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FemHawke: Champion of Kirkwall and Complete Failure at Relationships?


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#126
Shadow of Light Dragon

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lastpatriot wrote...

What, you don't think getting married to Sebastian and becoming a nun isn't a good option?


People seem to get confused with the term 'chaste marriage'. Chaste does not mean celibate (which is what nuns are supposed to be). What's the point of being married if you're not going to have sex? o_O

A chaste marriage means a decent marriage, as in you're not off having relationships with other people or organising orgies. Sebastian wants a that, where the two of you are true to each other.

(Yes, he also wants you to become a sister (a member of the Chantry) but that doesn't mean 'no sex' :P Granted it's not the life for your Hawke if you don't believe in the Maker or Andraste. Or you like orgies.)

#127
Ollymandias

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I'm referring specifically to mage Hawke & Fenris though. Merrill I can see not necessarily needing "fixing." But someone getting involved with a former slave who bitterly hates the minority you belong to is either trying to fix them or has some incredible self-esteem issues themselves.


A former slave getting involved with a member of the minority who oppressed, tortured and abused you on the grounds that it's different this time... well, stick to what you know, eh.

Fenris escapes a mage master in the Tevinter Imperium, who used him as a bodyguard and living weapon, and made him kill people against his principles.

He runs to Kirkwall where he meets this other mage, who uses him as a bodyguard and living weapon, and (if Hawke is pro-mage) makes him kill, or save, people against his principles.

And then the Chantry blows up and Hawke sides with the mages, who turn out to be blood magic enthusiasts and corpse golems waiting to happen, and Fenris must be so annoyed at his unreasonable boyfriend, but really, all he knows is being ordered around by unreasonable mages and Hawke is probably by far the best and nicest of the lot.

#128
Woodstock-TC

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Ollymandias wrote...


He runs to Kirkwall where he meets this other mage, who uses him as a bodyguard and living weapon, and (if Hawke is pro-mage) makes him kill, or save, people against his principles.


mind to quote your source ? actually its the other way around.
Fenris  requires Hawkes help from start on. Additionally with his personal quests. Fenris is being asked nicely if he would like to take part of an expedition where Hawke would need some help. This is after Fenris already knows that FemHawke is  a mage. Its his own decision. No one forces him to do anything.

Yet he keeps b^tchng about and backstabs at the end. I can understand and respect all the reasons why others may decide differently or feel attracted, but for me his air of rightous superiority and know-it-all (as ex slave which was what ? a bodyguard with expensive lyrium markings.. who knows exactly what about the world? mages evil, slaves bad and what else? nothing? thanks. than sit down and listen.)

Sarcastic FemHawke brings it to a point when she asks him in one of the first conversations if he can talk or think about anything not negative.. ..he stops.. thinks and comes up (not very pesuaded himself) with a compliment about the wine. I mean its a well written character, and this reaction brings it exactly to the point. He is a totally empty guy which doesnt want to contribute anything (because he cant). This is understandable, but trying a relation with him (beside the pure sexual part if you want) will be complicated. mage or not.

as for a femhawke mage, well as i wrote already my vp.

#129
Ollymandias

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He runs to Kirkwall where he meets this other mage, who uses him as a bodyguard and living weapon, and (if Hawke is pro-mage) makes him kill, or save, people against his principles.

mind to quote your source ? actually its the other way around.
Fenris  requires Hawkes help from start on. Additionally with his personal quests. Fenris is being asked nicely if he would like to take part of an expedition where Hawke would need some help. This is after Fenris already knows that FemHawke is  a mage. Its his own decision. No one forces him to do anything.

Yet he keeps b^tchng about and backstabs at the end. <...snip>


You mean it can be read the other way around.

If you have Fenris in your party, he does fulfil the role of a bodyguard and living weapon admirably.
In a party led by a pro-mage Hawke, there will be quests where he goes along with pro-mage Hawke in spite of his own convictions and principles.

In your playthrough he turned on your Hawke at the end, but in mine he appeased his "let's save the mages!" boyfriend and stood by Hawke, even though he did his share of cross muttering and I-can't-believe-I'm-doing-this-ing. If you tend your Fenris well, and get his Stockholm Rivalry up to 100% he doesn't switch sides.

And a Hawke who is pro-mage and brings Fenris along to the mage-related missions does make him help save people against his will. He complains about letting apostates go, he says that it's unwise and dangerous, he says and says and says, but remains on the whole, obedient, even if he does complain his head off. He will fight Templars to set free Starkhaven mages if Hawke tells him to, even though he clearly does not agree with setting mages free.

The thing is that he allows this. As you say, Hawke is not in any way shown to twist Fenris' arm about it. Fenris, however, (due to game party mechanics or whatever) does keep following Hawke's commands when he says stuff along the lines of  "Yep, we are letting these Starkhaven mages go." or "Haha, go to Tevinter and study hard, superpowered half-elf kid!" or "Anders, you will suffer no repercussions for what you did, stay in the party, man!" He might disagree bitterly- he does disagree vocally often- but even if he is scowling most of the time he still does as he is told, though he does not have to.

Edit for:

Yeah, it’s the same with the other companions if you Rival them.  Merrill will keep dating Hawke even if Hawke keeps the arulindindinholm from her and takes every possible opportunity to scold her about naughty blood magic, maybe because she is incredibly isolated and has two other friends in the whole world.  Isabela will keep dating Hawke when Hawke nags her to change her ways and do some personal responsibility etc.  Anders will date a pro-Circle Hawke, even if he does put his foot down hard about Hawkes who bargain with demons.  Due to gameplay reasons, party members will go against what they believe in and Hawke calls the shots.

Still, none of these seem as... Stockholm syndrome messed-up as the potential Fenris example, probably because of Fenris' history.

Modifié par Ollymandias, 26 avril 2011 - 03:25 .


#130
Addai

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Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

lastpatriot wrote...

What, you don't think getting married to Sebastian and becoming a nun isn't a good option?


People seem to get confused with the term 'chaste marriage'. Chaste does not mean celibate (which is what nuns are supposed to be). What's the point of being married if you're not going to have sex? o_O

A chaste marriage means a decent marriage, as in you're not off having relationships with other people or organising orgies. Sebastian wants a that, where the two of you are true to each other.

(Yes, he also wants you to become a sister (a member of the Chantry) but that doesn't mean 'no sex' :P Granted it's not the life for your Hawke if you don't believe in the Maker or Andraste. Or you like orgies.)

This has been debated elsewhere, but there is actual precedent for celibate marriage in Christian (and probably other religions') history.  I take it to mean celibate marriage.

#131
Addai

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Rifneno wrote...

I don't know why they call it "common sense."  It clearly isn't that common.

This usually happens when you mistake your opinion for it.

#132
Shadow of Light Dragon

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Addai67 wrote...

This has been debated elsewhere, but there is actual precedent for celibate marriage in Christian (and probably other religions') history.  I take it to mean celibate marriage.


Urgh.

You are correct, there's precedent for sexless marriages, but chaste and celibate ARE two different words (and it amuses me that dictionary.com shows 'Celibate' as one of the definitions for 'Chaste', but a little lower it also says that the two words are often confused as meaning the same thing XD).

Has anyone thought to look at how Sebastian's statement is phrased in other language versions of the game?

#133
ejoslin

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Merriam Webster also has the first two definitions of "chaste" as "celibate." But keep in mind that Sebastion has taken a vow of celibacy and he does sound like he wants to keep it.

Edit: I can't do Seb's romance.  But my Hawke does flirt with him and gets the ending that where he starts to talk about what could have been.  Then she makes out with Fenris.  So all is happy I guess.

Second edit:  Just for SoLD, I went to the OED.  

Concise Oxford English Dictionary © 2008 Oxford University Press:
chaste/tʃeɪst/ 
▶adjective
  • 1 abstaining from extramarital, or from all, sexual intercourse.
  • 2 without unnecessary ornamentation.
– derivatives 
chastely adverb, 
chasteness noun.– origin ME: from OFr., from L. castus.

So Sebby could be suggesting either. 

Modifié par ejoslin, 26 avril 2011 - 04:26 .


#134
Esbatty

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I had always thought of a chaste marriage as to where the marriage bed is sacred. Basically, "alone time" was special time with your partner. No thoughts of the troubles of the day or bothering with the kids, or thinking of other people when you're with your spouse. You focus on each other. You don't fantasize about being with someone else or be selfish and only try to satisfy your own desires. You're there for your partner and partner is there for you. so its not celibacy but fidelity in mind and body.

#135
Shadow of Light Dragon

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Actually, to be honest I had completely forgotten that Sebastian had taken a vow of celibacy.

In that case, I guess a sexless marriage is what he means. o_O

(Though I now want to burn dictionaries XD The extramarital definition was the one I was going on, of course.)

#136
Esbatty

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Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Actually, to be honest I had completely forgotten that Sebastian had taken a vow of celibacy.

In that case, I guess a sexless marriage is what he means. o_O

(Though I now want to burn dictionaries XD The extramarital definition was the one I was going on, of course.)

Hawke being, well, Hawke... she could totally force herself on him. And since its all medievally times that means not only is spouse rape legal but from the same timeframe of thinking men cannot be raped by women, since its just "sex a Man did not plan on having at that time".Image IPB

#137
Rifneno

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Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

People seem to get confused with the term 'chaste marriage'. Chaste does not mean celibate (which is what nuns are supposed to be). What's the point of being married if you're not going to have sex? o_O


A green card?  ...  Honestly it's pretty stupid.  All it takes is one mutual moment of weakness for that oh-so-important vow to be broken by hormones and human nature.  It's like locking yourself in with a desire demon for the rest of your life.  Not going to end well.

But since in the end his vow of celibacy is brought up, this leaves us with another question.  What was that for?  The reason nuns take that vow is because they're essentially "married to Christ."  So marrying someone else is also on the no-no list.  Since it isn't for Sebastian, it seems that's not how it works with the Chantry.  So why a vow of celibacy?  If the Chantry thinks sex is just plain bad, someone better tell Leliana.  She must've missed that memo.  It seems like it's just a ridiculous vow for the sake of having a ridiculous vow.  Even more ridiculous when you consider he's royal blood and royal bloodlines are usually something they try to preserve.

....  Hmm.  I wonder if the whole sexless marriage thing is what screwed up Petrice and Varnell's minds.

Ollymandias wrote...
If you tend your Fenris well, and get his Stockholm Rivalry up to 100% he doesn't switch sides.


God I love the crossout font.  :)

The thing is that he allows this. As you say, Hawke is not in any way shown to twist Fenris' arm about it. Fenris, however, (due to game party mechanics or whatever) does keep following Hawke's commands when he says stuff along the lines of  "Yep, we are letting these Starkhaven mages go." or "Haha, go to Tevinter and study hard, superpowered half-elf kid!" or "Anders, you will suffer no repercussions for what you did, stay in the party, man!" He might disagree bitterly- he does disagree vocally often- but even if he is scowling most of the time he still does as he is told, though he does not have to.


I'm not sure Fenris gives a damn about what Anders did, actually.  He's no friend of the Chantry.  When Sebastian was trying to convert him, Fenris tells him something along the lines of "your 'Maker' sure wasn't any help when I was enslaved and tormented for decades."  I'm fairly sure he only supports the templars in that he feels the mages have to be imprisoned, not that their "holy duty" garbage is rooted in any truth.

Merrill will keep dating Hawke even if Hawke keeps the arulindindinholm from her and takes every possible opportunity to scold her about naughty blood magic, maybe because she is incredibly isolated and has two other friends in the whole world.


That's just unfair anyway.  Merrill can at least use blood magic once a month without wrongdoing.

....  What?

Esbatty wrote...

Hawke being, well, Hawke... she could totally force herself on him. And since its all medievally times that means not only is spouse rape legal but from the same timeframe of thinking men cannot be raped by women, since its just "sex a Man did not plan on having at that time".Image IPB


Since it's medieval times?  A lot of idiots still think that way.  Sad but true.

Modifié par Rifneno, 26 avril 2011 - 05:11 .


#138
Maria Caliban

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Addai67 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

1. It's Lady Hawke, not FemHawke. This isn't ME. That said, at least you didn't use Fem!Hawke.

Is this some sort of law?  People can call her what they want.

Yes, it's some sort of law. Sadly, because this is the internet, I am unable to inform the police in her area.


2. Lady Hawke has four romance choices. Dude Hawke has four romance choices. It's fine if you swing that way, but stop talking about Fenris and Anders as though they were the only options Lady Hawke has or as though Fenris and Anders romance problems were exclusive to Lady Hawke. A queer Guy Hawke can have the exact same thing happen.

If you're not into roleplaying a bi romance, there are only two options.  The OP is talking about her game.

It's fine for the OP to talk about her game. However, she talks as though the events in her game are related to her playing a female Hawke. They aren't.

#139
Deztyn

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Rifneno wrote...

I'm not sure Fenris gives a damn about what Anders did, actually.  He's no friend of the Chantry.  When Sebastian was trying to convert him, Fenris tells him something along the lines of "your 'Maker' sure wasn't any help when I was enslaved and tormented for decades."  I'm fairly sure he only supports the templars in that he feels the mages have to be imprisoned, not that their "holy duty" garbage is rooted in any truth.


Fenris is Andrastian. In Act II, he tells Anders he wouldn't kill himself when he was a slave because it is a sin in the eyes of the Maker. And in Act III Sebastian mentions catching him praying in the chantry.

Modifié par Deztyn, 26 avril 2011 - 05:57 .


#140
KnightofPhoenix

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I wonder what kind of Andrastrian. Does he believe Andraste to be a mortal prophetess or the bride of the Maker?

I'd think that, as a show of rebellion against Tevinter, that he'd embrace the Orlesian version of the Chantry. But I am not sure.

#141
Iosev

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If I recall correctly, Fenris isn't very religious intially, but starts warming up to the Chantry as the story progresses.

I mean, it makes sense, considering that Andraste herself was an escaped slave from Tevinter (i.e., according to legend). I wonder what Fenris would think if he stumbled upon The Search for the True Prophet (I'm guessing he'd probably put a fist through it).

Modifié par arcelonious, 26 avril 2011 - 06:21 .


#142
Deztyn

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Knight,

I hadn't given it much thought.

Fenris isn't devout in the early game. His banter with Anders indicates he believes, or wants to, but most of his conversations with Sebastian are questioning the role of the Maker in their lives. Sebastian is definitely the biggest influence on Fenris finding his faith. So, while I'm not comfortable calling it a rebellion against Tevinter, I think he'd follow the Orlesian version of the Chantry just because he's most familiar with it.

Arcelonious,

One of his plot gifts was The Book of Shartan. I'd say there's a definite connection. :)

#143
Woodstock-TC

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Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
(Yes, he also wants you to become a sister (a member of the Chantry) but that doesn't mean 'no sex' :P Granted it's not the life for your Hawke if you don't believe in the Maker or Andraste. Or you like orgies.)


thats funny ^^
its up to you of course, how to play your FemHawke, but i can hear already sarcastic FemHawkes reply on such 'offer'

sebastian: "....if you are a bit interested i could use your help to remedy a chaste marriage and getting you to become a sister."
Femhawke: *dripping sarcasm* "remedy that  -  sister job -  you my good man are priceless !"

/lent from the epic quest-start dialogue with Solivitus (Herbal Reagents). :))

greets,
wood

Modifié par Woodstock-TC, 26 avril 2011 - 12:02 .


#144
lastpatriot

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[quote]Maria Caliban wrote...

If you're not into roleplaying a bi romance, there are only two options.  The OP is talking about her game.[/quote]
It's fine for the OP to talk about her game. However, she talks as though the events in her game are related to her playing a female Hawke. They aren't.
[/quote]

The events I mentioned in the OP were from the RP perspective of my character and not really ment to describe all the options available to any Hawke that played through the game.  This character was specifically interested in Fenris for reasons of his strength and because she had hoped to change his heart towards mages.  While trying to follow the design of this character, I figured she would take particular in some of his qualities though his voice didn't hurt his chances either.

As for Anders, he was just there at the right time to pick her up from what she considered, was a terrible if not manipulative relationship.  She never really felt for Anders the same way she did for Fenris but at least he was kind to her (at first).

There was no real effort made to seek out any other relationships as her RP concept did not consider them an option.

#145
Beerfish

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Sandal - Man of mystery, probably a rocket in bed.
Bodahn - Older man but hey he is polite and will probably cook and clean for you.
Gamlen - Well, he may be your uncle but you can't be too picky after the Anders, Fenris situation
Varric - Prime grade A dwarf that you are just missing all the signs that he loves you.
Talking Man - You know he will always be there for you and he's a good conversationalist.

See, there are plenty of alternatives for you.

#146
lastpatriot

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Don't forget Dog - always dependable and short on words.

#147
Annarl

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The Angry One wrote...

I think the major problem with Fenris is the arbitrary passage of time feature, which makes it so that it takes him 3 years to tell Hawke that was the best night of his entire life but it brought up things he couldn't handle at that moment.


Really, when you stop to think about the whole timeline thing doesn't make sense.  Three years! to talk to the woman or man you love about your relationship.  The time skips weren't well done at all.  We're either going to get DLC material of fill in or they needed the ten years for the next story which is what I would guess.

#148
Addai

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Rifneno wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

People seem to get confused with the term 'chaste marriage'. Chaste does not mean celibate (which is what nuns are supposed to be). What's the point of being married if you're not going to have sex? o_O


A green card?  ...  Honestly it's pretty stupid.  All it takes is one mutual moment of weakness for that oh-so-important vow to be broken by hormones and human nature.  It's like locking yourself in with a desire demon for the rest of your life.  Not going to end well.

But since in the end his vow of celibacy is brought up, this leaves us with another question.  What was that for?  The reason nuns take that vow is because they're essentially "married to Christ."  So marrying someone else is also on the no-no list.  Since it isn't for Sebastian, it seems that's not how it works with the Chantry.  So why a vow of celibacy?  If the Chantry thinks sex is just plain bad, someone better tell Leliana.  She must've missed that memo.  It seems like it's just a ridiculous vow for the sake of having a ridiculous vow.  Even more ridiculous when you consider he's royal blood and royal bloodlines are usually something they try to preserve.

See the whole history of asceticism, for various religions.  Some people believe that there is spiritual value in disciplining/ training the body.  It doesn't necessarily equate to hatred of whatever it is you're abstaining from.  The fact that he's last of his line is part of his character arc, I take it.

#149
Wulfram

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When Sebastian took his vows there was an a heir and a spare, and even now there's at least one idiot cousin available.

#150
Annarl

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Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Actually, to be honest I had completely forgotten that Sebastian had taken a vow of celibacy.

In that case, I guess a sexless marriage is what he means. o_O

(Though I now want to burn dictionaries XD The extramarital definition was the one I was going on, of course.)


I thought the codex said Sebastion had not renewed his vows. Not sure:?.