I have got to say, I am suprised this thread has nearly 11 pages solid of wall-o-text carefully arguing over this, without a single 'i r rite u suk' post.
I was expecting flames 3 posts in.
So, is Merrill evil? Crazy?
Débuté par
loranna238
, avril 25 2011 07:36
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#277
Posté 29 avril 2011 - 10:52
Addai
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Ah, then the wiki on the Dalish elves is wrong. Wouldn't be the first time.wickedgoodreed wrote...
Addai67 wrote...
Their three rules are really the Vir Assan, Vir Bor'Assan and Vir Adahlen- the last of which says "together we are stronger than the one." By pursuing her task against the wishes of her keeper and clan to the point of separating from them, she broke a cardinal rule and her whole clan pays for it to one extent or another.
According to this codex entry, that's not what Vir Adhalen says:
Vir Adahlen: the Way of the Wood
Receive the gifts of the hunt with mindfulness.
Respect the sacrifice of my children
Know that your passing shall nourish them in turn.
That is my Way.
"Together we are stronger than the one" isn't part of the Vir Tanadhal as far as I can tell.
Vir Adahlen ("Way of the Forest") - together we are stronger than the one
#278
Posté 29 avril 2011 - 10:56
Addai
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Though apparently the quote I took that from is wrong, still- the tail doesn't wag the dog. Merrill had a responsibility to her clan, but that was first to their survival. Goes the same for Marethari, and both of them fell down on the job. It was Merrill who couldn't give up on her quest for the eluvian and chose to leave.The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
If they really wanted to be stronger than the one, the clan would've supported her instead of letting fear overrule rational thought.
They made Merrill a pariah just as much as she did.
I find it interesting that Merill mentions at one point that a keeper's job is to remember, but everyone else's job is to follow the Vir Adahlen. That is rather setting herself apart from her clan, as though the rules don't apply to her.
Modifié par Addai67, 29 avril 2011 - 10:56 .
#279
Posté 29 avril 2011 - 11:01
Addai
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In fairness to Merrill, she picked up the shard because she hoped it might help find Tamlen. Naive and foolish, perhaps, but it was not ambition that drove her at first- so she says. The Warden does something similar in trying to find Morrigan.Priisus wrote...
How is she the greater authority? Because she studied about the Eluvian more than Marethari? I explained that she probably know about the working of the Eluvian more than the Keeper because she studied it extensively. But this Eluvian had been corrupted once, we only have her word that it's cleansed. I'm no Eluvian expert and maybe she is but she is blinded by the goal of trying to get it to work that there is a chance that she ignored that it may be dangerous. She picked up the corrupted shard before she knew how to cleanse it and even meeting the demon.
#280
Posté 29 avril 2011 - 01:13
dragonflight288
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I'm going to skim through Merrill's relationships with each of the party members in a hope to show that she isn't as evil as some people think she is. And yes, I'm reading that people like her but just disagree with her, so I hope I'm not coming across as argumentative.
Her relationship with Fenris is pretty blatantly obvious. He hates magic with a passion. He sees only evil, misplaced ambition, and mages using blood magic in it. He outright calls her a monster after Pol's death. He doesn't even try to be compassionate or understanding. In his view, she's a mage, and blood mage to boot, so she cannot be trusted. But when Danarius comes knocking in the Hanged Man for Fenris, Merrill will strongly defend him, and gain a butt load of rivalry points if we sell him to Danarius.
Her relationship with Anders, was well written on page 11. The two of them get along for the most part, except in cases of philosphical differences from their upbringing on magic. This causes them to view the fade and demons differently. I personally think there's more to Merrill's argument than there is to Anders however. I have seen three different sloth demons from origins to DA2. The first one is in the mage origin story. He makes it clear that he would like to devour you, but is just too lazy to make the attempt. The second was the Circle Tower during Uldred's takeover. That one forces the Warden and his/her companions into the fade...including the dwarfs. He then uses illusions to try and make us slothful, dreams we wouldn't, or possibly couldn't, escape from. Then there's Torpor in DA2. He makes a deal with Hawke in the hope of possessing Fenrial. He outright gives a battle plan for dealing with the pride demon and the desire demon. He tells you what to expect and how to counter it. Three sloth demons, each with different methods and personalities. They all just followed slothful standards-so to speak.
Merrill and Isabella is always fun to watch. They have an interesting sisterly relationship, and they do defend each other. By going from Act1-3, they way they interact shows that Isabella is actually helping Merrill to become more knowledgeable and less naive about human society.
Merrill: Why do you always win at cards?
Isabella: Because I cheat kitten.
Isabella is pretty much telling her that if someone has a winning streak that isn't being beaten when luck or chance says they can't be, something is going on.
Merrill and Varic is also fun.
Varic: Daisy, you have to stop going through the dark alleys.
Merrill: Why? Nothing's happened so far.
Varic: Exactly. And that 'nothing' is costing me a fortune.
Varic is looking out for her by keeping the undesirables of society off her back.
Merrill and Aveline, umm I believe there's mutual respect there, but I keep thinking back to the comment Aveline makes about Merrill being stupid that it drives their other banter out of my mind, so I need to think more on them.
Merrill and Sebastian. I think that is the ultimate philsophical debate in-game. He's trying to convert her to the maker, she's pointing out the flaws of the Chantry's arguments. He tries to show her mistakes, she shows the mistakes of the institution in which he's a part of. Very fun to watch because they are both very cordial and nice about it.
Her relationship with Fenris is pretty blatantly obvious. He hates magic with a passion. He sees only evil, misplaced ambition, and mages using blood magic in it. He outright calls her a monster after Pol's death. He doesn't even try to be compassionate or understanding. In his view, she's a mage, and blood mage to boot, so she cannot be trusted. But when Danarius comes knocking in the Hanged Man for Fenris, Merrill will strongly defend him, and gain a butt load of rivalry points if we sell him to Danarius.
Her relationship with Anders, was well written on page 11. The two of them get along for the most part, except in cases of philosphical differences from their upbringing on magic. This causes them to view the fade and demons differently. I personally think there's more to Merrill's argument than there is to Anders however. I have seen three different sloth demons from origins to DA2. The first one is in the mage origin story. He makes it clear that he would like to devour you, but is just too lazy to make the attempt. The second was the Circle Tower during Uldred's takeover. That one forces the Warden and his/her companions into the fade...including the dwarfs. He then uses illusions to try and make us slothful, dreams we wouldn't, or possibly couldn't, escape from. Then there's Torpor in DA2. He makes a deal with Hawke in the hope of possessing Fenrial. He outright gives a battle plan for dealing with the pride demon and the desire demon. He tells you what to expect and how to counter it. Three sloth demons, each with different methods and personalities. They all just followed slothful standards-so to speak.
Merrill and Isabella is always fun to watch. They have an interesting sisterly relationship, and they do defend each other. By going from Act1-3, they way they interact shows that Isabella is actually helping Merrill to become more knowledgeable and less naive about human society.
Merrill: Why do you always win at cards?
Isabella: Because I cheat kitten.
Isabella is pretty much telling her that if someone has a winning streak that isn't being beaten when luck or chance says they can't be, something is going on.
Merrill and Varic is also fun.
Varic: Daisy, you have to stop going through the dark alleys.
Merrill: Why? Nothing's happened so far.
Varic: Exactly. And that 'nothing' is costing me a fortune.
Varic is looking out for her by keeping the undesirables of society off her back.
Merrill and Aveline, umm I believe there's mutual respect there, but I keep thinking back to the comment Aveline makes about Merrill being stupid that it drives their other banter out of my mind, so I need to think more on them.
Merrill and Sebastian. I think that is the ultimate philsophical debate in-game. He's trying to convert her to the maker, she's pointing out the flaws of the Chantry's arguments. He tries to show her mistakes, she shows the mistakes of the institution in which he's a part of. Very fun to watch because they are both very cordial and nice about it.
#281
Posté 29 avril 2011 - 03:05
Joy Divison
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I wouldn't say I hate Anders. I suspect he gets a lot of hate bc/ he blew up a building with explosives.
I find Anders's arrogance and hypocricy toward Merrill's dealings w/ spirits before you complete the Sir Alrik quest annoying. He chastises Merrill for dealing with spirits when he willingly allowed himself to merge with a fade spirit. I understand he does so based on his Andrastian beliefs, but, for me anyway, basing hypocrisy on religious dogma is not exactly an endearing trait.
Is there really a beneficial spirit? I wouldn't call Valor (the first spirit you meet in the mage origins story) beneficial; he will only give you a weapon if you fight him or convince him you are strong in his eyes and does so not out of altruism but because you will engage in single combat which it finds valorous. Justice as an ideal is supposed to be neutral and is all too easily perverted (as we see in DA2). As for the abomination Wynne, without knowing more about the spirit who merged with her - its goals and how it functions in the mortal realm - the jury is still out; it took Anders/Justice years before it became clear what the merging did. But I will say even the most malignant demon would probably bring out a better side in Wynne:P
In general I am not sympathetic to good/bad and black/white worldviews which are how most religions view the world. It is because Merrill says: " Anders... There's no such thing as a good spirit. There never was. All spirits are dangerous. I understood that. I'm sorry that you didn't." that makes her an interesting character. That is perhaps my favorite line in the whole game and the way she says it - without the vindictiveness or the "I told you so" attitude I certainly would have used - adds to her appeal.
I will say after the Sir Alrik quest when Anders recognizes what he now is and tries to steer Merrill away from dealing with demons from a different motivation, I have a newfound respect for him and no longer see him as hypocritical. Though it is unfortunate he loses much of his humor and charm in becoming so consumed for mage justice that he isn't pleasant to be around.
I associated Anders w/ Uldred/Tarohne/Avernus not because he had selfish goals or because he was a jerk - neither in fact are true - but because all of them lacked a cautious approach to spirits and shared an arrogance they all would master the fade on their terms (which I think is a valid comparison). Their motivations for dealing w/ spirits and beliefs why they would succeed are indeed different, but none of them seriously entertained the possibility that they might fail in their dealings w/ spirits. Again Merrill's acknowledgment the possibility of failure is something that impressed me.
Though I'm not sure Anders is Merrill's natural rival; I'm pretty sure Fenris is the companion who is by far the most spiteful and meanest to Merrill.
I find Anders's arrogance and hypocricy toward Merrill's dealings w/ spirits before you complete the Sir Alrik quest annoying. He chastises Merrill for dealing with spirits when he willingly allowed himself to merge with a fade spirit. I understand he does so based on his Andrastian beliefs, but, for me anyway, basing hypocrisy on religious dogma is not exactly an endearing trait.
Is there really a beneficial spirit? I wouldn't call Valor (the first spirit you meet in the mage origins story) beneficial; he will only give you a weapon if you fight him or convince him you are strong in his eyes and does so not out of altruism but because you will engage in single combat which it finds valorous. Justice as an ideal is supposed to be neutral and is all too easily perverted (as we see in DA2). As for the abomination Wynne, without knowing more about the spirit who merged with her - its goals and how it functions in the mortal realm - the jury is still out; it took Anders/Justice years before it became clear what the merging did. But I will say even the most malignant demon would probably bring out a better side in Wynne:P
In general I am not sympathetic to good/bad and black/white worldviews which are how most religions view the world. It is because Merrill says: " Anders... There's no such thing as a good spirit. There never was. All spirits are dangerous. I understood that. I'm sorry that you didn't." that makes her an interesting character. That is perhaps my favorite line in the whole game and the way she says it - without the vindictiveness or the "I told you so" attitude I certainly would have used - adds to her appeal.
I will say after the Sir Alrik quest when Anders recognizes what he now is and tries to steer Merrill away from dealing with demons from a different motivation, I have a newfound respect for him and no longer see him as hypocritical. Though it is unfortunate he loses much of his humor and charm in becoming so consumed for mage justice that he isn't pleasant to be around.
I associated Anders w/ Uldred/Tarohne/Avernus not because he had selfish goals or because he was a jerk - neither in fact are true - but because all of them lacked a cautious approach to spirits and shared an arrogance they all would master the fade on their terms (which I think is a valid comparison). Their motivations for dealing w/ spirits and beliefs why they would succeed are indeed different, but none of them seriously entertained the possibility that they might fail in their dealings w/ spirits. Again Merrill's acknowledgment the possibility of failure is something that impressed me.
Though I'm not sure Anders is Merrill's natural rival; I'm pretty sure Fenris is the companion who is by far the most spiteful and meanest to Merrill.
Modifié par Joy Divison, 29 avril 2011 - 05:55 .
#282
Posté 29 avril 2011 - 03:51
Herr Uhl
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Joy Divison wrote...
I find Anders's arrogance and hypocricy toward Merrill's dealings w/ spirits before you complete the Sir Alrik quest annoying. He chastises Merrill for dealing with spirits when he willingly allowed himself to merge with a fade spirit. I understand he does so based on his Andrastian beliefs, but, for me anyway, basing hypocrisy on religious dogma is not exactly an endearing trait.
He should know then. I doubt that the chantry were the first to have this separation between demons and spirits either, so calling it religious dogma is a bit harsh.
#283
Posté 29 avril 2011 - 04:53
wickedgoodreed
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Priisus...
If I remember correctly, she gives you rivalry points for not
listening to Topor at all or friendship points if you accept the deal. I
don't know about the approval change if you hear out Topor then
rejected it. I personally slapped Topor the first second I saw its
shade-face... Trying to give me the power to turn somebody into an
abomination... ugh no, even if the candidate is Petrice... which is why I
cringed when she agrees (hey friendship points) for Hawke to obtain
power if it means handing Fenryiel over to Topor.
I have to admit her gaining friendship points there confuses (and concerns) me since she actually says, "I don't think we should be doing this" and at other points in the game argues against sacrificing innocents. Going back to the Hunger Demon in the Deep Roads, Merrill doesn't give friendship points for accepting the demon's offer there so it seems inconsistent to me.
I do understand why she gives you rivalry points for not listening to Torpor at all though. If you hear him out rather than reflexively killing him on sight, Torpor actually tells you who you're up against and exactly what you need to know in order to safely rescue Feynriel. Once you're done using him, you can still refuse to deal with Torpor. Hawke was then able to use that knowledge to her benefit by gently easing Feynriel out of the dreams he was trapped in since the demon warned her against breaking the illusion too abruptly. It made the difference between Feynriel learning to be confident in his own ability to resist temptation and master his power as opposed to fearing himself and asking Hawke to kill him.
It's part of the reason why I tend to agree with Merrill about her views on spirits and demons. If you're cautious, you can converse with them and learn something from them without becoming possessed or sacrificing innocent lives in the process. It's not something I'd encourage kids to try themselves at home or anything, but what she's doing is not impracticable or unprecedented (granted my opinion on this is colored by my experiences in DA:O with wardens who made "above board" deals with several spirits and demons over the course of the game).
Addai67 wrote...
Though apparently the quote I took that from is wrong, still- the tail doesn't wag the dog. Merrill had a responsibility to her clan, but that was first to their survival. Goes the same for Marethari, and both of them fell down on the job. It was Merrill who couldn't give up on her quest for the eluvian and chose to leave.The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
If they really wanted to be stronger than the one, the clan would've supported her instead of letting fear overrule rational thought.
They made Merrill a pariah just as much as she did.
I think Merrill is more focused on her responsibility to the People and their long term survival above just her own one clan. They've "lost everything" and are rapidly losing the chance to reclaim that as time goes by. There's no reason for her to think that leaving the clan in the Keeper's hands would endanger their ability to survive.
Addai67 wrote...
I find it interesting that Merill mentions at one point that a keeper's job is to remember, but everyone else's job is to follow the Vir Adahlen. That is rather setting herself apart from her clan, as though the rules don't apply to her.
That's because the Vir Adahlen and the rest of the Vir Tanadahl, "The Ways of the Hunter," come from the Andruil, the Goddess of the Hunt. The lesson seems to be to respect the circle of life and the animals you hunt and don't let them suffer when you kill them. I doubt that she thinks that she's exempt from the rules of the Dalish, but those particular rules are really not as applicable to a Keeper's job as to a hunter's.
#284
Posté 29 avril 2011 - 05:15
LobselVith8
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[quote]Priisus wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Feel free to call me Lob. I still owe you a new labtop or gatorade, after all!
[/quote]
Eh no, you owe Ethereal Writer a new gatorade, not me
Feel free to give me one though 
[/quote]
I directed it to Ethereal Writer since he (which I'm assuming on the sole basis of his dwarven Warden) asked if it was OK to call me Lob.
Free gatorade? I guess I'm going to have to hope to strike it rich in the Deep Roads with the laptops and gatorades I need to hand out.
[quote]Priisus wrote...
Read my first post, I was arguing pretty heavily that blood magic isn't necessarily an evil form of magic. And never did I ever say that Merrill is a bad blood mage, the only thing she ever uses blood magic (lore-wise) for is to try and cleanse the Eluvian. [/quote]
I never claimed you said blood magic was evil, I was merely expanding the reaches for blood magic beyond the scope of the Tevinter slaver Caladrius - an example that you provided.
I also didn't say that you claimed that Merrill was a bad blood mage, I addressed that I don't agree that blood magic is self-destructive, akin to "slitting your wrists," as you stated earlier. You indicated that blood magic had prevented her from saving Pol, but I addressed that Merrill isn't a Spirit Healer - she couldn't try to help Pol in the same way that a Spirit Healer like Anders could.
[quote]Priisus wrote...
And let's try to not bring gameplay discussion to lore, it's quite a barb... [/quote]
When I said Grey Warden mages use blood magic, I was addressing what Duncan said in the Magi Origin: Grey Warden mages have used blood magic against the darkspawn, and this is followed up in the dialogue from The Warden in Warden's Keep, where the protagonist tells Levi Dryden that blood magic isn't prohibited by the order.
[quote]Priisus wrote...
My point is that to use blood magic, the mage needs to use a form of life force and in Merrill's case - her own. I get the "you're-paying-something-with-your-life" kind of feeling with blood magic, I mean damn it, this is a life force we're talking about. It's a serious matter. In the matter of healing, let's say Anders is a blood mage (please don't give me Anders can be a blood mage in Awakening argument. Once again, I beg people to not bring gameplay wise to lore discussion), he slits his wrist to do blood magic, it probably isn't as destructive to him as he can heal himself compared to Merrill who can't heal herself. Maybe blood magic doesn't hurt, mages seem to slit their wrists and be fine the next second. I'm not sure, it wasn't really explained in the game but to me sliting your wrist = self destructive especially if you can't heal yourself, that's my 2 cents on it. [/quote]
You mean conflating game mechanics with lore? I don't believe I did that when I addressed dialogue spoken by the former Warden-Commander of Ferelden and the protagonist of the Magi Origin. Also, you keep stating that it's self-destructive, but blood magic is a powerful means for a mage. It allows them to deal with templars, who are fully capable of nullifying standard magic, and they can accomplish things with blood that they cannot without the sufficient amount of lyrium avaliable (which is why Merrill turned to blood magic to cleanse the shard, rather than get killed by the templars if she asked them for lyrium).
[quote]Priisus wrote...
I did say in my first post that to consider blood magic evil is to analyze on who is using it to do what. The Baroness using blood magic to syphon the life out of young girls in Blackmarsh to maintain her youth. The Grey Wardens have a bigger issues, whenever they need to achieve the means to an end, it usually involve the safety of all Thedas. They know it's highly dangerous due to the use of life force, another reason why it isn't practiced widely. As for Merrill, I'm not disputing that the Eluvian (Merrill's) may indeed gives information on the lost days of the Elvhen OR it may bring nothing OR it may be used by the demon to go to another realm. We don't know and anything is up for debate. [/quote]
This thread certainly wouldn't be as long as it is without the debate and disagreement over Merrill's blood magic and her construction of the Eluvian.
[quote]Priisus wrote...
People likes to point out that the con-Eluvian thinks that it may bring back the corruption is just a speculation but so does the pro-Eluvian who said that the mirror will bring back the lost history of the Elvhen. Everything is a speculation at this point so we can't pinpoint and say the other party is wrong. [/quote]
Except it's commonly addressed that this is merely a possibility. No one pretends that it's a certainty, but we are saying that it's a possible conclusion to Merrill's reconstruction of the Eluvian. It's as much of a risk as the Warden going into the Deep Roads for Paragon Branka or heading to the Frostback Mountains for a myth known to heal the sick. Why shouldn't Hawke allow Merrill the opportunity to help her people when we - as the Warden - asked the same of our companions time and again? Even Hawke asks this of the people he brings with him into the Deep Roads so his family can benefit from the possible wealth of the ancient dwarves.
[quote]Priisus wrote...
As for my POV, I'm just trying to be on the side of cautious which is to say to expect the worst. And it's a fact that particular Eluvian at one point in time contained the Taint. [/quote]
Which is why the elves in the Ruins were corrupted by darkspawn taint in Witch Hunt even long after the Eluvian was shattered. This isn't the case with Merrill, who isn't a ghoul and has been handling the shard he brought with her from Ferelden.
[quote]Priisus wrote...
I'm not saying that she is naive to err on the side of caution, in fact she should be doing that, demons are dangerous issues. I'm saying she is naive to think that if **** happens, only she will be in danger. When starting the quest, there's an option to talk to Marethari about Merrill's plan, immediately I know the Keeper is going to interfere no matter what, whether you talk to her or not. Which is true since I did not talk to the Keeper and when we went to the cave, she had already sealed the demon inside of her. Or if Hawke fails to kill abomination Merrill and/or the clan fails too, then what will happen? Once again, I'm not suggesting Merrill to be possessed as canon but it is a very highly probable scenario since she said it herself. So if things didn't go according to plan and let's say Hawke loses to the demon/Merrill abomination... then what? [/quote]
It's a possibility, not a certainty. We have no idea what risks are entailed in dealing with an imprisoned demon in the real world who was sealed by ancient elven magic. However, Merrill prepared for the worst, and Hawke has a long period of demonstrating to Merrill that he can handle demons and abominations - including one who was said to be the most "powerful" of all Pride Demons.
[quote]Priisus wrote...
The fact that the shard is still corrupted in Witch Hunt is suggesting that it is still contain the taint which means Merill's piece of shard is corrupted. As for Warden, Finn, who is a Tevinter expert is there. Finn knows about the Eluvian more than Arianne does and they have the Light thingy (the stuff you hunt in Cadash Thaig) to help them with it. Merrill may know about the Eluvian as much as Finn if she studied it but the fact remains that she does not know how to cleanse/fix it until she met with the demon. It may be harmless to touch it due to the corruption may have been gone when Duncan smashed it or that the Eluvian is by that point... broken. [/quote]
Merrill isn't a ghoul, while the elves in the Elven Ruins where the broken Eluvian is are tainted by darkspawn corruption.
[quote]Priisus wrote...
Well yes of course and that quest seriously is so sad
I was just raising my eyebrows when people go all it's Marethari's fault that whole tragedy has to happen. [/quote]
People are responsible for their own actions, but I'd agree that Marethari did it because she loved Merrill.
[quote]Priisus wrote...
Yes the player can choose to take it because Hawke is our character. But let's say Hawke is not our PC but a companion/NPC. And then comes along Topor and said to Hawke "hey dude, you want to be stronger? I can give you that as long as you gave me the dreamer." It's the same situation when the pride/desire demon gives a deal to the companions. [/quote]
The fact that everyone attempts to murder Hawke in cold blood because of a few lines of dialogue is absolutely ridiculous. We've seen from Origins and Awakening that the Fade doesn't work that way - people don't become stupid because a demon made an offer. The fact that every companion except the resident abomination will try to kill Hawke because a demon provided a few lines of dialogue, while Hawke is 100% immune from being forced to side with a demon, illustrates how nonsensical this quest is.
[quote]Priisus wrote...
Yes for people who place complete trust in believing that she can complete the task, I can understand in your support that she should take the risks. I do have doubts whether the Eluvian will function as hoped/intended. Like I said so many times before, the Eluvian has so many "maybes"; you can argue that it is fixed and will be as Merrill intended it to be when it's fixed. As for those of us con-Eluvianers (can't think of a better word) think that it may not be fully fixed and will be manipulated by the demon if it's fixed. Both our viewpoints are valid but at the same time they're both still speculations. Once again, I would like to reinstate that Merrill is not stupid, she is very talented but she is not all-knowing either (again the fact that she needs the help of the demon to fix it in the first place proves that she doesn't know everything about the Eluvian). [/quote]
The Eluvian is a "maybe," but so is the entire storyline of Origins, and so is Hawke's venture into the Deep Roads for a chance to give his mother her childhood home. Risks were taken, and rewarded were gained, despite how dangerous those risks were.
[quote]Priisus wrote...
Once again, everybody's points are both valid. If you have complete faith in her and think she can do it, go ahead. For those of us who think that she is riding too much on chance, hey it's valid too. Everybody has their own viewpoints, nobody is trying to get at each other's throat just because we don't agree with the other party. This thread after all is a discussion about Merrill as a character, her motives and goals. I established that she is definitely not evil or crazy. The only thing is that people jump really, really quickly to her defense and does not seem to see that she is at fault (not even a little bit? I mean she is not to be blame at all for the tragedy to the clan?)... Maybe it's because you have complete love for the character which I absolutely have no complain about. But to have a complete love for her means that you think she is flawless... which I find impossible as nobody is perfect. [/quote]
I don't think anyone here has said that she is flawless, I think that some of us simply think that the potential reward for providing an irrevocable change for the elven people that can be felt for generations is worth the risks involved.
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Feel free to call me Lob. I still owe you a new labtop or gatorade, after all!
[/quote]Eh no, you owe Ethereal Writer a new gatorade, not me
Feel free to give me one though [/quote]I directed it to Ethereal Writer since he (which I'm assuming on the sole basis of his dwarven Warden) asked if it was OK to call me Lob.
Free gatorade? I guess I'm going to have to hope to strike it rich in the Deep Roads with the laptops and gatorades I need to hand out.
[quote]Priisus wrote...
Read my first post, I was arguing pretty heavily that blood magic isn't necessarily an evil form of magic. And never did I ever say that Merrill is a bad blood mage, the only thing she ever uses blood magic (lore-wise) for is to try and cleanse the Eluvian. [/quote]
I never claimed you said blood magic was evil, I was merely expanding the reaches for blood magic beyond the scope of the Tevinter slaver Caladrius - an example that you provided.
I also didn't say that you claimed that Merrill was a bad blood mage, I addressed that I don't agree that blood magic is self-destructive, akin to "slitting your wrists," as you stated earlier. You indicated that blood magic had prevented her from saving Pol, but I addressed that Merrill isn't a Spirit Healer - she couldn't try to help Pol in the same way that a Spirit Healer like Anders could.
[quote]Priisus wrote...
And let's try to not bring gameplay discussion to lore, it's quite a barb... [/quote]
When I said Grey Warden mages use blood magic, I was addressing what Duncan said in the Magi Origin: Grey Warden mages have used blood magic against the darkspawn, and this is followed up in the dialogue from The Warden in Warden's Keep, where the protagonist tells Levi Dryden that blood magic isn't prohibited by the order.
[quote]Priisus wrote...
My point is that to use blood magic, the mage needs to use a form of life force and in Merrill's case - her own. I get the "you're-paying-something-with-your-life" kind of feeling with blood magic, I mean damn it, this is a life force we're talking about. It's a serious matter. In the matter of healing, let's say Anders is a blood mage (please don't give me Anders can be a blood mage in Awakening argument. Once again, I beg people to not bring gameplay wise to lore discussion), he slits his wrist to do blood magic, it probably isn't as destructive to him as he can heal himself compared to Merrill who can't heal herself. Maybe blood magic doesn't hurt, mages seem to slit their wrists and be fine the next second. I'm not sure, it wasn't really explained in the game but to me sliting your wrist = self destructive especially if you can't heal yourself, that's my 2 cents on it. [/quote]
You mean conflating game mechanics with lore? I don't believe I did that when I addressed dialogue spoken by the former Warden-Commander of Ferelden and the protagonist of the Magi Origin. Also, you keep stating that it's self-destructive, but blood magic is a powerful means for a mage. It allows them to deal with templars, who are fully capable of nullifying standard magic, and they can accomplish things with blood that they cannot without the sufficient amount of lyrium avaliable (which is why Merrill turned to blood magic to cleanse the shard, rather than get killed by the templars if she asked them for lyrium).
[quote]Priisus wrote...
I did say in my first post that to consider blood magic evil is to analyze on who is using it to do what. The Baroness using blood magic to syphon the life out of young girls in Blackmarsh to maintain her youth. The Grey Wardens have a bigger issues, whenever they need to achieve the means to an end, it usually involve the safety of all Thedas. They know it's highly dangerous due to the use of life force, another reason why it isn't practiced widely. As for Merrill, I'm not disputing that the Eluvian (Merrill's) may indeed gives information on the lost days of the Elvhen OR it may bring nothing OR it may be used by the demon to go to another realm. We don't know and anything is up for debate. [/quote]
This thread certainly wouldn't be as long as it is without the debate and disagreement over Merrill's blood magic and her construction of the Eluvian.
[quote]Priisus wrote...
People likes to point out that the con-Eluvian thinks that it may bring back the corruption is just a speculation but so does the pro-Eluvian who said that the mirror will bring back the lost history of the Elvhen. Everything is a speculation at this point so we can't pinpoint and say the other party is wrong. [/quote]
Except it's commonly addressed that this is merely a possibility. No one pretends that it's a certainty, but we are saying that it's a possible conclusion to Merrill's reconstruction of the Eluvian. It's as much of a risk as the Warden going into the Deep Roads for Paragon Branka or heading to the Frostback Mountains for a myth known to heal the sick. Why shouldn't Hawke allow Merrill the opportunity to help her people when we - as the Warden - asked the same of our companions time and again? Even Hawke asks this of the people he brings with him into the Deep Roads so his family can benefit from the possible wealth of the ancient dwarves.
[quote]Priisus wrote...
As for my POV, I'm just trying to be on the side of cautious which is to say to expect the worst. And it's a fact that particular Eluvian at one point in time contained the Taint. [/quote]
Which is why the elves in the Ruins were corrupted by darkspawn taint in Witch Hunt even long after the Eluvian was shattered. This isn't the case with Merrill, who isn't a ghoul and has been handling the shard he brought with her from Ferelden.
[quote]Priisus wrote...
I'm not saying that she is naive to err on the side of caution, in fact she should be doing that, demons are dangerous issues. I'm saying she is naive to think that if **** happens, only she will be in danger. When starting the quest, there's an option to talk to Marethari about Merrill's plan, immediately I know the Keeper is going to interfere no matter what, whether you talk to her or not. Which is true since I did not talk to the Keeper and when we went to the cave, she had already sealed the demon inside of her. Or if Hawke fails to kill abomination Merrill and/or the clan fails too, then what will happen? Once again, I'm not suggesting Merrill to be possessed as canon but it is a very highly probable scenario since she said it herself. So if things didn't go according to plan and let's say Hawke loses to the demon/Merrill abomination... then what? [/quote]
It's a possibility, not a certainty. We have no idea what risks are entailed in dealing with an imprisoned demon in the real world who was sealed by ancient elven magic. However, Merrill prepared for the worst, and Hawke has a long period of demonstrating to Merrill that he can handle demons and abominations - including one who was said to be the most "powerful" of all Pride Demons.
[quote]Priisus wrote...
The fact that the shard is still corrupted in Witch Hunt is suggesting that it is still contain the taint which means Merill's piece of shard is corrupted. As for Warden, Finn, who is a Tevinter expert is there. Finn knows about the Eluvian more than Arianne does and they have the Light thingy (the stuff you hunt in Cadash Thaig) to help them with it. Merrill may know about the Eluvian as much as Finn if she studied it but the fact remains that she does not know how to cleanse/fix it until she met with the demon. It may be harmless to touch it due to the corruption may have been gone when Duncan smashed it or that the Eluvian is by that point... broken. [/quote]
Merrill isn't a ghoul, while the elves in the Elven Ruins where the broken Eluvian is are tainted by darkspawn corruption.
[quote]Priisus wrote...
Well yes of course and that quest seriously is so sad
I was just raising my eyebrows when people go all it's Marethari's fault that whole tragedy has to happen. [/quote]People are responsible for their own actions, but I'd agree that Marethari did it because she loved Merrill.
[quote]Priisus wrote...
Yes the player can choose to take it because Hawke is our character. But let's say Hawke is not our PC but a companion/NPC. And then comes along Topor and said to Hawke "hey dude, you want to be stronger? I can give you that as long as you gave me the dreamer." It's the same situation when the pride/desire demon gives a deal to the companions. [/quote]
The fact that everyone attempts to murder Hawke in cold blood because of a few lines of dialogue is absolutely ridiculous. We've seen from Origins and Awakening that the Fade doesn't work that way - people don't become stupid because a demon made an offer. The fact that every companion except the resident abomination will try to kill Hawke because a demon provided a few lines of dialogue, while Hawke is 100% immune from being forced to side with a demon, illustrates how nonsensical this quest is.
[quote]Priisus wrote...
Yes for people who place complete trust in believing that she can complete the task, I can understand in your support that she should take the risks. I do have doubts whether the Eluvian will function as hoped/intended. Like I said so many times before, the Eluvian has so many "maybes"; you can argue that it is fixed and will be as Merrill intended it to be when it's fixed. As for those of us con-Eluvianers (can't think of a better word) think that it may not be fully fixed and will be manipulated by the demon if it's fixed. Both our viewpoints are valid but at the same time they're both still speculations. Once again, I would like to reinstate that Merrill is not stupid, she is very talented but she is not all-knowing either (again the fact that she needs the help of the demon to fix it in the first place proves that she doesn't know everything about the Eluvian). [/quote]
The Eluvian is a "maybe," but so is the entire storyline of Origins, and so is Hawke's venture into the Deep Roads for a chance to give his mother her childhood home. Risks were taken, and rewarded were gained, despite how dangerous those risks were.
[quote]Priisus wrote...
Once again, everybody's points are both valid. If you have complete faith in her and think she can do it, go ahead. For those of us who think that she is riding too much on chance, hey it's valid too. Everybody has their own viewpoints, nobody is trying to get at each other's throat just because we don't agree with the other party. This thread after all is a discussion about Merrill as a character, her motives and goals. I established that she is definitely not evil or crazy. The only thing is that people jump really, really quickly to her defense and does not seem to see that she is at fault (not even a little bit? I mean she is not to be blame at all for the tragedy to the clan?)... Maybe it's because you have complete love for the character which I absolutely have no complain about. But to have a complete love for her means that you think she is flawless... which I find impossible as nobody is perfect. [/quote]
I don't think anyone here has said that she is flawless, I think that some of us simply think that the potential reward for providing an irrevocable change for the elven people that can be felt for generations is worth the risks involved.
#285
Posté 29 avril 2011 - 05:33
LobselVith8
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Priisus wrote...
The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
I realize you don't want it brought up, and I'm still reading your post, but I wanted to say that since you can address this to him it ceases to be a pure gameplay element and becomes a story element. Other than that little post of mine, I will refrain from using it in a discussion unless somebody else starts using it.
That may be because the devs at first weren't planning for him to make a return in DA2, if not they would not have made him a "I hate blood magic and everything it stands for" in DA2.
I will always first and foremost regard him as a Spirit Healer and nothing else lore wise, especially his "occupation" in DA2 - he is running a free clinic.
I don't think the developers were planning for Anders to be in the sequel, since it's a little hard to explain how an Anders who wasn't recruited by The Warden met a Justice who was killed in the Dragonbone Wastes by The Warden. Unless we use the Doc Brown principal of time travel.
Regarding blood magic, you'd think that Anders wouldn't have a problem with all blood mages given that the Warden-Commander can be one, though (and The Warden being a blood mage was actually addressed in a scene with Wynne at the end of "A Broken Circle," where she confronted The Warden on magic that looked like blood magic - but could be explained away as "Grey Warden magic" with minimal coercion, but the scene was disabled because it apparently bugged the Landsmeet - and still does if it's enabled with a mod).
Priisus wrote...
The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Justice won't try to kill you if you persuade him that sparing the Architect is the right course of action.
Yeah I know and I always do that if I bring him to Mother's Lair. But without the Coercion skill, he would have kill the Warden no matter his approval level is... just proving the point that he can only see black and white.
Sorry for the long post
I can't spare the Architect. Given the sneak attack by the Witherend, the living Grey Warden who contradicted the Architect's claims that they were all dead, Signrun's comments about the intelligent darkspawn taking women to be made Broodmothers, the Broodmothers the Warden killed in Kal-Hirol, the Messenger spreading disease to people, and the Architect's habit of causing enormous problems - like the Fifth Blight - I had to agree with Sigrun and Justice.
Darkspawn eat people and violate women to procreate. Letting the Architect live, and giving the possibility of wars with intelligent darkspawn - when we see how dangerous intelligent darkspawn are when they are commanded by the Archdemon, who continually outwits the humans with his sneak attack in Ostagar and fooling the troops into thinking his horde is attacking Redcliffe, when otherwise they are "mindless groups of darkspawn" - as well as women being taken to create new Broodmothers like the darkspawn operating for the Mother were doing, I had to go on the side of caution and concern myself with the dangers that intelligent darkspawn posed to all the sentient races of Thedas.
Long posts are infectious.
#286
Posté 29 avril 2011 - 05:49
Joy Divison
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Herr Uhl wrote...
Joy Divison wrote...
I find Anders's arrogance and hypocricy toward Merrill's dealings w/ spirits before you complete the Sir Alrik quest annoying. He chastises Merrill for dealing with spirits when he willingly allowed himself to merge with a fade spirit. I understand he does so based on his Andrastian beliefs, but, for me anyway, basing hypocrisy on religious dogma is not exactly an endearing trait.
He should know then. I doubt that the chantry were the first to have this separation between demons and spirits either, so calling it religious dogma is a bit harsh.
But he doesn't know until the Sir Alrik quest. Before this his dialogue strongly suggests he differentiates between his dealings w/ Justice and Merrill's based on the Andrastian persepctive.
- Anders: Maybe you don't really understand the difference between spirits and demons.
- Merrill: Did I ask you?
- Anders: Spirits were the first children of the Maker, but He turned his back on them to dote on His mortal creations.
- Anders: The ones who resented this became demons, driven to take everything mortals had and gain back the Maker's favor.
- Merrill: Your "Maker" is a story you humans use to explain the world.
- Merrill: We have our own stories. I don't need to borrow yours.
[*]
- Anders: Do Dalish honestly not recognize the difference between demons and beneficial spirits?
- Merrill: We’ve never thought of the Fade as the home of our gods.
- Merrill: It is another realm, another people's home. No different or more foreign than, say, Orzammar.
- Anders: But have you never studied the types of demons? They break down very clearly into different sins—
- Merrill: Spirits differ from each other, just as you and Hawke and Isabela are all human.
- Merrill: More or less...
Modifié par Joy Divison, 29 avril 2011 - 05:54 .
#287
Posté 29 avril 2011 - 06:06
TEWR
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to Lob, I am indeed of the male variety of the human species. Or I'm among the other variety.
But the Architect seems to keep his word if you let him live, and the Deep Roads are quieter than usual for the Dwarves.
However, Nathaniel Howe is given faulty information by the Disciples that the way to the Primeval Thaig is clear and safe. If the Architect's dead, he's given bad info. If he's alive, he's given faulty info.
I'm not sure what to make of it. I always let him live, but my Wardens always harbor a fear that the 6th Blight will be the worst yet.
Well, it wasn't meant to be a sneak attack. It was just meant to be a peaceful talk, which the Wardens took as an assault. At least according to the Architect. But I remember the Withered saying "It has ended just as he foretold."
Now I'm wondering if it was meant to be an assault.
Sigrun's comments about the Disciples taking female dwarves shouldn't be taken to mean they were the Architects Disciples. They were Disciple Heretics, cronies of The Mother. So pin that on The Mother and her leading the Disciples, not The Architect.
The Messenger only spread isolated cases of the Blight disease, and we really don't know if anyone was infected. That slide just could've meant that parts of the land were infected. Nevertheless, he helped those travelers he met, so I'd say his spreading the taint doesn't matter when he's an actual good darkspawn.
Let's just hope he doesn't try his Joining Ritual on the other two old gods.
.But the Architect seems to keep his word if you let him live, and the Deep Roads are quieter than usual for the Dwarves.
However, Nathaniel Howe is given faulty information by the Disciples that the way to the Primeval Thaig is clear and safe. If the Architect's dead, he's given bad info. If he's alive, he's given faulty info.
I'm not sure what to make of it. I always let him live, but my Wardens always harbor a fear that the 6th Blight will be the worst yet.
I can't spare the Architect. Given the sneak attack by the Witherend, the living Grey Warden who contradicted the Architect's claims that they were all dead, Signrun's comments about the intelligent darkspawn taking women to be made Broodmothers, the Broodmothers the Warden killed in Kal-Hirol, the Messenger spreading disease to people, and the Architect's habit of causing enormous problems - like the Fifth Blight - I had to agree with Sigrun and Justice.
Well, it wasn't meant to be a sneak attack. It was just meant to be a peaceful talk, which the Wardens took as an assault. At least according to the Architect. But I remember the Withered saying "It has ended just as he foretold."
Now I'm wondering if it was meant to be an assault.
Sigrun's comments about the Disciples taking female dwarves shouldn't be taken to mean they were the Architects Disciples. They were Disciple Heretics, cronies of The Mother. So pin that on The Mother and her leading the Disciples, not The Architect.
The Messenger only spread isolated cases of the Blight disease, and we really don't know if anyone was infected. That slide just could've meant that parts of the land were infected. Nevertheless, he helped those travelers he met, so I'd say his spreading the taint doesn't matter when he's an actual good darkspawn.
Let's just hope he doesn't try his Joining Ritual on the other two old gods.
Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 29 avril 2011 - 06:14 .
#288
Posté 30 avril 2011 - 02:41
dragonflight288
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lol. Did this turn from Merrill being evil and crazy or friendly and selfless to the Architect being honorable or deceitful?
#289
Posté 30 avril 2011 - 03:15
TEWR
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I think so. Let's try to relate them to one another!
......
*is unable to make a connection between the two*
......
*is unable to make a connection between the two*
#290
Posté 30 avril 2011 - 04:36
LobselVith8
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dragonflight288 wrote...
lol. Did this turn from Merrill being evil and crazy or friendly and selfless to the Architect being honorable or deceitful?
Well, the Architect is a mage, Merrill is a mage, there's the issue of the darkspawn corruption, the dichotomy of a dilemma that has far reaching implications for the people and the risks involved with making a choice either for or against...
Back ontopic, I thought you brought up some good points about her relationships with the other companions. I've read that Sebastian actually addresses that he comments on the Dalish not believing in the Maker if he's brought to their camp at Sundermount. Is this true? I've read some people taking him to task for what he's said, but never heard him speak the dialogue myself.
Also, I found it a little odd that Hawke said that Merrill didn't get along with Bethany (when she's consoling him)when there are only two lines from his sister that address Merrill as a blood magic - and they have some civil conversations regardless. Merrill even talks in fun about a cake the size of Kirkwall or a pet griffin named Feathers with Bethany.
#291
Posté 30 avril 2011 - 07:40
TEWR
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I'm replaying DA2 now and I just met Merrill. More proof that she isn't naive or stupid is that she knows that if she goes to Kirkwall she can avoid the Templars by getting lost in the crowds. She knows that being a solitary elf outside of Kirkwall makes her easy prey, even with her magic.
EDIT: I think Merrill should teach the city elves to form their own clan and the benefits of Dalish life, and maybe Feynriel could be their Keeper when he's done his studies on how to control the powers of a Somniari (Dreamer). That's just me though.
EDIT: I think Merrill should teach the city elves to form their own clan and the benefits of Dalish life, and maybe Feynriel could be their Keeper when he's done his studies on how to control the powers of a Somniari (Dreamer). That's just me though.
Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 30 avril 2011 - 07:49 .
#292
Posté 30 avril 2011 - 07:47
Priisus
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Well, since this going back and forth have gone on too long. I shall stop getting into most of the arguments, lest I go into another essay length reply 
I personally never took Topor's offer through my 3 playthroughs. I was watching my boyfriend doing the quest and his mage took the deal just to see what the heck the reward is... and saw Merrill gaining friendship points. I never paid attention to what she said when you hear Topor out... I didn't know that she said they shouldn't be doing it all. I thought she was with hearing demons out which means +friendship point is consistent with her personality. Or maybe it's a bug... or maybe it's just a friendship point for hearing Topor in the first place *shrug*
I'm getting kinda lost by your explanation here... Are you saying that Anders is being a hyprocite to Merrill because him merging with a good spirit is ok for him to do because he thinks he can master it? While at the same time scolding her for making a deal with demon? And then feels that he is being a hyprocite because his good spirit turned into a demon of vengeance due to his own anger?
I don't think Anders is using the Andrastian belief to reason that merging with a spirit is ok, it is more of because Justice is a spirit that he had grown to trust and befriend. I bet even if some random "good spirit" like Valor approached him in the Fade and asked to merge with him to free mages, he won't agree to it. After all, he didn't care about the mages' plight in the first place and in the course of Awakening, Justice convinced him slowly to take a more active role as shown in their banters ("You have seen oppression and are now free. You must act to free those who remain oppressed"). Merrill's demon is certainly not one that she had spent some time with, or will know how it behaves; it's simply a trapped demon that somehow felt her presence (conveniently when the clan moved to Sundermount) and called her in the Fade. I think Anders is more concerned about Merrill for dealing with demon which lead her to blood magic (albeit he is showing it in a way that he thinks he knows better about demons than her which I don't think is the case... just the tone it was delivered makes it seem like so). I think he wants to believe that Merrill had accidentally learned blood magic and not due to the demon (shown in their early banters).
As for your points about the mages not considering the possibility of failure due to their pride. Tarohne sold her soul to the demon (plus she's crazy and the veil in Kirkwall is thin so she's like... super crazy and a madwoman's reasoning is not valid). As for Uldred, he summoned a demon in the whim of time trying to get away from Irving, got overwhelmed and become an abomination. Yes Anders wan't being cautious about spirits while Merrill is. However, I don't think it's due to arrogance to think that he can master the fade within himself. I feel that it is more of because his trust for Justice had clouded his perspective and then unfortunate circumstances that happened afterwards (ex-templar Warden tried to kill him + Karl being watched in Kirwall etc) which drove them to the dangerous path of no return. While Uldred summoned a demon because he thinks it can help him to defeat Irving and then getting away with it. Then yes, pride can be applied to Uldred in this case.
But I can definitely agree that Merrill knowing that all spirits are dangerous to be a good thing on her part. However she knows it's dangerous and yet pursuing it is worrying for me no matter how good her cause is (since we already touched a lot on this aspect... and this is the view that I held... So let's just leave this as it is or it will be another back to back posts
)
Well the context of rival in the game is about not sharing the same viewpoints, which they both are when it comes to blood magic. Although they get along generally well until Act 3...
Well then I hope you find the riches in the Deep Roads so I can get a free gatorade
I think you misinterpret a lot of what I said (about Spirit Healer and lore vs gameplay part) but I'm not going to reply to most of it (since it will be another back to back posts)... just pointing out the more specific ones:
Yes the Eluvian is a maybe and so are gathering allies/possibility of defeating the blight and Hawke's venture into the Deep Roads. I just felt that for the Warden's quest where a blight is involved and one that will endanger all of Thedas if not stopped asap. It's a life-threatening situation, a real crisis. As for Hawke, s/he needs coins and status to hide because s/he is an apostate or that s/he is trying to protect Bethany from the Gallows and the Deep Roads expedition is the most certain way to attain it because nobody else care about refugees. These are immediate problems that the Warden and Hawke face in the present.
As for recovering the lost history of the Elvhen, it will be great if it happens and who knows what kind of untold powers that were held (since the Elvhen were immortals) but... it is still something of the past, a history. They're all lottery tickets but for Warden and Hawke, they need that lottery ticket desperately because of immediate, present threats. Maybe somehow in the future, the Elves rediscover their ancient history using another Eluvian but it can be 10 years from now or 100 years from now... After all she doesn't care how long she took to fix the Eluvian, she just wants it fixed.
Lol you're funny [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/grin.png[/smilie]
wickedgoodreed wrote...
I have to admit her gaining friendship points there confuses (and
concerns) me since she actually says, "I don't think we should be doing
this" and at other points in the game argues against sacrificing
innocents. Going back to the Hunger Demon in the Deep Roads, Merrill
doesn't give friendship points for accepting the demon's offer there so
it seems inconsistent to me.
I personally never took Topor's offer through my 3 playthroughs. I was watching my boyfriend doing the quest and his mage took the deal just to see what the heck the reward is... and saw Merrill gaining friendship points. I never paid attention to what she said when you hear Topor out... I didn't know that she said they shouldn't be doing it all. I thought she was with hearing demons out which means +friendship point is consistent with her personality. Or maybe it's a bug... or maybe it's just a friendship point for hearing Topor in the first place *shrug*
Joy Divison wrote...
I find Anders's arrogance and hypocricy toward Merrill's dealings w/
spirits before you complete the Sir Alrik quest annoying. He chastises
Merrill for dealing with spirits when he willingly allowed himself to
merge with a fade spirit. I understand he does so based on his
Andrastian beliefs, but, for me anyway, basing hypocrisy on religious
dogma is not exactly an endearing trait.
I associated Anders w/ Uldred/Tarohne/Avernus not because he had selfish
goals or because he was a jerk - neither in fact are true - but because
all of them lacked a cautious approach to spirits and shared an
arrogance they all would master the fade on their terms (which I think
is a valid comparison). Their motivations for dealing w/ spirits and
beliefs why they would succeed are indeed different, but none of them
seriously entertained the possibility that they might fail in their
dealings w/ spirits. Again Merrill's acknowledgment the possibility of
failure is something that impressed me.
Though I'm not sure Anders is Merrill's natural rival; I'm pretty sure
Fenris is the companion who is by far the most spiteful and meanest to
Merrill.
I'm getting kinda lost by your explanation here... Are you saying that Anders is being a hyprocite to Merrill because him merging with a good spirit is ok for him to do because he thinks he can master it? While at the same time scolding her for making a deal with demon? And then feels that he is being a hyprocite because his good spirit turned into a demon of vengeance due to his own anger?
I don't think Anders is using the Andrastian belief to reason that merging with a spirit is ok, it is more of because Justice is a spirit that he had grown to trust and befriend. I bet even if some random "good spirit" like Valor approached him in the Fade and asked to merge with him to free mages, he won't agree to it. After all, he didn't care about the mages' plight in the first place and in the course of Awakening, Justice convinced him slowly to take a more active role as shown in their banters ("You have seen oppression and are now free. You must act to free those who remain oppressed"). Merrill's demon is certainly not one that she had spent some time with, or will know how it behaves; it's simply a trapped demon that somehow felt her presence (conveniently when the clan moved to Sundermount) and called her in the Fade. I think Anders is more concerned about Merrill for dealing with demon which lead her to blood magic (albeit he is showing it in a way that he thinks he knows better about demons than her which I don't think is the case... just the tone it was delivered makes it seem like so). I think he wants to believe that Merrill had accidentally learned blood magic and not due to the demon (shown in their early banters).
As for your points about the mages not considering the possibility of failure due to their pride. Tarohne sold her soul to the demon (plus she's crazy and the veil in Kirkwall is thin so she's like... super crazy and a madwoman's reasoning is not valid). As for Uldred, he summoned a demon in the whim of time trying to get away from Irving, got overwhelmed and become an abomination. Yes Anders wan't being cautious about spirits while Merrill is. However, I don't think it's due to arrogance to think that he can master the fade within himself. I feel that it is more of because his trust for Justice had clouded his perspective and then unfortunate circumstances that happened afterwards (ex-templar Warden tried to kill him + Karl being watched in Kirwall etc) which drove them to the dangerous path of no return. While Uldred summoned a demon because he thinks it can help him to defeat Irving and then getting away with it. Then yes, pride can be applied to Uldred in this case.
But I can definitely agree that Merrill knowing that all spirits are dangerous to be a good thing on her part. However she knows it's dangerous and yet pursuing it is worrying for me no matter how good her cause is (since we already touched a lot on this aspect... and this is the view that I held... So let's just leave this as it is or it will be another back to back posts
)Well the context of rival in the game is about not sharing the same viewpoints, which they both are when it comes to blood magic. Although they get along generally well until Act 3...
LobselVith8 wrote...
Free gatorade? I guess I'm going to have to hope to strike it rich in
the Deep Roads with the laptops and gatorades I need to hand out. ../../../images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png
Well then I hope you find the riches in the Deep Roads so I can get a free gatorade
I think you misinterpret a lot of what I said (about Spirit Healer and lore vs gameplay part) but I'm not going to reply to most of it (since it will be another back to back posts)... just pointing out the more specific ones:
The Eluvian is a "maybe," but so is the entire storyline of Origins, and
so is Hawke's venture into the Deep Roads for a chance to give his
mother her childhood home. Risks were taken, and rewarded were gained,
despite how dangerous those risks were.
Yes the Eluvian is a maybe and so are gathering allies/possibility of defeating the blight and Hawke's venture into the Deep Roads. I just felt that for the Warden's quest where a blight is involved and one that will endanger all of Thedas if not stopped asap. It's a life-threatening situation, a real crisis. As for Hawke, s/he needs coins and status to hide because s/he is an apostate or that s/he is trying to protect Bethany from the Gallows and the Deep Roads expedition is the most certain way to attain it because nobody else care about refugees. These are immediate problems that the Warden and Hawke face in the present.
As for recovering the lost history of the Elvhen, it will be great if it happens and who knows what kind of untold powers that were held (since the Elvhen were immortals) but... it is still something of the past, a history. They're all lottery tickets but for Warden and Hawke, they need that lottery ticket desperately because of immediate, present threats. Maybe somehow in the future, the Elves rediscover their ancient history using another Eluvian but it can be 10 years from now or 100 years from now... After all she doesn't care how long she took to fix the Eluvian, she just wants it fixed.
The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
*is unable to make a connection between the two*
Lol you're funny [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/grin.png[/smilie]
Modifié par Priisus, 30 avril 2011 - 07:54 .
#293
Posté 30 avril 2011 - 04:11
Addai
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The templars are all over Kirkwall, including the alienage.The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
I'm replaying DA2 now and I just met Merrill. More proof that she isn't naive or stupid is that she knows that if she goes to Kirkwall she can avoid the Templars by getting lost in the crowds. She knows that being a solitary elf outside of Kirkwall makes her easy prey, even with her magic.
EDIT: I think Merrill should teach the city elves to form their own clan and the benefits of Dalish life, and maybe Feynriel could be their Keeper when he's done his studies on how to control the powers of a Somniari (Dreamer). That's just me though.
The alienages are usually shown as close-knit, and they have some reverence for Marethari (whereas the Denerim elves weren't even sure the Dalish exist). I don't imagine having a mage in charge of their community would go over well with the Chantry. Besides, the Dalish way of life is precarious and forced on them by circumstance, it's not romantic or that advantageous.
#294
Posté 30 avril 2011 - 05:11
dragonflight288
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But it is curious that the alienage evles pay so much respect to Merethari as she comes in and Merrill's little codex entry of her years show that even the most social people go out of their way to avoid her.
Modifié par dragonflight288, 30 avril 2011 - 05:12 .
#296
Posté 30 avril 2011 - 05:17
dragonflight288
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You talking about Merrill or Merethari? Or someone else?
#297
Posté 30 avril 2011 - 05:20
yfullman
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She is just stupid. But I can appreciate that everything she did,she did to help her people. I just don't like her methods
#298
Posté 30 avril 2011 - 05:41
dragonflight288
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And why do you feel she is stupid?
#299
Posté 30 avril 2011 - 07:30
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A late comer to this thread, but here is my two cents. I see Merrill as an extremely humble mage of incredible power. As long as she can keep all the variables affecting her plans under her control, she achieves the results she desires.
Her extremely ambitious and dare I say patriotic plan is to restore the Elvehan to its former glorly. Not "saving elven history," or whatever. She sees the Eluvian as the most direct way of achieving the reversal of the elves' tragic fate.
As a result, she sees powering the Elvehan through blood magic as a tool to be used for helping people. There are others like this in the DAO universe; Alain and Jowan are examples too, as well as Morrigan (remember, the dark ritual was specfically identified by her as being blood magic, and it had benevolent goals, at least in part). It's true that non-evil blood mages are rare in the games, but whatever the corrupting power of the magic, she believes she has it under control. She does not actively seek to harm anyone.
Before meeting Hawke, and before Hawke's rise to champion status, she knows that she or Hawke could not handle freeing the demon by herself/themselves. Once Hawke became powerful enough---Champion---she knows Hawke can slay her if she becomes possessed. Only then does she risk it. Again, a variable carefully controlled.
The only variable she did not carefully control was Marithari. She did not believe (and who would have?) that Marithari would have endangered the whole tribe in this manner. Marithari's action was completely wild and unpredictable, bringing Merrill's carefully crafted scenario crashing down on her head.
So, to summarize: I see Merrill as a powerful, benevolent, and highly careful mage, who failed to properly account for only one factor, with tragic results.
Her extremely ambitious and dare I say patriotic plan is to restore the Elvehan to its former glorly. Not "saving elven history," or whatever. She sees the Eluvian as the most direct way of achieving the reversal of the elves' tragic fate.
As a result, she sees powering the Elvehan through blood magic as a tool to be used for helping people. There are others like this in the DAO universe; Alain and Jowan are examples too, as well as Morrigan (remember, the dark ritual was specfically identified by her as being blood magic, and it had benevolent goals, at least in part). It's true that non-evil blood mages are rare in the games, but whatever the corrupting power of the magic, she believes she has it under control. She does not actively seek to harm anyone.
Before meeting Hawke, and before Hawke's rise to champion status, she knows that she or Hawke could not handle freeing the demon by herself/themselves. Once Hawke became powerful enough---Champion---she knows Hawke can slay her if she becomes possessed. Only then does she risk it. Again, a variable carefully controlled.
The only variable she did not carefully control was Marithari. She did not believe (and who would have?) that Marithari would have endangered the whole tribe in this manner. Marithari's action was completely wild and unpredictable, bringing Merrill's carefully crafted scenario crashing down on her head.
So, to summarize: I see Merrill as a powerful, benevolent, and highly careful mage, who failed to properly account for only one factor, with tragic results.
#300
Posté 30 avril 2011 - 09:05
TEWR
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you misunderstood me. I meant Merrill teaches them how Dalish life could benefit them and teach them about the Creators, and they eventually decide to form their own clan. They'd need a Keeper first, but that could be settled at the next Gathering of Clans
