1342 réponses à ce sujet

[008Zulu]

Seboist wrote...

The Alliance spawned Cerberus, how about that?

How long did it take the Alliance to sever all ties once Cerberus made their true colours visible?

[008Zulu]

Arijharn wrote...

Forgive me for getting caught up in semantics here, but 'evil' is too strong a word imo. When I think of evil I think of harm purposely committed for no other reason than to just cause harm.

Personally, I think to label something as evil is nothing more than a buzzword nowadays, a word used to exploit some sort of moral superiority from taking the opposing side.

Evil does have rather broad connotations. How about....

Cerberus is: Morally Bankrupt. Devoid of basic humanity. Uncaring. An affront to all the good things in life. An insult to humanity. Sadistic.

Any or all of the above.

[Barquiel]

Seboist wrote...

The Alliance spawned Cerberus, how about that?

That makes the alliance evil. But it's no excuse for TIM's crimes.

[Admoniter]

wiggles89 wrote...

How long did it take the Alliance to sever all ties once Cerberus made their true colours visible?

Cerberus' worst experiments happened while they were a part of the Alliance. And keep it mind, there was a long period between Teltin and the Alliance severing their ties with Cerberus. Moreover, Cerberus' behaviour has been much more palatable since the two split.

I dunno as far as ****storms caused by Cerberus go Overlord and project Reperify Grayson take the easily take pot. The former basically being what would happen if every home appliance you owned wanted you dead and the latter being well... it was bad beyond basically being a walking example of Murphy's Law it also resulted in every student at the Ascension Project having a massive X placed on there head.

Props Cerberus when you **** up you do it classly like.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Admoniter wrote...
The latter being well... it was bad beyond basically being a walking example of Murphy's Law it also resulted in every student at the Ascension Project having a massive X placed on there head.

Props Cerberus when you **** up you do it classly like.

Shouldn't you thank Anderson for that?

[Admoniter]

Lizardviking wrote...

Admoniter wrote...
The latter being well... it was bad beyond basically being a walking example of Murphy's Law it also resulted in every student at the Ascension Project having a massive X placed on there head.

Props Cerberus when you **** up you do it classly like.

Shouldn't you thank Anderson for that?

To a degree yes, but letting an unrestrained avatar exist without proper contigency plans in place, way to drop the ball.

Seriously all Cerberus needs to do is slap on a couple of these... and they are in the shoe in for most incompetent orgainzation of the year.

Modifié par Admoniter, 26 avril 2011 - 09:37 .

[ExtremeOne]

Barquiel wrote...

Seboist wrote...

The Alliance spawned Cerberus, how about that?

That makes the alliance evil. But it's no excuse for TIM's crimes.

   




The alliance has blood on its hands so they are evil as well.  

[Arijharn]

Admoniter wrote...

To a degree yes, but letting an unrestrained avatar exist without proper contigency plans in place, way to drop the ball.

Be reasonable please, it's impossible to make contingency plans for everything under the sun. How could you possibly account for the possibility that a senior ranking Alliance official essentially commits Treason (against the Alliance in this case) by giving data about Cerberus activities/locations to another species who promptly send a mini-army to kick their front door down.

This involves a lot of factors that I doubt anyone could pre-plan for. Not even TIM.

[88mphSlayer]

ExtremeOne wrote...

Cerberus is not evil . Bioware is turning them evil for no reason at all

Cerberus started out as the cartoony villians of ME1 who - ironically - were doing experiments that aren't any more unethical than Exo Geni or what was going on at the Peak 15 facility on Noveria

then ME2 retconned them into this massive secret organization with billions of credits backing them up who would be willing to revive Shepard, take down the evil Shadow Broker, and stop the collectors

we get to see how they handle Cerberus for ME3, but it seems like they're back to being a cartoony villian again, i fully expect TIM to be twirling his mustache and being obsessed with sharks with lazor beams

[ExtremeOne]

88mphSlayer wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

Cerberus is not evil . Bioware is turning them evil for no reason at all

Cerberus started out as the cartoony villians of ME1 who - ironically - were doing experiments that aren't any more unethical than Exo Geni or what was going on at the Peak 15 facility on Noveria

then ME2 retconned them into this massive secret organization with billions of credits backing them up who would be willing to revive Shepard, take down the evil Shadow Broker, and stop the collectors

we get to see how they handle Cerberus for ME3, but it seems like they're back to being a cartoony villian again, i fully expect TIM to be twirling his mustache and being obsessed with sharks with lazor beams

   



If they turn them into a cartoon enemy in 3 . Mass Effect will be just some poor man's wanna be  version of Star Trek and Star Wars .   Bioware does not know how to do sci fi and the news of ME 3 proves it 

[Dean_the_Young]

008Zulu wrote...

Seboist wrote...

The Alliance spawned Cerberus, how about that?

How long did it take the Alliance to sever all ties once Cerberus made their true colours visible?

Two years and still counting.

If by 'true colors' you mean 'rogue.' The Alliance sponsored two of the nastiest pieces of Cerberus work, Akuze and Teltin, back when Cerberus was still in the Alliance pocket. So, if you didn't mean 'rogue'... decades and counting.

[Dean_the_Young]

008Zulu wrote...


Evil does have rather broad connotations. How about....

Cerberus is: Morally Bankrupt.

Hardly: they are utilitarian moralists. The many before the few, the ends justify the means, etc.

Cerberus is actually a very moral insitution... by another set of morality than yours.

Devoid of basic humanity.

Nope, and how anyone thinks that cruelty is inhumane in light of human history really has an idealism problem. It is human, and that's the problem.

Uncaring.

We've yet to meet an uncaring Cerberus person yet: even the ones who do human experiments do so out of caring for something else.

They might not care about the people they test on (or, on the other hand, they might: Dr. Archer.), but then no one blames Shepard for not weeping over the many hundreds/thousands of mercs, geth, krogan, and batarians.

An affront to all the good things in life.

Not unless you have a very selective definition of 'good'.

An insult to humanity.

Hardly. At worst, an uncomfortable reminder of the truth of humanity, both good and bad. That's not an insult by any means, except in so much as it disproves plesant lies.

Sadistic.

Not in particular.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 26 avril 2011 - 01:03 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Admoniter wrote...

wiggles89 wrote...

How long did it take the Alliance to sever all ties once Cerberus made their true colours visible?

Cerberus' worst experiments happened while they were a part of the Alliance. And keep it mind, there was a long period between Teltin and the Alliance severing their ties with Cerberus. Moreover, Cerberus' behaviour has been much more palatable since the two split.

I dunno as far as ****storms caused by Cerberus go Overlord and project Reperify Grayson take the easily take pot. The former basically being what would happen if every home appliance you owned wanted you dead

That's not really a sustainable comparison, since it was in reaction to a force of every home appliance that another group owned that did kill its owners, and then went out without provocation and tried to wipe out everyone else as well.

and the latter being well... it was bad beyond basically being a walking example of Murphy's Law it also resulted in every student at the Ascension Project having a massive X placed on there head.

Props Cerberus when you **** up you do it classly like.

Given how, ahem, public realm the Ascension Project already was, and how easy biotics are to detect anyway, the Ascension Project data breach was hardly a catastroph by any objective standard: pretty much everything the Reapers learned could also have been learned upon, you know, arriving. At which point EVERYONE has a mark over their head. The Ascension Project wasn't even a military project: the highest biotic technologies are elsewhere.

The Grayson project wasn't even a blink in the galactic news cycle. Anderson's actions caused acutal harm to galactic unity and preparation against the Reapers.

[hawat333]

They are a typical unofficial government agency. That's why it's working this good.
Their agenda, I'm still convinced, is not evil. Their methods, at least ninety five percent of them are ethically, morally questionable.
It is a science fiction setting however, there's no such thing as good and evil there.

[Zulu_DFA]

008Zulu wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

Forgive me for getting caught up in semantics here, but 'evil' is too strong a word imo. When I think of evil I think of harm purposely committed for no other reason than to just cause harm.

Personally, I think to label something as evil is nothing more than a buzzword nowadays, a word used to exploit some sort of moral superiority from taking the opposing side.

Evil does have rather broad connotations. How about....

Cerberus is: Morally Bankrupt. Devoid of basic humanity. Uncaring. An affront to all the good things in life. An insult to humanity. Sadistic.

Any or all of the above.

Actually Cerberus is the exact opposite of all the things you mentioned, except the last one.

[Herr Sovereign]

Arijharn wrote...

Sovereign is indoctrinating us all!!!

I resent such accusations! 

[Moiaussi]

Arijharn wrote...

Admoniter wrote...

To a degree yes, but letting an unrestrained avatar exist without proper contigency plans in place, way to drop the ball.

Be reasonable please, it's impossible to make contingency plans for everything under the sun. How could you possibly account for the possibility that a senior ranking Alliance official essentially commits Treason (against the Alliance in this case) by giving data about Cerberus activities/locations to another species who promptly send a mini-army to kick their front door down.

This involves a lot of factors that I doubt anyone could pre-plan for. Not even TIM.

It could have been anyone though. It isn't like Cerberus hasn't made any enemies. There are other Spectres working for the Council. It could have been one of them instead of Anderson. "But what if we are attacked" is not an unreasonable thing to have contingencies against, given the number of operations, Cerberus or Corporate or whoever that Shepard took down in ME1 alone.

It could even be a pirate band stumbling across the base somehow and looking for a quick profit.

[Someone With Mass]

ExtremeOne wrote...
If they turn them into a cartoon enemy in 3 . Mass Effect will be just some poor man's wanna be  version of Star Trek and Star Wars .   Bioware does not know how to do sci fi and the news of ME 3 proves it 

Please. You're just butthurt because they're taking their story in a direction you don't like.

I love it on the other hand.

I never even liked joining the Cerberus band of lobotomized circus freaks in the first place. 

[Moiaussi]

I don't like arbitrary plot twists. The fact I don't like Cerberus is independant of the fact that we were made to work with them in ME2 and that TIM really did seem to be taking the Reapers seriously.

The Council turning their backs was just as arbitrary.

There seems to be some sort of rule in writing these days that even fictional governments are completely incompetent. It is a cheap plot device to artificially isolate the main character so that the writers don't have to deal with the extra resources that would otherwise be available rather than have more rational reasons, such as letting Shepard be the recon/vangaurd, and the Council still having budget constraints while still supporting Shepard.

[ExtremeOne]

hawat333 wrote...

They are a typical unofficial government agency. That's why it's working this good.
Their agenda, I'm still convinced, is not evil. Their methods, at least ninety five percent of them are ethically, morally questionable.
It is a science fiction setting however, there's no such thing as good and evil there.

   



Of course sci fi has always had its good vs evil story plot.  Its not working good at all in the ME universe. Bioware wants me to buy into 3 different versions of Cerberus in 3 different games . That is a story issue and unless they can come up with a logical reason as to why . The Illusive Man and Cerberus is turning on Shepard .  Then I will understand their story for ME 3 better.  It makes me believe the reapers were never suppose to be the true enemy in the ME universe.  I am not buying the story of ME 3 right now when it comes to Cerberus .  yeah it makes for bad ass looking enemies in 3 . Just think those bad ass looking Cerberus shock troops would be of great help in the war with the reapers .   

[Dean_the_Young]

Someone With Mass wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...
If they turn them into a cartoon enemy in 3 . Mass Effect will be just some poor man's wanna be  version of Star Trek and Star Wars .   Bioware does not know how to do sci fi and the news of ME 3 proves it 

Please. You're just butthurt because they're taking their story in a direction you don't like.

I love it on the other hand.

I never even liked joining the Cerberus band of lobotomized circus freaks in the first place. 

Which is a rather strange position, given that the Cerberus folks are by far the most normal people in Mass Effect 2.

[Admoniter]

Arijharn wrote...

Be reasonable please, it's impossible to make contingency plans for everything
under the sun. How could you possibly account for the possibility that a
senior ranking Alliance official essentially commits Treason (against
the Alliance in this case) by giving data about Cerberus
activities/locations to another species who promptly send a mini-army to
kick their front door down.

This involves a lot of factors that I doubt anyone could pre-plan for. Not even TIM.

I'm being completely reasonable, I'm not asking that they have three hundred guards each with a Mako pointing their cannon at Grayson and ready to atomize him the second one of his tubes blinks out of sequence. All I'm saying is having an assassin who specializes in hand to hand against a Reaper avatar is just bad and wrong. If going to do a contigency plan the least you can do is do it proper. It wouldn't even be that hard just restrain him in a room with a purge system similar to what we see in Noveria. Or put him in a room that is jettisonable from the main station while giving it just enough fuel to hurtle itself into the nearest star. Or do something with mass effect fields, I'm sure there are tons of options on that front.

wiggles89 wrote...
How was Cerberus supposed to safeguard against Anderson giving the turians the information and, subsequently, the turians kicking in their door? Moreover, why should Cerberus safeguard against something so improbable? Until you can answer those questions then your criticism is unreasonable.

Simple have a utilitarian solution in place. And why should they make an effort to makes sure there freakshow
stays in his cage? Oh I don't know because having what is essentialy Saren 2.0 free to do whatever it likes
probably isn't the best policy. Even from a Cerberus perspective losing track of one of your experiments probably isn't a good thing, besides you no longer have a controlled setting to monitor the continued changes
that it goes through. I mean that alone should be motivation enough for Cerberus to keep Grayson in check. I'm not asking for Cerberus to walk on water here guys.

When things go wrong and they generally do, especially with something like Grayson I want to know you aren't just letting him waltz out the front door.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
That's not really a sustainable comparison, since it was in reaction to a force of every home appliance that another group owned that did kill its owners, and then went out without provocation and tried to wipe out everyone else as well.

Drove it owners away, the method that Geth went about this may be frowned upon because they are synthetic but their reaction is completely understandable. Beyond that the Geth that tried to wipe us all out are potentially a completely different faction from the others. Also the fact is Overlord while successful... I guess also became a massive cluster****. I'm not saying Cerberus isn't wrong to pursue the avenue they were pursuing (although I do disagree) what I'm saying is that as far as monumental screw ups by Cerberus go Overlord is definitely up there.

Given how, ahem, public realm the Ascension Project already was, and how easy biotics are to detect anyway, the Ascension Project data breach was hardly a catastroph by any objective standard: pretty much everything the Reapers learned could also have been learned upon, you know, arriving. At which point EVERYONE has a mark over their head. The Ascension Project wasn't even a military project: the highest biotic technologies are elsewhere.

The Grayson project wasn't even a blink in the galactic news cycle. Anderson's actions caused acutal harm to galactic unity and preparation against the Reapers.

Fair enough maybe that isn't nearly as much of an issue as I made it out to be.

Modifié par Admoniter, 26 avril 2011 - 08:07 .