008Zulu wrote...

The pretzel was Dean's idea. My point was that if Bioware decides that the colonists die then they will. You can't save someone if they are slated to die.

Everyone is slated to die eventually. It's part of being mortal.

Then explain to me why every major Renegade choice directly benefits Cerberus and every major Paragon choice benefits the Alliance.

They don't. At all. Most of the major choices have nothing to do with either, nor are the benefits they can take from either mutually exclusive.

[Dean_the_Young]

Since recruiting Legion and hearing his story, and then actually intervening to stop the Heretic Virus 'just in time', are two separate choices, the Overlord decision actually could have some weight on it. Selling Legion, but returning David, would be the worst of both worlds.

I agree about the Cerberus data choice being largely invalidated, though. Cerberus is already a black name in most quarters already, without fake stuff being added, while a lot of people who kept the data did so on the presumption that it would protect them... which we can now say wouldn't happen.

[008Zulu]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
That's not inherent or required at all.

What?

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Which isn't equivalent to a direct link to the computer, and goes exactly back to what I said prior of the risk of such an external attack taking too long and the Normandy getting away.

You saw how hard it was for them to get away while they were under attack, couple in an electronic attack and they wouldn't be able to fight it off.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
And you're responses were getting further and further from the point that your scenario was entirely unfeasible because it required an incredibly large number of unpredictable gambles to occur correctly, the failure of any one of which would hve ruined Shepard's body beyond recovery, and none of which actually set Shepard up for easy recovery by Cerberus (as highlighted in Incursion).

Whats so unpredictable about finding the least rough part of the planet, calculating its rotation in order to time the attack correctly so the wreckage would crash on an easily accesable part of the planet? A team of scientists at NASA figured out the best spot in which to land the Mars Rover, the scientists in Mass Effect are supposed to be as smart.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
There is no 'kind of'. The Collectors were going to kill more people. They didn't. No matter what happens afterwards, what would have killed them didn't.

Your nihilist inclinations don't change that people were saved: they only assert it's meaningless because they would die eventually anyway. Since everyone dies eventually anyway, there is no logical endpoint that saving people mtters by... which is rightly a laughble standard to hold to anyone, though I'd rightly pay to see if you went to a hospital emergency room and started talking it.

If theres a chance of saving people then yes you should try. Killing the Collectors didn't save any lives, no one can say with absolute certainty that their lives were in danger in the first place. Not unless TIM wanted to test more theories. When the Reapers sweep in through the Terminus systems, they are dead.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Besides the innacuracy of that last claim, the majority of Renegade choices in ME2 have nothing to do with Cerberus at all. In fact, most Renegade/Paragon points don't come from choices: they come from the far more prevalent dialogues, while most of the actual choices in the game come from character loyalty missions. In so much as Cerberus can benefit from them anyway, because Cerberus is opportunistic, Cerberus can also derive benefit from most of your Paragon actions as well. Take the Thane loyalty mission as an example: if you kill the anti-human politician, Cerberus 'benefits' from an anti-human voice removed. If you don't, Cerberus 'benefits' by being able to spin Shepard's actions, as a human, into political ends and means. Either way, Cerberus decides to look into recruiting Bailey.


Moreover, Cerberus directly benefits most from a large number of non-Paragon/Renegade actions: they pay you the tech bounties from all those items you scan and send to them, they certainly aren't going to look away and whistle when you buy and steal and research high-end technologies for Mordin to create, both in terms of personal/squad upgrades and in the large number of proprietary and valuable ship upgrades various members of your squad comes with. It's Cerberus that gets to profit most from when you do planet mining, since it's going to be their front companies that benefit most from wheeling, dealing, and extracting resources and sending you units of valuable minerals. There are a variety of N7 missions that benefit Cerberus directly, from the 'cargo retrieval' mission to the colony saving trip. And nearly every mission you perform for your squadmates sees Cerberus advance in some way to their own advantage. Shepards mere existence working with them, Paragon and Renegade, has advanced them greatly. Even the ultimate end-game choice of '**** you Cerberus' doesn't actually harm Cerberus in any way it wasn't already, but mitigates their success in bringing the Collector threat to a close.

They don't. At all. Most of the major choices have nothing to do with either, nor are the benefits they can take from either mutually exclusive.

(moving these two together since its the same point)

I think your missing the rather obvious one. The Council in ME1, if you let them die Cerberus gets its all human Council. The Cargo retreival mission, Aria gave me the co-ordinates to that world when I gave her the note from Garrus's recruitment mission and saved Patriarch, hardly an N7 mission. I figured it was her way of warning me not to screw with her. Destroying the Collector base has serious rammifications for Cerberus, TIM was banking on getting all that tech to help defray the costs of ressurecting Shepard and building the Normandy.

Since TIM wants to make his own Human Reaper, which would require millions of humans to be sacrificed, having trouble how understanding the benefit to a Paragon for handing the base over. Since the Paragon option is to rewrite the heretics, letting Cerberus keep David isn't in the Paragon's interest either.

So if all the little things are inconsequental or easily interpreted to be benefiting both sides, I guess it all adds up to; Why does the game determine that because you are a Renegade you are for Cerberus? The last choice of the game would then determines who you are, giving the base is a big Renegade boost.

Bioware like to keep things black and white. Black and white is simple, less choices & dialogue to write and code.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Everyone is slated to die eventually. It's part of being mortal.

Theres a difference between natural causes, and murder.

Modifié par 008Zulu, 10 mai 2011 - 01:31 .

[Seboist]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Since recruiting Legion and hearing his story, and then actually intervening to stop the Heretic Virus 'just in time', are two separate choices, the Overlord decision actually could have some weight on it. Selling Legion, but returning David, would be the worst of both worlds.

I agree about the Cerberus data choice being largely invalidated, though. Cerberus is already a black name in most quarters already, without fake stuff being added, while a lot of people who kept the data did so on the presumption that it would protect them... which we can now say wouldn't happen.

It's sad to see the "keep the data for yourself" choice being made into a "send it to alliance" one in ME3. My Shep kept the data so she could see what's on it and to use it against Cerberus as leverage if need be.

Oh well....

[Seboist]

Saphra Deden wrote...

I don't see how Legion invalidates Overlord. The "true" geth aren't much friendlier than their counterparts and they aren't any more helpful either. All indications are that they want to build their dyson sphere and clean up trash on quarian worlds; not fight the invading Reapers.

Besides, using Overlord aggressively could greatly benefit humanity.

True, Legion also never guarantees long term peace with organics.

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]008Zulu wrote...

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...
That's not inherent or required at all.
[/quote]

What?[/quote]If the Collectors come in from FTL via a sensor bot or equivalent telling them where the Normandy is, they don't need to, nor necessarily should, come in right on top of the Normandy. It's bad tactics.

[quote]
You saw how hard it was for them to get away while they were under attack, couple in an electronic attack and they wouldn't be able to fight it off.[/quote]And the reason they couldn't get away was because the Normandy got hit. Combine the Normandy getting hit with a cyber attack, which is a different form of attack, and the Normandy still gets hit and devastated like it was. Combining a cyber attack with a physical attack doesn't necessarily make either more effective unless the cyber attack wins out sooner... which would mitigate the need for a physical attack at all.

You'd be going in circles right back to the initial point, which would be 'why not use a cyber attack alone.'

We never get any sort of indication that the Collectors don't try for a cyber attack as well: such things are conventional spaceship warfare. That doesn't mean their all-effective by any means.

[quote]

Whats so unpredictable about finding the least rough part of the planet, calculating its rotation in order to time the attack correctly so the wreckage would crash on an easily accesable part of the planet? A team of scientists at NASA figured out the best spot in which to land the Mars Rover, the scientists in Mass Effect are supposed to be as smart.[/quote]Because the Normandy's location, and Shepard's location, are not pre-known and reliable. The Normandy's exact location vis-a-vis the planet is changing, and changed even during the minute battle. Even something as minor as Shepard's exact location on the Normandy could ruin the entire 'plan': if Shepard is in the way of a Collector beam, no Shepard corpse. If a secondary explosion trisects Shepard into unrecoverable parts that would burn in the atmosphere where a whole wouldn't, no shepard corpse to revive. If Shepard twists this way and not that, Shepard's tumble into the planet could obliterate the brain beyond any salvaging.

You have two entirely different challenges you're looking at. With the Mars rover, NASA knew where thier craft would be starting, and where it would going. They also got to control nearly all the variables of their own craft's propulsion, movement, and systems With a hypothetical 'best chances for Shepard to live' scenario, you can't rely on where above the planet the Normandy could be attacked, whether Shepard would be flung into the gravity well at the proper angle, or even whether Shepard's body would survive the landing.

[quote]
If theres a chance of saving people then yes you should try. Killing the Collectors didn't save any lives, no one can say with absolute certainty that their lives were in danger in the first place. Not unless TIM wanted to test more theories. When the Reapers sweep in through the Terminus systems, they are dead.[/quote]Did you miss the entire point about Collectors continuously abducting human colonies, and were going to continue doing so in order to get more people to build a human reaper? It was kind of an important plot point.

If the Reapers attack through the Terminus, the colonies are only dead if the Reapers pick out that colony in particular. That's only a guarantee in so much that the Reapers have already gotten the bigger colonies and won the war, and are in the mop up. Which still wouldn't change that the human colonies were saved from the Collectors.

[quote]
(moving these two together since its the same point)

I think your missing the rather obvious one. The Council in ME1, if you let them die Cerberus gets its all human Council. The Cargo retreival mission, Aria gave me the co-ordinates to that world when I gave her the note from Garrus's recruitment mission and saved Patriarch, hardly an N7 mission. I figured it was her way of warning me not to screw with her. Destroying the Collector base has serious rammifications for Cerberus, TIM was banking on getting all that tech to help defray the costs of ressurecting Shepard and building the Normandy.[/quote]And if you didn't kill the Council, Cerberus gets Humanity trusted by the galaxy. WIn-win, and entirely Cerberus independent. The mission to get the crates is the same sort of random-stumble N7 missions as the rest: source is irrelevant to the category.

No one knew the Collectors had a single base that could be captured, let alone that the Collectors were involved at all . Your assertion is unsupported speculation as to TIM's motives, and actually contradicts with the timeline of events: the point the decision was made to not lose Shepard versus the point at which Collector involvement was even known versus the point at which knowing the Collectors had a station as opposed to a planet versus the point during the suicide mission itself at which EDI uncovered that it was actually possible to keep the base.

[quote]
Since TIM wants to make his own Human Reaper, which would require millions of humans to be sacrificed, having trouble how understanding the benefit to a Paragon for handing the base over. [/quote]Baseless supposition... and stupid supposition at that, considering that making a Human Reaper is one of the silliest uses of the Reaper technology that could be done with the base.You don't need human smoothies to replicate, study, or make Reaper technology.

And, again, you aren't actually hurting Cerberus by destroying the base, you're just not benefiting them. It's the difference between not giving somone a hundred dollars they didn't have, and taking a hundred dollars away from them.
[quote]
Since the Paragon option is to rewrite the heretics, letting Cerberus keep David isn't in the Paragon's interest either.[/quote]I already said that Overlord was one of the points you could oppose Cerberus interests.
[quote]
So if all the little things are inconsequental or easily interpreted to be benefiting both sides, I guess it all adds up to; Why does the game determine that because you are a Renegade you are for Cerberus? The last choice of the game would then determines who you are, giving the base is a big Renegade boost. [/quote]Except it doesn't. Even the ME1 import explicitly differentiates between Shepard's alignment and the end-game choice.

Killing the Council at the end of ME1 didn't make you a Renegade and
all your decisions beforehand Renegade, and destroying the base at the
end of ME2 doesn't make you a Paragon and all your positions paragon.
All an end-choice affects is the end-choice setups for the next games: it implies nothing else. If you chose every single Paragon option in ME1 BUT killed
the Council, Humans still seize control of the Council. That in no way
implies that the Shepard who killed the Council was a Renegade.

[quote]
Bioware like to keep things black and white. Black and white is simple, less choices & dialogue to write and code.[/quote]You know what's also simpler to code? Going by choices done, rather than circumventing and retconning all component choices for the end-choice.

But of course, this is all deliberatly tangent to your personal argument of my position, in which the game is entirely irrelevant to what my position and my beliefs actually are.
[quote]
Theres a difference between natural causes, and murder.
[/quote]Sure: that doesn't change that you'll still die. And it doesn't change that there's also a difference between two different people attempting to murder someone at different points in time.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 10 mai 2011 - 04:17 .

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

From college.

Transmitters are shaped for the entended range and direction of signalling: a signal wave isn't simply like a rock dropped in a pond, in which waves go in all directions regardless. You can 'aim' a signal: in fact, that's the entire premise behind various types of radar, and with sound waves a common type of demonstration science project (when two collector dishes are set up to allow people to hear whispers from opposite sides of the room). In so much as this matters, if the Collectors had some probe/detection system to monitor for the Normandy, their reports would not have to pass within the Normandy's range of detection. That is concealment in so much as the Normandy wouldn't see the signal because they'd be purposely directed away from it.

Quantum entanglement, as the Mass Effect uses it, has no signal medium to intercept. Those messages are also hidden from listeners.

Transmitters can be directional or omnidirectional. The problem is that the transmitter has to know where to aim. That means it needs course information on the location of the receiver, or else it will miss the target. Btw, why didn't you simply cite retribution here rather than later on?

Sure. Since you helpfully added a solution.

The game can use whatever verbage it wants for 'we picked up on sensors', and does not have to go into 'dropped out of FTL.'

They can, but FTL shifts (to or from) are 'louder' so the initial spotting range would be even further, and the Normandy should have seen the Collectors before the Collectors saw the Normandy. It is a possible answer but much more of a cop out on the part of the writers if they go that way. Also it would have meant the collectors simply got lucky on course, etc, since they would still have had to come out of FTL in approximately the right direction.

The Reapers quantum entanglement technology in their direct-control pawns was went into in Retribution, while the Direct Control moments were immune to all jamming (as according to the post-mission reports).

Ah, I haven't read Retribution yet. They would still run the risk though of some salvager/pirate/whoever finding their bouys. It is a lower risk if the signals aren't detectable but still a risk. Btw, according to the wiki, the SR2 also uses 'quantum entanglement' to explain real time communications, which implies it is the explaination for all communications being real time. Given we know that transmissions can be intercepted despite being real time and thus 'quantum entanglements', that doesn't seem to be the full explaination of why those signals weren't jammable in Retribution.

It is possible that the Reapers use a completely different basis for communications, ala the Rachni, in which case the Rachni might be invaluable allies, in that they might be able to devise means of intercepting and/or jamming Reaper transmissions.

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi wrote...

Transmitters can be directional or omnidirectional. The problem is that the transmitter has to know where to aim. That means it needs course information on the location of the receiver, or else it will miss the target.

This is an easily circumventable problem: have a local omnidirectional transmitter in the distant area where the Collector cruiser is loitering, and FTL tight-beam to that transmitter. You know where the receiver is going to be: that doesn't change, but it is far enough away to not be overheard. That receiver transmits locally, and then Collector Cruiser can go from that.

They can, but FTL shifts (to or from) are 'louder' so the initial spotting range would be even further, and the Normandy should have seen the Collectors before the Collectors saw the Normandy. It is a possible answer but much more of a cop out on the part of the writers if they go that way. Also it would have meant the collectors simply got lucky on course, etc, since they would still have had to come out of FTL in approximately the right direction.

Indeed, probably why they were in roughtly the right direction and just oriented somewhat for an optimal angle, rather than turning ninety degrees or more.

Ah, I haven't read Retribution yet. They would still run the risk though of some salvager/pirate/whoever finding their bouys. It is a lower risk if the signals aren't detectable but still a risk. Btw, according to the wiki, the SR2 also uses 'quantum entanglement' to explain real time communications, which implies it is the explaination for all communications being real time. Given we know that transmissions can be intercepted despite being real time and thus 'quantum entanglements', that doesn't seem to be the full explaination of why those signals weren't jammable in Retribution.

The bouys can be 'low' tech easily enough, or be fitted with any manner of counter-capture technologies: stealth, self-destruct, indoctrination...

Quantum entanglement works on an entirely different plain from regular transmissions. There's no medium to intercept or interfere with, but at the cost of being point-to-point. The Normandy's Quantum Entanglement system is what you talk to TIM with: all other communications are conventional. If you go to the briefing room, EDI can explain it to you.

It is possible that the Reapers use a completely different basis for communications, ala the Rachni, in which case the Rachni might be invaluable allies, in that they might be able to devise means of intercepting and/or jamming Reaper transmissions.

The Reapers use quantum entanglement.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 10 mai 2011 - 05:09 .

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Because the Normandy's location, and Shepard's location, are not pre-known and reliable. The Normandy's exact location vis-a-vis the planet is changing, and changed even during the minute battle. Even something as minor as Shepard's exact location on the Normandy could ruin the entire 'plan': if Shepard is in the way of a Collector beam, no Shepard corpse. If a secondary explosion trisects Shepard into unrecoverable parts that would burn in the atmosphere where a whole wouldn't, no shepard corpse to revive. If Shepard twists this way and not that, Shepard's tumble into the planet could obliterate the brain beyond any salvaging.

You have two entirely different challenges you're looking at. With the Mars rover, NASA knew where thier craft would be starting, and where it would going. They also got to control nearly all the variables of their own craft's propulsion, movement, and systems With a hypothetical 'best chances for Shepard to live' scenario, you can't rely on where above the planet the Normandy could be attacked, whether Shepard would be flung into the gravity well at the proper angle, or even whether Shepard's body would survive the landing.

The Normandy wasn't buried and simple image analysis should have been able to find it. They would know the location and speed from black boxes on the escape pods, or from the Normandy itself, which had no reason not to broadcast at the time. You find bodies all the time with the Mako in ME1 despite some of them having been there for years (possibly rather a lot longer in the case of the Turian corpses). As I recall the Normandy's sensors had no problems marking them as 'points of interest'

Did you miss the entire point about Collectors continuously abducting human colonies, and were going to continue doing so in order to get more people to build a human reaper? It was kind of an important plot point.

If the Reapers attack through the Terminus, the colonies are only dead if the Reapers pick out that colony in particular. That's only a guarantee in so much that the Reapers have already gotten the bigger colonies and won the war, and are in the mop up. Which still wouldn't change that the human colonies were saved from the Collectors.

Most of these are smaller colonies and it wouldn't slow the Reapers down at all to leave a small 'cleanup fleet' behind to harvest them. Besides, it is not like it would be the first time in a BW game that some place you just invested time into helping was overrun and lost anyway.

And if you didn't kill the Council, Cerberus gets Humanity trusted by the galaxy. WIn-win, and entirely Cerberus independent. The mission to get the crates is the same sort of random-stumble N7 missions as the rest: source is irrelevant to the category.

No one knew the Collectors had a single base that could be captured, let alone that the Collectors were involved at all . Your assertion is unsupported speculation as to TIM's motives, and actually contradicts with the timeline of events: the point the decision was made to not lose Shepard versus the point at which Collector involvement was even known versus the point at which knowing the Collectors had a station as opposed to a planet versus the point during the suicide mission itself at which EDI uncovered that it was actually possible to keep the base.

It is interesting that EDI's solution didn't come up til then instead of being used on the Collector's ship, which would have given them the IFF and the ship itself. The ablilty to wipe the base clean that easily suggests there might have been something more there. Was that a function the Reapers installed deliberately? Is there such a function on the Citadel? Or did TIM want the base because it was something Shepard couldn't have simply flown away with? Hmmm.....

Baseless supposition... and stupid supposition at that, considering that making a Human Reaper is one of the silliest uses of the Reaper technology that could be done with the base.You don't need human smoothies to replicate, study, or make Reaper technology.

And, again, you aren't actually hurting Cerberus by destroying the base, you're just not benefiting them. It's the difference between not giving somone a hundred dollars they didn't have, and taking a hundred dollars away from them.

After overlord and given some of the experiments in ME to develop supersoldiers, it isn't that baseless. If TIM was going to use the base in such a fashion (or even try to), you are preventing that plan and thus hurting Cerberus. Taking away a future benefit from someone is still hurting them.

[Darth Death]

Whoa. This thread is still going strong. I guess I underestimated the passion for Cerberus.

[Seboist]

Darth Death wrote...

Whoa. This thread is still going strong. I guess I underestimated the passion for Cerberus.

My personal motto is "Give me Cerberus or give me death!".

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

This is an easily circumventable problem: have a local omnidirectional transmitter in the distant area where the Collector cruiser is loitering, and FTL tight-beam to that transmitter. You know where the receiver is going to be: that doesn't change, but it is far enough away to not be overheard. That receiver transmits locally, and then Collector Cruiser can go from that.

There would still be the risk of the buoys being captured and the whole system compromised.

The bouys can be 'low' tech easily enough, or be fitted with any manner of counter-capture technologies: stealth, self-destruct, indoctrination...

Stealth justs masks their natural EM signature. The other methods can be hacked and/or circumvented. Indoctrination could be reverse engineered. There is also the problem that they would need some means of holding position against gravetic forces, or else they would end up out of place and again, the signal would miss.

Edit: There is another problem with the buoy theory. If they had time to collect their buoys after each ambush, they had time to shoot down and/or 'collect' the escape pods. Otherwise, they have buoys laying all over the place and eventually one would be noticed and/or captured.

Quantum entanglement works on an entirely different plain from regular transmissions. There's no medium to intercept or interfere with, but at the cost of being point-to-point. The Normandy's Quantum Entanglement system is what you talk to TIM with: all other communications are conventional. If you go to the briefing room, EDI can explain it to you.

Then how do you explain so many other transmissions also being real time (particularly those with the Council)? Point to point again means that there is a conventional signal. If they are truely in some undetectable 'hypermedium' then they shouldn't need to be point to point. At the very least they lose the main advantage of an 'undetectable' system.

The Reapers use quantum entanglement.

Which doesn't change the fact that 'telepathy' can also use 'Quantum entanglement.' There would have to be a margin for error, since knowing the receiver's literal exact position at any given time (on a quantum level yet) is essentially impossible without true precognative ability. As such if they know the basis for the signal and can replicate a transmitter, they should still be able to prevent and/or jam it, or at least mask it with their own signals.  It sounds like the writers are just bafflegab'ing themselves into a corner.

Modifié par Moiaussi, 10 mai 2011 - 05:38 .

[Moiaussi]

Seboist wrote...

Darth Death wrote...

Whoa. This thread is still going strong. I guess I underestimated the passion for Cerberus.

My personal motto is "Give me Cerberus or give me death!".

'Kay... Not mine to give though. She is copywrited

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi wrote...

There would still be the risk of the buoys being captured and the whole system compromised.

Not especially. There are lots of spy satelites around, lots of buoys, and a lot more people who could have placed it. It no more invalidates the system than any other intelligence presence would invalidate it: the Normandy thinks they're out to find someone anyway. Finding a satelite (disguised as Geth/borrowed from the Geth even) would be an expected occurance if there was some presence.

Buoys do not have to have sensitive technology, or even be recovered. They can be purely dispossable in which capture isn't cared about and no recovery ever attempted (if, for example, these are borrowed Geth buoys, or purchased conventional ones), or they can be self-destroying and dispossable, or they can rely on self-destruction entirely. Take your pick by what your priorities are.

Stealth justs masks their natural EM signature. The other methods can be hacked and/or circumvented. Indoctrination could be reverse engineered. There is also the problem that they would need some means of holding position against gravetic forces, or else they would end up out of place and again, the signal would miss.

Stealth can mask EM, heat, radar, visual, you name it. However much you value the system as it is is what you put into it. You don't have to put in advanced technology: the galaxy is replete with sensors of various types, including visual.

Then how do you explain so many other transmissions also being real time (particularly those with the Council)?

FTL com buoys, as the codex talks about. The galaxy has entire infrastructure set up to allow the extranet and FTL communication, and QE is a pricy, narrow-utility aspect of it.

Point to point again means that there is a conventional signal. If they are truely in some undetectable 'hypermedium' then they shouldn't need to be point to point. At the very least they lose the main advantage of an 'undetectable' system.

In the case of Quantam Entanglement, point-to-point literally means that. A QE com system can only communicate via QE with its matching pair: the only link the SR2 has is with TIM's office, and can't be configured to adapt to another unless it installs another system. To call a hundred different people, you'd need a hundred different quantum entangled pairs. Here's the link (about 6 minutes in).

Of course, QE technology is valuable, and so putting such in every bouy may not be desired. Hence why I raised it as a possibility among others.

Which doesn't change the fact that 'telepathy' can also use 'Quantum entanglement.' There would have to be a margin for error, since knowing the receiver's literal exact position at any given time (on a quantum level yet) is essentially impossible without true precognative ability. As such if they know the basis for the signal and can replicate a transmitter, they should still be able to prevent and/or jam it, or at least mask it with their own signals.  It sounds like the writers are just bafflegab'ing themselves into a corner.

In this case, I'm fairly sure it's just that you didn't read up on your lore.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 10 mai 2011 - 05:49 .

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Not especially. There are lots of spy satelites around, lots of buoys, and a lot more people who could have placed it. It no more invalidates the system than any other intelligence presence would invalidate it: the Normandy thinks they're out to find someone anyway. Finding a satelite (disguised as Geth/borrowed from the Geth even) would be an expected occurance if there was some presence.

Buoys do not have to have sensitive technology, or even be recovered. They can be purely dispossable in which capture isn't cared about and no recovery ever attempted (if, for example, these are borrowed Geth buoys, or purchased conventional ones), or they can be self-destroying and dispossable, or they can rely on self-destruction entirely. Take your pick by what your priorities are.

They have to have decryption at minimum. Per the description you cite below (which I didn't find in the wiki, btw), the buoy would have to have the right quantum pair. If someone else knows that quantum pair they could set up their own receiver based on said pair.

]Stealth can mask EM, heat, radar, visual, you name it. However much you value the system as it is is what you put into it. You don't have to put in advanced technology: the galaxy is replete with sensors of various types, including visual.

Can you please cite me a source for the level of stealth you are talking about? What has full visual stealth in ME? Not even the Normandy has that.

FTL com buoys, as the codex talks about. The galaxy has entire infrastructure set up to allow the extranet and FTL communication, and QE is a pricy, narrow-utility aspect of it.

And there aren't an infinite number of them. The Normandy isn't docked to one any time they talk with the Council. There should be a time delay of seconds or minutes minimum, depending on distance to the neares buoy. There isn't. They are real time conversations. By the way, FTL isn't instantaneous either, merely faster than light. Ships in FTL still have travel times. Again, there should be a delay.

In the case of Quantam Entanglement, point-to-point literally means that. A QE com system can only communicate via QE with its matching pair: the only link the SR2 has is with TIM's office, and can't be configured to adapt to another unless it installs another system. To call a hundred different people, you'd need a hundred different quantum entangled pairs. Here's the link (about 6 minutes in).

Of course, QE technology is valuable, and so putting such in every bouy may not be desired. Hence why I raised it as a possibility among others.

So the suggestion is that each Collector and/or reaper minion has its own quantum pair? That is well beyond the 100's, and there is still the position uncertainty issue. I suppose it might explain why Garrus is endlessly calibrating though, lol, since if the calibrations are off even slightly, you are out of communications.

In this case, I'm fairly sure it's just that you didn't read up on your lore.

Or the writers didn't understand the science they are basing their bafflegab on. This is the best lay discussion I could find on the limited amount of time I am willing to spend looking.

http://lightlike.com/teleport/

The section 'can quantum teleportation be used for superliminal communication?' concludes that no, it wouldn't be any faster than conventional communications. OTOH, coupled with lazarus tech, they should have transporter beams iminent and all related tech, at least from dedicated sender to receiver.

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi wrote...

They have to have decryption at minimum.

They don't.

Edit: To clarify, there are a number of different ways to hide the nature or content of a spy satelite, and encrypting/decrypting messages is just one of them. Signals can also be broadcast in the clear: this can be if you don't care if your message is intercepted at all (too late to matter), or if the true meaning is hidden in the plain broadcast. The channel itself doesn't have to be undecipherable to have a hidden meaning, if you can hide the message in harmless stuff.

Per the description you cite below (which I didn't find in the wiki, btw), the buoy would have to have the right quantum pair. If someone else knows that quantum pair they could set up their own receiver based on said pair.

Buoys don't use quantum entanglement.

Can you please cite me a source for the level of stealth you are talking about? What has full visual stealth in ME? Not even the Normandy has that.

And yet infiltrators do: it's a core gameplay power. Simply because it isn't suitable/practical for ships doesn't mean it can't have use in other applications.

Nor is 'cloaking' the only form of visual stealth: static camoflage is pretty old as well.

And there aren't an infinite number of them. The Normandy isn't docked to one any time they talk with the Council. There should be a time delay of seconds or minutes minimum, depending on distance to the neares buoy. There isn't. They are real time conversations. By the way, FTL isn't instantaneous either, merely faster than light. Ships in FTL still have travel times. Again, there should be a delay.

FTL communication via bouys in the Mass Effect universe allow for real-time communication, as evidenced by the Council discussions. You don't need to 'dock' to them, but Shepard and the Normandy are using them in ME1 for the post-mission briefs.

So the suggestion is that each Collector and/or reaper minion has its own quantum pair? That is well beyond the 100's, and there is still the position uncertainty issue. I suppose it might explain why Garrus is endlessly calibrating though, lol, since if the calibrations are off even slightly, you are out of communications.

The reapers have the technology down far beyond what the current galaxy has, as demonstrated and detailed in Retribution. But, more likely, the Collector network is based around the Collector Base itself: while Harbinger direct controls the Collector General (the Dark Space point-to-point), the Collector Base manufactures the QE that allows the Collector General to direct control the Collectors. Hence why we only fight one Harbinger at a time.

Or the writers didn't understand the science they are basing their bafflegab on. This is the best lay discussion I could find on the limited amount of time I am willing to spend looking.

http://lightlike.com/teleport/

The section 'can quantum teleportation be used for superliminal communication?' concludes that no, it wouldn't be any faster than conventional communications. OTOH, coupled with lazarus tech, they should have transporter beams iminent and all related tech, at least from dedicated sender to receiver.

Mass Effect indulging in physically impossible sci-fi conceits? Say it ain't so! Whatever will we do with a in-game universe which engages in scientifically weak technology? Besides go with it and enjoy it, I mean.

But no, seriously. Read up the lore, because that's the rules Mass Effect claims to lead by, rather than the real-life arguments that would first and foremost have a bone to pick with the entire concept of element zero and the violation of conservation of energy that goes on throughout the story constantly.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 10 mai 2011 - 11:20 .

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Buoys don't use quantum entanglement.

Besides these being hypothetical buoys, if they don't use QE, then their signals can be intercepted.

Nor is 'cloaking' the only form of visual stealth: static camoflage is pretty old as well.

They just happen to have static camo for that specific point in space, Gracie? Good enough that it functions universally from all angles and has perfect light absorption (i.e. zero reflection) regardless of angle?

FTL communication via bouys in the Mass Effect universe allow for real-time communication, as evidenced by the Council discussions. You don't need to 'dock' to them, but Shepard and the Normandy are using them in ME1 for the post-mission briefs.

You completely evaded my point, which was that conventional FTL communications in ME seem to be real time as well, meaning everything is QE, including ,btw, the Normandy broadcasting to Shepard and Shepard broadcasting back during the Citadel battle. So they install a 'matched pair' into every suit they find, even the ones you find mid mission that don't inhibit real time com?

The reapers have the technology down far beyond what the current galaxy has, as demonstrated and detailed in Retribution. But, more likely, the Collector network is based around the Collector Base itself: while Harbinger direct controls the Collector General (the Dark Space point-to-point), the Collector Base manufactures the QE that allows the Collector General to direct control the Collectors. Hence why we only fight one Harbinger at a time.

You are evading the point that everyone has Real Time communications. Even stock hardsuits off the rack or captured from the enemy have this.

Mass Effect indulging in physically impossible sci-fi conceits? Say it ain't so! Whatever will we do with a in-game universe which engages in scientifically weak technology? Besides go with it and enjoy it, I mean.

But no, seriously. Read up the lore, because that's the rules Mass Effect claims to lead by, rather than the real-life arguments that would first and foremost have a bone to pick with the entire concept of element zero and the violation of conservation of energy that goes on throughout the story constantly.

My point is that there is a tendancy on the part of some science fiction writers to try to explain the wierd science. They are better off just leaving it as unexplained wierd science, just saying 'They are using some communicaiton system unknown to us. We can't detect any signals, so there is no way to tell how or what to jam.'

It is the same thing as the force suddenly relating to mitochonria, it isn't science fiction, it is just science misinformation. They should leave such things to writers who do know the science behind their writing such as Asimov and know when to leave things unexplained.

As for it being 'the lore ME goes by', ME also has real time communications everywhere anyway, and the issues with targetting tight beam point to point transmissions in real time are still issues.

Modifié par Moiaussi, 10 mai 2011 - 11:38 .

[008Zulu]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
And the reason they couldn't get away was because the Normandy got hit. Combine the Normandy getting hit with a cyber attack, which is a different form of attack, and the Normandy still gets hit and devastated like it was. Combining a cyber attack with a physical attack doesn't necessarily make either more effective unless the cyber attack wins out sooner... which would mitigate the need for a physical attack at all.

You'd be going in circles right back to the initial point, which would be 'why not use a cyber attack alone.'

We never get any sort of indication that the Collectors don't try for a cyber attack as well: such things are conventional spaceship warfare. That doesn't mean their all-effective by any means.

The physical attack was designed to drive the Normandy towards the planet. Since SR1 didn't have an AI to help fend of electronic attacks, breaking through it would have been much easier. And dropping on them in ME2 near the end worked well enough for a surprise, instead of giving them time to prepare

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Because the Normandy's location, and Shepard's location, are not pre-known and reliable. The Normandy's exact location vis-a-vis the planet is changing, and changed even during the minute battle. Even something as minor as Shepard's exact location on the Normandy could ruin the entire 'plan': if Shepard is in the way of a Collector beam, no Shepard corpse. If a secondary explosion trisects Shepard into unrecoverable parts that would burn in the atmosphere where a whole wouldn't, no shepard corpse to revive. If Shepard twists this way and not that, Shepard's tumble into the planet could obliterate the brain beyond any salvaging.

You have two entirely different challenges you're looking at. With the Mars rover, NASA knew where thier craft would be starting, and where it would going. They also got to control nearly all the variables of their own craft's propulsion, movement, and systems With a hypothetical 'best chances for Shepard to live' scenario, you can't rely on where above the planet the Normandy could be attacked, whether Shepard would be flung into the gravity well at the proper angle, or even whether Shepard's body would survive the landing.

Umm, he was dead for almost 2 years. After 6 minutes without oxygen the brain is beyond salvaging. As you might recall the Shadowbroker had cameras on the SR2, considering this, the SR1 would have had them too. The old Broker worked for the Collectors, they would have used the video feeds to carefully plan the attack. The plan didn't rely on Shepard to live, but have enough physical matter to rebuild him should he die.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Did you miss the entire point about Collectors continuously abducting human colonies, and were going to continue doing so in order to get more people to build a human reaper? It was kind of an important plot point.

If the Reapers attack through the Terminus, the colonies are only dead if the Reapers pick out that colony in particular. That's only a guarantee in so much that the Reapers have already gotten the bigger colonies and won the war, and are in the mop up. Which still wouldn't change that the human colonies were saved from the Collectors.

There wasn't enough human's in the Terminus colonies to complete the Reaper. They would have had to have hit Alliance settlements, even then it might not be enough. The only planet with sufficent numbers is earth. Since the Reapers were about a month from arriving at the time, the tactical choice would have been to wait for them.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
And if you didn't kill the Council, Cerberus gets Humanity trusted by the galaxy. WIn-win, and entirely Cerberus independent. The mission to get the crates is the same sort of random-stumble N7 missions as the rest: source is irrelevant to the category.

No one knew the Collectors had a single base that could be captured, let alone that the Collectors were involved at all . Your assertion is unsupported speculation as to TIM's motives, and actually contradicts with the timeline of events: the point the decision was made to not lose Shepard versus the point at which Collector involvement was even known versus the point at which knowing the Collectors had a station as opposed to a planet versus the point during the suicide mission itself at which EDI uncovered that it was actually possible to keep the base.

TIM knew there was a base. Since the Collectors came from the Omega4 relay, it is a fairly safe assumption that they would have a base there, otherwise why bother building a relay with specific security measures if they are nomadic? Cerberus gets Humanity trusted by the galaxy this implies that Shepard was a Cerberus operative before the events in ME1 started.

Dean_the_Young wrote...Baseless supposition... and stupid supposition at that, considering that making a Human Reaper is one of the silliest uses of the Reaper technology that could be done with the base.You don't need human smoothies to replicate, study, or make Reaper technology.

And, again, you aren't actually hurting Cerberus by destroying the base, you're just not benefiting them. It's the difference between not giving somone a hundred dollars they didn't have, and taking a hundred dollars away from them.

When Paragon Shepard confronts TIM, he doesn't deny wanting to build his own Reaper. Since the base's primary function is to facilitate Reaper reproduction, there are no indicators that it can be used for anything else. If TIM had the base he could have sold off the tech to recoup all the money spent on Shepard and Normandy. They don't have unlimited resources, and most of what they had went out on these two.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Except it doesn't. Even the ME1 import explicitly differentiates between Shepard's alignment and the end-game choice.

Yeah, but ME2 doesn't. The ME1 ending merely made you more pliable to Cerberus's way of thinking.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Killing the Council at the end of ME1 didn't make you a Renegade and all your decisions beforehand Renegade, and destroying the base at the  end of ME2 doesn't make you a Paragon and all your positions paragon.
All an end-choice affects is the end-choice setups for the next games: it implies nothing else. If you chose every single Paragon option in ME1 BUT killed the Council, Humans still seize control of the Council. That in no way
implies that the Shepard who killed the Council was a Renegade.

No, but it does imply that Sheapard is pro-human, since the ME1 ending is pretty much the same no matter if you save the council or let them die that is. Hence priming you for Cerberus.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
You know what's also simpler to code? Going by choices done, rather than circumventing and retconning all component choices for the end-choice.

But of course, this is all deliberatly tangent to your personal argument of my position, in which the game is entirely irrelevant to what my position and my beliefs actually are.

So because you are pro-Cerb you think that the game is wrong for essentially railroading you down the Paragon path?

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Sure: that doesn't change that you'll still die. And it doesn't change that there's also a difference between two different people attempting to murder someone at different points in time.

If you end up murdered anyway (by the same group), its chronological semantics.

Modifié par 008Zulu, 11 mai 2011 - 12:01 .