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[LobselVith8]

Maria Caliban wrote...

People get the notion that the demon could possess Merrill because Merrill tells you the demon might posses her.

No one disputes this. What I've seen from Merrill is someone with culture shock in a human city-state who has demonstrated her intellect and capability time and again: telling what type of demon inhabited the Profane in the Deep Roads, telling whether the templar was possessed or not, using blood magic for several years without an incident, and building a two thousand year old piece of elven technology that mystified even the Magisters. No one is saying that Merrill's path isn't dangerous, but her risks could lead to great rewards.

Maria Caliban wrote...

That's why she asks you to possibly kill her! 

Again, this isn't in dispute.

Maria Caliban wrote...

Hoorayforicecream is not talking about the eluvian being dangerous. She's not talking about the demon hypothetically stepping out of the eluvian. She's talking about the danger that everyone in the game talks about!

I thought she was talking about Garbage Disposals?

Maria Caliban wrote...

What Merrill does is dangerous to herself. You've agreed with this for pages now. Don't suddenly act like you have no idea what she's referring to.

Everyone is well aware of the danger that Merrill is going through, but the dichotomy is between those who think Merrill shouldn't take the risk, and those who support her decision to take risks that could fundamentally improve the elven way of life for future generations.

[TEWR]

Maria Caliban wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

this is of course where people assume the demon, who had been trapped for centuries beyond counting, could use the Eluvian to escape.

People get the notion that the demon could possess Merrill because Merrill tells you the demon might posses her.

That's why she asks you to possibly kill her!

Hoorayforicecream is not talking about the eluvian being dangerous. She's not talking about the demon hypothetically stepping out of the eluvian. She's talking about the danger that everyone in the game talks about!

What Merrill does is dangerous to herself. You've agreed with this for pages now. Don't suddenly act like you have no idea what she's referring to.

*sigh...*

Yes I've said she knows the dangers of spirits. She's smart enough to know that all denizens of the Fade are dangerous. But she was told by Keeper Marethari years ago that the spirit was trapped in a prison and would do no harm to anyone. I'm not saying this means she should've gone there alone. I have never once uttered those words. She is still acting cautious because it's better than going in guns blazing.

I know there is no danger from this particular spirit. She knows it, but would prefer to exercise caution anyway. I have never once said she doesn't know or that I don't know.

Read or reread the Merrill short story and you will see Marethari tell Merrill the spirit is trapped and poses no threat. Then years later she lets the spirit possess her by setting it free.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 29 avril 2011 - 03:11 .

[Joy Divison]

Maria Caliban wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

this is of course where people assume the demon, who had been trapped for centuries beyond counting, could use the Eluvian to escape.

People get the notion that the demon could possess Merrill because Merrill tells you the demon might posses her.

That's why she asks you to possibly kill her!

Hoorayforicecream is not talking about the eluvian being dangerous. She's not talking about the demon hypothetically stepping out of the eluvian. She's talking about the danger that everyone in the game talks about!

What Merrill does is dangerous to herself. You've agreed with this for pages now. Don't suddenly act like you have no idea what she's referring to.

So if (s)he is talking about dangers and flaws about Merrill that Merrill supporters already acknowledge, why make them?  Reconstructing an ancient artifact or discovering some legendary object or the like and the accompanying dangers is pretty standard fare for fantasy, equating the project to a garbage disposal is bringing in a level pragmatism that seems out of place for fantasy games.

In Origins, your Warden is told to find this missing crazy Paragon who went looking for an artifact nobody but hordes of Darkspawn had seen in centuries.  If we adopted the lottery ticket level of practicality, the Warden should have told Behlen and Harrowmont, "We'll get by without the dwarves.  If you ever become King, let me know."

Or searching for a legendary urn of Sacred Ashes that can cure any illness?  Let Eamon die; it's not like he did or said anything useful at the Landsmeet anyway.

And Morrigan's whole plan for Old God Baby was pretty much what Merrill is trying to do; rebuild a functioning eluvian.

That's what fantasy characters do.  They stake their entire life plans and often the worlds they are tasked to save on idiotic ventures frought with dangers that have virtually zero chance of success.  And because they stick their hands in the proverbial garbage disposal so many times without suffering so much as a paper-cut, a consistent suspension of disbelief in necessary.  Merrill attmepting to discover the secrets of an ancient artifact of her people is such a fantasy troupe it is baffling there is even a discussion on its practicality or the inherent dangers of such a project.  Of course it is dangerous and impractical.  Since when has that deterred fantasy characters or somehow prevented them from succeeding - hell if you are the protagonist, the latter is almost guaranteed.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 29 avril 2011 - 03:13 .

[Priisus]

I came home from work and found this thread went spiral...

Joy Divison wrote...

@ Priisus:

In just about all my responses on Merrill, I have admitted she has flaws and ventures on a highly dangerous path.  I think most of other other pro-Merrill posters also do the same.  Why is it that you have to ask if we think she is without flaws?  I do think she does not have some of the flaws leveled against her - the OP either does not now what narcissim means or has not objectively analysed Merrill's character - that is not that same as implying she is somehow flawless.

The feeling that I get is that people are really quick to defend Merrill. Everybody seems to think that she is not on a self-destructive path. Slashing your own wrist  equates self-destructive to me. Yes DA is a fantasy game, and you can argue that blood mages can probably heal themselves after slashing their wrist. But then again, we look at how healing magic works in DA. Merrill can't use healing magic - lore wise as she asked Anders to heal Pol when he was killed by the Varterral which implies she can't.

Also, the thing that we all have to know is that blood magic uses blood/life force to empower it, be it the caster's own or others. If you remember the Alienage quest in Origins, the magister offer to give you more power by using the remaining slaves' life force and in the attempt they die because their life forces are used to empower the blood magic. Everybody comes up with many reasons that it's ok for Merrill to slash her own wrist or allowing herself to be possessed. Everybody in the game except Merrill herself frown upon that, so are you calling everybody wrong instead? You acknowledged that what she is doing is dangerous but agreeing with everything she did = she had done absolutely nothing wrong in the entire game - that gives me the impression that she is flawless.

In your second point, you are taking it as canon that Merrill would have been possessed.  It is a completely valid speculation that this is how events would have unfolded and perhaps the most likely, but it is just that, speculation, and the con-Merrill crowd fails to recognize the distiction between their opinion and fact.

When you enter Sundermount and have Aveline in the party, Merrill would mention to Aveline to take care of everybody else in case something happened to her. Also, Merrill herself knew that it is a highly probable scenario that she get possessed, that's why she wants Hawke, abomination killer extraordinaire to be there. I'm suggesting it as a most likely scenario since that's what happen to Marethari. Yes we won't know what happen if Marethari hadn't interfered, maybe Merrill will get possessed, maybe she won't. How would you know she won't get possessed just because it didn't happen, your point of view is also a speculation. Everybody here are riding on opinions and not just the con-Merrill crowd. Unless you can prove that there is zero chance she will get possessed, then your basis is also a speculation, an opinion.

In your third point, you make it clear that you trust Marethari's opinion more than Merrill's on the eluvian which Merrill without question is the greater authority.  I think a very strong case can be made that we do know it has been cleansed of its corruption and I don;t need Merrill's word - it has been sitting in her home for years and it has in all the time never tempted anyone (Merrill, Hawke's companions, Merrill's neighbors who are literally 5 feet away from it separated by a flimsy hovel wall, etc) from touching it as it did Tamlen, and  been handled and worked on by someone who has not contacted the darkspawn taint.  To think this eluvian is dangerous, you must disregard this compelling evidence in favor of Marethari's speculation which is based in large part on fear.  Similarly a strong case can be made that Marethari is doing more than "out of fear that she may bring back the corruption or worse."  Every single Dalish elf in that clan attacks you with none of them even wondering if it was a good idea or even the right thing to do.  You are asking us to blame the individual clan member, but all of them acted the same way.  Pol's reaction is clearly not the reaction of someone who fears Merrill "may bring back the corruption or worse."  You say you don't get the hate on Marethari or the clan for their attack on Merrill.  Compare/contrast Marethari's "solution" to Merrill's during's Merrill's final quest.

How is she the greater authority? Because she studied about the Eluvian more than Marethari? I explained that she probably know about the working of the Eluvian more than the Keeper because she studied it extensively. But this Eluvian had been corrupted once, we only have her word that it's cleansed. I'm no Eluvian expert and maybe she is but she is blinded by the goal of trying to get it to work that there is a chance that she ignored that it may be dangerous. She picked up the corrupted shard before she knew how to cleanse it and even meeting the demon. 

Also, if you think the reason for the mirror not being dangerous is because the mirror is cleansed (which we don't know to what degree) and that it had been sitting in Kirkwall for years without doing anything... well it's because it's BROKEN. Yes it's a speculation but you can't dismiss the notion that the Eluvian is not dangerous anymore because it's cleansed, maybe it's not doing anything because it can't since it's broken. Yes my point is a speculation but your view that the mirror is perfectly safe is also a speculation.

Marethari: Did not move her clan away from a highly dangerous situation, did not bother telling any of them she had to undertake a potentially lethal journey, willingly allowed herself, a powerful mage, to be possessed and thus freeing a demon bound for thousands of years.  Unwise, reckless, and unkeeperlike because she abandoned her responsiblity to the whole clan.

She never plan to take a potentially lethal journey. That happened because Merrill suddenly decided that it's time to talk to the demon again. Yes it's her fault for keeping the whole clan at Sundermount, it is unkeeperlike for her to put her whole clan at risk. But what is her biggest reason for staying at Sundermount? She is still hoping for a small chance for Merrill to change her mind. Marethari is blinded by love, it's a very maternal instinct. The clan said it too "She loves her First more than the clan". Yes Marethari's decision is not wise, especiall for someone like her who held great responsibility but it's really cruel to call her stupid when one is blinded by love. It's not something you wilingly chose and be happy about it.

Merrill: Recognized the real danger to herself and others, took precautions that if powerful demon possessed her, she would have been the only victim.  Merrill showed more responsibility to her clan than Marethari in this instance and doesn't seem nearly as naive as the Marethari.

Merrill does not think she can get what she wants from a demon without any negative confidence.  She thinks there is a real possibility that she may die.  That sounds like a negative consequence to me.  People love throwing the word naive on her, but it is all too often done in examples in which Merrill is not being naive.

Marethari is not naive, she is like I said blinded by love. Her love for Merrill overthrows her own logic, her own feeling of responsibility to the clan. Merrill is wiling to take the whole responsibility to her own hand because this whole going to talk to demon thing is her own choice. Yes she is not naive to think that trying to talk to the demon will not have any negative consequences, it is one fact she is well aware of, knowing that all spirits are dangerous. She chose to talk to the demon not because she know it will lead to her death but because she still thinks that it may help her to fix the mirror. However, she is naive to think that she will be the only one to deal with the consequence(s) if something happened. There is a high chance that Marethari will interfere or that Hawke may get killed or the demon may be unleashed to the world or the demon may jump to another realm and plan who knows what. So why do it in the first place.

The "Night Terrors" quest I feel is highly problematic because the plot railroads all of your companions to betray Hawke, who just happens to be the only human able to resist temptation.  This reaks of lazy writing and a contrived means to show how awesome Hawke is.

No. Hawke can fall to temptation too. Topor's deal? A lot of players chose to take it, that constitutes as chosing a demon's offer.

It may perfectly be correct that Merrill is "chasing after a lottery ticket" whose time and effort would be better spent on other endeavours.  But science and society needs Merrills to progress otherwise we love in a stultifying conservatism where unorthodox thinking and scientifc pursuits are deemed "dangerous."

Well, like I said I'm all for supporting her to study long lost elven history especially since it is all but lost. I think it's a very noble idea. The thing is if the ruins of Troy is filled with land mines and they can't be detonated safely, will you wilingly ask archeologists to study the site no matter the cost? They may choose to do it wilingly, sacrificing themselves so everybody else can learn about history. But there are a lot of friends who want them not to do it even if it's their own choice. I feel that this is my situation with Merrill, I don't want her to hurt herself when I know that I can fully prevent it. Do you think it's such a wrong thing to wish that of a friend?

P.S: I hope I don't sound off as rude, it's hard to argue and come out sounding positive. I mentioned before and again that I respect everybody's views. This thread is a discussion and not an attack in any way to other posters and Merrrill.

Modifié par Priisus, 29 avril 2011 - 03:16 .

[hoorayforicecream]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

*sigh...*

Yes I've said she knows the dangers of spirits. She's smart enough to know that all denizens of the Fade are dangerous. But she was told by Keeper Marethari years ago that the spirit was trapped in a prison and would do no harm to anyone. I'm not saying this means she should've gone there alone. I have never once uttered those words. She is still acting cautious because it's better than going in guns blazing.

I know there is no danger from this particular spirit. She knows it, but would prefer to exercise caution anyway. I have never once said she doesn't know or that I don't know.

On the steps of Sundermount:

Isabela: Are you sure you want to do this, Kitten?
Merrill: Not even a tiny bit.

Anders: I don't know why I'm bothering with this, but you do realize it is crazy, right?
Merrill: Believe me I noticed, if I had any other choices, I'd take them.

Yep, she's the picture of confidence.

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 29 avril 2011 - 03:22 .

[TEWR]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

*sigh...*

Yes I've said she knows the dangers of spirits. She's smart enough to know that all denizens of the Fade are dangerous. But she was told by Keeper Marethari years ago that the spirit was trapped in a prison and would do no harm to anyone. I'm not saying this means she should've gone there alone. I have never once uttered those words. She is still acting cautious because it's better than going in guns blazing.

I know there is no danger from this particular spirit. She knows it, but would prefer to exercise caution anyway. I have never once said she doesn't know or that I don't know.

On the steps of Sundermount:

Isabela: Are you sure you want to do this, Kitten?
Merrill: Not even a tiny bit.

Anders: I don't know why I'm bothering with this, but you do realize it is crazy, right?

Merrill: Believe me I noticed, if I had any other choices, I'd take them.


Yep, she's the picture of confidence.

*rolls eyes*

[sarcasm]because I definitely called Merrill confident in that post
[/sarcasm]

[bleetman]

I took Marethari's original dismissal - and I'm assuming this is from the pre-release short story, so do correct me if that's incorrect - to mean it posed no danger whilst still bound to the statue, unable to free itself. It wasn't going to sprout legs and assault the camp. That doesn't preclude the possibility of it being freed. But anyway.

I'll admit to being slightly curious how Marethari deducing that the spirit was trapped and no danger in its current state is far more reliable than her deducing it was manipulating Merrill to escape later on. I would've thought her second conclusion carried more weight, given that she's had years to come to it rather than quickly deciding.

[hoorayforicecream]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

*rolls eyes*

[sarcasm]because I definitely called Merrill confident in that post
[/sarcasm]

When the character you say is in no danger is agreeing the entire thing is crazy and a last resort and saying she isn't even the tiniest bit sure about doing it, it really doesn't inspire confidence in anyone involved. Just sayin'.

[LobselVith8]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

*sigh...*

Yes I've said she knows the dangers of spirits. She's smart enough to know that all denizens of the Fade are dangerous. But she was told by Keeper Marethari years ago that the spirit was trapped in a prison and would do no harm to anyone. I'm not saying this means she should've gone there alone. I have never once uttered those words. She is still acting cautious because it's better than going in guns blazing.

I know there is no danger from this particular spirit. She knows it, but would prefer to exercise caution anyway. I have never once said she doesn't know or that I don't know.

On the steps of Sundermount:

Isabela: Are you sure you want to do this, Kitten?
Merrill: Not even a tiny bit.

Anders: I don't know why I'm bothering with this, but you do realize it is crazy, right?
Merrill: Believe me I noticed, if I had any other choices, I'd take them.

Yep, she's the picture of confidence.

Seems more like the Ethereal Writer Redux is addressing that Merrill is being cautious about the encounter with the trapped demon. Despite her hesitation in a task that could mean her life, Merrill is going through with meeting Audacity in Sundermount because of the potential benefit her people can gain if she is successful in restoring the Eluvian.

[TEWR]

I will now post a small portion of the Merrill short story Mary Kirby wrote. Maybe that will clear up some things.

I am One Who is Trapped. Help me.
"Your name!" I have never seen the Keeper this angry. Not even when Tamlen disappeared.
Three seems to be the magic number. Audacity. The voice is like a winter wind, bitter and ragged.
"A demon." The Keeper spits the word as if it tastes foul. She nods at me, "Bound to the statue. It will not threaten the camp." She turns to leave, satisfied.

[TEWR]

LobselVith8 wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

*sigh...*

Yes I've said she knows the dangers of spirits. She's smart enough to know that all denizens of the Fade are dangerous. But she was told by Keeper Marethari years ago that the spirit was trapped in a prison and would do no harm to anyone. I'm not saying this means she should've gone there alone. I have never once uttered those words. She is still acting cautious because it's better than going in guns blazing.

I know there is no danger from this particular spirit. She knows it, but would prefer to exercise caution anyway. I have never once said she doesn't know or that I don't know.

On the steps of Sundermount:

Isabela: Are you sure you want to do this, Kitten?
Merrill: Not even a tiny bit.

Anders: I don't know why I'm bothering with this, but you do realize it is crazy, right?
Merrill: Believe me I noticed, if I had any other choices, I'd take them.

Yep, she's the picture of confidence.

Seems more like the Ethereal Writer Redux is addressing that Merrill is being cautious about the encounter with the trapped demon. Despite her hesitation in a task that could mean her life, Merrill is going through with meeting Audacity in Sundermount because of the potential benefit her people can gain if she is successful in restoring the Eluvian.

pretty much Lob, if I may call you Lob.


I must not be speaking clearly on here today. I thought I was always clear.... well, save for when I'm typing stuff in the early morning. Then things aren't so clear, even to me.

bleetman wrote...

I took Marethari's original dismissal - and I'm assuming this is from the pre-release short story, so do correct me if that's incorrect - to mean it posed no danger whilst still bound to the statue, unable to free itself. It wasn't going to sprout legs and assault the camp. That doesn't preclude the possibility of it being freed. But anyway.

I'll admit to being slightly curious how Marethari deducing that the spirit was trapped and no danger in its current state is far more reliable than her deducing it was manipulating Merrill to escape later on. I would've thought her second conclusion carried more weight, given that she's had years to come to it rather than quickly deciding.

Because the spirit had been trapped for centuries beyond centuries in an area where the Veil was thin and there were numerous mages in the vicinity. Hell, even some apostates ventured to Sundermount. If it didn't manipulate a mage then into doing something, anything, that could've allowed it to possess said mage, then it was trapped and couldn't free itself. And last I checked, spirits weren't picky about which mage they possess. They just want to cross over and do anything they want to.

And I've said numerous times before that Blood Magic + Eluvian = Fancy telephone for Thedas. The Tevinter Magisters, mages who are incredibly experienced with Blood Magic, did this and that's all they got. It doesn't make it a portal for any spirit to use.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 29 avril 2011 - 03:48 .

[LobselVith8]

Feel free to call me Lob. I still owe you a new labtop or gatorade, after all!

Priisus wrote...

The feeling that I get is that people are really quick to defend Merrill. Everybody seems to think that she is not on a self-destructive path. Slashing your own wrist  equates self-destructive to me. Yes DA is a fantasy game, and you can argue that blood mages can probably heal themselves after slashing their wrist. But then again, we look at how healing magic works in DA. Merrill can't use healing magic - lore wise as she asked Anders to heal Pol when he was killed by the Varterral which implies she can't.

Merrill is a blood mage, and blood mages use blood instead of mana to power their spells. Blood magic is more powerful than standard magic, which is why she turned to this method to cleanse the shard since she didn't have a sufficient amount of lyrium to accomplish the task. And Merrill can't heal Pol because she's not a Spirit Healer, which Anders is.

Priisus wrote...

Also, the thing that we all have to know is that blood magic uses blood/life force to empower it, be it the caster's own or others. If you remember the Alienage quest in Origins, the magister offer to give you more power by using the remaining slaves' life force and in the attempt they die because their life forces are used to empower the blood magic. Everybody comes up with many reasons that it's ok for Merrill to slash her own wrist or allowing herself to be possessed. Everybody in the game except Merrill herself frown upon that, so are you calling everybody wrong instead? You acknowledged that what she is doing is dangerous but agreeing with everything she did = she had done absolutely nothing wrong in the entire game - that gives me the impression that she is flawless.

Although you pointed out that the Magister Caladrius uses blood magic, we also know that Grey Warden mages have used blood magic, and even The Warden can address that blood magic isn't prohibited by the order. Merrill uses it because she has no other means of cleansing the shard, and she never abuses the abilities like Huon does. Merrill consistently uses her powers to help Hawke for several years in and out of Kirkwall, whether she agrees with him or not.

Priisus wrote...

When you enter Sundermount and have Aveline in the party, Merrill would mention to Aveline to take care of everybody else in case something happened to her. Also, Merrill herself knew that it is a highly probable scenario that she get possessed, that's why she wants Hawke, abomination killer extraordinaire to be there. I'm suggesting it as a most likely scenario since that's what happen to Marethari. Yes we won't know what happen if Marethari hadn't interfered, maybe Merrill will get possessed, maybe she won't. How would you know she won't get possessed just because it didn't happen, your point of view is also a speculation. Everybody here are riding on opinions and not just the con-Merrill crowd. Unless you can prove that there is zero chance she will get possessed, then your basis is also a speculation, an opinion.

Merrill is preparing for the worst scenerio, and she tasks Hawke with killing her if she becomes an abomination. There's always a risk when dealing with a demon, and although I don't think anyone can say for certain what kind of risks would be involved with a trapped demon who is in the real world but inside a totem, Merrill is erring on the side of caution. It shows that Merrill isn't naive about the situation.

Priisus wrote...

How is she the greater authority? Because she studied about the Eluvian more than Marethari? I explained that she probably know about the working of the Eluvian more than the Keeper because she studied it extensively. But this Eluvian had been corrupted once, we only have her word that it's cleansed. I'm no Eluvian expert and maybe she is but she is blinded by the goal of trying to get it to work that there is a chance that she ignored that it may be dangerous. She picked up the corrupted shard before she knew how to cleanse it and even meeting the demon. 

Merrill wouldn't have to need to physically touch the shard to take a piece, since The Warden, Ariane, and Finn (with Dog!) grab one of the pieces of the corrupted Eluvian (and the shards are addressed as corrupt in Witch Hunt). Since we see Merrill isn't a ghoul over the course of seven years of touching the shard and incorporating it into her Merrill-made Eluvian, I don't see why the shard would still be corrupt if she doesn't have darkspawn disease.

Priisus wrote...

Also, if you think the reason for the mirror not being dangerous is because the mirror is cleansed (which we don't know to what degree) and that it had been sitting in Kirkwall for years without doing anything... well it's because it's BROKEN. Yes it's a speculation but you can't dismiss the notion that the Eluvian is not dangerous anymore because it's cleansed, maybe it's not doing anything because it can't since it's broken. Yes my point is a speculation but your view that the mirror is perfectly safe is also a speculation.

Again, Witch Hunt addressed the shards as corrupt even though the were broken pieces of the Eluvian. Even the elves we encountered in the Elven Ruins had the darkspawn taint.

Priisus wrote...

She never plan to take a potentially lethal journey. That happened because Merrill suddenly decided that it's time to talk to the demon again. Yes it's her fault for keeping the whole clan at Sundermount, it is unkeeperlike for her to put her whole clan at risk. But what is her biggest reason for staying at Sundermount? She is still hoping for a small chance for Merrill to change her mind. Marethari is blinded by love, it's a very maternal instinct. The clan said it too "She loves her First more than the clan". Yes Marethari's decision is not wise, especiall for someone like her who held great responsibility but it's really cruel to call her stupid when one is blinded by love. It's not something you wilingly chose and be happy about it.

I'd agree that Marethari loves Merrill.

Priisus wrote...

Marethari is not naive, she is like I said blinded by love. Her love for Merrill overthrows her own logic, her own feeling of responsibility to the clan. Merrill is wiling to take the whole responsibility to her own hand because this whole going to talk to demon thing is her own choice. Yes she is not naive to think that trying to talk to the demon will not have any negative consequences, it is one fact she is well aware of, knowing that all spirits are dangerous. She chose to talk to the demon not because she know it will lead to her death but because she still thinks that it may help her to fix the mirror. However, she is naive to think that she will be the only one to deal with the consequence(s) if something happened. There is a high chance that Marethari will interfere or that Hawke may get killed or the demon may be unleashed to the world or the demon may jump to another realm and plan who knows what. So why do it in the first place.

Marethari is naive not to consider that her suspicions about the Eluvian could be exactly what Audacity has been planning all along. And Merrill couldn't have forseen that Marethari would forsake her entire clan and endanger them by becoming an abomination and telling no one until Hawke and Merrill arrived.

Priisus wrote...

No. Hawke can fall to temptation too. Topor's deal? A lot of players chose to take it, that constitutes as chosing a demon's offer.

No, the protagonist can choose to agree to Topor's deal, while everyone else (but Anders) will attempt to murder Hawke in cold blood because of a few words spoken by the demon. It's silly, given what we've seen in Origins and Awakening.

Priisus wrote...

Well, like I said I'm all for supporting her to study long lost elven history especially since it is all but lost. I think it's a very noble idea. The thing is if the ruins of Troy is filled with land mines and they can't be detonated safely, will you wilingly ask archeologists to study the site no matter the cost?

Merrill knows there are risks involved, and I can see why some wouldn't want her to take those risks no matter the benefits that could be repeated from such an excursion, but I suppose the difference is that someone can believe in Merrill's ability to accomplish this task. The Warden asks time and again of his companions to put their lives on the line and risk it all for feats that some may see as unnecessary risks - Sten addresses this at Haven - but he trusted me with his life, and called me Kadan. Why shouldn't I do the same for Merrill in Hawke's shoes?

Priisus wrote...

They may choose to do it wilingly, sacrificing themselves so everybody else can learn about history. But there are a lot of friends who want them not to do it even if it's their own choice. I feel that this is my situation with Merrill, I don't want her to hurt herself when I know that I can fully prevent it. Do you think it's such a wrong thing to wish that of a friend?

No more than those who have faith in Merrill and believe that she's capable of accomplishing this task and giving her people something that can unexpected and transcendent changes for generations to come.

[TEWR]

to post another off topic comment, Dog better have gone through the Eluvian with my Warden(s)!

I just finished up Witch Hunt now for my Mahariel playthrough.

[Joy Divison]

@ Priisus

What I am getting from your post is that since you believe Merrill to be on a self destructive course, you feel some obligation to stop her from doing so.  This is undoubtedly why you think it is cruel to call Marethari "stupid" (which I never did btw; I said unwise, reckless, and unkeeperlike).  There is nothing wrong with that belief and it is a commendable quality, but I would ask you to consider where exactly the line is drawn when you or society must intervene to prevent an intelligent adult from self destructive behavior and, perhaps more importantly, who gets to decide what exactly constitutes "self-destructive" behavior?

You also feel you "can fully prevent" Merrill from embarking on her desired course, but I strongly disagree.  If Marethari could not, if her clan could not, what makes you think shem Hawke can?

I also think some of your feelings are creating leaps in my logic that aren't there.  You say:

"You acknowledged that what she is
doing is dangerous but agreeing with everything she did = she had done
absolutely nothing wrong in the entire game - that gives me the
impression that she is flawless."

Agreeing with everything she did?  I certainly never said that.  Just because I understand one's perspective does not mean I justify or agree with it.  And just because I "agree" - a term I am uncomfortable with, sympathetic to Merrill's plight is more accurate - does not = she did nothing wrong or is somehow flawless.  My Hawke "agrees" to accompany Merrill up the mountain bc/ she will not be dissuaded from doing so, not bc/ my Hawke thinks it is the right thing for Merrill to do.  And I can certainly come up with a laundry list of flaws for Merrill: obsessive, self-destructive, overly confident in her willpower, overly concerned about the past at the expense of the present, prejudiced, et al.

"How would you know she won't get possessed just because it didn't happen, your point of view is also a speculation."

I didn't say she won't get possessed.  In fact, I said the same thing as you: "[possession] is...perhaps the most likely."  I don't see people arguing on behalf of Merrill claiming she would have fought off the demon; I really don't think that was said once in this thread.  What we do point out is 1) the contrast between Merrill who takes precautions against this very real possibility to limit the damage and Marethari who willingly allows it to happen and thereby magnifying the damage 2) Merrill's critics often take it as a given she would have been possessed and treat it as a fact.  But it is not fact.  Personally if Merrill would have been forced into contest of wills with the demon, I'd place my money on the demon but would give Merrill a shot bc/ she at least recognizes the dangers whereas Anders and Uldred - powerful mages - did not, which to me would be a prerequisite for success in dealing with demons.


It is possible you are correct the mirror appears cleansed simply because it is broken, but I believe the Witch Hunt campaign showed that even a tainted "broken" eluvian would still pass the taint.

"There is a high chance that Marethari will interfere or that Hawke may
get killed or the demon may be unleashed to the world or the demon may
jump to another realm and plan who knows what. So why do it in the first
place."

Expecting to know that Marethari would interfere, especially how she did, is highly debatable.  Hawke & Co. have killed more abominations and demons than the entire Templar population in Thedas so I'm not going to buy there is a "high chance" Hawke may get killed.  I am no expert in how exactly the lore in DA works for demons breaking imprisonment and jumping to another realm, so I am not going to comment, though I was under the impression Merrill would have been the vessel (something Marethari also thinks).  I don't "agree" with  the course of action Merrill embarked on, but I am impressed at her congizance of the dangers, her acknowledgement that she might lose, and the precautions she took.  Can we say anything like this about any other mage in Dragon Age?  All I see are the Anderses, the Uldreds, the Torohnes, the Avernuses, and those codex entires in the Orgins Tower quest; I found the distiction between their blatent carelessness & Merrill's caution fascinating.  Doesn't mean I think she was wise.

No. Hawke can fall to temptation too. Topor's deal? A lot of players
chose to take it, that constitutes as chosing a demon's offer.

Yes.  That's why "Night Terrors" is problematic.  Hawke CAN choose to accept Torpor's deal whereas it railroads all of your non abomination companions to accept demonic offers and betray him.

PS - I don't think you are rude at all.  In fact, you have been quite civil and clear in expressing your view.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 29 avril 2011 - 05:25 .

[dragonflight288]

Okay. This whole debate is becoming very repetitive. Everyone is repeating their arguments. The Merrill haters are saying she is either stupid and naive, guaranteed to be possessed, and hold her responsible for everything that has gone wrong with the Dalish by Kirkwall. (Individual Merrill haters may not hold true to all those tenents, but each of them is out there)

Merrill lovers (like myself) keep arguing that Merrill is far more cautious and wise than Merethari. There is no way Merethari could know more about eluvians than Merrill by act 3. We show her intelligence in facing demons and spirits.

So let's make a new challenge from here on out. If you hate/like Merrill, let's try a different argument. Let's go into how she gets along with other members of the party. Or suggestions she makes during quests (like +5 friendship if we agree to hear out Torpor in the fade). Let's leave her personal quest and the mirror behind for a bit. Until we can come up with new arguments to debate without repeating ourselves.

[Priisus]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Feel free to call me Lob. I still owe you a new labtop or gatorade, after all!

Eh no, you owe Ethereal Writer a new gatorade, not me Feel free to give me one though

Merrill is a blood mage, and blood mages use blood instead of mana to power their spells. Blood magic is more powerful than standard magic, which is why she turned to this method to cleanse the shard since she didn't have a sufficient amount of lyrium to accomplish the task. And Merrill can't heal Pol because she's not a Spirit Healer, which Anders is.

Although you pointed out that the Magister Caladrius uses blood magic, we also know that Grey Warden mages have used blood magic, and even The Warden can address that blood magic isn't prohibited by the order. Merrill uses it because she has no other means of cleansing the shard, and she never abuses the abilities like Huon does. Merrill consistently uses her powers to help Hawke for several years in and out of Kirkwall, whether she agrees with him or not.

Read my first post, I was arguing pretty heavily that blood magic isn't necessarily an evil form of magic. And never did I ever say that Merrill is a bad blood mage, the only thing she ever uses blood magic (lore-wise) for is to try and cleanse the Eluvian. And let's try to not bring gameplay discussion to lore, it's quite a barb... My point is that to use blood magic, the mage needs to use a form of life force and in Merrill's case - her own. I get the "you're-paying-something-with-your-life" kind of feeling with blood magic, I mean damn it, this is a life force we're talking about. It's a serious matter. In the matter of healing, let's say Anders is a blood mage (please don't give me Anders can be a blood mage in Awakening argument. Once again, I beg people to not bring gameplay wise to lore discussion), he slits his wrist to do blood magic, it probably isn't as destructive to him as he can heal himself compared to Merrill who can't heal herself. Maybe blood magic doesn't hurt, mages seem to slit their wrists and be fine the next second. I'm not sure, it wasn't really explained in the game but to me sliting your wrist = self destructive especially if you can't heal yourself, that's my 2 cents on it.

I did say in my first post that to consider blood magic evil is to analyze on who is using it to do what. The Baroness using blood magic to syphon the life out of young girls in Blackmarsh to maintain her youth. The Grey Wardens have a bigger issues, whenever they need to achieve the means to an end, it usually involve the safety of all Thedas. They know it's highly dangerous due to the use of life force, another reason why it isn't practiced widely. As for Merrill, I'm not disputing that the Eluvian (Merrill's) may indeed gives information on the lost days of the Elvhen OR it may bring nothing OR it may be used by the demon to go to another realm. We don't know and anything is up for debate. People likes to point out that the con-Eluvian thinks that it may bring back the corruption is just a speculation but so does the pro-Eluvian who said that the mirror will bring back the lost history of the Elvhen. Everything is a speculation at this point so we can't pinpoint and say the other party is wrong. As for my POV, I'm just trying to be on the side of cautious which is to say to expect the worst. And it's a fact that particular Eluvian at one point in time contained the Taint. It may be cleansed or it may not, it's like I had a broken oven that my brother (who is not a technician) repaired, he said it's fine but do I really want to test it out and plug it into an electric socket to see if it works? The oven may work properly or it may burn my whole house down. The fact that Merrill requires the demon's help to fix the Eluvian is saying that she isn't sure how to fix it in the first place. She thinks it may be fixed/cleansed but she is not really an expert at fixing Eluvians in the first place. So it's still riding a lot on maybes.

Merrill is preparing for the worst scenerio, and she tasks Hawke with killing her if she becomes an abomination. There's always a risk when dealing with a demon, and although I don't think anyone can say for certain what kind of risks would be involved with a trapped demon who is in the real world but inside a totem, Merrill is erring on the side of caution. It shows that Merrill isn't naive about the situation.

I'm not saying that she is naive to err on the side of caution, in fact she should be doing that, demons are dangerous issues. I'm saying she is naive to think that if **** happens, only she will be in danger. When starting the quest, there's an option to talk to Marethari about Merrill's plan, immediately I know the Keeper is going to interfere no matter what, whether you talk to her or not. Which is true since I did not talk to the Keeper and when we went to the cave, she had already sealed the demon inside of her. Or if Hawke fails to kill abomination Merrill and/or the clan fails too, then what will happen? Once again, I'm not suggesting Merrill to be possessed as canon but it is a very highly probable scenario since she said it herself. So if things didn't go according to plan and let's say Hawke loses to the demon/Merrill abomination... then what?

Merrill wouldn't have to need to physically touch the shard to take a piece, since The Warden, Ariane, and Finn (with Dog!) grab one of the pieces of the corrupted Eluvian (and the shards are addressed as corrupt in Witch Hunt). Since we see Merrill isn't a ghoul over the course of seven years of touching the shard and incorporating it into her Merrill-made Eluvian, I don't see why the shard would still be corrupt if she doesn't have darkspawn disease.

The fact that the shard is still corrupted in Witch Hunt is suggesting that it is still contain the taint which means Merill's piece of shard is corrupted. As for Warden, Finn, who is a Tevinter expert is there. Finn knows about the Eluvian more than Arianne does and they have the Light thingy (the stuff you hunt in Cadash Thaig) to help them with it. Merrill may know about the Eluvian as much as Finn if she studied it but the fact remains that she does not know how to cleanse/fix it until she met with the demon. It may be harmless to touch it due to the corruption may have been gone when Duncan smashed it or that the Eluvian is by that point... broken.

I'd agree that Marethari loves Merrill.

Marethari is naive not to consider that her suspicions about the Eluvian could be exactly what Audacity has been planning all along. And Merrill couldn't have forseen that Marethari would forsake her entire clan and endanger them by becoming an abomination and telling no one until Hawke and Merrill arrived.

Well yes of course and that quest seriously is so sad [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/sad.png[/smilie] I was just raising my eyebrows when people go all it's Marethari's fault that whole tragedy has to happen. It is mainly Marethari's fault yes, if she had just left Merrill to do her own business, then she and the clan would have been safe. But I have to reinstate my argument that she is blinded by her love for her First whom she regards as her own daughter and to say she is stupid is just cruel. It's like saying a mother is stupid for loving her child too much. Marethari made a really bad decision in this case but she is not stupid nor naive. I think it's more of a spur of moment thing. She only had little time to outrun Merrill and Hawke, fights the demon in the Fade and when she realized she can't, she trapped it inside her. She didn't plan it to turn that way... but does Merrill absolutely thinks that the Keeper won't interfere with this whole demon business at all? Merrill did not think of the possibility of this scenario before going up Sundermount, she thought that if something goes wrong then she should be the only one to suffer for it (which is her fault). There are a lot of people who cares for her, of course that isn't going to happen. You think a mother will let her child run to a car and get hit when she can still prevents it? The child would think "oh it's my own choice to run into the car, mother shouldn't have interfered." I can tell you that a good mother will never, ever let that happen.

No, the protagonist can choose to agree to Topor's deal, while everyone else (but Anders) will attempt to murder Hawke in cold blood because of a few words spoken by the demon. It's silly, given what we've seen in Origins and Awakening.

Yes the player can choose to take it because Hawke is our character. But let's say Hawke is not our PC but a companion/NPC. And then comes along Topor and said to Hawke "hey dude, you want to be stronger? I can give you that as long as you gave me the dreamer." It's the same situation when the pride/desire demon gives a deal to the companions.

As for Justice (Justice really, Anders is gone in the Fade)... Well he is very narrow minded; he can't think of greys, only black and white... He doesn't like demons and will of course kill you if you chose to deal with them (heck he even tried to kill the Warden for sparing the Architect no matter his approval level). It's not silly, it's just the way Justice is.

Merrill knows there are risks involved, and I can see why some wouldn't want her to take those risks no matter the benefits that could be repeated from such an excursion, but I suppose the difference is that someone can believe in Merrill's ability to accomplish this task. The Warden asks time and again of his companions to put their lives on the line and risk it all for feats that some may see as unnecessary risks - Sten addresses this at Haven - but he trusted me with his life, and called me Kadan. Why shouldn't I do the same for Merrill in Hawke's shoes?

Yes for people who place complete trust in believing that she can complete the task, I can understand in your support that she should take the risks. I do have doubts whether the Eluvian will function as hoped/intended. Like I said so many times before, the Eluvian has so many "maybes"; you can argue that it is fixed and will be as Merrill intended it to be when it's fixed. As for those of us con-Eluvianers (can't think of a better word) think that it may not be fully fixed and will be manipulated by the demon if it's fixed. Both our viewpoints are valid but at the same time they're both still speculations. Once again, I would like to reinstate that Merrill is not stupid, she is very talented but she is not all-knowing either (again the fact that she needs the help of the demon to fix it in the first place proves that she doesn't know everything about the Eluvian).

No more than those who have faith in Merrill and believe that she's capable of accomplishing this task and giving her people something that can unexpected and transcendent changes for generations to come.

Once again, everybody's points are both valid. If you have complete faith in her and think she can do it, go ahead. For those of us who think that she is riding too much on chance, hey it's valid too. Everybody has their own viewpoints, nobody is trying to get at each other's throat just because we don't agree with the other party. This thread after all is a discussion about Merrill as a character, her motives and goals. I established that she is definitely not evil or crazy. The only thing is that people jump really, really quickly to her defense and does not seem to see that she is at fault (not even a little bit? I mean she is not to be blame at all for the tragedy to the clan?)... Maybe it's because you have complete love for the character which I absolutely have no complain about. But to have a complete love for her means that you think she is flawless... which I find impossible as nobody is perfect.

Modifié par Priisus, 29 avril 2011 - 07:07 .

[TEWR]

please don't give me Anders can be a blood mage in Awakening argument. Once again, I beg people to not bring gameplay wise to lore discussion

I realize you don't want it brought up, and I'm still reading your post, but I wanted to say that since you can address this to him it ceases to be a pure gameplay element and becomes a story element.

However, he was a spirit healer first so that's why he's one in DA2.

Other than that little post of mine, I will refrain from using it in a discussion unless somebody else starts using it.

As for Justice (Justice really, Anders is gone in the Fade)... Well he is very narrow minded; he can't think of greys, only black and white... He doesn't like demons and will of course kill you if you chose to deal with them (heck he even tried to kill the Warden for sparing the Architect no matter his approval level). It's not silly, it's just the way Justice is.

Justice won't try to kill you if you persuade him that sparing the Architect is the right course of action.

dragonflight wrote...

Okay. This whole debate is becoming very repetitive. Everyone is repeating their arguments. The Merrill haters are saying she is either stupid and naive, guaranteed to be possessed, and hold her responsible for everything that has gone wrong with the Dalish by Kirkwall. (Individual Merrill haters may not hold true to all those tenents, but each of them is out there)

Merrill lovers (like myself) keep arguing that Merrill is far more cautious and wise than Merethari. There is no way Merethari could know more about eluvians than Merrill by act 3. We show her intelligence in facing demons and spirits.

So let's make a new challenge from here on out. If you hate/like Merrill, let's try a different argument. Let's go into how she gets along with other members of the party. Or suggestions she makes during quests (like +5 friendship if we agree to hear out Torpor in the fade). Let's leave her personal quest and the mirror behind for a bit. Until we can come up with new arguments to debate without repeating ourselves.

I said pretty much the same thing on page 10 haha. I said that we were getting nowhere fast because everyone was just sticking to what they believe and repeating the same old points.

We know Merrill likes hearing out deals with spirits. That doesn't mean she approves of dealing with them, she just likes that you're willing to hear them out and not go "Holy **** a demon! Die!!!".

She doesn't like knowledge being destroyed because it's deemed "evil", like in the Tarohne book quest. And I agree with that. It's like the whole Eluvian scenario. Marethari deems it evil and says it should be destroyed, which Merrill disagrees with strongly. Knowledge is only dangerous to those who abuse what they've learned (Tarohne).

She likes it when Hawke helps out any mage that he/she can, which should be blatantly obvious given that she's a mage.

And I'm assuming she approves of sending Feynriel to the Dalish. I'm not sure, I'm just now starting my 4th Male Hawke playthrough, complete with Mahariel import. And of course I'm going to romance her. If I tried to romance anyone else, I'd go straight to Merrill.

Side note: I hate how the PSN is still down, because now I can't download the item pack. I want to see what Merrill's unique item is.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 29 avril 2011 - 07:00 .

[Priisus]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I realize you don't want it brought up, and I'm still reading your post,
but I wanted to say that since you can address this to him it ceases to
be a pure gameplay element and becomes a story element.
Other than that little post of mine, I will refrain from using it in a discussion unless somebody else starts using it.

That may be because the devs at first weren't planning for him to make a return in DA2, if not they would not have made him a "I hate blood magic and everything it stands for" in DA2.

I will always first and foremost regard him as a Spirit Healer and nothing else lore wise, especially his "occupation" in DA2 - he is running a free clinic.

Justice won't try to kill you if you persuade him that sparing the Architect is the right course of action.

Yeah I know and I always do that if I bring him to Mother's Lair. But without the Coercion skill, he would have kill the Warden no matter his approval level is... just proving the point that he can only see black and white.

Sorry for the long post

[TEWR]

That may be because the devs at first weren't planning for him to make a return in DA2, if not they would not have made him a "I hate blood magic and everything it stands for" in DA2.

I will always first and foremost regard him as a Spirit Healer and nothing else lore wise, especially his "occupation" in DA2 - he is running a free clinic.

yea I agree with that. It would've been nice though that if he was made a blood mage he at least mentions it to Merrill in a banter. something like:

Anders: You know Merrill, I used to be a blood mage.
Merrill: Why did you stop?
Anders: At first I didn't care. But I saw that it wasn't good for me to be one. Even in the Wardens, the Templars came after me. And this was before I became a blood mage. Imagine what they would've done had they found out.
Merrill: I'm sorry.
Anders: Plus Ser Pounce-A-Lot didn't approve.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 29 avril 2011 - 07:06 .

[Priisus]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Anders: Plus Ser Pounce-A-Lot didn't approve.

The last line! Now you owe me a gatorade yourself sir 

[TEWR]

okey dokey, I shall send you one ASAP. And as an added bonus, you shall receive some cookies.

[Priisus]

Joy Divison wrote...

You also feel you "can fully prevent" Merrill from embarking on her
desired course, but I strongly disagree.  If Marethari could not, if her
clan could not, what makes you think shem Hawke can?

In regards to Hawke, yes we can't really prevent Merrill from chasing after her quest. But I think the whole rivalry system is to try and dissuade her out of that path, we can choose not to give her the Arulin'holm to prevent her from completing her mirror. I think what I feel is that as Hawke, I'm trying my best to not let her follow that path (which I find self-destructive even if you think is not). I think this again had been argued to death. You can show support for her by encouraging her to complete the Eluvian (friendship path) or you can dissuade her from trying to follow a path that you think may endanger her (rivalry path). The friendship/rivalry path is misleading. I think in both cases, you are not hating her (well I guess a lot of players do) but it's more in the line of I'm supporting or disagreeing with said companion's views.

Joy Divison wrote...

PS - I don't think you are rude at all.  In fact, you have been quite civil and clear in expressing your view.

Thanks, it's good to know. It's really hard on the internet to know what people think. I hope I don't come off as rude or "haters gonna hate" attitude just because I disagree. But hey I like all the companions, they spill blood with me/Hawke after all. Hate is a word reserved for characters like Petrice

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I said pretty much the same thing on page 10 haha. I said that we were getting nowhere fast because everyone was just sticking to what they believe and repeating the same old points.

We know Merrill likes hearing out deals with spirits. That doesn't mean she approves of dealing with them, she just likes that you're willing to hear them out and not go "Holy **** a demon! Die!!!".

She doesn't like knowledge being destroyed because it's deemed "evil", like in the Tarohne book quest. And I agree with that. It's like the whole Eluvian scenario. Marethari deems it evil and says it should be destroyed, which Merrill disagrees with strongly. Knowledge is only dangerous to those who abuse what they've learned (Tarohne).

She likes it when Hawke helps out any mage that he/she can, which should be blatantly obvious given that she's a mage.

Well, once again I don't associate myself as Merrill-hater, I'm a con-Eluvianer (for a lack of better word ) or in the game's context... Merill's rival... I have since agree to disagree *with her views*... I kinda wish in the future, there's a better way to distinguish the rivalry/friendship system. I'm all for pro-mage but I'm against "Vengeance" and demons, I'm all for against slavery but well I'm a pro mage. Geez Anders, Merrill, Fenris... maybe we should just switch my status with all of you to "It's Complicated"


If I remember correctly, she gives you rivalry points for not listening to Topor at all or friendship points if you accept the deal. I don't know about the approval change if you hear out Topor then rejected it. I personally slapped Topor the first second I saw its shade-face... Trying to give me the power to turn somebody into an abomination... ugh no, even if the candidate is Petrice... which is why I cringed when she agrees (hey friendship points) for Hawke to obtain power if it means handing Fenryiel over to Topor.


Oh Anders... why do people hate you so much in DA2. Well since this is not a thread about Anders, I shall skim through him and his relationship with Merrill (per Dragonflight's suggestion). He is actually not that bad towards her... Merrill-lovers seem to hate him on the premises that he is not that nice to her (which is not true really)

People seem to think of him as stupid... I prefer to call him ala Irving "a reckless scamp". As for him not recognizing that spirits are demons and that demons/spirits are dangerous while Merrill can - I think this is more in line with the Andrastian belief VS the Dalish belief:

Anders: Maybe you don't really understand the difference between
spirits and demons.
Merrill: Did I ask you?
Anders: Spirits were the first children of the Maker, but He turned
his back on them to dote on His mortal creations.
Anders: The ones who resented this became demons, driven to take
everything mortals had and gain back the Maker's favor.
Merrill: Your "Maker" is a story you humans use to explain the world.
Merrill: We have our own stories. I don't need to borrow yours.



Anders: Do Dalish honestly not recognize the difference between
demons and beneficial spirits?
Merrill: We’ve never thought of the Fade as the home of our gods.
Merrill: It is another realm, another people's home. No different or
more foreign than, say, Orzammar.


Well the Andrastian belief makes more sense to me... since I have seen benifical spirits like the first spirit that gave you a weapon during the Warden's Harrowing. Justice is the "righteous ***" in the Awakening group and he is a very unique spirit... he was never evil but like I said before he can't see shades of grays that is pervalent in the mortal world. Anders didn't take account of this but not recognizing this does not equate that he is stupid. Justice after all is pretty nice to everybody who are "righteous".

When they merged, their intention is to bring equality to all mages which I don't find wrong (a real noble goal imo and it is a glaring problem in the present especially in Kirkwall). Looking at Witch Hunt, you can see that Anders is a "naughty student"... doodling on the back of a (maybe ancient) book and escaping while the apprentices are swimming. He was a very carefree person but his reasons for hating the system of the circle is not unreasonable - he was dragged off in chains by templars by his father who hated/feared him when he was a young child. After that all the life he knew are just being a circle mage (who can't love). Then he became a Gray Warden, it is a life outside a circle but still a prison life nonetheless. Old Anders is yes... naive to think that he and the good spirit of Justice will get along fine in one body and that they/he(?) will bring freedom to all mages. But to associate him with Uldred/Tarohne/Avernus is unfair Those three knew exactly what they are doing when dabbling with blood magic/demons and it is for their own selfish goals. You can also argue and said that Anders is a selfish jerk (for complicating the circle mages during the chantry part) but his argument of "I removed the chance of compromise because there is no compromise" is actually a very valid point.... but as I said this is a thread about Merrill not Anders so I shall stop here and not write a ten page essay on this reasoning.

I implore for people who hate Anders on the premise that he is not being nice to Merrill to read their party banters in the DA wiki. They have pretty friendly party banters until Act 3 which is when Anders is all but already losing to Vengeance (at that point he is really almost single-minded, paranoid etc). Before Act 3 though, the only parts where he was being "mean" (I think he is just disagreeing) to Merrill is whenever it is associated with blood magic/demons which to him is wrong (again being a Circle Mage definitely has a great influence over him in this matter because these are what the Circle drilled to the mind of their apprentices). In fact, he wanted to believe that Merrill venture into blood magic was accidental and not because she made dealings with demon.

Last post of the night, I got to work in 7 hours <_<

P.S: Again I hope I'm not sounding as "Haters gonna hate" because I support Anders (whom people viewed as being mean to Merrill)...

[mangiraffe dog000]

I've come to warn you about MAN-GIRAFFE-DOG!! It's the single greatest threat to humanity!! RUN AWAY!!



I'm still more Serial than ever guys.