407 réponses à ce sujet

[loranna238]

At first, I was thinking more along the lines of evil/crazy, but at the close of this I figured she was just Narcassistic.

I am not disputing she is cute, or charming, or funny.

I'm not trying to crush anyone's absolute love for her. You can still love her, that's your choice.  But - in real life, that probably wouldn't work out, I mean, it didn't work out for the Keeper. The reason I ask the question is because of the following.

1) First, and foremost, Merrill is a blood mage. She chose this path, despite the discouragement of others. She may have chosen it out of love of her clan to start with, but to me the blood magic perverts you and if you look at it closely enough, and do whatever she wants even while she is weeping about the effects of it, people just...die. Which is of course what a blood mage would want.

2.) Any attempt to be an actual friend to Merrill in the game, and not simply tell her that it's ok, you didn't do anything wrong, meets with a rivalry increase. The first meeting I had with her in the alienage had me bewildered - my character told her what I would have told her, in a loving way, and then came away with a huge rivalry boost. When I chose the path that just screamed wrong, it had the opposite. I didn't actually play the romance, but this to me even seemed wrong if you were human, and leading her astray, the wrong way.

3.) Repeated examples of where what she has done is actually hurting her clan do not dissuade her from continuing with her plans, even though for instance when Pol runs from her she weeps about how he thought she was a monster and they all must do so. Instead, she decides to go see the demon, again.

4.) While her mother/keeper's body is not yet cold, if instead of telling her, "girl, you knew the risks!" you say that the mother was stupid...(for sacrificing herself to save Merrill, which, when I 'm starting to think it probably was rather stupid, but also probably was necessary for the tribe as well - even though that's not why she did it) instead of reacting that she made a mistake and that this was all her fault and she would make amends, she instead states that she should have believed in her (Merrill), which..is just wrong.

5.) Yes, you could argue that she was willing to accept the danger in herself, however, it just seems to me that actions speak louder than words, and this was never put to the test. During what happened later, everything she is saying is designed to keep her involved with the clan, rather than actually taking responsibility. If you, instead take responsibility Merrill does say she is sorry still does not say she was wrong. She instead still beats the dead horse of "I would have had it be me!"

Looking at this however, if the demon had taken possession of her she could have possibly killed Hawke and the others, and then rampaged through her tribe like a teenager at an all you can eat pizzaria. Not everyone has Hawke's skills, and from what Anders said before an abomination is a scarey thing, and by this time you've built Merrill into some kind of super mage. This is not good. At the very least it's irresponsible and foolhardy.

6.) If you keep going along Merrill's merry path, you end up killing the very tribe she was trying to save. As Merrill is a blood mage, this seems a bit suspicious to me.

7.) If you destroy evil texts in her presence, it meets with a rivalry increase.  However, this could be that she just wanted to be the savior of her tribe.

The whole thing withe Merril just seemed to be...wrong, from the very start. The only other character besides you, if you happen to choose to encourage pure rivalry with her, that seems to see this is Fenris. She just...felt wrong to me. I wanted to believe that she was good, her weeping was really effective, but really but to me if you pay attention to what she is actually doing it seems a lot like subterfuge or maybe she's narcissistic with an inferiority complex, which really...doesn't make any sense.

So is she crazy? Is she manipulative and just trying to get more bodies to pile up because she's a blood mage? Is she just insecure? If she's so insecure why does she keep rejecting how the other elves respond to what she is doing, and continuing on her path? Why does she, in mourning her keeper, say really that it was her fault because she didn't believe in Merrill? It makes no sense...none of it does. I wanted to from the moment I saw her, leave her be and not have her in my party or anything but continued with it because of the plotline, and the off chance she might be some kind of crazed genious. But the more things went on, the more evident that this was bad and wrong, the more she did not turn back from what she was doing, and the more the choices I made seemed to be wrong.

When I did a first playthrough, after one half-hearted attempt to kill the elves, the wrongness of this just got to me. I went back and had to choose the option where I'd keep her from using her blood magic to harm anyone, which is exactly what she said she had wanted when you entered the cave...but this resulted in a huge rivalry increase, even though the elves survived, which is what *I* wanted, and did not sacrifice them to Merrill the way the Keeper sacrificed herself for her with nothing in return, not even Merrill learning her lesson.

To me, if you chose this path and encouraged her this was very very wrong. How much of a sacrifice is too much? Would the player's character be asked to kill themselves for her if possible to protect her pride and ego? Interesting also how it was a pride demon that confronted her, and not a desire demon or any other kind.

I am now approaching the thought that she is crazy at this point. Since I couldn't go down the path where I massacred the elves she was swearing to protect, I actually watched an online video of someone that did. It was so hard to watch as Merrill is facing - of all things a clouded mirror which has no reflection so she cannot see herself (the mirror btw is the universal symbol of narcissm, as Narcissus in Greek mythology fell in love with his reflection in some kind of pool and drowned) - and instead of destroying the damned thing is convinced again how she was right and everyone else was wrong and that they all killed themselves rather than believe in her help; she turns to the player as he tells her again, that they were wrong, she was right, and says she loves him, when what to me is that she loves the fact that he is endulging her and providing her a supply.  If you had discouraged her, as a true friend would, then she would not be so warm and fuzzy.

So at this point I am going towards Narcissistic, and with the mirror it seems rather obvious..

In addition, she always wanted to be the one to "save" her clan, the hero, although they would have just welcomed her if she just was one of them and she decided instead to stand apart, to be their savior, and did horrible things to do so, and in the end when they were all dead, she was like it was their fault, and not her own.

Yes, definitely narcissitic, with people sacrificing for her and supplying her confidence and justification, her proof that she is right and never wrong.

I realize this is a game, but also I have to pause here for a moment and say that Bioware is genious.  This made me really think and care. I was appalled by Merrill. I know many people out there will hate me for that, but really - I was appalled. When I do my next play-through I will reject her completely, as I thought my character should have done in the first place, from the moment when she sat down and told Merrill what seemed like the wisest thing to tell her. Rejecting her of course will have its consequences, like everything in the game, but at least I would feel less dirty playing it if I do so.  I also realize that my character is not myself, but really this drew me in.  I applaud this, I truly do.

[hoorayforicecream]

Before the storm starts, I just wanted to interject this:


Merrill could have been totally right, wrong, or something in between, but we're never given sufficient information to make that call. In doing so, she puts herself in a very bad position for a gamble - if everything goes according to plan, she's gambling her life against possibly finding out why the eluvian isn't working. If everything goes wrong, everyone dies and a powerful abomination runs around Kirkwall. This is why I went rivalry with her after the first playthrough (first playthrough = friendship)... too much I didn't know, and the impression I got from Merrill was that, while SHE might not care what happened to herself, Hawke, Varric, Isabela, etc. were all very concerned for her well-being and didn't want her to do it because it was simply too risky.

Is Merrill crazy or stupid? I don't think she is either. I think she is simply extremely focused on restoring the eluvian, and thus is taking risks that Hawke deemed dangerous. I wouldn't call her narcissistic, but more of a tunnel-vision sort of deal... she's so focused on the restoration of the mirror that she doesn't necessarily see how the consequences of her actions might affect others who care about her. Some might say that they were worth the risks, and some would disagree... but that's personal interpretation (as much as some folks on these boards would like to believe otherwise).

The long and the short of it is that Merrill's extremely dedicated to her goal, and the player has to make a decision without all of the facts. How you interpret it is ultimately up to Hawke's sense of security vs wanting to help her accomplish her goal.

[loranna238]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Before the storm starts, I just wanted to interject this:


Merrill could have been totally right, wrong, or something in between, but we're never given sufficient information to make that call. In doing so, she puts herself in a very bad position for a gamble - if everything goes according to plan, she's gambling her life against possibly finding out why the eluvian isn't working. If everything goes wrong, everyone dies and a powerful abomination runs around Kirkwall. This is why I went rivalry with her after the first playthrough (first playthrough = friendship)... too much I didn't know, and the impression I got from Merrill was that, while SHE might not care what happened to herself, Hawke, Varric, Isabela, etc. were all very concerned for her well-being and didn't want her to do it because it was simply too risky.

Is Merrill crazy or stupid? I don't think she is either. I think she is simply extremely focused on restoring the eluvian, and thus is taking risks that Hawke deemed dangerous. I wouldn't call her narcissistic, but more of a tunnel-vision sort of deal... she's so focused on the restoration of the mirror that she doesn't necessarily see how the consequences of her actions might affect others who care about her. Some might say that they were worth the risks, and some would disagree... but that's personal interpretation (as much as some folks on these boards would like to believe otherwise).

The long and the short of it is that Merrill's extremely dedicated to her goal, and the player has to make a decision without all of the facts. How you interpret it is ultimately up to Hawke's sense of security vs wanting to help her accomplish her goal.

Yes, but the reason she wanted to restore the mirror was so that she could be their hero.  At least that's the way I saw it.  And at the end, if you didn't play it this way (I watched the video), she was like, well, they killed themselves rather than accepting my wanting to save them.

"All this time I thought I could help them, save them, but they ended up destroying themselves to escape my help"

It just seems...very narcissitic to me. 

[Wulfram]

I get the impression you're interpreting Rivalry as hostility. It's not intended as such.

[hoorayforicecream]

loranna238 wrote...

Yes, but the reason she wanted to restore the mirror was so that she could be their hero.  At least that's the way I saw it.  And at the end, if you didn't play it this way (I watched the video), she was like, well, they killed themselves rather than accepting my wanting to save them.

"All this time I thought I could help them, save them, but they ended up destroying themselves to escape my help"

It just seems...very narcissitic to me. 

I wouldn't say it's narcissistic. I wouldn't agree that she wants glory or recognition from it. I felt like she genuinely believes that what she is doing will help her people greatly in the long run, and that's her goal. The word to describe that might be arrogant, but not narcissistic.

[loranna238]

PurebredCorn wrote...

Merrill is getting friendship because you supported her. Which is what her friendship/rivalry path is about. Friendship is supporting her decision, it's not "stuff she likes." Rivalry is trying to protect her from the consequences of her own decisions, or otherwise doubting her choices, which is why she gets rivalry from that choice.

I see what you are saying, but other characters, like Varric, or Aveline, actually accept attempts to reason with them when they are about to cross over to the dark side.  Merrill seems to listen to no one except people who support her decisions and coddle her, period.  Meanwhile to me you form real frienships with Aveline, who has her own inner self-confidence, or Varric as well, and actually help them, and they are friends back with you.  To me, part of being a friend is to stop and tell your friends sometimes, hey it's not a good idea  playing around with a demon, and though they might not like it at first, like Aveline didn't like you just telling Donnic she had a crush on him, they thank you later.

Merrill is givin multiple opportunities to turn from her path throughout the story, to avoid disaster, but she does not because she is determined to be the one who saves everyone and the one everyone loves.  Instead everyone turns out to hate her because her actions have no real love towards her tribe, cause horrible damage and are all about her becoming the one they admire, rather than revile.  Your character is also given these opportunities.  You can always tell her no, just no.  To me this would have been the better choice.  But regardless, to me she is not a true friend.  She is all about her and her need to be the hero, her need to be told she is right and everyone else is wrong, even if they all died.  She just can't deal with anything else, and if the player chooses that, then she cannot be involved with them, the way she had to leave her tribe.

It *is* narcisstic.

[primero holodon]

1. unless you train Merrill as a blood mage during combat, she only uses blood magic on only to move the barrier and to purify the mirror, so she isn't using it out of a desire for power like all other blood mages you meet. also the only time people die around Merrill is when Pol runs, when Marethari gets possessed and when the clan attacks Hawke, all of these are a result of Marethari's actions against Merrill not of Merrill's blood magic.

2. the same can be said for all companions. believe it or not, telling people off because they did something wrong doesn't endear you to that person

3. again This is  result of Marethari's actions, The clan does harm to itself due to Marethari being overly cautious about Merrill.

4.  Because Merrill knew what she was doing something dangerous, and she was trying to do things in a way that only put herself in danger, but since Marethari didn,t trust Merrill to do that she sacrificed herself in a way that, in Merrill's eyes, Might have been compleatley unnessecary.

5. This is precisely why she wanted Hawke there, so that If she failed and became possessed then she would be killed by Hawke before anyone else was put in danger, hardly irresponsible.

6. The clan attacks Merrill out of anger, without bothering to see if it truely was Merrills fault or not. and even if Merrill hadn't been a blood mage in that situation the result would have been the same.

7. This is because Merrill believes that if caution is used it is possible to use a demon and come out on top, which is true seeing as how she's done that twice before without getting possesed.

[loranna238]

Wulfram wrote...

I get the impression you're interpreting Rivalry as hostility. It's not intended as such.

It just seems to me that with Merrill rivalry is hostility.  Though - I haven't played the path where I rejected her.  All I know is that I was appalled with myself for encouraging her.   I really wanted to tell her to go take a hike from the getgo.

[Mr.House]

Izzy: The most evil Merrill does is pick flowers from people's gardens.

[AgelessTimeless]

Mr.House wrote...

Izzy: The most evil Merrill does is pick flowers from people's gardens.

Agreed, Personally she is the least evil character in the game.

[phyreblade74]

Merill, to me, comes off as arrogant, prideful -- sort of like a bratty teenager convinced she knows oh-so-much-better than everyone else around her and no matter the experience and knowledge those others might possess in a very been-there-done-that sort of way. She has that singular, narrow-minded approach common to teens, anyway; the one that says nothing bad will happen to them, bad stuff only happens to other people. Usually people far away, to boot. Hence, her very easy and ready response to any criticism you might offer, the one that says, "I know what I'm doing!"

I don't think there's anything inherently evil or bad about her. Nor do I think she's crazy, a kook, or loony. She really is a cute, likeable character, enough I simply have to do everything I can to stop her from moving down that self-destructive path she's merrily tripping her way down. And, yes, that earns me plenty of rivalry, every time. Oh well, sigh.

Ironically enough, since you posted this. I was struggling last night with wondering if I should take her friend or rival, just as I was preparing to head into the fade to save Feynrael. She was leaning to friend with me at that point, and I was tempted to follow along that path, just to see where it'd end up. And then she said, of Feynrael, "The Keeper will help this half-breed but not me?!" I was stunned, sitting there, thinking of how utterly selfish of her that was, how myopic a view it was. Rival it is, shrug.

[loranna238]

primero holodon wrote...

1. unless you train Merrill as a blood mage during combat, she only uses blood magic on only to move the barrier and to purify the mirror, so she isn't using it out of a desire for power like all other blood mages you meet. also the only time people die around Merrill is when Pol runs, when Marethari gets possessed and when the clan attacks Hawke, all of these are a result of Marethari's actions against Merrill not of Merrill's blood magic.

I disagree with this because you end up slaughtering her whole tribe, but do understand the point about the blood magic.  Which is one reason why I came to the other conclusion.

2. the same can be said for all companions. believe it or not, telling people off because they did something wrong doesn't endear you to that person

No, it doesn't, but keeping them from going over to the darkside, like in Varric's case, seems to assist with their friendship, or doing things they don't like like telling Donnic that Aveline likes him helps her out.  I'm not saying that sometimes the characters don't like what you are telling them and reject you (like Fenris in letting his sister go when she betrayed him), is bad, only that its consistently bad with Merrill. It's a pattern.

3. again This is  result of Marethari's actions, The clan does harm to itself due to Marethari being overly cautious about Merrill.

Merrill set herself apart from her clan in order to be the hero.  She was "going to save them all."  Instead of being friends with them and feeling that they didn't like what she was doing, instead of maybe listening to what they were saying, she instead chose to continue to save them against their will.  The Marethari killing herself is also seems like someone who is giving someone narcissitic supply.  Merrill will...be safe.  Merrill, not the tribe.  Merrill's needs above all others.  Sacrificing herself for Merrill.

The clan was uneasy because, if I am remembering correclty, the things Merrill is doing are having a bad effect on everything.  Yet she continues to do them, continues to set herself apart and try to be their savior, by continuing with something that has already had negative effects, that is going against her tribe and that they do NOT want.

4.  Because Merrill knew what she was doing something dangerous, and she was trying to do things in a way that only put herself in danger, but since Marethari didn,t trust Merrill to do that she sacrificed herself in a way that, in Merrill's eyes, Might have been compleatley unnessecary.

Merrill was playing with fire, and the Marethari let her continue to do it.  Why did she let her continue?  She could have really stopped her at some point.  And the things she was doing were not only putting herself in danger, but her whole tribe.  It was irresponsible, no matter what, even if she did bring Hawke and co with her.  I mean she could have stopped, but instead said let's go see the demon again.   I think that the Keeper only knew at this point was that she wasn't going to stop, no matter what, and that's when she chose to save her.  

5. This is precisely why she wanted Hawke there, so that If she failed and became possessed then she would be killed by Hawke before anyone else was put in danger, hardly irresponsible.

Thus putting Hawke and the whole party in danger.  It was unnessary.  She could have stopped.  She could have but she didn't.  It's not like what she was doing was working so far.  She was being foolhardy, stupid and vainglorius.

6. The clan attacks Merrill out of anger, without bothering to see if it truely was Merrills fault or not. and even if Merrill hadn't been a blood mage in that situation the result would have been the same.

Everything that lead up to this is MERRILL'S FAULT.  That's the point.  And yes, they did attack her out of anger.  She was trying to save people who did not want her to save them, not at the risk she was taking, and the trouble it was causing!!!  Did she listen? NO!  She only listened when people told her that she was doing the right thing!

7. This is because Merrill believes that if caution is used it is possible to use a demon and come out on top, which is true seeing as how she's done that twice before without getting possesed.

It was still too much of a risk, and demons are apparently sneaky, as evidenced by what the Maretheri told her, that it was going to use her to make the mirror and then come out into the world, kill her and then go on a murderous rampage.

[A. Fox]

Merrill is just terribly naïve. She claims she's aware of the consequences, but in truth, it's because she hopes that she will never have to face them. That's why she says that if Marethari had believed in her nothing bad would have happened. It's always about the 'what if' with her, and it's a 'what if' that never goes wrong. The mirror will bring doom, yeah but what if I bring back my people's golden age? She believes in possibilities, which are usually unrealistic... but what if she was right the whole time? She's not evil, nor crazy, just... she just carried on with her vision.
And it's arguably that what happened to her tribe was her fault... they seemed too eager to attack her. They feared change, and she brought up the possibility. It seems more like they gave her a straight NO instead of listening to her, and that just encouraged her in the opposite direction.

[loranna238]

phyreblade74 wrote...

Ironically enough, since you posted this. I was struggling last night with wondering if I should take her friend or rival, just as I was preparing to head into the fade to save Feynrael. She was leaning to friend with me at that point, and I was tempted to follow along that path, just to see where it'd end up. And then she said, of Feynrael, "The Keeper will help this half-breed but not me?!" I was stunned, sitting there, thinking of how utterly selfish of her that was, how myopic a view it was. Rival it is, shrug.

Yes, because she is so great and going to save everyone, and so pure.  I'm just saying, jeesh.  Everything smacked of wrong with her.

[AgelessTimeless]

Honestly I don't see how it is her fault. I blame the keeper for causing the whole series of events.

[loranna238]

A. Fox wrote...

Merrill is just terribly naïve. She claims she's aware of the consequences, but in truth, it's because she hopes that she will never have to face them. That's why she says that if Marethari had believed in her nothing bad would have happened. It's always about the 'what if' with her, and it's a 'what if' that never goes wrong. The mirror will bring doom, yeah but what if I bring back my people's golden age? She believes in possibilities, which are usually unrealistic... but what if she was right the whole time? She's not evil, nor crazy, just... she just carried on with her vision.
And it's arguably that what happened to her tribe was her fault... they seemed too eager to attack her. They feared change, and she brought up the possibility. It seems more like they gave her a straight NO instead of listening to her, and that just encouraged her in the opposite direction.

To me, as this occurred over the process of nine years, that they had given her plenty of opportunity to rejoin the tribe and think like a normal person.  Nine years is plenty of time to grow up.

[jlb524]

Ah, I don't think blood magic or blood mages are inherently evil and I don't think Merrill is evil or everything that happened was part of an evil plan she cooked up in her Alienage home.

I think Merrill does have a nice, warm caring, heart and does sincerely want to do something to help her people and part of that is so they will finally accept her. It seems to me she has had issues with interpersonal relationships even amongst the Dalish and, as a result, has a pretty poor self-image in regards to her relationships with other people. She even says she would make a terrible Keeper, and these issues come up in other places like during the romance or when she compares herself to Isabela in one of their banters.

However, she's good at magic and knows a lot of history and this is the one source of her self-love and pride. It's not surprising that when she finally finds an opportunity to restore an ancient elven artifact using her knowledge of magic/history she goes all out, gets "tunnel vision" and obsesses over it. I'm assuming that finding any ancient elven artifact is quite rare, so I'm sure Merrill feels that this is a once in a life time chance to do something for her people in the only way that she could help her people (in her mind).

[LobselVith8]

[quote]loranna238 wrote...

At first, I was thinking more along the lines of evil/crazy, but at the close of this I figured she was just Narcassistic.

I am not disputing she is cute, or charming, or funny.

I'm not trying to crush anyone's absolute love for her. You can still love her, that's your choice.  But - in real life, that probably wouldn't work out, I mean, it didn't work out for the Keeper. The reason I ask the question is because of the following. [/quote]

In real life, there are no elves and people aren't capable of performing magic as the mages are in Thedas. I find Merrill to be one of the companions who best understands magic and the dangers posed by spirits, so I think I would trust someone like her in real life. Merrill mastered blood magic, she was adept enough at regular magic to know whether a templar recruit was possessed or not, she understands that all spirits are dangerous, and she is willing to give up her life for the slim chance that the People can reclaim their legacy and culture.

[quote]loranna238 wrote...

1) First, and foremost, Merrill is a blood mage. She chose this path, despite the discouragement of others. She may have chosen it out of love of her clan to start with, but to me the blood magic perverts you and if you look at it closely enough, and do whatever she wants even while she is weeping about the effects of it, people just...die. Which is of course what a blood mage would want. [/quote]

Merrill is a blood mage, and so are Grey Warden mages who use blood magic. The Joining is a form of blood magic. The phylacteries are a form of blood magic. Finn performs a type of blood magic to locate the Eluvian. I don't see anything wrong with blood magic, since it can be used for benevolent or malevolent purposes, no different than any other weapon.

[quote]loranna238 wrote...

2.) Any attempt to be an actual friend to Merrill in the game, and not simply tell her that it's ok, you didn't do anything wrong, meets with a rivalry increase. The first meeting I had with her in the alienage had me bewildered - my character told her what I would have told her, in a loving way, and then came away with a huge rivalry boost. When I chose the path that just screamed wrong, it had the opposite. I didn't actually play the romance, but this to me even seemed wrong if you were human, and leading her astray, the wrong way. [/quote]

Rivalry works that way for every companion. As for Merrill, she wants to restore the lost knowledge of the fallen kingdom of Arlathan to help her people. Wanting to save her people from their abysmal existence doesn't make Merrill evil or crazy, and I don't see why you would consider her either because of her willingness to give up her life for the chance that the People could benefit from this knowledge.

[quote]loranna238 wrote...

3.) Repeated examples of where what she has done is actually hurting her clan do not dissuade her from continuing with her plans, even though for instance when Pol runs from her she weeps about how he thought she was a monster and they all must do so. Instead, she decides to go see the demon, again. [/quote]

Merrill never hurts the clan, so this is factually incorrect. Marethari's deceptions about Merrill, which are made in an attempt to coerce Merrill to abandon her efforts and come back to the clan, are responsible for the incidents of Pol's death and the clan's attempted murder of Hawke and Merrill in "Mirror Image."

[quote]loranna238 wrote...

4.) While her mother/keeper's body is not yet cold, if instead of telling her, "girl, you knew the risks!" you say that the mother was stupid...(for sacrificing herself to save Merrill, which, when I 'm starting to think it probably was rather stupid, but also probably was necessary for the tribe as well - even though that's not why she did it) instead of reacting that she made a mistake and that this was all her fault and she would make amends, she instead states that she should have believed in her (Merrill), which..is just wrong. [/quote]

It's not wrong. Marethari accepted a demon into her because her speculation lead her to believe that the Eluvian would allow Audacity to escape, and this could be exactly what the demon had planned all along.

[quote]loranna238 wrote...

5.) Yes, you could argue that she was willing to accept the danger in herself, however, it just seems to me that actions speak louder than words, and this was never put to the test. During what happened later, everything she is saying is designed to keep her involved with the clan, rather than actually taking responsibility. If you, instead take responsibility Merrill does say she is sorry still does not say she was wrong. She instead still beats the dead horse of "I would have had it be me!" [/quote]

Your opinion that Merrill is wrong doesn't make it fact. I don't think Merrill was wrong, but we're never afforded an opportunity to see how things would have turned out otherwise because Marethari endangers her entire clan by accepting a demon inside her and telling no one about it until Merrill and Hawke drop by.

[quote]loranna238 wrote...

Looking at this however, if the demon had taken possession of her she could have possibly killed Hawke and the others, and then rampaged through her tribe like a teenager at an all you can eat pizzaria. Not everyone has Hawke's skills, and from what Anders said before an abomination is a scarey thing, and by this time you've built Merrill into some kind of super mage. This is not good. At the very least it's irresponsible and foolhardy. [/quote]

What's irresponsible and foolhardly? You mean when Merrill asked Hawke, who has killed an innumerable amount of abominations, apostates, demons, dragons, and other dangerous creatures over the past several years, to kill her the moment she became an abomination (if she lost a battle of wills with Audacity)?

[quote]loranna238 wrote...

6.) If you keep going along Merrill's merry path, you end up killing the very tribe she was trying to save. As Merrill is a blood mage, this seems a bit suspicious to me. [/quote]

The two events aren't remotely connected.

[quote]loranna238 wrote...

7.) If you destroy evil texts in her presence, it meets with a rivalry increase.  However, this could be that she just wanted to be the savior of her tribe. [/quote]

Destroying knowledge that can be of use to people is seen is idiotic to some people, and Merrill wants to help all the elven people by restoring the lost knowledge from the fallen kingdom of Arlathan, even if it means her death. I don't see why you think she simply wants to be the savior of her tribe when she's doing this despite the hatred that Marethari has cultivated amongst the clan members.

[quote]loranna238 wrote...

The whole thing withe Merril just seemed to be...wrong, from the very start. The only other character besides you, if you happen to choose to encourage pure rivalry with her, that seems to see this is Fenris. She just...felt wrong to me. I wanted to believe that she was good, her weeping was really effective, but really but to me if you pay attention to what she is actually doing it seems a lot like subterfuge or maybe she's narcissistic with an inferiority complex, which really...doesn't make any sense. [/quote]

Merrill is never proven to be wrong about the Eluvian. Marethari's speculation about what could have happened are not fact.

[quote]loranna238 wrote...

So is she crazy? Is she manipulative and just trying to get more bodies to pile up because she's a blood mage? Is she just insecure? [/quote]

Are you going to ask any more questions that are completely inaccurate about Merrill?

[quote]loranna238 wrote...

If she's so insecure why does she keep rejecting how the other elves respond to what she is doing, and continuing on her path? Why does she, in mourning her keeper, say really that it was her fault because she didn't believe in Merrill? It makes no sense...none of it does. I wanted to from the moment I saw her, leave her be and not have her in my party or anything but continued with it because of the plotline, and the off chance she might be some kind of crazed genious. But the more things went on, the more evident that this was bad and wrong, the more she did not turn back from what she was doing, and the more the choices I made seemed to be wrong. [/quote]

It makes perfect sense. Marethari endangered the entire clan and didn't trust in Merrill's goals, which got her killed. Marethari's speculation about what could happen lead to her becoming an abomination. Marethari was acting on either her imagination or what Audacity claimed would happen, and if the latter is true, then the Keeper fell right into Audacity's trap by releasing the demon from a totem that held it through ancient elven magic.

[quote]loranna238 wrote...

When I did a first playthrough, after one half-hearted attempt to kill the elves, the wrongness of this just got to me. I went back and had to choose the option where I'd keep her from using her blood magic to harm anyone, which is exactly what she said she had wanted when you entered the cave...but this resulted in a huge rivalry increase, even though the elves survived, which is what *I* wanted, and did not sacrifice them to Merrill the way the Keeper sacrificed herself for her with nothing in return, not even Merrill learning her lesson. [/quote]

Merrill gives rivalry because of what you say, not what you do. Mary Kirby directly addressed this in explaining why she gives approval and rivalry in this scene.

[quote]loranna238 wrote...

To me, if you chose this path and encouraged her this was very very wrong. How much of a sacrifice is too much? Would the player's character be asked to kill themselves for her if possible to protect her pride and ego? Interesting also how it was a pride demon that confronted her, and not a desire demon or any other kind. [/quote]

You mean Merrill deciding that only her life should be put on the line for a chance to restore the knowledge of the lost kingdom of Arlathan? And it was a Pride Demon - Audacity - that commandered control of Marethari. That should be sufficient to tell you abou the Keeper falling prey to Audacity and becoming an abomination while Merrill didn't.

[quote]loranna238 wrote...

I am now approaching the thought that she is crazy at this point. Since I couldn't go down the path where I massacred the elves she was swearing to protect, I actually watched an online video of someone that did. It was so hard to watch as Merrill is facing - of all things a clouded mirror which has no reflection so she cannot see herself (the mirror btw is the universal symbol of narcissm, as Narcissus in Greek mythology fell in love with his reflection in some kind of pool and drowned) - and instead of destroying the damned thing is convinced again how she was right and everyone else was wrong and that they all killed themselves rather than believe in her help; she turns to the player as he tells her again, that they were wrong, she was right, and says she loves him, when what to me is that she loves the fact that he is endulging her and providing her a supply.  If you had discouraged her, as a true friend would, then she would not be so warm and fuzzy. [/quote]

Please don't claim what a "true friend" would do. Your post is full of you pushing forward your opinions as though they were fact, and I find virtually everything you'd said to be inaccurate. When the clan tries to murder Merrill in cold blood because Hawke told them the truth, Merrill laments their deaths, but the clan is fully responsible for th attempted murder of Hawke and Merrill simply because they didn't lie about Marethari's fate.

[quote]loranna238 wrote...

So at this point I am going towards Narcissistic, and with the mirror it seems rather obvious..

In addition, she always wanted to be the one to "save" her clan, the hero, although they would have just welcomed her if she just was one of them and she decided instead to stand apart, to be their savior, and did horrible things to do so, and in the end when they were all dead, she was like it was their fault, and not her own. [/quote]

It was all their fault. The clan tries to murder Hawke and Merrill, and they defend themselves against cold blooded murder.

[quote]loranna238 wrote...

Yes, definitely narcissitic, with people sacrificing for her and supplying her confidence and justification, her proof that she is right and never wrong.

I realize this is a game, but also I have to pause here for a moment and say that Bioware is genious.  This made me really think and care. I was appalled by Merrill. [/quote]

You're apparently appalled at Merrill because she has the stength to stand by her convictions in wanting to help her people, even if it costs Merrill her life.

[quote]loranna238 wrote...

I know many people out there will hate me for that, but really - I was appalled. When I do my next play-through I will reject her completely, as I thought my character should have done in the first place, from the moment when she sat down and told Merrill what seemed like the wisest thing to tell her. [/quote]

So this entire post was you venting about Merrill having a differing opinion than you?

[quote]loranna238 wrote...

Rejecting her of course will have its consequences, like everything in the game, but at least I would feel less dirty playing it if I do so.  I also realize that my character is not myself, but really this drew me in.  I applaud this, I truly do.[/quote]

I have to wonder what the point of this post is. You seem to take issue with Merrill having an opinion, but nothing you have said sways me to side with you, mostly because you make a lot of inaccurate claims that don't stand up to the facts.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 25 avril 2011 - 10:13 .

[Mr.House]

jlb524 wrote...

Ah, I don't think blood magic or blood mages are inherently evil and I don't think Merrill is evil or everything that happened was part of an evil plan she cooked up in her Alienage home.

I think Merrill does have a nice, warm caring, heart and does sincerely want to do something to help her people and part of that is so they will finally accept her. It seems to me she has had issues with interpersonal relationships even amongst the Dalish and, as a result, has a pretty poor self-image in regards to her relationships with other people. She even says she would make a terrible Keeper, and these issues come up in other places like during the romance or when she compares herself to Isabela in one of their banters.

However, she's good at magic and knows a lot of history and this is the one source of her self-love and pride. It's not surprising that when she finally finds an opportunity to restore an ancient elven artifact using her knowledge of magic/history she goes all out, gets "tunnel vision" and obsesses over it. I'm assuming that finding any ancient elven artifact is quite rare, so I'm sure Merrill feels that this is a once in a life time chance to do something for her people in the only way that she could help her people (in her mind).

If anything, her big issue is her pride and her naivie(sp) view on certain things.

[loranna238]

AgelessTimeless wrote...

Honestly I don't see how it is her fault. I blame the keeper for causing the whole series of events.

I think the keeper was trying to save her from herself and gave her ample opportunity to turn back from her chosen path, which would have destroyed her.  To that end, it is partially the Keeper's fault.  She let Merrill go because she loved her instead of just putting a stop to it like she should have.  The keeper loved her, and sacrificed everything for her.  What did this get her in return? Instead of saying, the path I took was wrong - Merrill was more into, she should have trusted *me,*  *believed in me*.  When the evidence of what she did was wrong laid on the ground before in a pool of chilling blood.

Yet, despite this it was Merrill who chose to continue even though the evidence kept mounting that everything was wrong.

This does not take away from the argument stating that Merrill is narcissistic.  Like I said, she turned away from the mirror, the mirror, to the one person who kept telling her that she was right, rather than wrong.  She should have smashed the damn thing.  Constructive criticism is not something that Narcissists can accept, and that's what I was trying to do with my character, but I suppose in order to reach that point you have to give her her supply.

[TheAwesomologist]

phyreblade74 wrote...
Ironically enough, since you posted this. I was struggling last night with wondering if I should take her friend or rival, just as I was preparing to head into the fade to save Feynrael. She was leaning to friend with me at that point, and I was tempted to follow along that path, just to see where it'd end up. And then she said, of Feynrael, "The Keeper will help this half-breed but not me?!" I was stunned, sitting there, thinking of how utterly selfish of her that was, how myopic a view it was. Rival it is, shrug.

I've romanced Merrill 3 times and always take her to the fade with me*, but I have yet to hear her utter that line. In fact when the little cut scene of Merethari walking around the alienage happens she never appears on screen. Sad. I was hoping for more interaction between Merrill and the Keeper.

*I accept the deal. Talent points are just to hard to pass up. Sorry kid, you're worth more XP in Act 3 this way too.

Anyways, back to the topic.

[LobselVith8]

loranna238 wrote...

Yes, but the reason she wanted to restore the mirror was so that she could be their hero. 

I see a lot of speculation and conjecture in the original post pushes forward as fact, and I don't see a point in asking others if Merrill is evil of crazy if she simply wants to push her opinions as facts. Merrill wants to help her people, she wants to fulfill the Dalish mantra of restoring the elven past so all the elves can benefit from what can potentially be unveiled from the reconstruction of the Eluvian.

loranna238 wrote...

And at the end, if you didn't play it this way (I watched the video), she was like, well, they killed themselves rather than accepting my wanting to save them.

"All this time I thought I could help them, save them, but they ended up destroying themselves to escape my help"

It just seems...very narcissitic to me. 

The clan does kill themselves in their attempted murder of Hawke and Merrill, and she mourns their loss when they are all dead. This goes back to Marethari, and the Keeper poisoning the clan against the former First who is going so much to try to restore the secrets of the Arlathan elves. Merrill took issue with Marethari's refusal to assist her in this goal because Merrill has a firm conviction in her goal to help her people reclaim the knowledge that has been lost for many centuries, while Marethari is content to do nothing until she risks the entire clan by accepting a demon into her body and telling no one about it. Merrill, in contrast, trusted Hawke - who has a long history of killing dragons, demons, abominations and the like - to kill her the moment she turns if she loses a battle of wills with the demon Audacity.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 25 avril 2011 - 10:13 .

[AgelessTimeless]

Honestly to me the storyline with her seemed to be suggesting that in fact she could complete the mirror. Considering that with the tool she made more progress and just needed to find out the last thing to fix it, admittedly not the best choice to go consult the demon for that information but it makes sense to do so if you look at it the right way. It's not narcissism to believe that you can accomplish something when the previous events argue that you can.