1342 réponses à ce sujet

[jamesp81]

naledgeborn wrote...

I'm neither here nor there. Cerberus has it's strong points. Like TIM said, by "picking" the colony that was abducted he saved 2/3 of the population. If he hadn't known where the Collectors would attack that entire colony would've been Human Reaper juice. Also, the scientific breakthroughs that are achieved by his sick experiments ultimately end up in the Alliance's hands. Cerberus gets dirty so the Alliance doesn't have to.
I still blew up the base though... 

I agree with the Horizon thing.  It had to be done.  Collectors were going to abduct colonies, period, the end.  The Horizon leak let us get in there and put a little boot in ass.  The colony lost about 1/3 of its population, but it did survive the attack.

I can't abide the experiments.  I will gladly utilize anything Cerberus scientists have discovered, but I will not condone continuing experiments like Overlord.

[jamesp81]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

michaelrsa wrote...

In regards to the humans outside the Alliance I really don't give a **** about them. What reasonable excuse could a person have for leaving the Alliance? Based on what the game tell us I can't really see the Alliance as being any more unbearable as living in a first world nation, which is bearable as hell.

As a person who grew up in a poorer nation I'll say right now that wanting to leave the safety of the wealthier nations because of you don't like the way things are run is down right stupid. Sure, you have to give up some minor freedoms with every goverment but in the end you are guaranteed greater safety.

I agree they are mostly idiots, but if humanity doesn't want to look weak, they have to be protected in some fashion. Plus, they have manpower and pribably ressources that the Alliance will require.

What manpower?  99% of the human race still lives on Earth.  Resources, yes, they may have those.  Manpower?  Not so much.

[Darth Death]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Darth Death wrote...

Join us as we, Commander Shepard lose our humanity (by killing not only our own species by the hundreds but genocide many other ) in order to advance our causes! We're protecting the galaxy! Hooray!

Haha the people in this thread are funny.

Yes.

Yes you are.

LOL that wasn't creative or witty in the slightest. Try again.

[KnightofPhoenix]

michaelrsa wrote...
Besides, how can the Alliance look weak when they don't defend people who don't want them to and don't want anything to do with them?

They are supposed to represent humanity. If the Alliance doesn't at least secure an influence over those colonies as buffer states, others like the Batarians would be emboldened to strike out. Plus it weakens their reputation within. It's hard to claim that you are the organization best suited to represent human interest when you don't give a **** about the others outside and are not even trying to bring them into the fold.

Plus those colonies probably have ressources and may be strategically located.

I prefer a carrot and stick strategy, with more emphasis on carrots.

[KnightofPhoenix]

jamesp81 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
I agree they are mostly idiots, but if humanity doesn't want to look weak, they have to be protected in some fashion. Plus, they have manpower and pribably ressources that the Alliance will require.

What manpower?  99% of the human race still lives on Earth.  Resources, yes, they may have those.  Manpower?  Not so much.

Horizon has 300.000 people. In the larger scheme of things, that's not a lot. But it adds up.

Furthermore, Earth is ****ed. Those colonies will become even mroe vital after ME3.

[Dean_the_Young]

Darth Death wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Darth Death wrote...

Join us as we, Commander Shepard lose our humanity (by killing not only our own species by the hundreds but genocide many other ) in order to advance our causes! We're protecting the galaxy! Hooray!

Haha the people in this thread are funny.

Yes.

Yes you are.

LOL that wasn't creative or witty in the slightest. Try again.

Why should I? You just demonstrated the point better than any number of paragraphs.

[Destroy Raiden_]

Everyone can find good and bad in evil. Like the father of Progressivism he thought it was just to have people come before a panel every 6 -7 years and justify why they should be kept alive and if the panel couldn't see keeping them alive benefited the whole said person was "nicely" gassed to death all while soft music played. Some people think this very very wrong others think this idea is positive. Same can be said with Cerberus their methods while morally wrong to some are just what the doctor ordered to others. If your looking for proCerberus personnel to suddenly say yes they're evil and we should get them you've got a better chance of hell freezing over.

[M-Sinistrari]

michaelrsa wrote...

Speaking of that, do you think the batarians are going to take advantage of the the Reaper assault and conduct a whole lot of raids? 

Unless they are getting hammered by the Reapers I see it as a very likely scenario.

I'd be more surprised if they didn't, barring the got steamrolled by the Reapers reason.

[Someone With Mass]

I wouldn't be surprised if the batarians are the first ones to go, considering that the Reapers came into their space first.

[M-Sinistrari]

Destroy Raiden wrote...
 If your looking for proCerberus personnel to suddenly say yes they're evil and we should get them you've got a better chance of hell freezing over.

I freely admit to enjoying a good debate.  To me it's as satisfying as a good meal.  I don't expect to change any minds, and it'd be pretty presumptive of me if I did.  Mostly I'm trying to understand the mindset behind the really staunch Cerberus defenders since so many do blow off the particularly messed up stuff they've done.

I just look at thier actions in ME1 along with what comes across to me as a gloss over to get Shep to work with us and maybe win him/her over to our side in ME2, so with the reversion to form in ME3 doesn't come as a shock to me since I was expecting it to happen at some point.  Equally the treatment from the Alliance and Council in ME2 didn't surprise me either in light of all factors considered.

[KnightofPhoenix]

michaelrsa wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Furthermore, Earth is ****ed. Those colonies will become even mroe vital after ME3.

Speaking of that, do you think the batarians are going to take advantage of the the Reaper assault and conduct a whole lot of raids? 

Unless they are getting hammered by the Reapers I see it as a very likely scenario.

Everyone will be trying to maneuvre to ensure that a post-Reaper galaxy is in their favour as much as possible. Batarians would be the least subtle about it.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Nyoka wrote...
 However, Asari view favorably the harmonic coexistence of multiple races as they gain new insights with each new contact; they even prefer mating with people from another species.

Codex: "Traditionally, asari spread their influence through cultural domination and intellectual superiority. They invite new species of advanced development to join the galactic community, knowing that their ideals and beliefs will inevitably influence the existing culture"

Just because the Asari adopt a long term view (thanks to their age) and do not focus on direct forms of domination does not mean they are not self-interested and seek to advance their interests. 

Batarian motivation is clear. Turian one is clear. Salarians are limited due to their physical frailty, but when their interests are threatened, they are known to be much more aggressive than humans.

Codx: "In every war the salarians have fought, they struck first and without warning. For the salarians, to know an enemy plans to attack and let it happen is folly; to announce their own plans to attack is insanity. They find the human moral concepts of 'do not fire until fired upon' and 'declare a war before prosecuting it' incredibly naive. In defensive wars, they execute devastating preemptive strikes hours before the enemy's own attacks. On the offense, they have never issued an official declaration of war before attacking."

The main difference between humans and aliens is individuality, both cultural and genetic. While that difference should be taken into account in any serious argument, the faculty of reason and self-interest are also shared by the aliens and it is not faulty to assume that they are first and foremost self-interested. They simply have different meanings to domination. Asari prefer cultural domination for instance. Salarians emphasize on intelligence and knowing everything about everyone while not revealing too much to others. 

If Humanity is to survive after the Reaper invasion, they have to assume the worst and prepare for it. Cultural domination can be as dangerous as military domination. If not more so, as it directly threatens identity if on a high level.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 25 avril 2011 - 11:02 .

[Bluko]

008Zulu wrote...

TIM is not in it to save the galaxy or humanity, he is in for his own personel power trip. Now, if you go ahead and point out that TIM didn't have any knowledge of what was going on with all these various cells, then it only speaks to his incompetence as a leader of a secret organisation. He did make a point of it tell Shep that information is his weapon, so he would have known.

So which is he: The evil murdering terrorist these activites paint him as OR extremely incompetent?

I thought it was pretty obvious T.I.M. was not really much of a "good guy". I'm not sure what the big deal is about finding out that Cerberus is going to be an enemy of Shepard's in ME3. Did we not see this coming?

Of course I think most Stop Signs are pretty obvious too, but I've seen people drive through them as well.

Also if you're going to argue that it makes no sense for Shepard to fight Cerberus I could just as easily say it made no sense for Shepard to work with Cerberus in ME2 really. The plot has to follow some tracks, so yeah sorry if you don't like being railroaded. It's bound to happen at some point and in some fashion with a game that pretends to offer choices, but follows a set narrative.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Nyoka wrote...
Absolutely true, and that's why I remarked that "turning the galaxy in their favor" may mean a very different thing to Asari, and apparently it does. Inviting us to join them in the galactic community and letting mutual contact influence each other over a period of a millenium is not something I would call a takeover or a domination.

I would call it an indirect form of domination. It doesn't have to be direct for it to be real. They have a long term perspective, preferring slow and subtle. Human generations may come and go, but Asari plans and influence remain and grow.

They may have a subtle and to a certain extent benevolent hegemonic style. It is still hegemonic (the council system they created is hegemonic), and good for them. Without the Salarians and Turians however, I don't think they would be as efficient and that's why I fully expect a stronger Council trinity after the war. That or the Asari and Salarians pick Humanity over the Turians. Or manipulate both. 

  And you surely can't blame them for not sharing the human interest in destroying the rest of the species or militarily dominate them all, including the Asari.

Of course I don't. I don't blame anyone for being self-interested. Hence why I wouldn't blame Humanity for being self-interested either.

And Human hegemony does not have to be with the eradication or subservience of others.

Well, as a member of a culture that has been dominated by phoenicians, celts, greeks, romans, suebi, carthaginians, vandals, goths, berbers, arabs, iberians, and some others that I can't remember, I can't but disagree.

A recovered identity does not mean that this identity was not threatened in the past. Especially considering the civilizations you mentionned were mostly urban anyways, and they didn't care much about the rural culture that for all intents and purpose, would have remained unchanged.   Plus, despite differences they are still human. Asari have a bigger advantage. They have the advantage of being a civilization that is tens of thousands of years older than humanity's, long term perspective that is unshared by anyone, and a cultural appeal that resonates everywhere.

It would be idiotic for Humanity not to try and learn from them. It would also be naive to allow Asari cultural dominance go unchallenged, especially when they are highly vulnerable after the war. Afterall, cultural advancement via limitations and overcoming challenges.  

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 26 avril 2011 - 12:05 .

[ebevan91]

I just read through some of this thread, and WOW you people care way too much about others' opinions.

I'm indifferent towards Cerberus, on one playthrough, I did pro-Cerberus things, on another I did pro-Alliance things.

[Splinter Cell 108]

ExtremeOne wrote...

You know Op you anti Cerberus fans are pathetic . I am a Cerberus fan and pro human but what the alliance has done in 3 is even worse . They get Shepard to do arrival and then put him on trail. F the alliance and in 3 I will be a total b*tch to them

And Cerberus is better. Especially when they are out to get Shepard even if you gave them the Collector base. The Alliance has no choice on the matter unless they want to fight a two front war. 

[008Zulu]

Now now, fair is fair.

All the Alliance haters out there, I want you to list the war crimes and atrocities they have committed, and since I limited my scope to the contents of the two games, so must you.

[Malanek]

ExtremeOne wrote...

You know Op you anti Cerberus fans are pathetic . I am a Cerberus fan and pro human but what the alliance has done in 3 is even worse . They get Shepard to do arrival and then put him on trail. F the alliance and in 3 I will be a total b*tch to them

For all you know the alliance is trying to shelter Shepard by holding the trial on earth and keeping him out of the Batarian and councils hand while allowing him to present evidence of the reapers to the entire galaxy. The bottom line is we don't know exactly what is going on an for you to react in such a manner without those details seems extremely...extreme.

Modifié par Malanek999, 26 avril 2011 - 12:15 .