407 réponses à ce sujet

[ladyofpayne]

Stupid little girl who play with fire. Marethari's fate was very sad, I really wanted to kill Merril.

[thats1evildude]

draken-heart wrote...

maaaybe, right now, she looks like veronica would in scribe robes, kinda cute in a wierd way.

For a second there, I thought you were talking about Veronica from Archie comics.

I was just about to say "Well, Merill is really more of a Betty …"

[Monster20862]

She's eccentric, and perhaps a bit naive, but not evil.

[dragonflight288]

ladyofpayne wrote...

Stupid little girl who play with fire. Marethari's fate was very sad, I really wanted to kill Merril.

Merethari's fate was a result of Merethari's own decisions. No one told her or forced her to become an abomination. She did it all on her own. You can't blame Merrill for the fate of the Dalish there. They are adults and can make their own choices. Merrill wasn't even a part of them for years as she was living in Kirkwall.

[Beerfish]

Merehari was dumber than Merrill. I don't think Merill was evil but I do think she was a bit off the deep end.

[General User]

I don't think Merrill was evil or crazy.  Nor was she naive.  In a way she was stupid, but not really.

What she was arrogant and obsessed. Merrill arrogantly believed the she could and should unlock the "secrets" of that eluvian. And her obsession with doing just that drove her away from the people who needed her most, when they needed her most.

Modifié par General User, 15 août 2012 - 05:51 .

[dragonflight288]

General User wrote...

I don't think Merrill was evil or crazy.  Nor was she naive.  In a way she was stupid, but not really.

What she was arrogant and obsessed. Merrill arrogantly believed the she could and should unlock the "secrets" of that eluvian. And her obsession with doing just that drove her away from the people who needed her most, when they needed her most.

And wanted absolutely nothing to do with her.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 15 août 2012 - 06:56 .

[General User]

Her Clan? Merrill left them. And the hostility associated with that break solely existed as a direct result of Merrill's single-minded pursuit of a project she never should have been involved with in the first place.

Modifié par General User, 15 août 2012 - 07:03 .

[Xilizhra]

General User wrote...

Her Clan? Merrill left them. And the hostility associated with that break solely existed as a direct result of Merrill's single-minded pursuit of a project she never should have been involved with in the first place.

Actually, that only led to minor hostility. The major stuff came due to Marethari's combination of distorted truth and outright lies later on.

[LobselVith8]

Chiramu wrote...

My answer to the thread title, Merrill is a CHILD...in an adult's body...>.>This made her the most annoying character to interact with, because you are FORCED to play a babysitter!

I don't see why you think Merrill is a child. Is it because she refuses to be passive about the plight of her people? Is it because she studied the lore on the Eluvian and extrapolated information from the shard? Is it because she thought an invaluable piece of technology was worth preserving, when the entire premise of the Dalish is to preserve elven culture, history, and knowledge?

Merrill was an adult, and an ambitious person who wanted to overturn centuries of a dwindling culture to irrevocably change the People for the better.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

General User wrote...

Her Clan? Merrill left them. And the hostility associated with that break solely existed as a direct result of Merrill's single-minded pursuit of a project she never should have been involved with in the first place.

Actually, that only led to minor hostility. The major stuff came due to Marethari's combination of distorted truth and outright lies later on.

Merrill was a bloodmage who consorted with demons obsessed with a forbidden artifact.  It wouldn't take much "distortion" at all to make deep suspicion and overt hostility an appropriate reaction to seeing her. 

Besides it doesn't change that Merrill turned her back on her family when they needed her most.  Actually if your idea that Marethari is up to some nefarious shenanigans is at all related to the truth, it could make Merrill an even more despicable person than I thought, since she abandoned her people not only when they were in dire straits, but being lead by a deranged Keeper.

[Xilizhra]

Merrill was a bloodmage who consorted with demons obsessed with a forbidden artifact. It wouldn't take much "distortion" at all to make deep suspicion and overt hostility an appropriate reaction to seeing her.

Only some suspicion would be appropriate. She only talked with a demon once, to learn blood magic to begin with, and didn't do so again, and the "forbidden" artifact is a piece of the Dalish's past, the thing they're supposedly totally focused on rebuilding to begin with.

Besides it doesn't change that Merrill turned her back on her family when they needed her most. Actually if your idea that Marethari is up to some nefarious shenanigans is at all related to the truth, it could make Merrill an even more despicable person than I thought, since she abandoned her people not only when they were in dire straits, but being lead by a deranged Keeper.

Hah. Merrill was doing everything she could to help her clan, and she couldn't do so in the immediate vicinity because, well, none of them would accept her.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

Only some suspicion would be appropriate. She only talked with a demon once, to learn blood magic to begin with, and didn't do so again, and the "forbidden" artifact is a piece of the Dalish's past, the thing they're supposedly totally focused on rebuilding to begin with.

Don't mistake cultural values for anything other than what they are.  Merrill's responsibility was first and foremost to help her Clan survive the extreme situation they were in, not to doggedly pursue the Dalish's supposed purpose.

Xilizhra wrote...

Hah. Merrill was doing everything she could to help her clan, and she couldn't do so in the immediate vicinity because, well, none of them would accept her.

Merrill wasn't doing a thing to help her Clan.  She was focused entirely on the eluvian.  Merrill chose between the two (and chose wrong) even when no choice was asked of her.  If she had been more patient or obedient she might have been able to do both. 

[Xilizhra]

Don't mistake cultural values for anything other than what they are. Merrill's responsibility was first and foremost to help her Clan survive the extreme situation they were in, not to doggedly pursue the Dalish's supposed purpose.

The clan wouldn't have been in an extreme position to begin with if Marethari hadn't parked on a demon-infested mountain for seven years. The halla loss was solvable in far less time than that, without Merrill.

Merrill wasn't doing a thing to help her Clan. She was focused entirely on the eluvian. Merrill chose between the two (and chose wrong) even when no choice was asked of her. If she had been more patient or obedient she might have been able to do both.

Her goal was to help the Dalish as a whole, which would by extension cover her clan.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

The clan wouldn't have been in an extreme position to begin with if Marethari hadn't parked on a demon-infested mountain for seven years. The halla loss was solvable in far less time than that, without Merrill.

They had to solve their halla loss without Merril, since she left them to pursue her pet project.

Xilizhra wrote...

Her goal was to help the Dalish as a whole, which would by extension cover her clan.

I'm not saying Merrill didn't have (in a way) good intentions.  Rather it was her single-minded pursuit of those goals no matter how "noble" they may or may not be, that makes Merrill such a contemptible person.

Modifié par General User, 16 août 2012 - 11:54 .

[Xilizhra]

How would a second, apprentice mage whom no one even likes much help a lot in getting more halla? It isn't as though anyone seemed particularly concerned about the situation; there was only one elf who was openly sad, even. The rest of the dialogue in the camp is quite casual, certainly not befitting people who are in an immediate and dangerous crisis.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

How would a second, apprentice mage whom no one even likes much help a lot in getting more halla?

It's not necessarily in acquiring new halla that Merrill would be most helpful (though she may very well be), but in continuing to provide for her Clan's needs after the manner of a First, ie providing lore-related/educational and magical services.

Xilizhra wrote...

It isn't as though anyone seemed particularly concerned about the situation; there was only one elf who was openly sad, even. The rest of the dialogue in the camp is quite casual, certainly not befitting people who are in an immediate and dangerous crisis.

Couple things.  First the Dalish are a very proud people with a great antipathy towards humans.  So I would be extraordinarily surprised if they casually showed any potential sign of weakness in front of a shemlen. 

But moreover the crisis Merrill's clan faced was indeed dangerous (and I'd say "imminent" rather than "immediate"), but it was also constant.  I can personally vouch that even when people live for an extended period of time in an environment of imminent danger the more casual and mundane concerns of life are indeed still dealt with.

Modifié par General User, 16 août 2012 - 12:19 .

[Xilizhra]

It's not necessarily in acquiring new halla that Merrill would be most helpful (though she may very well be), but in continuing to provide for her Clan's needs after the manner of a First, ie providing lore-related/educational and magical services.

Firsts are replaceable, moreso than Keepers. If Marethari was doing her job at all, she'd handle that role well enough. You're reading far too much into this situation.

Couple things. First the Dalish are a very proud people with a great antipathy towards humans. So I would be extraordinarily surprised if they casually showed any potential sign of weakness in front of a shemlen.

But moreover the crisis Merrill's clan faced was indeed dangerous (and I'd say "imminent" rather than "immediate"), but it was also constant. I can personally vouch that even when people live for an extended period of time in an environment of imminent danger the more casual and mundane concerns of life are indeed still dealt with.

One elf leaving won't make it significantly worse, unless it was someone in an actual leadership position, which Merrill is decidedly not. She's not even trusted that much. The "imminent" danger never ends up being that dangerous.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

Firsts are replaceable, moreso than Keepers. If Marethari was doing her job at all, she'd handle that role well enough. You're reading far too much into this situation.

The only person responsible for Marethari was Marethari.  Merrill had her own responsibilities, and turned her back on them.

One elf leaving won't make it significantly worse, unless it was someone in an actual leadership position, which Merrill is decidedly not. She's not even trusted that much.

Merrill was one of the most talented and capable mages in Thedas.  That's a significant loss.  And Merrill was trusted (and liked), but she squandered all that by pursuing her eluvian project.

The "imminent" danger never ends up being that dangerous.

Expect that it was.  Merrill's clan was stranded in a foreign land surrounded by enemies.  Very dangerous.

[Xilizhra]

The only person responsible for Marethari was Marethari. Merrill had her own responsibilities, and turned her back on them.

Merrill was fulfilling them in a far more powerful way than any of the rest of the clan was.

Merrill was one of the most talented and capable mages in Thedas. That's a significant loss. And Merrill was trusted (and liked), but she squandered all that by pursuing her eluvian project.

She didn't actually lose much trust from the Eluvian itself, only from Marethari's slander.

Expect that it was. Merrill's clan was stranded in a foreign land surrounded by enemies. Very dangerous.

None of these enemies materialize until Act 2, that only happens if you send Feynriel to the Dalish, and I think that's after they got more halla and could have left.

I'll also say that this topic is rather personal to me and I may be growing more outright angry, so our continuing to pursue this may not be in anyone's best interest.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

I'll also say that this topic is rather personal to me and I may be growing more outright angry, so our continuing to pursue this may not be in anyone's best interest.

Well, that's certainly not my intention.   I respect both your passion and your candor.  If you wish continue this converstation later, just let me know.

[Xilizhra]

If you think about it, Merrill is really the perfect person to do something like this. She's a mage, which is necessary, but she's also more expendable than the Keeper and is willing to use all the resources available to her.

In the end, it comes down to this: It's a matter of opinion whether or not Merrill would be most helpful rebuilding the Eluvian or remaining with the clan. I admit that, although I trust Merrill's judgment on the matter and believe that the Dalish should be doing something concrete to rebuild their past, moreso than they've been trying to so far, in any case. It is, however, a matter of fact that Merrill's only intentions were to help her clan, along with the Dalish in general. She did not abandon anyone; such requires a state of mind that she wasn't it. All she did was try to help them from an unpopular angle, and that isn't nearly the same thing.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

If you think about it, Merrill is really the perfect person to do something like this. She's a mage, which is necessary, but she's also more expendable than the Keeper and is willing to use all the resources available to her.

It's not Merrill that you should think of as expendable but rather the
eluvian.  Merrill was far more valuable than that old relic could ever
be, even if it did work.

Xilizhra wrote...

In the end, it comes down to this: It's a matter of opinion whether or not Merrill would be most helpful rebuilding the Eluvian or remaining with the clan. I admit that, although I trust Merrill's judgment on the matter and believe that the Dalish should be doing something concrete to rebuild their past, moreso than they've been trying to so far, in any case. It is, however, a matter of fact that Merrill's only intentions were to help her clan, along with the Dalish in general.

Again, Merrill's intentions were never in doubt.

Xilizhra wrote...

She did not abandon anyone; such requires a state of mind that she wasn't it.

You're wrong.  Merrill had the exact state of mind to abandon her Clan.  Specifically, that fixing that eluvian was more important than
anything else, including helping them with their problems. 

Now you could say that Merrill thought she was helping her Clan by fixing that eluvian, and you'd not be wrong; Merrill did indeed think that.  But that just goes back to arrogance, Merrill deciding that she and she alone knew what was best for the entire elven race because, again, if Merrill had been more humble and patient she could have done both.

Xilizhra wrote...

All she did was try to help them from an unpopular angle, and that isn't nearly the same thing.

Merrill's work with that eluvian was more than just unpopular, it was also dangerous and unnecessary.  Pursuing it at all was arrogant (especially alone), and doing so to the point of neglecting other duties was irresponsible as well.


===
Look, I don't doubt that Merrill had good intentions or worthy goals, I don't even doubt that she was essentially a good person at her core (if you look deep enough).  But it's like Katie Holmes said in Batman: "It's not who you are underneath but what you do that defines you."  And, it's by that measure Merrill comes up ridiculously short.

Modifié par General User, 16 août 2012 - 03:04 .

[Xilizhra]

It's not Merrill that you should think of as expendable but rather the
eluvian. Merrill was far more valuable than that old relic could ever
be, even if it did work.

So finding out how to build teleportation devices wouldn't be useful?

You're wrong. Merrill had the exact state of mind to abandon her Clan. Specifically, that fixing that eluvian was more important than
anything else, including helping them with their problems.

Now you could say that Merrill thought she was helping her Clan by fixing that eluvian, and you'd not be wrong; Merrill did indeed think that. But that just goes back to arrogance, Merrill deciding that she and she alone knew what was best for the entire elven race because, again, if Merrill had been more humble and patient she could have done both.

It's not a matter of arrogance. I wholeheartedly believe that Merrill was correct, and that she's no more arrogant than, say, Varric or Fenris. Her succeeding in fixing the Eluvian would have been of the greatest help to the elven race as a whole, and she did in fact succeed there; the only thing missing was how to reactivate it. Which could still be learned.

Merrill's work with that eluvian was more than just unpopular, it was also dangerous and unnecessary. Pursuing it at all was arrogant (especially alone), and doing so to the point of neglecting other duties was irresponsible as well.

Marethari wouldn't assist in working on the thing (and I suspect Audacity had something to do with that, as Marethari is far more prideful than Merrill), and she's still fulfilling her duty.

Look, I don't doubt that Merrill had good intentions or worthy goals, I don't even doubt that she was essentially a good person at her core (if you look deep enough). But it's like Katie Holmes said in Batman: "It's not who you are underneath but what you do that defines you." And, it's by that measure Merrill comes up ridiculously short.

What she did was heroic in scope. The results were suboptimal, but you can only control your actions, not their outcomes.