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[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

So finding out how to build teleportation devices wouldn't be useful?

I think you misunderstand.  It's not that a working eluvian wouldn't be valuable (although it might well not be if it doesn't connect to anything, and if it opens the door for demons it might be a bane), instead it's that the eluvian project only has the possibility of potential value in the future, while Merrill has potential value in the present.  

There's also the little idea that Merrill is so special, so important, so wonderful that all the lost treasures of Arlathan would be nothing more than a handful of paltry trinkets compared to her.  But hey, maybe you just don't see her that way.  And that's fine.  Diff'rent strokes and all that.

It's not a matter of arrogance. I wholeheartedly believe that Merrill was correct, and that she's no more arrogant than, say, Varric or Fenris. Her succeeding in fixing the Eluvian would have been of the greatest help to the elven race as a whole, and she did in fact succeed there; the only thing missing was how to reactivate it. Which could still be learned.

First off, if you're looking for a person of all around respectable character, the gaggle of weirdoes that gloms onto Hawke might not be the best place to start.  Also, whatever degree of success Merrill may have eventually had with her eluvian it doesn't change that she could have both fulfilled her responsibilities to her Clan and pursued her eluvian project, but she just chose not to.

Marethari wouldn't assist in working on the thing (and I suspect Audacity had something to do with that, as Marethari is far more prideful than Merrill), and she's still fulfilling her duty.

If Merrill could not, for whatever reason, pursue her eluvian project, then she should have shelved it until she could.  

What she did was heroic in scope. The results were suboptimal, but you can only control your actions, not their outcomes.

Merrill's goals may have been heroic is scope, but what she did to and while pursuing them that's contemptible.  If Merrill had ultimately succeded in recreating some sort of eluvian network, that may well have been her saving grace.  But, alas that was not to be either.  And before long, all Merrill was, was another deranged bloodmage with a pie-in-the-sky pet project.  Not exactly rare in Kirkwall.

Also, speaking as a man of science, I assure you; (Murphy notwithstanding) one can infact control outcomes to one degree or another.  It's the actions of others that are what is truly beyond our ultimate control.

[TEWR]

General User wrote...

Also, whatever degree of success Merrill may have eventually had with her eluvian it doesn't change that she could have both fulfilled her responsibilities to her Clan and pursued her eluvian project, but she just chose not to.

Kinda hard to work on an Eluvian and be First to a clan considering:

1) Merrill went to Marethari first to ask for help, having tried to do what you said she should've done. Marethari refused to help, because of fear. This prompted Merrill to learn blood magic so she could amplify the healing magic she already knew -- per DAO -- that managed to combat the Taint in Mahariel temporarily -- again, per DAO.

which then led to...

2) The clan began to hate her. Not as much as happened in the later acts, but they did begin to distrust/hate her simply for what she had done -- which was seek out an alternative method when she couldn't rely on her mentor and mother figure and had no lyrium to work with. Remember the Elven Hunter you encounter on the way up the mountain was very hostile towards her.

General User wrote...

If Merrill could not, for whatever reason, pursue her eluvian project, then she should have shelved it until she could.

The problem is that it was tainted -- and the only one her clan had ever come into contact with. She needed to cleanse it before she could work on it. I suspect that she placed it in some sort of container and used her healing magic in some alternate form as a sort-of protective ward so the Taint wouldn't spread.

Per DAO however, the Keeper's unamplified magic that both Marethari and Merrill knew wouldn't work forever, and would gradually diminish in effectiveness. So she needed to cleanse the thing immediately, lest it attract Darkspawn/taint the Elves of the clan.

So she approached Marethari for assistance. Marethari outright refused to do such a thing. With no lyrium and no assistance from her mentor, she was left with only one alternative: blood magic. So she learned it from the trapped Demon on the mountain and cleansed the shard of its corruption.

When she relayed what she had done and how she had done it to Marethari, this caused a great level of hostility to arise towards her. Despite Merrill having done what needed to be done when Marethari refused to aid her through a safer course of action, she was being treated with disdain/distrust/whatever.

And Marethari was still refusing to research the Eluvians at that point. Not because of the predicament the Elves were in, but because Marethari fervently and erroneously believed they were"evil and meant to be forgotten" simply because the Taint is what killed Tamlen and potentially Mahariel.

[General User]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

General User wrote...

Also, whatever degree of success Merrill may have eventually had with her eluvian it doesn't change that she could have both fulfilled her responsibilities to her Clan and pursued her eluvian project, but she just chose not to.

Kinda hard to work on an Eluvian and be First to a clan considering:

1) Merrill went to Marethari first to ask for help, having tried to do what you said she should've done. Marethari refused to help, because of fear. This prompted Merrill to learn blood magic so she could amplify the healing magic she already knew -- per DAO -- that managed to combat the Taint in Mahariel temporarily -- again, per DAO.

which then led to...

2) The clan began to hate her. Not as much as happened in the later acts, but they did begin to distrust/hate her simply for what she had done -- which was seek out an alternative method when she couldn't rely on her mentor and mother figure and had no lyrium to work with. Remember the Elven Hunter you encounter on the way up the mountain was very hostile towards her.

General User wrote...

If Merrill could not, for whatever reason, pursue her eluvian project, then she should have shelved it until she could.

The problem is that it was tainted -- and the only one her clan had ever come into contact with. She needed to cleanse it before she could work on it. I suspect that she placed it in some sort of container and used her healing magic in some alternate form as a sort-of protective ward so the Taint wouldn't spread.

Per DAO however, the Keeper's unamplified magic that both Marethari and Merrill knew wouldn't work forever, and would gradually diminish in effectiveness. So she needed to cleanse the thing immediately, lest it attract Darkspawn/taint the Elves of the clan.

So she approached Marethari for assistance. Marethari outright refused to do such a thing. With no lyrium and no assistance from her mentor, she was left with only one alternative: blood magic. So she learned it from the trapped Demon on the mountain and cleansed the shard of its corruption.

When she relayed what she had done and how she had done it to Marethari, this caused a great level of hostility to arise towards her. Despite Merrill having done what needed to be done when Marethari refused to aid her through a safer course of action, she was being treated with disdain/distrust/whatever.

And Marethari was still refusing to research the Eluvians at that point. Not because of the predicament the Elves were in, but because Marethari fervently and erroneously believed they were"evil and meant to be forgotten" simply because the Taint is what killed Tamlen and potentially Mahariel.

Between working on an eluvian and being a First, the latter was far and away Merrill's primary responsibility.  The former was, at the very best, merely a line of research in keeping with Dalish ideology.  

Also, if Merrill really and truly believed in her  project, she should have been willing to wait a few decades until she was a Keeper herself and could responsibly and appropriately make such decisions.  The fact that Merrill wasn't willing to put away her eluvian at all, and was actually willing to leave her people for it during a very dark time, indicates quite clearly that whatever her intentions may have been, she had become dangerously obsessed.

At no point whatsoever was there any drive or imperative to research eluvians other than Merrill's personal opinion that doing so would be a good idea, an opinion she was alone in having.  Depending on where you look on the timeline, Merrill could have thrown her shard away, burned it with fire, or stuck in the back of a box for a decade or three and everyone would have been the better off for it.

[TEWR]

General User wrote...

Between working on an eluvian and being a First, the latter was far and away Merrill's primary responsibility. The former was, at the very best, merely a line of research in keeping with Dalish ideology.

Also, if Merrill really and truly believed in her project, she should have been willing to wait a few decades until she was a Keeper herself and could responsibly and appropriately make such decisions. The fact that Merrill wasn't willing to put away her eluvian at all, and was actually willing to leave her people for it during a very dark time, indicates quite clearly that whatever her intentions may have been, she had become dangerously obsessed.

I won't deny she was obsessed -- for good or ill is opinion, but she does break the obsession if romanced on either path, for different reasons -- but I think her leaving the clan was not only necessary, but a good thing.

For these reasons

1) Even had she put the shard away temporarily after cleansing it, she wouldn't have been able to really devote herself to researching it even if she became Keeper. Keepers don't have complete authority over the clan, and there's nothing to guarantee the clan wouldn't have gotten rid of it behind Merrill's back. Or that Marethari wouldn't have tried it either.

2) She is quite clearly broken up about leaving the clan. If you look at her eyes, they're filled with despair and she looks like she's close to breaking down in tears.

3) She found out who she was in Kirkwall. She's led an extremely sheltered life, even amongst the Dalish. For all her life, she's studied Dalish lore/history/culture/magic. Ever since she was a child of 4 years, that's all her life's been. So her obsession with the Eluvian is something she was brought up with by Marethari herself. Marethari made Merrill what you're chiding her for. But in Kirkwall, she discovers who she was really meant to be -- a philosophical query she'll pose to Marethari when the latter tells Merrill the Eluvian is twisting her away from who she really is.

I find the last one to be the most important reason of all, and can't really berate her for doing something that in the end helped her discover who she is.

[dragonflight288]

And I would like to add something about firsts.

Lanaya mentions that she had to compete against several other members of the clan to be considered to be Zathrian's first. We know the Keepers and the Firsts are always mages, so that means that there are more than two mages in a clan. There are always at least two, but there can easily be more.

We know from Fenyriel's and Zevran's mother that Dalish can leave the clans, if they so choose. No one would stop Merrill from leaving the clan, which she did.

Now, since we know there are likely more than Merethari and Merrill as mages in the clan (and even if there isn't, mages are shuffled from clan to clan as needed, along with other members of the clans to prevent inbreeding) so a First is easily replaceable. Would take a lot of time and effort to get the new First to catch up to where Merrill was, but it can be done.

Why then, would Merrill be responsible for anything bad that may have happened to her clan, based on the clan's and the Keeper's own decisions? They are adults, they can choose for themselves. Why does Merrill take the blame for their choices?

[General User]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I won't deny she was obsessed -- for good or ill is opinion, but she does break the obsession if romanced on either path, for different reasons -- but I think her leaving the clan was not only necessary, but a good thing.

For these reasons

1) Even had she put the shard away temporarily after cleansing it, she wouldn't have been able to really devote herself to researching it even if she became Keeper. Keepers don't have complete authority over the clan, and there's nothing to guarantee the clan wouldn't have gotten rid of it behind Merrill's back. Or that Marethari wouldn't have tried it either.

2) She is quite clearly broken up about leaving the clan. If you look at her eyes, they're filled with despair and she looks like she's close to breaking down in tears.

3) She found out who she was in Kirkwall. She's led an extremely sheltered life, even amongst the Dalish. For all her life, she's studied Dalish lore/history/culture/magic. Ever since she was a child of 4 years, that's all her life's been. So her obsession with the Eluvian is something she was brought up with by Marethari herself. Marethari made Merrill what you're chiding her for. But in Kirkwall, she discovers who she was really meant to be -- a philosophical query she'll pose to Marethari when the latter tells Merrill the Eluvian is twisting her away from who she really is.

I find the last one to be the most important reason of all, and can't really berate her for doing something that in the end helped her discover who she is.

I appreciate the sentiment Mr. Kerouac.  But if the only way for Merrill to "discover who she is" was to do what she did, then everyone would have been better off without that particular discovery, Merrill included.

dragonflight288 wrote...

And I would like to add something about firsts.

Lanaya mentions that she had to compete against several other members of the clan to be considered to be Zathrian's first. We know the Keepers and the Firsts are always mages, so that means that there are more than two mages in a clan. There are always at least two, but there can easily be more.

We know from Fenyriel's and Zevran's mother that Dalish can leave the clans, if they so choose. No one would stop Merrill from leaving the clan, which she did.

Now, since we know there are likely more than Merethari and Merrill as mages in the clan (and even if there isn't, mages are shuffled from clan to clan as needed, along with other members of the clans to prevent inbreeding) so a First is easily replaceable. Would take a lot of time and effort to get the new First to catch up to where Merrill was, but it can be done.

Is that really how you see Merrill?  As some replaceable little component who can be shuffled off when she's no longer a good fit?

dragonflight288 wrote...

Why then, would Merrill be responsible for anything bad that may have happened to her clan, based on the clan's and the Keeper's own decisions? They are adults, they can choose for themselves. Why does Merrill take the blame for their choices?

Merrill certainly doesn't need to take the blame for the choices of her Clan.  Her own choices are damning enough all on their own.  It's not that she's responsible for anything bad that may or may not happen to her Clan, but rather that she's responsible for not being there to help when bad things do happen.

Modifié par General User, 17 août 2012 - 01:03 .

[dragonflight288]

Is that really how you see Merrill? As some replaceable little component who can be shuffled off when she's no longer a good fit?

Heck no. But I do see her as a person, who willingly chose to leave her clan, probably never return to it (if they left the area within the seven years, which they should've) to pursue a research project an ancient elven technology. She could easily have joined up with another clan, or something. But Merrill did choose of her own accord to leave, and most of her clan couldn't wait to see her gone. Merethari's and the clans problems could easily have been solved by acknowledging that.

Merrill certainly doesn't need to take the blame for the choices of her Clan. Her own choices are damning enough all on their own. It's not that she's responsible for anything bad that may or may not happen to her Clan, but rather that she's responsible for not being there to help when bad things do happen.

So by that logic, we can blame Zevran's mother for the bad things that happened to her clan by virtue of leaving them to be with a human, who later abandoned her, leaving her in a ****house. Or Fenriel's mother for all the bad things that happened by virtue of not being there for her own clan.

Or even the City Elf's Warden for the purge and everything that happened to the alienage after joining the Wardens.

The way I see it, the clan made their own choices, and those choices had consequences. They chose to stay in an area where the templars are located in strength, they chose to stay near a city full of humans, and most humans are racist against elves already.

And Merethari, as Keeper, chose to keep the clan in an area where she knew a demon was. She knew the demon could influence them (see the Merrill short story.)

The Dalish are also responsible for their reluctance to accept any help. Take Master Ilen, the crafter. He is personally offended that Hawke may offer to do something that the hunters couldn't. It was so offensive to have a human offer to help that he almost refused to even consider it.

With that kind of attitude, it shouldn't be a surprise if the Dalish sow a lot of seeds of resentment in addition to the prejudice.

But their arrogance and self-righteousness does have its moments.

Hawke: I left my pointy ears and self-righteousness at home.
Hunter: You...shemlen!

[Xilizhra]

There's also the little idea that Merrill is so special, so important, so wonderful that all the lost treasures of Arlathan would be nothing more than a handful of paltry trinkets compared to her. But hey, maybe you just don't see her that way. And that's fine. Diff'rent strokes and all that.

This is extraordinarily disingenuous. The clan doesn't see her this way. I do and I aim to keep her safe by whatever means are possible, but I won't destroy her spirit just to save her life (I will instead keep both intact).

[General User]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Heck no. But I do see her as a person, who willingly chose to leave her clan, probably never return to it (if they left the area within the seven years, which they should've) to pursue a research project an ancient elven technology. She could easily have joined up with another clan, or something. But Merrill did choose of her own accord to leave, and most of her clan couldn't wait to see her gone. Merethari's and the clans problems could easily have been solved by acknowledging that.

Choosing to leave was the wrong decision and Merrill was wrong to make it.

dragonflight288 wrote...

So by that logic, we can blame Zevran's mother for the bad things that happened to her clan by virtue of leaving them to be with a human, who later abandoned her, leaving her in a ****house. Or Fenriel's mother for all the bad things that happened by virtue of not being there for her own clan.

Or even the City Elf's Warden for the purge and everything that happened to the alienage after joining the Wardens.

The way I see it, the clan made their own choices, and those choices had consequences. They chose to stay in an area where the templars are located in strength, they chose to stay near a city full of humans, and most humans are racist against elves already.

I didn't think I was being unclear, when I said "It's not that [Merrill's] responsible for anything bad that may or may not happen to her Clan, but rather that she's responsible for not being there to help when bad things do happen", but let me see if I can clarify using the examples you cite.

Zevran's and Fenriel's mothers are responsible for marrying/ having children with humans in violation of Dalish custom.  Those were their decisions and, in the case of Zevran's mother at least, you can be pretty sure she eventually figured out that they the wrong ones.  And meanwhile, while those two women where off doing their own things, their Clans were deprived of whatever it was they did for the Clan, and for that they are responsible.

The city elf Warden was not responsible for the purge, but was to a large degree responsible for not begin there to help during said purge.   Of course, he was doing something far more important at the time.  So even if the city elf Warden could have done something to help the alienage, not doling so would still have been the right decision.

Xilizhra wrote...

This is extraordinarily disingenuous. The clan doesn't see her this way. I do and I aim to keep her safe by whatever means are possible, but I won't destroy her spirit just to save her life (I will instead keep both intact).

"Her spirit"!?!  Now that's disingenuous.  Merrill had an unhealthy obsession with that eluvian that before long became a poison in her life, holding her down and separating her from the people she cared about most, the very people she claimed to be trying to help. 

The only way to really help Merrill would have been to get her to turn her back on that eluvian and go back to her family.  Unfortunately for her, by the time she was ready to do the first it was too late to do the second. 

[Xilizhra]

"Her spirit"!?! Now that's disingenuous. Merrill had an unhealthy obsession with that eluvian that before long became a poison in her life, holding her down and separating her from the people she cared about most, the very people she claimed to be trying to help.

Hardly. Rivaling her is emotionally manipulative, egotistical and spirit-crushing, and as for rivalmancing her... let's say I would very much enjoy keeping the intestines of all Hawkes who do so strung around a tree in my yard. It's the in-game decision I hate second most, and I question Bioware's decision to let Hawke be a severely emotionally abusive partner in two relationships.

And it was Marethari who separated her, not her work.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

"Her spirit"!?! Now that's disingenuous. Merrill had an unhealthy obsession with that eluvian that before long became a poison in her life, holding her down and separating her from the people she cared about most, the very people she claimed to be trying to help.

Hardly. Rivaling her is emotionally manipulative, egotistical and spirit-crushing, and as for rivalmancing her... let's say I would very much enjoy keeping the intestines of all Hawkes who do so strung around a tree in my yard. It's the in-game decision I hate second most, and I question Bioware's decision to let Hawke be a severely emotionally abusive partner in two relationships.

And it was Marethari who separated her, not her work.

Since I've never done any of DAII's "rivalmances" I really can't speak to what any of them do or do not entail. 

Now, anyone who thinks Marethari or the rest of the Clan could have handled their "Merrill issue" bit better is welcome to that opinion, especially since it's essentially correct.  But the truth remains, it was Merrill who turned her back on her people (long before she left them physically) because she had become unhealthily obsessed with a pet project.

[Xilizhra]

It isn't the truth. She never turned her back on her people, only tried to help them in an unpopular way. And Marethari was responsible for far more. I'm not sure if she deliberately tried to get Merrill killed, although I'm far from ruling the possibility out, but she definitely broke the deal that Merrill fulfilled thereafter. And then definitely did try to kill her in Act 3, or at least allowed herself to be possessed to do so. I'm fairly sure that she was possessed even before Merrill and Hawke showed up for A New Path; there's absolutely no way she could have made it to Pride's End before them if she wasn't.

Also, by parsing your previous statement, the implication is that I'm not welcome to my own opinion about Merrill not turning her back on her people. I shall note this.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 17 août 2012 - 02:45 .

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

It isn't the truth. She never turned her back on her people, only tried to help them in an unpopular way.

Merrill absolutely turned her back on her people.  First metaphorically by pursuing her eluvian project instead of helping her Clan with their problems, then physically by turning around and going to Kirkwall.

Xilizhra wrote...

And Marethari was responsible for far more. I'm not sure if she deliberately tried to get Merrill killed, although I'm far from ruling the possibility out, but she definitely broke the deal that Merrill fulfilled thereafter. And then definitely did try to kill her in Act 3, or at least allowed herself to be possessed to do so. I'm fairly sure that she was possessed even before Merrill and Hawke showed up for A New Path; there's absolutely no way she could have made it to Pride's End before them if she wasn't.

People enjoy conspiracy theories because they make so that one does not have to confront more obvious, but less palatable, truths.

Xilizhra wrote...

Also, by parsing your previous statement, the implication is that I'm not welcome to my own opinion about Merrill not turning her back on her people. I shall note this.

You don't need to to parse my statements looking for nonexistent hidden meanings.  If you'd like me to clarify or elaborate on any given point, just say so.  So to clarify: You're welcome to your opinion.  Your opinion is wrong; but you're welcome to it.

Modifié par General User, 17 août 2012 - 03:10 .

[Xilizhra]

Merrill absolutely turned her back on her people. First metaphorically by pursuing her eluvian project instead of helping her Clan with their problems, then physically by turning around and going to Kirkwall.

They wanted her gone, and her only goal was to help them to begin with. Which may have worked better without Marethari.

People enjoy conspiracy theories because they make so that one does not have to confront more obvious, but less palatable, truths.

And some people take the word of a murderous abomination at face value. For whatever reason.

You don't need to to parse my statements looking for nonexistent hidden meanings. If you'd like me to clarify or elaborate on any given point, just say so. So to clarify: You're welcome to your opinion. Your opinion is wrong; but you're welcome to it.

And your opinion is wronger.

[Wulfram]

I don't think Merrill would believe she could do much to help her people except by pursuing the eluvian project. She certainly believes she'd be a terrible Keeper.

Merrill suffers from a lack of Pride as well as an excess of it.

Modifié par Wulfram, 17 août 2012 - 03:30 .

[coldSnap]

Ultimately there is fault on both sides. Merrill for not adhering to others' advice, the clan for being narrowminded.

[SeptimusMagistos]

I find the implication that Merrill had a responsibility to cater to her clan's fears disturbing.

Merrill tried to work on the Eluvian and solve her clan's problems. They rejected her. They were the ones who looked on their first, the person who would do anything to help them, the person who wouldn't hurt a fly, and told her they didn't want her help. They told her that if she wanted them to condescend to accepting what she freely gave them she'd have to give up her research because they didn't like it. If you blame Merrill for choosing the Eluvian over her position as the First then I find your opinion strange since I would have done the same thing.

Merrill oves it to her clan to help them. What she doesn't owe to them is to confine her research only to things they find acceptable. I don't blame her for choosing to leave them to continue helping them in her own way since the only reason she had to choose in the first place is because they made her.

Where her own clan rejected Merrill, I embraced her. Where they jeered her I encouraged her. I told Merrill that it was right for her to choose her own path. I told her that as long as she was pursuing her research in a safe, responsible manner I had no problem with it and that anyone who did was a jerk. I deeply regretted my inability to tell her clan they were being a bunch of paranoid cooks. For Maker's sake, they were afraid of Merrill. Merrill, who earned the nicknames 'Daisy' and 'Kitten'! Should she have given up her goals to fit with their prejudices? I think not.

When Merrill realized that her Keeper had been a stupid old woman who chose to die rather than trust her student and that her clan was a bunch of idiots who were on the verge of attacking someone who had never done anything to harm them, it was sad. It was sad but it was necessary. Because Merrill was right, they were wrong, and while she might have owed them her loyalty, she didn't owe it to them to say she was wrong when she was right. And after that day, she owed them absolutely nothing.

Make no mistake, nothing that happened between Merrill and her clan was her fault. The only way she could have prevented it would have been to submit to the prejudices of her clan and to let their paranoia keep her from pursuing her dreams. Maybe it was because I was raised on Disney cartoons, but I say nay! Merrill did what was right for her and what was right for the Dalish. If her clan had just cooperated, we'd have had the Eluvian working by Act 3.

[General User]

Wulfram wrote...

I don't think Merrill would believe she could do much to help her people except by pursuing the eluvian project. She certainly believes she'd be a terrible Keeper.

Merrill suffers from a lack of Pride as well as an excess of it.

I think you're right.  Merrill's assigns so much value to her eluvian project yet remains seemingly oblivious to or dismissive of how much good she could do for her people in other ways.  I'd say that goes back to humility.  If Merrill had humbly accepted that her eluvian project was a bad idea she might have been able to discover just how much she had to contribute apart from it.

Modifié par General User, 17 août 2012 - 03:50 .

[Xilizhra]

I think you're right. Merrill's assigns so much value to her eluvian project yet remains seemingly oblivious to how much good she could do for her people in other ways. I'd say that goes back to humility. If Merrill had humbly accepted that her eluvian project was a bad idea she might have been able to discover just how much she had to contribute apart from it.

Irrelevant. Merrill's success here would do the most good, and it was a good idea from the beginning. It didn't totally succeed, but that doesn't change the value of the idea itself.

[SeptimusMagistos]

General User wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

I don't think Merrill would believe she could do much to help her people except by pursuing the eluvian project. She certainly believes she'd be a terrible Keeper.

Merrill suffers from a lack of Pride as well as an excess of it.

I think you're right.  Merrill's assigns so much value to her eluvian project yet remains seemingly oblivious to how much good she could do for her people in other ways.  I'd say that goes back to humility.  If Merrill had humbly accepted that her eluvian project was a bad idea she might have been able to discover just how much she had to contribute apart from it.

Or alternatively if the others had humbly accepted it was a good idea, she could have done both.

It's a two-way street and Merrill's the one who actually knows what she's talking about.

[General User]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

General User wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

I don't think Merrill would believe she could do much to help her people except by pursuing the eluvian project. She certainly believes she'd be a terrible Keeper.

Merrill suffers from a lack of Pride as well as an excess of it.

I think you're right.  Merrill's assigns so much value to her eluvian project yet remains seemingly oblivious to how much good she could do for her people in other ways.  I'd say that goes back to humility.  If Merrill had humbly accepted that her eluvian project was a bad idea she might have been able to discover just how much she had to contribute apart from it.

Or alternatively if the others had humbly accepted it was a good idea, she could have done both.

It's a two-way street and Merrill's the one who actually knows what she's talking about.

Like the great Dalish leader John F. Kennedy once said, "Ask not what your Clan can do for you, ask what you can do for your Clan."

You see, the difference is the Merrill has an obligation to her attend to her Clan's needs even if doing means subverting or delaying her own desires and/or opinions, while the rest of the Clan has no obligation to cater or conform to her.

Modifié par General User, 17 août 2012 - 04:21 .

[Xilizhra]

You see, the difference is the Merrill has an obligation to her attend to her Clan's needs even if doing means subverting or delaying her own desires and/or opinions, while the rest of the Clan has no obligation to cater or conform to her.

And so she did. And while you might say that the clan didn't have an obligation, it would have made their lives a lot easier (and, if you tell them the truth at the end of A New Path, longer as well).

[SeptimusMagistos]

General User wrote...

You see, the difference is the Merrill has an obligation to her attend to her Clan's needs even if doing means subverting or delaying her own desires and/or opinions, while the rest of the Clan has no obligation to cater or conform to her.

That's a horrible philosophy and I'm glad Merrill didn't choose to follow it. She has no obligation to subvert her opinions for the sake of her clan. She does have an obligation to help them, but not to change herself until they're willing to accept the help offered. Do you see that distinction?

[General User]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

General User wrote...

You see, the difference is the Merrill has an obligation to her attend to her Clan's needs even if doing means subverting or delaying her own desires and/or opinions, while the rest of the Clan has no obligation to cater or conform to her.

That's a horrible philosophy and I'm glad Merrill didn't choose to follow it. She has no obligation to subvert her opinions for the sake of her clan.

She did if she wanted to be a productive and useful member of that Clan.  But that's just it, isn't it?  Merrill didn't want to be a member of her Clan near as much as she wanted to pursue her eluvian project. 

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

She does have an obligation to help them, but not to change herself until they're willing to accept the help offered. Do you see that distinction?

Merrill did indeed have an obligation to her Clan.  And she dismissed and rejected that obligation in order to keep working on her eluvian. 

Modifié par General User, 17 août 2012 - 05:28 .

[Xilizhra]

She fulfilled it by working on the Eluvian.