The turians opened fire at Relay 314 instead of attempting communication or contact. Humans had a right to defend themselves, especially after the turians followed and put a siege on Shanxi.
Cerberus is more evil than most people realise.
Débuté par
008Zulu
, avril 25 2011 11:32
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#177
Posté 26 avril 2011 - 05:00
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After both MEs I can confidently say the reason I don't like Cerberus is that at this point I am practically their go to cleaner and yet I have yet to receive consistent payment.
In all seriousness I don't like Cerberus at all, I mean I understand their goals and to an extent I agree with their intentions. I will even acknowledge the necessity of having an organization(s) with the sole goal of furthering Human advancement. That said here is where my problem with Cerberus and all other organizations that do this sort of thing lie. They don't play by the rules, fine that's cool with me; they do not let moral or ethical boundaries get in the way of advancement, okay I can see why. Sure you can justify all you do as a necessity for human survival and prosperity. But IMO as patriotic as you and the people that work with you are, if you are not willing to martyr or sacrifice yourself then you have no right to martyr or sacrifice others.
In all seriousness I don't like Cerberus at all, I mean I understand their goals and to an extent I agree with their intentions. I will even acknowledge the necessity of having an organization(s) with the sole goal of furthering Human advancement. That said here is where my problem with Cerberus and all other organizations that do this sort of thing lie. They don't play by the rules, fine that's cool with me; they do not let moral or ethical boundaries get in the way of advancement, okay I can see why. Sure you can justify all you do as a necessity for human survival and prosperity. But IMO as patriotic as you and the people that work with you are, if you are not willing to martyr or sacrifice yourself then you have no right to martyr or sacrifice others.
#178
Posté 26 avril 2011 - 05:04
Kaiser Shepard
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Woah, we have a NegaZulu now as well?
#179
Posté 26 avril 2011 - 05:53
Arijharn
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Herr Sovereign wrote...
Once again, you base your "evidence" of destroying the base on assumptions with no basis of any relevant information. More akin to suspicion and a gut feeling, I'd say. In addition, thinking of the future? I do not know how Bioware will handle such epilogue, but it is safe to say that we will most LIKELY NOT experience the future after the Reaper War in ME3 if Cerberus does indeed take "control." If anything, we will get a small cutscene and that is it.
As I said previously, Cerberus does have intentions, much like other factions, but for them to "rule" the galaxy? I am pretty sure that if any other faction was on the verge of stepping in Cerberus' shoes, they would seize the opportunity as well. Taking dominace over the galaxy is a moot endeavor anyways since it will require many resources and manpower to accomplish such a task. Cerberus is out there to preserve human dominance and make sure that humanity does not get the kids table in the galactic arena.
If TIM does get "crazy" with power, I am sure my Shepard can do a much better job at handling the operations of Cerberus anyways. But in the meantime, my Shepard will give him the benefit of the doubt.
My thoughts exactly. I therefore like you.
Seriously though, I trust TIM as far as the Reapers are concerned, after that is a different story altogether. Having said that, I think Cerberus fulfills an important role, and like it or not even if 'bad' the simple fact is that the Alliance needed biotic's introduced to their their prospective recruits because in the event of war with a biotic capable race, we would fall.
#180
Posté 26 avril 2011 - 06:03
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Kaiser Shepard wrote...
Woah, we have a NegaZulu now as well?
Well Cerberus is evil, so more of a PosiZulu.
Probes with demo nukes, thats one. Got a long list to match/beat if you want to prove Alliance is worse than Cerberus.
#181
Posté 26 avril 2011 - 06:15
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008Zulu wrote...
Kaiser Shepard wrote...
Woah, we have a NegaZulu now as well?
Well Cerberus is evil, so more of a PosiZulu.
Probes with demo nukes, thats one. Got a long list to match/beat if you want to prove Alliance is worse than Cerberus.
The Alliance spawned Cerberus, how about that?
#182
Posté 26 avril 2011 - 06:34
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I appreciate your statement and I agree with your point regarding TIM. Whether or not he will become an issue, that will be a time for later, not now. The Reapers should take first priority above anything else.Arijharn wrote...
Herr Sovereign wrote...
Once again, you base your "evidence" of destroying the base on assumptions with no basis of any relevant information. More akin to suspicion and a gut feeling, I'd say. In addition, thinking of the future? I do not know how Bioware will handle such epilogue, but it is safe to say that we will most LIKELY NOT experience the future after the Reaper War in ME3 if Cerberus does indeed take "control." If anything, we will get a small cutscene and that is it.
As I said previously, Cerberus does have intentions, much like other factions, but for them to "rule" the galaxy? I am pretty sure that if any other faction was on the verge of stepping in Cerberus' shoes, they would seize the opportunity as well. Taking dominace over the galaxy is a moot endeavor anyways since it will require many resources and manpower to accomplish such a task. Cerberus is out there to preserve human dominance and make sure that humanity does not get the kids table in the galactic arena.
If TIM does get "crazy" with power, I am sure my Shepard can do a much better job at handling the operations of Cerberus anyways. But in the meantime, my Shepard will give him the benefit of the doubt.
My thoughts exactly. I therefore like you.
Seriously though, I trust TIM as far as the Reapers are concerned, after that is a different story altogether. Having said that, I think Cerberus fulfills an important role, and like it or not even if 'bad' the simple fact is that the Alliance needed biotic's introduced to their their prospective recruits because in the event of war with a biotic capable race, we would fall.
#183
Posté 26 avril 2011 - 06:47
dreman9999
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Let get some facts straght before we call who evil.
Cerburus started as a rage tag group fighting turian in the first contact war who are connected to General Williams. During that time they captured a General Named Desolas who was moving a strang alian artifact guard by super strong turians. During this time while saving a friend ,TIM whos name is Jake Harper is alter to the state he is to day. He and his 2 alias are captured but sent home shortly due to the war ending. TIM then with his new abilities track Desolas and his group to try tolearn more about the artifact.... But are capture. They are taken to Palvin and find out that the artifact is a devolution divice used by a super advance race to control organics and with the help of a curtin Spectre, destory it , but not with out losing everyone in the group to do it. TIM is the only seviving human and with the knowlege of a super advance race out in space coming to destory everyone, he tries to bring humanity up to speed to power to fight back. He then makes his perposal to the Alliance and ceburus becomes an offical part of the Alliance.....Years later he find out these super advance aliens are called reapers.
During this time he tries to do and inlist anyway to forcefully push humanity forward to the stars and power. He had a Pope assasinated who was xenophoic to get a new one in that can influace religous human start relations with space and alians. After finding out enzo has a chance to give human embreos biotic powers, he commission a series of enzo accidents to lace the population though out the years with enzo so anyone pregnat would have a chance to have biotic children. Many people died,many babies were born dead or cripled, and many were born as biotics. This created the vast majority of human biotics in the field. He commission experiments to control geth, threasher maws,rachni, husk and creepers. He commission experimentation on children to see how far human biotic can go, and could only do it on children due to the fact that the majority of biotic are children. He backstabed, lied, cheated, and minipulated any way to get humanity more power. He's even the reason why the sr1 was made it the first place. Yes, he did all these horrible things and why......Because he looked into the darkness and saw something so great, that it made humans look like ants.
He new about the reaper before even knowing what they were and gave us a head start.
I may hate him still, but he's not as evil and we think he is.
Cerburus started as a rage tag group fighting turian in the first contact war who are connected to General Williams. During that time they captured a General Named Desolas who was moving a strang alian artifact guard by super strong turians. During this time while saving a friend ,TIM whos name is Jake Harper is alter to the state he is to day. He and his 2 alias are captured but sent home shortly due to the war ending. TIM then with his new abilities track Desolas and his group to try tolearn more about the artifact.... But are capture. They are taken to Palvin and find out that the artifact is a devolution divice used by a super advance race to control organics and with the help of a curtin Spectre, destory it , but not with out losing everyone in the group to do it. TIM is the only seviving human and with the knowlege of a super advance race out in space coming to destory everyone, he tries to bring humanity up to speed to power to fight back. He then makes his perposal to the Alliance and ceburus becomes an offical part of the Alliance.....Years later he find out these super advance aliens are called reapers.
During this time he tries to do and inlist anyway to forcefully push humanity forward to the stars and power. He had a Pope assasinated who was xenophoic to get a new one in that can influace religous human start relations with space and alians. After finding out enzo has a chance to give human embreos biotic powers, he commission a series of enzo accidents to lace the population though out the years with enzo so anyone pregnat would have a chance to have biotic children. Many people died,many babies were born dead or cripled, and many were born as biotics. This created the vast majority of human biotics in the field. He commission experiments to control geth, threasher maws,rachni, husk and creepers. He commission experimentation on children to see how far human biotic can go, and could only do it on children due to the fact that the majority of biotic are children. He backstabed, lied, cheated, and minipulated any way to get humanity more power. He's even the reason why the sr1 was made it the first place. Yes, he did all these horrible things and why......Because he looked into the darkness and saw something so great, that it made humans look like ants.
He new about the reaper before even knowing what they were and gave us a head start.
I may hate him still, but he's not as evil and we think he is.
Modifié par dreman9999, 26 avril 2011 - 06:48 .
#184
Posté 26 avril 2011 - 06:49
Arijharn
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Unsurprisingly Sovereign, I agree with that too. Dismissing the tactical options that the CB provided (without turning this too much into another one of those threads again) because of TIM or fears of that Cerberus may represent is very much a case of 'cutting off ones nose to spite the face' I feel.
It's amazing that people are so quick to blame Cerberus for pretty much everything that they do, but I don't recall seeing as many threads about the 'evils' that the Alliance perpetrate (I mean, you'd have to be pretty 'evil' to sanction the development of an organisation many believe to be evil, or is that just too logical?) or even the 'old boys club' as represented by the Council.
Many people like to point out that Cerberus is evil for example because they assassinated a pope (I can't really consider that act to be 'evil' per say, if only because a black ops organisation should probably be doing what a black ops organisation does. If it's 'black ops' then I would believe that they are supposed to operate outside the boundaries of traditional law) whereas they forget to point out (rather conveniently I feel) that the only reason that the pope was assassinated was to bring the Salarian's and humans closer together.
Even if that was done with ulterior motives, surely there aren't people out there who are honestly naive enough to think that alliances and diplomacy is built on the concept of friendship? It's build around the idea of mutual advantage, if friendship can result from that, then that's good... but that isn't the point.
It's amazing that people are so quick to blame Cerberus for pretty much everything that they do, but I don't recall seeing as many threads about the 'evils' that the Alliance perpetrate (I mean, you'd have to be pretty 'evil' to sanction the development of an organisation many believe to be evil, or is that just too logical?) or even the 'old boys club' as represented by the Council.
Many people like to point out that Cerberus is evil for example because they assassinated a pope (I can't really consider that act to be 'evil' per say, if only because a black ops organisation should probably be doing what a black ops organisation does. If it's 'black ops' then I would believe that they are supposed to operate outside the boundaries of traditional law) whereas they forget to point out (rather conveniently I feel) that the only reason that the pope was assassinated was to bring the Salarian's and humans closer together.
Even if that was done with ulterior motives, surely there aren't people out there who are honestly naive enough to think that alliances and diplomacy is built on the concept of friendship? It's build around the idea of mutual advantage, if friendship can result from that, then that's good... but that isn't the point.
#185
Posté 26 avril 2011 - 07:03
dreman9999
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You can always say it was a Xenophobic Pope that was holding us back.Arijharn wrote...
Unsurprisingly Sovereign, I agree with that too. Dismissing the tactical options that the CB provided (without turning this too much into another one of those threads again) because of TIM or fears of that Cerberus may represent is very much a case of 'cutting off ones nose to spite the face' I feel.
It's amazing that people are so quick to blame Cerberus for pretty much everything that they do, but I don't recall seeing as many threads about the 'evils' that the Alliance perpetrate (I mean, you'd have to be pretty 'evil' to sanction the development of an organisation many believe to be evil, or is that just too logical?) or even the 'old boys club' as represented by the Council.
Many people like to point out that Cerberus is evil for example because they assassinated a pope (I can't really consider that act to be 'evil' per say, if only because a black ops organisation should probably be doing what a black ops organisation does. If it's 'black ops' then I would believe that they are supposed to operate outside the boundaries of traditional law) whereas they forget to point out (rather conveniently I feel) that the only reason that the pope was assassinated was to bring the Salarian's and humans closer together.
Even if that was done with ulterior motives, surely there aren't people out there who are honestly naive enough to think that alliances and diplomacy is built on the concept of friendship? It's build around the idea of mutual advantage, if friendship can result from that, then that's good... but that isn't the point.
#186
Posté 26 avril 2011 - 07:14
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Great points. Cerberus has been a major asset against the fight of the reapers than most would claim. They brought Shepard back to life; a catalyst to the war and the sole reason why the galaxy still has a chance. They allowed Shepard to accomplish missions the way he/she deemed necessary, with some minor exceptions. It it was not for Cerberus, Shepard would still be dead and the galaxy doomed. Many don't acknowledge this and dismiss it as a plot device used to push the overall narrative further. I see it as an exceptional organization that is willing to make the necessary risks to accomplish impossble goals for the betterment of Humanity and the understanding of the universe. As TIM eloquently put it, blind idealism and ignoring the grand scheme of things is what made the Alliance and the Council dismiss the claims of the Reapers, with the exception of Anderson and Hackett.Arijharn wrote...
Unsurprisingly Sovereign, I agree with that too. Dismissing the tactical options that the CB provided (without turning this too much into another one of those threads again) because of TIM or fears of that Cerberus may represent is very much a case of 'cutting off ones nose to spite the face' I feel.
It's amazing that people are so quick to blame Cerberus for pretty much everything that they do, but I don't recall seeing as many threads about the 'evils' that the Alliance perpetrate (I mean, you'd have to be pretty 'evil' to sanction the development of an organisation many believe to be evil, or is that just too logical?) or even the 'old boys club' as represented by the Council.
Many people like to point out that Cerberus is evil for example because they assassinated a pope (I can't really consider that act to be 'evil' per say, if only because a black ops organisation should probably be doing what a black ops organisation does. If it's 'black ops' then I would believe that they are supposed to operate outside the boundaries of traditional law) whereas they forget to point out (rather conveniently I feel) that the only reason that the pope was assassinated was to bring the Salarian's and humans closer together.
Even if that was done with ulterior motives, surely there aren't people out there who are honestly naive enough to think that alliances and diplomacy is built on the concept of friendship? It's build around the idea of mutual advantage, if friendship can result from that, then that's good... but that isn't the point.
#187
Guest_wiggles_*
Posté 26 avril 2011 - 07:20
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I find it particularly amazing regarding the Council. The Council is a body that has practiced genocide, allowed genocide to happen, and is basically a dictatorship. Despite this, many would rather hand them the Collector base rather than Cerberus. I simply can't understand that reasoning.It's amazing that people are so quick to blame Cerberus for pretty much everything that they do, but I don't recall seeing as many threads about the 'evils' that the Alliance perpetrate (I mean, you'd have to be pretty 'evil' to sanction the development of an organisation many believe to be evil, or is that just too logical?) or even the 'old boys club' as represented by the Council.
#188
Posté 26 avril 2011 - 07:22
ExtremeOne
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Cerberus is not evil . Bioware is turning them evil for no reason at all
#189
Posté 26 avril 2011 - 07:26
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wiggles89 wrote...
I find it particularly amazing regarding the Council. The Council is a body that has practiced genocide, allowed genocide to happen, and is basically a dictatorship. Despite this, many would rather hand them the Collector base rather than Cerberus. I simply can't understand that reasoning.It's amazing that people are so quick to blame Cerberus for pretty much everything that they do, but I don't recall seeing as many threads about the 'evils' that the Alliance perpetrate (I mean, you'd have to be pretty 'evil' to sanction the development of an organisation many believe to be evil, or is that just too logical?) or even the 'old boys club' as represented by the Council.
It's also a Salarian/Asari/Turian racial caste good ol' boys club that shuns other species that aren't part of the clique. They refuse to allow the species that engineered the galactic economy to join the council(Volus), they refused to assist the Quarians against the Geth(and then kicked them out of the Citadel) and encouraged humans to colonize Batarian claimed worlds and then refused to assist the humans when they were attacked by them.
#190
Posté 26 avril 2011 - 07:28
Arijharn
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dreman9999 wrote...
You can always say it was a Xenophobic Pope that was holding us back.
Yep, but it doesn't really change anything I think. In the end, the pope was removed because he was a destabilising presence, and in the end it brought two races closer together. Semantics aside, the result was achieved and two species benefited from it.
Cerberus is unethical, but that doesn't mean 'evil.'
Even Teltin's principle was sound, and while the researchers got out of control and that does obviously reflect badly on Cerberus, it wasn't Cerberus themselves who told them to perform experiments wily nily (or rather, to what extent is unknown, I find it hard to believe that even Cerberus would so want to 'waste resources' to the extent that seems to be prevalent in that operation).
#191
Posté 26 avril 2011 - 07:31
Herr Sovereign
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I would not jump to conclusions yet on the "fight against Cerberus" story element of ME3 until they provide us a logical reason for it. If Bioware doesn't and they did it for portraying Cerberus as evil, then I will be disappointed. More so if they did not give us a choice regarding how we handle such a situation, especially to those who have agreed and supported them from ME2 and onwards.ExtremeOne wrote...
Cerberus is not evil . Bioware is turning them evil for no reason at all
#192
Posté 26 avril 2011 - 07:34
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Sovereign is indoctrinating us all!!!
#193
Posté 26 avril 2011 - 07:35
Last Vizard
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ExtremeOne wrote...
Cerberus is not evil . Bioware is turning them evil for no reason at all
Yes they are evil, the point is that they are the lesser of two evils... the other being Reaper/alien dominance over humans.
#194
Posté 26 avril 2011 - 07:37
ExtremeOne
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Herr Sovereign wrote...
I would not jump to conclusions yet on the "fight against Cerberus" story element of ME3 until they provide us a logical reason for it. If Bioware doesn't and they did it for portraying Cerberus as evil, then I will be disappointed. More so if they did not give us a choice regarding how we handle such a situation, especially to those who have agreed and supported them from ME2 and onwards.ExtremeOne wrote...
Cerberus is not evil . Bioware is turning them evil for no reason at all
I agree and I hope it is logical or else they will catch hell
#195
Posté 26 avril 2011 - 07:37
ExtremeOne
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Last Vizard wrote...
ExtremeOne wrote...
Cerberus is not evil . Bioware is turning them evil for no reason at all
Yes they are evil, the point is that they are the lesser of two evils... the other being Reaper/alien dominance over humans.
The reapers are worse than they are
#196
Posté 26 avril 2011 - 07:48
Arijharn
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Last Vizard wrote...
ExtremeOne wrote...
Cerberus is not evil . Bioware is turning them evil for no reason at all
Yes they are evil, the point is that they are the lesser of two evils... the other being Reaper/alien dominance over humans.
Forgive me for getting caught up in semantics here, but 'evil' is too strong a word imo. When I think of evil I think of harm purposely committed for no other reason than to just cause harm.
Personally, I think to label something as evil is nothing more than a buzzword nowadays, a word used to exploit some sort of moral superiority from taking the opposing side.
#197
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Posté 26 avril 2011 - 07:48
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This too. It's interesting that there are quite a few opposed to Cerberus because of the "human dominance" line but don't seem to mind the racial dominance enforced by the Council.It's also a Salarian/Asari/Turian racial caste good ol' boys club that shuns other species that aren't part of the clique.
#198
Posté 26 avril 2011 - 07:48
didymos1120
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ExtremeOne wrote...
Last Vizard wrote...
Yes they are evil, the point is that they are the lesser of two evils... the other being Reaper/alien dominance over humans.
The reapers are worse than they are
That's exactly what Vizard just said.
#199
Posté 26 avril 2011 - 08:27
Last Vizard
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didymos1120 wrote...
ExtremeOne wrote...
Last Vizard wrote...
Yes they are evil, the point is that they are the lesser of two evils... the other being Reaper/alien dominance over humans.
The reapers are worse than they are
That's exactly what Vizard just said.
Thank you Crocaduck or Duckacroc.
#200
Posté 26 avril 2011 - 08:28
ExtremeOne
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If the reapers are more evil why turn Cerberus evil
