1342 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

Teltin and Akuze and Torfan, just to get in first.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I don't know if that counts as a war crime or dangerously irresponsible, but the Alliance armed reconnaissance probes with nuclear warheads during the First Contact War. They could have hit a space station full of civilians for all they know.

[Lvl20DM]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Teltin and Akuze and Torfan, just to get in first.

I'm confused here. Why would Teltin or Akuze be Alliance war crimes? I'll give you Torfan, though Shep is the one that actually committs the war crime (for extra fun).

[M-Sinistrari]

ebevan91 wrote...

I just read through some of this thread, and WOW you people care way too much about others' opinions.

I'm indifferent towards Cerberus, on one playthrough, I did pro-Cerberus things, on another I did pro-Alliance things.

I can't help it, I love a good meaty debate.

Though an intervention might be in order.

[omgodzilla]

I hope they don't force me to kill Martin Sheen in ME3.I always wanted to be best friends with him.

[Malanek]

thurmanator692 wrote...
Pfft nah. the drones are unmanned, it wont hurt any body if the bombs detonate

Except for the people who trigger it or maybe even the people living on the planet it detonates on if they are strong enough. I got the impression they weren't really that strong and more a political issue at odds with the councils "thou shalt not detonate a nuke on a garden world" eddict.

[xlI ReFLeX lIx]

I don't.. I mean I really, honnestly don't understand how people can be Cerberus fans. Did you guys start with ME2 or ME1? Like in ME1 I was like "This Cerberus doesn't sound good" in ME2 I was like "Okay, I understand them a little" but I never liked TIM and throughout the game my like for Cerberus just kept dropping and at the end, yeah, I told TIM to **** off and I hope I get the option to kill him in ME3.

PS: Sorry Sovereign (<---- If you don't get why this is there, its cuz your not supposed to)

Modifié par xlI ReFLeX lIx, 26 avril 2011 - 02:20 .

[TomY90]

Too be honest every organization whether the ascari, turian, salarian, human or cerberus they are do evil deeds like cerberus

Turian - 1st Contact War
Salarians - Genophage
Ascari - lock up ardyt yashi (however you spell it) just for being born with it
Hanar - Virtually enslaved the Dwell
Alliance - Jump Zero Experiments (Kaidan), Nuclear Bombs, Kasumi's Grey Box, annihilated the batarians
Batarians - Starting a war with humans and slaving from then on out, become terrorists
Zolus - Will trade they own mum in if it means they get a profit
Krogan - Started a war with the council races killing huge amounts of people
Quarian - creating A.I. to enslave them and tried to kill them when they realised they became self aware
Geth - killed billions of quarians and caused an entire race to run for their lives
Rachni - The war with the galaxy killed huge amounts of people

as you can see all races have done 'evil' deeds but the issue is though those tended to be because of external influences triggering such incidents whereas cerberus decide with no real pressure from other groups within reason

[xlI ReFLeX lIx]

TomY90 wrote...

Too be honest every organization whether the ascari, turian, salarian, human or cerberus they are do evil deeds like cerberus

Turian - 1st Contact War
Ascari  Asari - lock up ardyt yashi (however you spell it) just for being born with it
Alliance - Jump Zero Experiments (Kaidan), Nuclear Bombs, Kasumi's Grey Box, annihilated the batarians
Zolus  Volus- Will trade they own mum in if it means they get a profit
Geth - killed billions of quarians and caused an entire race to run for their lives

Turian: I actualy think it was humanity that started that war

Asari: Not evil. They Ardact Yatchi (spelling?) kill people, they lock them up to protect the entire galaxy

Alliance: Didn't annihilate the batarians, Shepard did

Volus: Not every Volus

Geth: Quarians attacked them. They defended.. Not evil

[Herr Sovereign]

xlI ReFLeX lIx wrote...

I don't.. I mean I really, honnestly don't understand how people can be Cerberus fans. Did you guys start with ME2 or ME1? Like in ME1 I was like "This Cerberus doesn't sound good" in ME2 I was like "Okay, I understand them a little" but I never liked TIM and throughout the game my like for Cerberus just kept dropping and at the end, yeah, I told TIM to **** off and I hope I get the option to kill him in ME3.

PS: Sorry Sovereign (<---- If you don't get why this is there, its cuz your not supposed to)

Reflex, that is the beauty of a series like Mass Effect; it encourages debate and discussion relating to certain story elements and idealogies. But I digress...

The term "evil" is rather redundant and too broad for a series like Mass Effect. Same can be said for "good,"there are way too many interpretations for it and to put it in more simpler terms, it is not possible. Not when you have so many sides, ideals, factions, and cultural influences. On the point to Cerberus, why do I agree with them, more so than the Alliance or even the Council? They understand the stakes and will do whatever it takes to reach their goals, human centric or otherwise. This is coming from a Shepard whose major decisions were Paragon and understood the necessity of a compromise between all races to combat the horror that will soon come.

To place an example, I will use a much heated debate: The Collector Base. This is where I rely on rationality and logic as much as the narrative can allow. Keeping the base is a means to preserve and study powerful technology. In other words; securing information. If in our current civilization, if we were to discover a new alien artifact that held many secrets and new information about our natural universe, would anyone want to destroy it? What reasoning would support such action? The paragon choice of destroying the base is a waste of information and knowledge, nothing more. Some would argue that it is dangerous technology and it should be destroyed, but under what factual evidence can support such a fear mongering claim? Another argument is more tied with handing the base to Cerberus and their "intentions." If we go with this form of thinking, let us first consider this most important fact: The Reapers are coming. If Cerberus decides to use the base to "rule" the galaxy and isolate themselves in a corner, by all means they can go for it. They will doom themselves first and foremost and all will be lost. If for some reason TIM does backstab us for some "villanious" reason, I will give up on Cerberus as a whole, but I won't be all cheery with the Alliance or the Council either. Cerberus does not have that consistency with their scientific incidents when it comes to providing beneficial results, but hopefully with Shepard and the threat of the Reapers, things will change and a united galaxy can withstand their judgement day.

To conclude, Cerberus is not evil. They just have their own intentions and idealogies just like the Council, Alliance, Turians, Salarians, and Quarians do.          

Modifié par Herr Sovereign, 26 avril 2011 - 02:58 .

[alienatedflea]

M-Sinistrari wrote...

Evil as a concept's been long debated by people with more education than us.  Evil can happen when there is an underlying purpose, in fact it's probably most horrifying in that aspect.  The Tuskeegee Experiment did advance knowlege about the progression of syphillis, but the victims were lied to as to what they had, infected thier wives with the disease and children were born with the congential form.  Even when there was a cure available, they were deliberately not treated with it.  

The doctors involved likely felt this was a necessary thing in the cause of medical advancement but it opened up debate that still rages over the ethics, and there's still mistrust towards the medical profession in that they allowed this in the first place so who knows if they'll do something similiar if they think they can get away with it.

Granted this example's not like the usually mentioned evil of a dictator on a genocide spree, or a sociopathic murderer on the prowl, but it is still evil.

so now we should stop all medical advancement because it might be unethical? the research was essential in the tuskegee project...otherwise we would not have known that or know how to deal with the disease...its not evil...its unethical sure but evil?

Considering that it's something like out of 10 exposures to eezo to get one viable biotic (according to the wiki), that's not a good return on effort since you're going to end up with more dead kids than useful ones.  Looking at Pragia, they're taking what biotics they've got and end up killing most of the kids in a pretty inept trial and error process just in the hopes of getting one high powered biotic that in the end is pretty much going to die early because her system simply can't handle the power.  I don't think the most monstrous of world goverments would be okay with expending that much with only a vague promise of quantifyable success.

hm gitmo prison sounds like a good example..we "interrogate" terrorists to get infomation...to get a broad term, information..reliable? no but its info...

Having a ready source of disposable shock troops does make some sense in a wartime scenario.  However, you're still going to need people to get converted into husks, so there goes the sparing human lives angle.  Equally husks are based on a technology that's not fully understood.  For all we know they could go off on thier own tangent and start converting anyone into husks.  There's also who's to say they'd be controllable since from how it's looked in game that they're just pointed in a particular direction and let loose.  Without fully studying husk technology (control, method of creation that doesn't involve a person getting converted) they're not a reasonable resource for use.

not really...send the weak and undesirables like criminals to the dragon's teeth...population control is in effect while preserving the productive part of society...win win to me

But is that goal worth the cost of one's humanity?  From how Cerberus presents it's case, it's human dominance at the cost of whatever it takes to get us there even if it means losing what makes us human.

whats the cost? at the end of the day, a species will look after their own species...just like you would look after your family in times of crisis rather than complete strangers or animals like dogs...dont kid yourself...Cerberus is looking after and taking care of their own species...sorry if thats called "evil" to you

[TomY90]

xlI ReFLeX lIx wrote...

TomY90 wrote...

Too be honest every organization whether the ascari, turian, salarian, human or cerberus they are do evil deeds like cerberus

Turian - 1st Contact War
Ascari  Asari - lock up ardyt yashi (however you spell it) just for being born with it
Alliance - Jump Zero Experiments (Kaidan), Nuclear Bombs, Kasumi's Grey Box, annihilated the batarians
Zolus  Volus- Will trade they own mum in if it means they get a profit
Geth - killed billions of quarians and caused an entire race to run for their lives

Turian: I actualy think it was humanity that started that war

Asari: Not evil. They Ardact Yatchi (spelling?) kill people, they lock them up to protect the entire galaxy

Alliance: Didn't annihilate the batarians, Shepard did

Volus: Not every Volus

Geth: Quarians attacked them. They defended.. Not evil

Turians: i thought turians attacked 1st because humans activated an inactive mass relay and turians reacted to it and attacked the nearby colony.

Ascari: i understand where you are coming from and i do agree but to some people would be a huge breach to their freedom

Alliance: in Mass Effect 1: DLC Bring Down The Sky the batarian terrorist and shepherd talk about the history between batarians and the alliance which involved humans expanding batarians having enough and attacked, humans fought back and did not stop until we got all their planets. (the system we blew up in arrival was a newer colony of theirs) and you can check the dlc pack that did actually happen between them thats why batarians hates humans

Volus: All volus are merchants in one form in another and they think money and tend to have pre perceptions of other races especially humans being power hungry and not letting volus get their rightful place in the council.  e.g. power hungry race. (same can be said for humans)

Geth: I know they defended but they massacred anyone in there way whether men, women or children they attacked no matter what and did not stop at all.

Modifié par TomY90, 26 avril 2011 - 03:18 .

[alienatedflea]

xlI ReFLeX lIx wrote...

TomY90 wrote...

Too be honest every organization whether the ascari, turian, salarian, human or cerberus they are do evil deeds like cerberus

Turian - 1st Contact War
Ascari  Asari - lock up ardyt yashi (however you spell it) just for being born with it
Alliance - Jump Zero Experiments (Kaidan), Nuclear Bombs, Kasumi's Grey Box, annihilated the batarians
Zolus  Volus- Will trade they own mum in if it means they get a profit
Geth - killed billions of quarians and caused an entire race to run for their lives

Turian: I actualy think it was humanity that started that war

Asari: Not evil. They Ardact Yatchi (spelling?) kill people, they lock them up to protect the entire galaxy

Alliance: Didn't annihilate the batarians, Shepard did

Volus: Not every Volus

Geth: Quarians attacked them. They defended.. Not evil

so wait, now you are making distinctions now? so now not all of a species is bad just some...SO one can conclude with that logic...Some Cerberus projects/people are good and not just all of cerberus is bad?

Modifié par alienatedflea, 26 avril 2011 - 03:04 .

[xlI ReFLeX lIx]

Herr Sovereign wrote...

xlI ReFLeX lIx wrote...

I don't.. I mean I really, honnestly don't understand how people can be Cerberus fans. Did you guys start with ME2 or ME1? Like in ME1 I was like "This Cerberus doesn't sound good" in ME2 I was like "Okay, I understand them a little" but I never liked TIM and throughout the game my like for Cerberus just kept dropping and at the end, yeah, I told TIM to **** off and I hope I get the option to kill him in ME3.

PS: Sorry Sovereign (<---- If you don't get why this is there, its cuz your not supposed to)

Reflex, that is the beauty of a series like Mass Effect; it encourages debate and discussion relating to certain story elements and idealogies. But I digress...

The term "evil" is rather redundant and too broad for a series like Mass Effect. Same can be said for "good,"there are way too many interpretations for it and to put it in more simpler terms, it is not possible. Not when you have so many sides, ideals, factions, and cultural influences. On the point to Cerberus, why do I agree with them, more so than the Alliance or even the Council? They understand the stakes and will do whatever it takes to reach their goals, human centric or otherwise. This is coming from a Shepard whose major decisions were Paragon and understood the necessity of a compromise between all races to combat the horror that will soon come.

To place an example, I will use a much heated debate: The Collector Base. This is where I rely on rationality and logic as much as the narrative can allow. Keeping the base is a means to preserve and study powerful technology. In other words; securing information. If in our current civilization, if we were to discover a new alien artifact that held many secrets and new information about our natural universe, would anyone want to destroy it? What reasoning would support such action? The paragon choice of destroying the base is a waste of information and knowledge, nothing more. Some would argue that it is dangerous technology and it should be destroyed, but under what factual evidence can support such a fear mongering claim? Another argument is more tied with handing the base to Cerberus and their "intentions." If we go with this form of thinking, let us first consider this most important fact: The Reapers are coming. If Cerberus decides to use the base to "rule" the galaxy and isolate themselves in a corner, by all means they can go for it. They will doom themselves first and foremost and all will be lost. If for some reason TIM does backstab us for some "villanious" reason, I will give up on Cerberus as a whole, but I won't be all cheery with the Alliance or the Council either. Cerberus does not have that consistency with their scientific incidents when it comes to providing beneficial results, but hopefully with Shepard and the threat of the Reapers, things will change and a united galaxy can withstand their judgement day.

To conclude, Cerberus is not evil. They just have their own intentions and idealogies just like the Council, Alliance, Turians, Salarians, and Quarians do.          

I see where your comming from. But I DO NOT trust TIM. Keeping the base, TIM will go blind with power. You must think to the future. Sure, keeping the base may help defeat the Reapers but imaging how powerfull TIM can be with all his information, and the power of Reapers? You're getting rid of one problem but creating another almost as big.

Also, thinking out of Sheps point of view and thinking of the actual game. BioWare will not make the Reapers win if you destroy the base in ME3 and they also will not make an "Off" switch for the Reapers if you keep the base. There wont be a major difference. I foresaw this before we had any info on ME3. Destroying the base is only erasing a Cerberus threat and erasing some trouble for me.

Modifié par xlI ReFLeX lIx, 26 avril 2011 - 03:13 .

[xlI ReFLeX lIx]

alienatedflea wrote...

xlI ReFLeX lIx wrote...

TomY90 wrote...

Too be honest every organization whether the ascari, turian, salarian, human or cerberus they are do evil deeds like cerberus

Turian - 1st Contact War
Ascari  Asari - lock up ardyt yashi (however you spell it) just for being born with it
Alliance - Jump Zero Experiments (Kaidan), Nuclear Bombs, Kasumi's Grey Box, annihilated the batarians
Zolus  Volus- Will trade they own mum in if it means they get a profit
Geth - killed billions of quarians and caused an entire race to run for their lives

Turian: I actualy think it was humanity that started that war

Asari: Not evil. They Ardact Yatchi (spelling?) kill people, they lock them up to protect the entire galaxy

Alliance: Didn't annihilate the batarians, Shepard did

Volus: Not every Volus

Geth: Quarians attacked them. They defended.. Not evil

so wait, now you are making distinctions now? so now not all of a species is bad just some...SO one can conclude with that logic...Some Cerberus projects/people are good and not just all of cerberus is bad?

My point is: Everyone/everything has their pros and their cons.

[TomY90]

alienatedflea wrote...

xlI ReFLeX lIx wrote...

TomY90 wrote...

Too be honest every organization whether the ascari, turian, salarian, human or cerberus they are do evil deeds like cerberus

Turian - 1st Contact War
Ascari  Asari - lock up ardyt yashi (however you spell it) just for being born with it
Alliance - Jump Zero Experiments (Kaidan), Nuclear Bombs, Kasumi's Grey Box, annihilated the batarians
Zolus  Volus- Will trade they own mum in if it means they get a profit
Geth - killed billions of quarians and caused an entire race to run for their lives

Turian: I actualy think it was humanity that started that war

Asari: Not evil. They Ardact Yatchi (spelling?) kill people, they lock them up to protect the entire galaxy

Alliance: Didn't annihilate the batarians, Shepard did

Volus: Not every Volus

Geth: Quarians attacked them. They defended.. Not evil

so wait, now you are making distinctions now? so now not all of a species is bad just some...SO one can conclude with that logic...Some Cerberus projects/people are good and not just all of cerberus is bad?

you are pretty much right look at miranda and jacob they are prime examples of the case they are not what you call evil (granted miranda does seem to be ruthless but that does change over time) they are people who are wanting to fulfill their potential and help the galaxy and the human race as much as they possibly can which is noble objectives.

But others in the organisation for instance TIM he takes a balanced approach of the end more than outweighs the means where doing so and so experiments on these people will result in improvements and for instance the assasination cerberus did on the pope is another prime example of this they did this to protect cerberus in their eyes was more than worth it but to others it was bad

[M-Sinistrari]

alienatedflea wrote...


so now we should stop all medical advancement because it might be unethical? the research was essential in the tuskegee project...otherwise we would not have known that or know how to deal with the disease...its not evil...its unethical sure but evil?

I only read about this far on your reply to realize that you really don't understand the points I was making at all and your level of amorality is highly disturbing to me.  I can't debate with this level of empathic disconnect.

[Herr Sovereign]

xlI ReFLeX lIx wrote...

Herr Sovereign wrote...

xlI ReFLeX lIx wrote...

I don't.. I mean I really, honnestly don't understand how people can be Cerberus fans. Did you guys start with ME2 or ME1? Like in ME1 I was like "This Cerberus doesn't sound good" in ME2 I was like "Okay, I understand them a little" but I never liked TIM and throughout the game my like for Cerberus just kept dropping and at the end, yeah, I told TIM to **** off and I hope I get the option to kill him in ME3.

PS: Sorry Sovereign (<---- If you don't get why this is there, its cuz your not supposed to)

Reflex, that is the beauty of a series like Mass Effect; it encourages debate and discussion relating to certain story elements and idealogies. But I digress...

The term "evil" is rather redundant and too broad for a series like Mass Effect. Same can be said for "good,"there are way too many interpretations for it and to put it in more simpler terms, it is not possible. Not when you have so many sides, ideals, factions, and cultural influences. On the point to Cerberus, why do I agree with them, more so than the Alliance or even the Council? They understand the stakes and will do whatever it takes to reach their goals, human centric or otherwise. This is coming from a Shepard whose major decisions were Paragon and understood the necessity of a compromise between all races to combat the horror that will soon come.

To place an example, I will use a much heated debate: The Collector Base. This is where I rely on rationality and logic as much as the narrative can allow. Keeping the base is a means to preserve and study powerful technology. In other words; securing information. If in our current civilization, if we were to discover a new alien artifact that held many secrets and new information about our natural universe, would anyone want to destroy it? What reasoning would support such action? The paragon choice of destroying the base is a waste of information and knowledge, nothing more. Some would argue that it is dangerous technology and it should be destroyed, but under what factual evidence can support such a fear mongering claim? Another argument is more tied with handing the base to Cerberus and their "intentions." If we go with this form of thinking, let us first consider this most important fact: The Reapers are coming. If Cerberus decides to use the base to "rule" the galaxy and isolate themselves in a corner, by all means they can go for it. They will doom themselves first and foremost and all will be lost. If for some reason TIM does backstab us for some "villanious" reason, I will give up on Cerberus as a whole, but I won't be all cheery with the Alliance or the Council either. Cerberus does not have that consistency with their scientific incidents when it comes to providing beneficial results, but hopefully with Shepard and the threat of the Reapers, things will change and a united galaxy can withstand their judgement day.

To conclude, Cerberus is not evil. They just have their own intentions and idealogies just like the Council, Alliance, Turians, Salarians, and Quarians do.          

I see where your comming from. But I DO NOT trust TIM. Keeping the base, TIM will go blind with power. You must think to the future. Sure, keeping the base may help defeat the Reapers but imaging how power full TIM can be with all his information, and the power of Reapers? You're getting rid of one problem but creating another almost as big.

Also, thinking out of Sheps point of view and thinking of the actual game. BioWare will not make the Reapers win if you destroy the bass in ME3 and they also will not make an "Off" switch for the Reapers if you keep the base. There wont be a major difference. I foresaw this before we had any info on ME3. Destroying the base is only erasing a Cerberus threat and erasing some trouble for me.

Once again, you base your "evidence" of destroying the base on assumptions with no basis of any relevant information. More akin to suspicion and a gut feeling, I'd say. In addition, thinking of the future? I do not know how Bioware will handle such epilogue, but it is safe to say that we will most LIKELY NOT experience the future after the Reaper War in ME3 if Cerberus does indeed take "control." If anything, we will get a small cutscene and that is it.

As I said previously, Cerberus does have intentions, much like other factions, but for them to "rule" the galaxy? I am pretty sure that if any other faction was on the verge of stepping in Cerberus' shoes, they would seize the opportunity as well. Taking dominace over the galaxy is a moot endeavor anyways since it will require many resources and manpower to accomplish such a task. Cerberus is out there to preserve human dominance and make sure that humanity does not get the kids table in the galactic arena.

If TIM does get "crazy" with power, I am sure my Shepard can do a much better job at handling the operations of Cerberus anyways. But in the meantime, my Shepard will give him the benefit of the doubt.    

[Golden Owl]

M-Sinistrari wrote...

alienatedflea wrote...


so now we should stop all medical advancement because it might be unethical? the research was essential in the tuskegee project...otherwise we would not have known that or know how to deal with the disease...its not evil...its unethical sure but evil?

I only read about this far on your reply to realize that you really don't understand the points I was making at all and your level of amorality is highly disturbing to me.  I can't debate with this level of empathic disconnect.

I read all of it and am just really, really hoping he/she is playing the Devils Advocate....it was very disturbing.

[PMC65]

Cerberus vs Alliance ... Hmmm. Makes me think FBI vs CIA - nope, I don't trust either. They are working together in a very dark alley. My Shep doesn't trust any organization or species ... She just trusts individuals who have proven themselves. Because she trusts Wrex, does not mean she trusts krogans, trusts Tali, nope on quarians, etc.