164 réponses à ce sujet

[Rifneno]

Sons of Horus wrote...

Has anyone tried Rival Sebastian Relationship yet?

Bestiality is wrong.

[Kaiser Shepard]

My main problem with DA2's romances is that every single one of them involved damaged goods in one way or another; none of the romancables, sans Sebastian, could be classified as "normal". Merril is just bat**** insane until you rivalmance her the right way at the end, Isabela isn't trustworthy in the least, Anders is Anders and moody Fenris might actually be the most normal one of the lot.

[Addai]

Rifneno wrote...
Which is exactly what it is: rationalizing.  The crux of that argument is that the Circle isn't necessary, good training is necessary and the Circle keeps a monopoly on it by use of force.

Weren't you the one saying that this isn't argument # 687924 on mages vs. templars?  There is roleplay rationale for a lawful mage.  For one thing, mage Hawke probably never dreamt the **** that goes on with other apostates until Kirkwall.

After helping him with Hadriana and being nothing but good to him and anyone else that's not a criminal, he screams that may she rot and all the other mages.  Mage Hawke responds, "Don't forget who you're talking to" and he rages back "I haven't forgotten!"  Yes, I deem him a bigot.

Yes, and after he says that there is a long pause where Hawke looks surprised/ appalled and Fenris realizes what he's said and what it means to her.  In some cases, it's shortly after that they first consummate the relationship.  I see it as the first time he realizes that his anti-mage prejudice is clashing with his true feelings.  If it doesn't work for you, that's fine.  But it works beautifully for some of us.  Though it's not the puppies and flowers sort of romance (which is precisely its appeal as far as I'm concerned).

Modifié par Addai67, 25 avril 2011 - 09:14 .

[Rifneno]

Addai67 wrote...
Weren't you the one saying that this isn't argument # 687924 on mages vs. templars?  There is roleplay rationale for a lawful mage.  For one thing, mage Hawke probably never dreamt the **** that goes on with other apostates until Kirkwall.

And I'm not arguing about mages vs templars, I'm arguing that the Hawke that uses that rationale is a self-righteous hypocrite.

Yes, and after he says that there is a long pause where Hawke looks surprised/ appalled and Fenris realizes what he's said and what it means to her.  In some cases, it's shortly after that they first consummate the relationship.  I see it as the first time he realizes that his anti-mage prejudice is clashing with his true feelings.  If it doesn't work for you, that's fine.  But it works beautifully for some of us.  Though it's not the puppies and flowers sort of romance (which is precisely its appeal as far as I'm concerned).

It doesn't play out that way if you didn't let him sheath his sword with Hawke.  There's no realization, he just rages.

[AlexXIV]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

My main problem with DA2's romances is that every single one of them involved damaged goods in one way or another; none of the romancables, sans Sebastian, could be classified as "normal". Merril is just bat**** insane until you rivalmance her the right way at the end, Isabela isn't trustworthy in the least, Anders is Anders and moody Fenris might actually be the most normal one of the lot.

Maybe your standarts are too high. I didn't think there is anything wrong with Merrill. She isn't more crazy than any scientist who is doing dangerous researches. So at worst you can call her curious and maybe a bit obsessed. But she is doing better than her keeper who thinks the best idea of the day is to contain a dangerous demon with her.

For the other romances I'd have to agree. Isabella too selfish and stupid, Fenris too much laden with Tevinter trauma, Anders ... well not really himself anymore and Sebastian could as well pick up Meredith's sword and go on where she failed. Crazy zealot type.

[Addai]

Rifneno wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Weren't you the one saying that this isn't argument # 687924 on mages vs. templars?  There is roleplay rationale for a lawful mage.  For one thing, mage Hawke probably never dreamt the **** that goes on with other apostates until Kirkwall.

And I'm not arguing about mages vs templars, I'm arguing that the Hawke that uses that rationale is a self-righteous hypocrite.

Oh.  Right.  How big-minded of you. 

Yes, and after he says that there is a long pause where Hawke looks surprised/ appalled and Fenris realizes what he's said and what it means to her.  In some cases, it's shortly after that they first consummate the relationship.  I see it as the first time he realizes that his anti-mage prejudice is clashing with his true feelings.  If it doesn't work for you, that's fine.  But it works beautifully for some of us.  Though it's not the puppies and flowers sort of romance (which is precisely its appeal as far as I'm concerned).

It doesn't play out that way if you didn't let him sheath his sword with Hawke.  There's no realization, he just rages.

If you yell at him for not keeping his promise?  Yeah, he's not going to take that well.  But the other dialogue options show what is going on internally.  If it's not how it played in your game, that's your game.

[ejoslin]

Addai67 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Weren't you the one saying that this isn't argument # 687924 on mages vs. templars?  There is roleplay rationale for a lawful mage.  For one thing, mage Hawke probably never dreamt the **** that goes on with other apostates until Kirkwall.

And I'm not arguing about mages vs templars, I'm arguing that the Hawke that uses that rationale is a self-righteous hypocrite.

Oh.  Right.  How big-minded of you. 

Yes, and after he says that there is a long pause where Hawke looks surprised/ appalled and Fenris realizes what he's said and what it means to her.  In some cases, it's shortly after that they first consummate the relationship.  I see it as the first time he realizes that his anti-mage prejudice is clashing with his true feelings.  If it doesn't work for you, that's fine.  But it works beautifully for some of us.  Though it's not the puppies and flowers sort of romance (which is precisely its appeal as far as I'm concerned).

It doesn't play out that way if you didn't let him sheath his sword with Hawke.  There's no realization, he just rages.

If you yell at him for not keeping his promise?  Yeah, he's not going to take that well.  But the other dialogue options show what is going on internally.  If it's not how it played in your game, that's your game.

I'm going to point out something -- that conversation, at hadriana, happens before Hawke and Fenris have sex.  While you can pick flirt lines there and have him push Hawke away, the comment he makes is not romance related.  he's talking about his sister, and wondering what the magisters have done to her -- what has magic touched that it hasn't ruined.  Hawke's look stops him cold.  It's pretty obvious he was thinking about Tevinter given the context of the conversation and what came out of his mouth surprised even him.  And he apologizes afterwards, and that is definitely not romance related.

Whether the apology leads to wallsex, yeh, now THAT is romance related

Modifié par ejoslin, 25 avril 2011 - 09:49 .

[kyles3]

AlexXIV wrote...

Sebastian could as well pick up Meredith's sword and go on where she failed. Crazy zealot type.

So anyone who believes in something is a zealot? I guess Anders and Fenris are zealots, too, then. And Sebastian is never as cruel to anyone as those two are to Merrill.

Modifié par kyles3, 25 avril 2011 - 09:51 .

[Addai]

ejoslin wrote...
I'm going to point out something -- that conversation, at hadriana, happens before Hawke and Fenris have sex.  While you can pick flirt lines there and have him push Hawke away, the comment he makes is not romance related.  he's talking about his sister, and wondering what the magisters have done to her -- what has magic touched that it hasn't ruined.  Hawke's look stops him cold.  It's pretty obvious he was thinking about Tevinter given the context of the conversation and what came out of his mouth surprised even him.  And he apologizes afterwards, and that is definitely not romance related.

Whether the apology leads to wallsex, yeh, now THAT is romance related

Is this directed at me?  I didn't mean to say that only comes up if in a romance with him, but if you are in a romance with him- which I consider to be possible even if it's not sexual yet- you can easily interpret/ roleplay it as that he is reacting to realizing what he's said re Hawke (because she's a mage's sister even if not a mage).  In fact, since his memories haven't returned, it makes more sense to me that he double takes because of Hawke rather than Tevinter.

[ejoslin]

Addai67 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
I'm going to point out something -- that conversation, at hadriana, happens before Hawke and Fenris have sex.  While you can pick flirt lines there and have him push Hawke away, the comment he makes is not romance related.  he's talking about his sister, and wondering what the magisters have done to her -- what has magic touched that it hasn't ruined.  Hawke's look stops him cold.  It's pretty obvious he was thinking about Tevinter given the context of the conversation and what came out of his mouth surprised even him.  And he apologizes afterwards, and that is definitely not romance related.

Whether the apology leads to wallsex, yeh, now THAT is romance related

Is this directed at me?  I didn't mean to say that only comes up if in a romance with him, but if you are in a romance with him- which I consider to be possible even if it's not sexual yet- you can easily interpret/ roleplay it as that he is reacting to realizing what he's said re Hawke (because she's a mage's sister even if not a mage).  In fact, since his memories haven't returned, it makes more sense to me that he double takes because of Hawke rather than Tevinter.

I'm not disagreeing with you.  I was just pointing out that the particular conversation where he rages about "What has magic touched that it hasn't spoiled" happens before he has sex with Hawke and the comment and the look and the apology later are not romance related.

If anything, it was a response to the person you were debating with saying the conversation goes differently if you haven't had sex with him.  I was just pointing out that sex hasn't happened at that point, and the apology and the comment and Fenris' reaction there are certainly not romance related.

Then again, I think the term "bigot" is really misused, but when I tried to explain why, yeh.  Apparently that may start a debate @@

Modifié par ejoslin, 25 avril 2011 - 10:05 .

[Ollymandias]

ejoslin wrote...
 he's talking about his sister, and wondering what the magisters have done to her -- what has magic touched that it hasn't ruined.  Hawke's look stops him cold.  It's pretty obvious he was thinking about Tevinter given the context of the conversation and what came out of his mouth surprised even him.  And he apologizes afterwards, and that is definitely not romance related.

I thought the "What has magic touched that it hasn't ruined" thing as talking primarily about himself rather than his sister or Hawke or even Tevinter.  When he realises a moment later that it isn't the best thing to say to a mageHawke, or to any Hawke who has a mageBethany, he pulls himself up short.

Modifié par Ollymandias, 25 avril 2011 - 11:14 .

[ejoslin]

Ollymandias wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
 he's talking about his sister, and wondering what the magisters have done to her -- what has magic touched that it hasn't ruined.  Hawke's look stops him cold.  It's pretty obvious he was thinking about Tevinter given the context of the conversation and what came out of his mouth surprised even him.  And he apologizes afterwards, and that is definitely not romance related.

I thought the "What has magic touched that it hasn't ruined" thing as talking primarily about himself rather than his sister or Hawke or even Tevinter.  When he realises a moment later that it isn't the best thing to say to a mageHawke, or to any Hawke who has a mageBethany, he pulls himself up short.

Here's the full line:

Fenris: Even if I found my sister, who knows what the magisters have done to her. What has magic touched that it doesn't spoil?

It's definitely a loaded statement.  And the look on both Hawke's face and his reaction to it are great. I do like that he comes back to apologize.

The really sad thing, he even ended up being right about that though in a completely unexpected way.

Modifié par ejoslin, 25 avril 2011 - 11:29 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

ejoslin wrote...
The really sad thing, he even ended up being right about that though in a completely unexpected way.

The sad thing is that he was completely right, because the game doesn't understand the concept of nuance.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 25 avril 2011 - 11:31 .

[ejoslin]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
The really sad thing, he even ended up being right about that though in a completely unexpected way.

The sad thing is that he was completely right, because the game doesn't understand the concept of nuance.

That's true.  

There are quite a few more lines in the scene that I am leaving out -- they're all pretty bad.  Of course, you also just heard about how Hadriana just murdered a bunch of slaves to strengthen herself for when he arrives and you even see one of the bodies.  This is what he was taught about mages -- his beliefs have a strong basis as that is what he saw happening for the entirety of his memories.  

That he comes back and apologizes, it says a lot.  He realized he was out of line.  He said awful things, and he knew Hawke wasn't the one who did this.  He took out his anger at the whole thing on Hawke, and realized it.  I think that shows quite a bit of awareness actually.

[Woodstock-TC]

@ejoslin : thats all true and nice. However even if you did all this, and reached all this consent with him, help him, keep him from murdering his sister.. and so on and so forth.. he may at the end still fight you. he doesnt walk away to not confront the only ppl which helped him get rid of his past and get his mind at ease. he doesnt even chose to NOT fight hawke directly unless attacked (if he really thought THIS would be his mission during endgame he could just have avoided hawke).

I mean lets get it straight about how it all starts from beginning:
- he tricks you through a dwarf to play a distraction
- he cant really pay you but promises loot at denerius house in hightown
- if you help him he will complain being yet again in company of 'another mage'
- he still cant pays you but offers you to loot the house (which brings up like what 14 silver.. ?)
- every time you talk to him that mad romance music starts which drives one crazy if you are his rival. ^^
if i wouldnt want the story parts (let alone for the game length, xp, items and such) i would kill him right there on the spot, or chose the "i dont need you" line and have him bugger off with 25 rival points as last action ^^

=>so yes he is quite straight, and yes, i as mage i see so little reason to not dump him asap. he is a lose cannon (as he proves at the end) and as apostate mage, such anti-mage zealot is the last thing you want around. i mean he even tells you how he betrayed other helpers before getting a push on some trigger. (these forrestwarriors or whatever they were called).. as mage you are basically slave of his mood. he could try turning you in at any moment or attack you at any other if you dont comply with his "ideas". unfortunately he doesnt do it (unlike Sten in DA:O). i would have so much enjoyed such confrontation.

Besides that i actually strongly doubt his whining about having fled Tevinter.. looks more like he did fled Final Fantasy .. yes indeed, but thats another topic.

Modifié par Woodstock-TC, 26 avril 2011 - 12:04 .

[ejoslin]

Woodstock-TC wrote...

@ejoslin : thats all true and nice. However even if you did all this, and reached all this consens with him, help him, keep him from murdering his sister.. he may at the end still fight you. he doesnt walk away to not confront the only ppl which helped him get rid of his past and get his mind at ease. he doesnt even chose to NOT fight hawke directly unless attacked (if he really thought THIS would be his mission during endgame he could just have avoided hawke).

I mean lets get it straight about how it all starts from beginning:
- he tricks you through a dwarf to play a distraction
- he cant really pay you but promises loot at denerius house in hightown
- if you help him he will complain being yet again in company of 'another mage'
- he still cant pays you but offers you to loot the house (which brings up like what 14 silver.. ?)
if i wouldnt want the story parts (let alone for the game length, xp, items and such) i would kill him right there on the spot, or chose the "i dont need you" line and have him bugger off with 25 rival points as last action ^^

Besides that i actually strongly doubt his whining about having fled Tevinter.. looks more like he did fled Final Fantasy .. yes indeed, but thats another topic.

He may betray you if your approval is not maxed, yes.  But if it is, he does not.  So may Avaline, Isabela, Merrill, Sebastian, Anders -- he's hardly alone with this.

I'm not talking about if Fenris should be liked or hated -- some people will like him, some people will hate him.  And that is a mark of a well written character -- that people both love and hate him for various reasons.  And what you think of his appearance really has not much to do with whether he fled Tevinter or not -- he DID flee from his master.  he does have reason to hate and fear mages -- this is not an unfounded stance.  he's used to seeing mages murder and torture people for power and for fun.  It was all he remembered.  And then it's reinforced repeatedly (and I"m not discussing the justification of the mages, just saying it happens every time you want to help a mage -- you're dealing with an abomination or someone who's raising the dead or someone who's sacrificing people for their magic).

He does show a lot of growth, I think.  But he doesn't change his world view on mages.  He doesn't think all are evil, just that the weak ones are so dangerous that they cannot be allowed freedom.  I'm not debating whether he's right or wrong, I'm just saying I get his point of view.

[Rifneno]

Okay before we hit the engines full blast en route to this iceburg, I think it's safe to say that a mage who goes after Fenris has some issues of their own.  Most likely the old "Awww, he's broken but I can fix him!" mentality.  Neeever works. 

[ejoslin]

Rifneno wrote...

Okay before we hit the engines full blast en route to this iceburg, I think it's safe to say that a mage who goes after Fenris has some issues of their own.  Most likely the old "Awww, he's broken but I can fix him!" mentality.  Neeever works. 

It works in DA2...  And that's all that matters.  Fantasy relationships are not real world ones.

[Addai]

Rifneno wrote...

Okay before we hit the engines full blast en route to this iceburg, I think it's safe to say that a mage who goes after Fenris has some issues of their own.  Most likely the old "Awww, he's broken but I can fix him!" mentality.  Neeever works. 

You forgot the ripe old "IMO."

Besides the fact that you can say the same for any Hawke plus any of the LIs.

[Xilizhra]

Not if Hawke doesn't try to fix them. Mine certainly doesn't try to fix Merrill.

[kyles3]

Rifneno wrote...

Most likely the old "Awww, he's broken but I can fix him!" mentality.  Neeever works. 

Or in some cases (many cases? ) the "Oh, yes, hurt me more!" mentality. 

[Addai]

Xilizhra wrote...

Not if Hawke doesn't try to fix them. Mine certainly doesn't try to fix Merrill.

And you don't have to try to fix Fenris, either.  Rifeneno is making **** up.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The one who is in dire need of fixing is Hawke.

[Woodstock-TC]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The one who is in dire need of fixing is Hawke.

"Hawke this, Hawke that. Why does everything fall to me?"

[Rifneno]

ejoslin wrote...

It works in DA2...  And that's all that matters.  Fantasy relationships are not real world ones.

The people in the Chantry disagree.  Or they would, if Anders didn't go jihad on them despite a loving and supporting Hawke.

Xilizhra wrote...

Not if Hawke doesn't try to fix them. Mine certainly doesn't try to fix Merrill.

I'm referring specifically to mage Hawke & Fenris though.  Merrill I can see not necessarily needing "fixing."  But someone getting involved with a former slave who bitterly hates the minority you belong to is either trying to fix them or has some incredible self-esteem issues themselves.

Addai67 wrote...
And you don't have to try to fix Fenris, either.  Rifeneno is making **** up.

I don't know why they call it "common sense."  It clearly isn't that common.