407 réponses à ce sujet

[dragonflight288]

Wow, I go to class and work, when I come home there are two new pages of arguments? I have spent the last half hour reading people's arguments for and against, and pondering things very closely.

Let's start off with that basic question. Does Merrill have flaws? Of course she does. She has a very narrow vision of her course of action. She, having spent almost all her life studying under the keeper and the Dalish lore, is woefully ignorant and naive about the world around her outside of that. She is far from stupid, just inexperienced.

But, I said this before, and I can't believe I'm going to have to say this again. The Dalish lore and their storytellers in Origins make it VERY clear what they are trying to accomplish.

1. Gather and relearn everything there was to the ancient kingdom of Arlathan.
2. Regain a homeland for the elves to call their own.
3. Teach the city elves all the lost lore.

Three simple rules to live by. That purpose unites all the Dalish clans. Each clan is led by their Keeper (who is always a mage). And it is each individual clan's responsibility to slay their Keeper if they turn into an abomination.

The biggest problem people seem to have against Merrill is the blood magic, the demon, and her ignorance about the world of humans. People also seem to require a guarantee that what she's doing will help the Dalish.

To the issue on Blood magic, need I remind people that the Chantry controls the lyrium trade with the dwarves. If she wanted lyrium to purify the shard, she'd have to go the Chantry, reveal herself as a mage, and likely end up in the Circle. So that's out of the question.

As for the demon, Audacity was the only one who could teach Merrill anything she needed to know. And as mentioned above, she only went to the demon three times. The first time was with Merethari. The second time was to learn blood magic and how to purify the mirror fragment. The third time was to learn how to activate the mirror, only to find it possessing Merethari.

That demon is trapped inside a statue. So long as it stayed there, it was no threat to anyone. And Merrill did bring Hawke along to kill her should she be possessed. No matter how many people call her stupid, no one has ever been able to argue that she is reckless and lacks foresight and say that one fact. She had made preparations for the worst case scenario.

As for the ignorance. That's no sillier than a dwarf fearing they'll fall up into the sky because they don't have the experience to know any better. Outside the internet, I live in a western civilization. Should I move to Japan or China, I would probably be just as out of place and ignorant as Merrill is in Kirkwall.

If you are asking for a guarantee that she'll succeed, I can't give you one. If you want proof that what she does WILL help all the Dalish, I again must disappoint you. But what is guaranteed is that if the Dalish do nothing, they'll have nothing left to save of their once great empire. They are losing so much, little by little. Then there's the eluvian.

Morrigan has proven that they are portals and lead somewhere. Finn shows they can be used for communication over long distances. Say all the Dalish clans had an eluvian and one clan (Origins) is given a homeland. They could call ALL the Dalish at once, within hours instead of months or years, and within a few months they'd have it settled and rising. That alone would be beneficial.

Merrill doesn't have anything else to work with. She may die, she may fail and find nothing. She may be isolating herself for no reason. But, she is living up to the Dalish mission, which I mentioned. She is seeking to find ways to improve her people. She has been working for almost a decade to provide her people a portion of what they had lost.

There is no guarantee, but she believes it is worth the risk. It's better than the alternative. And I agree with that.

[LobselVith8]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't think it's pragmatic to do nothing as opposed to something, particularly if there's a chance for the people to benefit.

LobselVith8 wrote...
 I never claimed you advocated doing nothing.

 Maybe you didn't claim I did, but you're sure arguing against doing nothing... which nobody else is saying.

So you bolded two lines that verify that I didn't state that you said anything of the kind? And Marethari and her people are doing nothing but waiting for halla while Merrill is risking her neck for an opportunity that can help the Dalish people.

hoorayforicecream wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

And people are addressing that the Eluvian represents the best possible method to reclaim a part of Arlathan, besides hoping that the clan stumbles upon something in their travels.

What people?

The people who disagree with you, hoorayforicecream. The people who have spent several pages addressing why they don't think Merrill is wrong for pursuing the Eluvian when there really aren't any other options to pursue, besides travelling the world and hoping to discover something of interest (and so far, the clans have travelled for centuries, and are still wanderers without a home). The clans have been in stagnation, continually wandering as they lose their magic and their numbers dwindle (as Velanna addressed to Oghren, since the dwarves were also dwindling in number because of "tradition").

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Best possible method compared to what?

What are the Dalish currently doing to reclaim their lost culture? Ariane indicates that the Circle took some of their knowledge after the Exalted Marches of the Dales, and the Imperium is responsible for a great deal more during the fall of Arlathan. So far, all we've seen is that the clans investigate ruins and hope to stumble upon something of interest, but that's apparently it. In contrast, Merrill is building a form of technology that leads to a place beyond this world, and beyond the Fade - the full extent of its abilities eluded the Magisters of the Imperium, and Merrill believes that the Eluvian will benefit her people.

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Are you still peddling that false dichotomy of "eluvian or nothing" that nobody besides you actually said?

Are you still peddling the claim that I attributed "doing nothing" to you specifically? Considering that Marethari's clan have been sitting at the top of Sundermount and effectively done nothing besides getting slaughtered by the Varterral, I don't see the clan doing anything proactive in getting back their culture except hoping to stumble upon the answer.

hoorayforicecream wrote...

If you are going to continue making up arguments against your stance and then argue against them, then please stop quoting me. It's confusing.

I addressed that there's the possibility that the People can benefit from Merrill's research and success, while you think it isn't worth it.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 29 avril 2011 - 12:48 .

[Addai]

dragonflight288 wrote...

1. Gather and relearn everything there was to the ancient kingdom of Arlathan.
2. Regain a homeland for the elves to call their own.
3. Teach the city elves all the lost lore.

In order to do this, they have to survive.  That is really their first priority- why they split up into nomadic clans.  It's that priority that Merrill (and Marethari, coming into conflict with Merrill) is threatening.

Their three rules are really the Vir Assan, Vir Bor'Assan and Vir Adahlen- the last of which says "together we are stronger than the one."  By pursuing her task against the wishes of her keeper and clan to the point of separating from them, she broke a cardinal rule and her whole clan pays for it to one extent or another.

Modifié par Addai67, 29 avril 2011 - 12:21 .

[dragonflight288]

...give me a moment to compose my thoughts about those points. Very well made. I'll likely have a good rebuttal in a few moments, but I just wanted to say good point.

[Wye]

Compared to other Blood Mages, Merrill is a box full of kittens.

[TEWR]

If they really wanted to be stronger than the one, the clan would've supported her instead of letting fear overrule rational thought.

They made Merrill a pariah just as much as she did.

[Joy Divison]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Nobody is advocating stagnation. People are advocating a more constructive use of her time instead of the eluvian, preferably one that doesn't potentially end in Merrill's death.

That's Merrill's decision to make.  Just because you and other people think it is a waste of time/resources/brainpower does not automatically make it so.

[wickedgoodreed]

Addai67 wrote...
Their three rules are really the Vir Assan, Vir Bor'Assan and Vir Adahlen- the last of which says "together we are stronger than the one."  By pursuing her task against the wishes of her keeper and clan to the point of separating from them, she broke a cardinal rule and her whole clan pays for it to one extent or another.

According to this codex entry, that's not what Vir Adhalen says:

Vir Adahlen: the Way of the Wood
Receive the gifts of the hunt with mindfulness.
Respect the sacrifice of my children
Know that your passing shall nourish them in turn.
That is my Way.

"Together we are stronger than the one" isn't part of the Vir Tanadhal as far as I can tell. 

[hoorayforicecream]

Joy Divison wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Nobody is advocating stagnation. People are advocating a more constructive use of her time instead of the eluvian, preferably one that doesn't potentially end in Merrill's death.

That's Merrill's decision to make.  Just because you and other people think it is a waste of time/resources/brainpower does not automatically make it so.

Somebody can choose to stick her hand into a garbage disposal. That's her decision to make. Just because I and other people think that it's a waste of time/resources/brainpower/a perfectly good hand doesn't automatically make it so. 

[Joy Divison]

Addai67 wrote...

In order to do this, they have to survive.  That is really their first priority- why they split up into nomadic clans.  It's that priority that Merrill (and Marethari, coming into conflict with Merrill) is threatening.

Their three rules are really the Vir Assan, Vir Bor'Assan and Vir Adahlen- the last of which says "together we are stronger than the one."  By pursuing her task against the wishes of her keeper and clan to the point of separating from them, she broke a cardinal rule and her whole clan pays for it to one extent or another.

I don't think Merrill's supporters will argue that she is not breaking w/ Dalish dogma.  In fact, Merrill herself acknowledges this, accepts it, and takes responsbility for her status as a Dalish pariah.

The issue then becomes how much value you place on dogmatism and cardinal societal traditions.  Personally I'm not a big fan; next time you play Origins take a look at Orzammar, Dust Town, and Harrowmont for why. 

[TEWR]

If Person A sticks Person B's hand into a garbage disposal, there was no choice made on the part of Person B.

So respectfully I ask this.... what's your point?

edit: unless you meant that Person A was the only person near the garbage disposal, in which case your post wasn't as clear as it could've been or I'm experiencing a slight case of stupid today.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 29 avril 2011 - 01:33 .

[LobselVith8]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Somebody can choose to stick her hand into a garbage disposal. That's her decision to make. Just because I and other people think that it's a waste of time/resources/brainpower/a perfectly good hand doesn't automatically make it so. 

Sten thought it was a time for the Warden to venture into Haven, too. Just because people disagree with a course of action doesn't always make them right.

[Joy Divison]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Somebody can choose to stick her hand into a garbage disposal. That's her decision to make. Just because I and other people think that it's a waste of time/resources/brainpower/a perfectly good hand doesn't automatically make it so. 

You are far too intelligent to need to resort to such nonsensical hyperbole.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 29 avril 2011 - 01:35 .

[hoorayforicecream]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

If Person A sticks Person B's hand into a garbage disposal, there was no choice made on the part of Person B.

So respectfully I ask this.... what's your point?

Nobody is sticking Merrill's hand in the garbage disposal. She's choosing to do it on her own. I'm simply expressing my disapproval of her choice.

[TEWR]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

If Person A sticks Person B's hand into a garbage disposal, there was no choice made on the part of Person B.

So respectfully I ask this.... what's your point?

Nobody is sticking Merrill's hand in the garbage disposal. She's choosing to do it on her own. I'm simply expressing my disapproval of her choice.

except your way of expressing it is foolish. Merrill and the Eluvian =/= Garbage Disposal and some idiot shoving their hand down that hole.

Especially when there is no danger at all from the Eluvian anymore

[hoorayforicecream]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Nobody is sticking Merrill's hand in the garbage disposal. She's choosing to do it on her own. I'm simply expressing my disapproval of her choice.

except your way of expressing it is foolish. Merrill and the Eluvian =/= Garbage Disposal and some idiot shoving their hand down that hole.

Especially when there is no danger at all from the Eluvian anymore

There's the little matter of dealing with a pride demon in order to figure out what's wrong with the completely not-dangerous eluvian.

[TEWR]

Which Merrill only goes to see a total of 3 times, as I stated once before.

1) When she's with Marethari
2) When she learns Blood Magic
3) When she takes Hawke along with her, which was when Marethari foolishly freed it from its' prison.

I fail to see any danger in consorting with said spirit Audacity when she had been working on the Eluvian alone for 6 years without talking to the spirit.

[Maria Caliban]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Especially when there is no danger at all from the Eluvian anymore

Did you not listen to Merrill after you accept her Act 3 quest?

Merrill: Aveline, you'll look after Hawke, won't you?
Aveline: Of course I will. What kind of a question is that?
Merrill: And sometimes Isabela gets into awful trouble. You'll watch out for her, too?
Aveline: Merrill... what brought this on?
Merrill: Anything could happen. You'll protect them, though. It's what you do.
Aveline: There's nothing to worry about, Merrill.

Did you miss the part where she asks you to killer her if she's possessed?

Varric: Does anybody else get the feeling that this is going to end badly? Just me huh?
Merrill: It's not all bad Varric, think of the stories you'll be able to tell later.
Varric: No offence Daisy, but I could live without telling anyone that we murdered you on some mountain side, it's little hard to make that one sound good.

What she's doing is dangerous. It could lead to her death. In fact, Merrill seems to be of the opinion that her chances of dying are quite high.

[LobselVith8]

Maria Caliban wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Especially when there is no danger at all from the Eluvian anymore

Did you not listen to Merrill after you accept her Act 3 quest?

Merrill: Aveline, you'll look after Hawke, won't you?
Aveline: Of course I will. What kind of a question is that?
Merrill: And sometimes Isabela gets into awful trouble. You'll watch out for her, too?
Aveline: Merrill... what brought this on?
Merrill: Anything could happen. You'll protect them, though. It's what you do.
Aveline: There's nothing to worry about, Merrill.

Did you miss the part where she asks you to killer her if she's possessed?

Varric: Does anybody else get the feeling that this is going to end badly? Just me huh?
Merrill: It's not all bad Varric, think of the stories you'll be able to tell later.
Varric: No offence Daisy, but I could live without telling anyone that we murdered you on some mountain side, it's little hard to make that one sound good.

What she's doing is dangerous. It could lead to her death. In fact, Merrill seems to be of the opinion that her chances of dying are quite high.

You're misconstruing what Ethereal Writer Redux said. The Eluvian isn't dangerous because it's no longer tainted by the darkspawn corruption; Merrill is in no danger of being corrupted and turning into a ghoul because she used blood magic to cleanse the shard. Her venture into Sundermount to speak with Audacity is for the pursuit of knowledge that would enable her to complete the Eluvian, and that task has been addressed time and again as dangerous.

[TEWR]

Maria Caliban wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Especially when there is no danger at all from the Eluvian anymore

Did you not listen to Merrill after you accept her Act 3 quest?

Merrill: Aveline, you'll look after Hawke, won't you?
Aveline: Of course I will. What kind of a question is that?
Merrill: And sometimes Isabela gets into awful trouble. You'll watch out for her, too?
Aveline: Merrill... what brought this on?
Merrill: Anything could happen. You'll protect them, though. It's what you do.
Aveline: There's nothing to worry about, Merrill.

Did you miss the part where she asks you to killer her if she's possessed?

Varric: Does anybody else get the feeling that this is going to end badly? Just me huh?
Merrill: It's not all bad Varric, think of the stories you'll be able to tell later.
Varric: No offence Daisy, but I could live without telling anyone that we murdered you on some mountain side, it's little hard to make that one sound good.

What she's doing is dangerous. It could lead to her death. In fact, Merrill seems to be of the opinion that her chances of dying are quite high.

you are taking my comment way out of context. I said from the Eluvian, not from dealing with the spirit regarding the Eluvian.

The Eluvian is no longer a threat. The spirit is, and always will be, until it's slain.

Also, I had that Aveline-Merrill banter trigger BEFORE I even accepted her quest.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 29 avril 2011 - 02:03 .

[hoorayforicecream]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

you are taking my comment way out of context. I said from the Eluvian, not from dealing with the spirit regarding the Eluvian.

The Eluvian is no longer a threat. The spirit is, and always will be, until it's slain.

Also, I had that Aveline-Merrill banter trigger BEFORE I even accepted her quest.

Allow me to clarify then. This is what you said:

except your way of expressing it is foolish. Merrill and the Eluvian =/= Garbage Disposal and some idiot shoving their hand down that hole.

Especially when there is no danger at all from the Eluvian anymore

Merrill + Eluvian =/= Garbage Disposal, and some idiot shoving her hand down that hole. Maybe. The jury is still out about the eluvian. But even if we assume that the eluvian is cleansed:

Merrill + Eluvian + seeking out Pride Demon = Garbage Disposal, and some idiot shoving her hand down that hole.

[TEWR]

Merrill + Eluvian =/= Garbage Disposal, and some idiot shoving her hand down that hole. Maybe. The jury is still out about the eluvian. But even if we assume that the eluvian is cleansed:

Merrill + Eluvian + seeking out Pride Demon = Garbage Disposal, and some idiot shoving her hand down that hole.

this is of course where people assume the demon, who had been trapped for centuries beyond counting, could use the Eluvian to escape. Which I can't see happening, because Merrill was explicitly told by Marethari it was trapped and couldn't escape. Then many years later, Marethari frees it because she forgot she said it was trapped forever and now thinks it can escape through the Eluvian.

Where she got that I don't know, but it's speculation on her part. And idiotic speculation at that given all the evidence we've seen (which although isn't much, it is enough to say Marethari was wrong.)

Because Blood Magic + Eluvian = Fancy Long Distance Telephone for Thedas. That's all the Tevinters got from it.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 29 avril 2011 - 02:24 .

[LobselVith8]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Merrill + Eluvian =/= Garbage Disposal, and some idiot shoving her hand down that hole. Maybe. The jury is still out about the eluvian. But even if we assume that the eluvian is cleansed:

Merrill + Eluvian + seeking out Pride Demon = Garbage Disposal, and some idiot shoving her hand down that hole.

Merrill took a risk on something that could irrevocably change her people's way of life for the better. You're free to disagree, of course. However, your analogy reminds me of The Warden, accompanied initially by a Mabari Hound, another Warden, and an apostate, faced the insurmountable task of gathering allies to save Ferelden from the Archdemon.  I'm certain that many could have easily said that trying to sway people against the Hero of River Dane = Garbage Disposal, but that didn't deter the eventual Hero of Ferelden from following a course of action that he deemed to be correct.

Although the perils are different, Merrill is doing something that she believes can save her people from their steady decline. Restoring something that was important in the kingdom of Arlathan is hardly the equivalent to putting your hand in the garbage disposal, especially when we're informed from Witch Hunt that the destination is important enough that Morrigan travelled far and wide to find the means to power an Eluvian to venture "beyond this world and beyond the Fade."

[Maria Caliban]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

this is of course where people assume the demon, who had been trapped for centuries beyond counting, could use the Eluvian to escape.

People get the notion that the demon could possess Merrill because Merrill tells you the demon might posses her.

That's why she asks you to possibly kill her!

Hoorayforicecream is not talking about the eluvian being dangerous. She's not talking about the demon hypothetically stepping out of the eluvian. She's talking about the danger that everyone in the game talks about!

What Merrill does is dangerous to herself. You've agreed with this for pages now. Don't suddenly act like you have no idea what she's referring to.

[TEWR]

You know, this is really getting us nowhere fast because everyone's just saying the same thing, making the same points, and we're all sticking to what we believe.