407 réponses à ce sujet

[SeptimusMagistos]

General User wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

General User wrote...

You see, the difference is the Merrill has an obligation to her attend to her Clan's needs even if doing means subverting or delaying her own desires and/or opinions, while the rest of the Clan has no obligation to cater or conform to her.

That's a horrible philosophy and I'm glad Merrill didn't choose to follow it. She has no obligation to subvert her opinions for the sake of her clan.

She did if she wanted to be a productive and useful member of that Clan.  But that's just it, isn't it?  Merrill didn't want to be a member of her Clan near as much as she wanted to pursue her eluvian project. 

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

She does have an obligation to help them, but not to change herself until they're willing to accept the help offered. Do you see that distinction?

Merrill did indeed have an obligation to her Clan.  And she dismissed and rejected that obligation in order to keep working on her eluvian. 

I really think you're twisting an obligation to help the members of her clan into an obligation to be their slave. The clan is like one very big family. Merrill is ready to help them whenever they need it, but if they insist she shouldn't pursue her studies and should just stay inside the family home and do what the others tell her to, she has no obligation to do that. Because - and this is key - loving someone doesn't mean you have to do whatever they want.

The way you describing it, if the clan isn't willing to meet Merrill halfway or even take one step from its position she should just give up her views and do whatever she's told. That's not how anything works.

[EricHVela]

Xilizhra wrote...

She fulfilled it by working on the Eluvian.

In her mind, yes, and that counts for a lot.

From what I could tell, she truly believed she would be helping her people. She made great sacrifices to do it, though it ended up costing her a lot more than she was willing to pay.

It doesn't completely discount the fact that she did not help the Elven in the end, but she was not evil or crazy -- only a little blind as Flemeth suggested.

[Xilizhra]

ReggarBlane wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

She fulfilled it by working on the Eluvian.

In her mind, yes, and that counts for a lot.

From what I could tell, she truly believed she would be helping her people. She made great sacrifices to do it, though it ended up costing her a lot more than she was willing to pay.

It doesn't completely discount the fact that she did not help the Elven in the end, but she was not evil or crazy -- only a little blind as Flemeth suggested.

I believe future benefits could come of her work, and getting rid of Marethari is probably helpful in the long run.

[General User]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

General User wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

General User wrote...

You see, the difference is the Merrill has an obligation to her attend to her Clan's needs even if doing means subverting or delaying her own desires and/or opinions, while the rest of the Clan has no obligation to cater or conform to her.

That's a horrible philosophy and I'm glad Merrill didn't choose to follow it. She has no obligation to subvert her opinions for the sake of her clan.

She did if she wanted to be a productive and useful member of that Clan.  But that's just it, isn't it?  Merrill didn't want to be a member of her Clan near as much as she wanted to pursue her eluvian project. 

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

She does have an obligation to help them, but not to change herself until they're willing to accept the help offered. Do you see that distinction?

Merrill did indeed have an obligation to her Clan.  And she dismissed and rejected that obligation in order to keep working on her eluvian. 

I really think you're twisting an obligation to help the members of her clan into an obligation to be their slave. The clan is like one very big family. Merrill is ready to help them whenever they need it, but if they insist she shouldn't pursue her studies and should just stay inside the family home and do what the others tell her to, she has no obligation to do that. Because - and this is key - loving someone doesn't mean you have to do whatever they want.

The way you describing it, if the clan isn't willing to meet Merrill halfway or even take one step from its position she should just give up her views and do whatever she's told. That's not how anything works.

Under normal circumstances you'd be very close to correct.  But the circumstances Merrill's Clan was in weren't exactly normal, were they?  They were stranded in a foreign land and surrounded by enemies.  They were in a most precarious and dire situation.  It was a time for Merrill to at least set aside her little pet project and attend to the needs of those around her. 

If, after the crisis had passed, Merrill still felt that working on that eluvian was the right thing to do she could have left then to do so.  It would still have been a bad decision, but nowhere near as despicable as the one she made in the game.

[EricHVela]

Xilizhra wrote...

ReggarBlane wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

She fulfilled it by working on the Eluvian.

In her mind, yes, and that counts for a lot.

From what I could tell, she truly believed she would be helping her people. She made great sacrifices to do it, though it ended up costing her a lot more than she was willing to pay.

It doesn't completely discount the fact that she did not help the Elven in the end, but she was not evil or crazy -- only a little blind as Flemeth suggested.

I believe future benefits could come of her work, and getting rid of Marethari is probably helpful in the long run.

Possibly. I cannot ignore that. Yet, we simply do not know.

I definitely was too quick to say she didn't help her people. She might have, yet. Given Flemeth's warning, I favor that Merrill made a grave mistake. Merrill might still turn it around, though (especially since I think her eyes have been forced open -- what is necessary isn't always nice -- the final lesson from Marethari?).

[Xilizhra]

Under normal circumstances you'd be very close to correct. But the circumstances Merrill's Clan was in weren't exactly normal, were they? They were stranded in a foreign land and surrounded by enemies. They were in a most precarious and dire situation. It was a time for Merrill to at least set aside her little pet project and attend to the needs of those around her.

You make it sound far worse than the game shows it as. I'm not sure why.

[SeptimusMagistos]

General User wrote...
]Under normal circumstances you'd be very close to correct.  But the circumstances Merrill's Clan was in weren't exactly normal, were they?  They were stranded in a foreign land and surrounded by enemies.  They were in a most precarious and dire situation.  It was a time for Merrill to at least set aside her little pet project and attend to the needs of those around her. 

If, after the crisis had passed, Merrill still felt that working on that eluvian was the right thing to do she could have left then to do so.  It would still have been a bad decision, but nowhere near as despicable as the one she made in the game.

If they needed her help so badly, they could have had it at any time. Literally all they had to do was ask and then accept her, blood magic, Eluvian, and all.

But no, apparently as dire as their situation was, it wasn't quite dire enough to admit they were wrong. This is why Merrill's defining character moment is her realizing that you just can't help those who won't be helped and deciding to no longer live for the sake of her clan as she'd done all those years.

Modifié par SeptimusMagistos, 17 août 2012 - 06:27 .

[EricHVela]

Xilizhra wrote...

Under normal circumstances you'd be very close to correct. But the circumstances Merrill's Clan was in weren't exactly normal, were they? They were stranded in a foreign land and surrounded by enemies. They were in a most precarious and dire situation. It was a time for Merrill to at least set aside her little pet project and attend to the needs of those around her.

You make it sound far worse than the game shows it as. I'm not sure why.

It was a bit dire for her clan, but I think Xilizhra is right in that it's not that dire.

Even still, that situation can drive someone to focus on something they believe will help their people in their bad situation. As I mentioned, I think Merrill truly believed that she would help her people. In her mind, the Eluvian was a solution to their problem and not just some "pet project".

[General User]

ReggarBlane wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Under normal circumstances you'd be very close to correct. But the circumstances Merrill's Clan was in weren't exactly normal, were they? They were stranded in a foreign land and surrounded by enemies. They were in a most precarious and dire situation. It was a time for Merrill to at least set aside her little pet project and attend to the needs of those around her.

You make it sound far worse than the game shows it as. I'm not sure why.

It was a bit dire for her clan, but I think Xilizhra is right in that it's not that dire.

Even still, that situation can drive someone to focus on something they believe will help their people in their bad situation. As I mentioned, I think Merrill truly believed that she would help her people. In her mind, the Eluvian was a solution to their problem and not just some "pet project".

And I daresay that's was Merrill's problem, instead of looking at the eluvian as the pet project it was, something to be picked up or put down as conditions warranted, she saw it as the key to some grandiose elven revitalization.  She broke rules, took absurd and uneccessary risks, and even left her Clan during a very dark time for the sake of trying to fix that thing.  If she had been able to look at it as a pet project, she would have been far better off.  But she couldn't, she was obsessed.

Modifié par General User, 17 août 2012 - 07:02 .

[Xilizhra]

It could certainly been the beginning of a grand elven revitalization, had it been allowed to be. In any case, none of her risks were excessive.

[General User]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

General User wrote...
]Under normal circumstances you'd be very close to correct.  But the circumstances Merrill's Clan was in weren't exactly normal, were they?  They were stranded in a foreign land and surrounded by enemies.  They were in a most precarious and dire situation.  It was a time for Merrill to at least set aside her little pet project and attend to the needs of those around her. 

If, after the crisis had passed, Merrill still felt that working on that eluvian was the right thing to do she could have left then to do so.  It would still have been a bad decision, but nowhere near as despicable as the one she made in the game.

If they needed her help so badly, they could have had it at any time. Literally all they had to do was ask and then accept her, blood magic, Eluvian, and all.

The ironic thing is they may have been willing to do that, just not on Merrill's terms.  It's quite telling I think that as rightly opposed to Merrill's demon dealing and obsession as the rest of her Clan was, never did they move to forcefully remove and/or destroy the object of her obsession.  They certainly could have, there was nothing stopping them.

I think they all wanted the eluvian fixed, they wanted it studied.  But they wanted it done right, as part of the mature deliberations of established Keepers and Craftmasters, not as the magical equivlent of a banzai charge by a precocious yet impetuous First.

Modifié par General User, 17 août 2012 - 07:07 .

[Xilizhra]

The ironic thing is they may have been willing to do that, just not on Merrill's terms. It's quite telling I think that as rightly opposed to Merrill's demon dealing and obsession as the rest of her Clan was, never did they move to forcefully remove and/or destroy the object of her obsession. They certainly could have, there was nothing stopping them.

I think they wanted all wanted the eluvian fixed, they wanted it studied. But they wanted it done right, as part of the mature deliberations of established Keepers and Craftmasters, not as the magical equivlent of a banzai charge by a precocious yet impetuous First.

Wrong. At least by Act 2, they all hated the Eluvian itself, and Marethari outright said that she would never allowed it to be repaired regardless of circumstances. And the Eluvian was being built in Kirkwall; the Dalish would have to invade the place, and that could cause far more problems.

[EricHVela]

General User wrote...

ReggarBlane wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Under normal circumstances you'd be very close to correct. But the circumstances Merrill's Clan was in weren't exactly normal, were they? They were stranded in a foreign land and surrounded by enemies. They were in a most precarious and dire situation. It was a time for Merrill to at least set aside her little pet project and attend to the needs of those around her.

You make it sound far worse than the game shows it as. I'm not sure why.

It was a bit dire for her clan, but I think Xilizhra is right in that it's not that dire.

Even still, that situation can drive someone to focus on something they believe will help their people in their bad situation. As I mentioned, I think Merrill truly believed that she would help her people. In her mind, the Eluvian was a solution to their problem and not just some "pet project".

And I daresay that's was Merrill's problem, instead of looking at the eluvian as the pet project it was, something to be picked up or put down as conditions warranted, she saw at the it as the key to some grandiose elven revitalization.  She broke rules, took absurd and uneccessary risks, and even left her Clan during a very dark time for the sake of trying to fix that thing.  If she had been able to look at it as a pet project, she would have been far better off.  But she couldn't, she was obsessed.

Marethari took a great risk, too. An experienced Keeper abomination? Merrill might have been the better choice for an abomination as the clan would get to keep their Keeper and lose their "pariah" as they saw her. Marethari essentially left her clan for the sake of Merrill.

Marethari made the clan stay much longer than the clan wanted, much longer than most of them felt was safe.

Marethari put Merrill above herself, above the Keeper of her clan. Merrill didn't do that.

It would seem that Marethari believed in Merrill so much as to take such a huge risk with the entire clan.

Why is Merrill at fault for something (that she thought would help) where she attempted to shield her clan from any fallout from her actions when Marethari's actions guaranteed it?

[dragonflight288]

Had the eluvian worked and been activated, it wouldn't just benefit the clan, but all Dalish throughout Thedas. And the Dalish mission is the restoration of Arlathan, rediscovering old technologies so they could rebuild their culture (which the eluvian falls under, one clan even had an entire book about eluvians...they couldn't read it but they had it) and teaching the city elves about the lost ways. Merrill was doing more for those goals than Merethari ever did, or was shown doing.

Merrill was doing more to help the Dalish as a whole than the Clan that was just camping on Sundermount. Instead of looking at "what can I do for the clan and not what the clan can do for me," it is more appropriate to say Merrill was actually thinking "What can I do for the Dalish people."

[Xilizhra]

Marethari put Merrill above herself, above the Keeper of her clan. Merrill didn't do that.

It would seem that Marethari believed in Merrill so much as to take such a huge risk with the entire clan.

Actually, I very much doubt this. I suspect Marethari was staying because Audacity had lured her in, and she wanted to ensure that she saw Merrill fail to fulfill her own pride.

[SeptimusMagistos]

General User wrote...
The ironic thing is they may have been willing to do that, just not on Merrill's terms.  It's quite telling I think that as rightly opposed to Merrill's demon dealing and obsession as the rest of her Clan was, never did they move to forcefully remove and/or destroy the object of her obsession.  They certainly could have, there was nothing stopping them.

I think they all wanted the eluvian fixed, they wanted it studied.  But they wanted it done right, as part of the mature deliberations of established Keepers and Craftmasters, not as the magical equivlent of a banzai charge by a precocious yet impetuous First.

Yes. Because I'm sure Merrill would have resorted to talking to a demon and using blood magic if she could have just passed the shard onto a collection of Keepers.

I find your conjecture to be lacking.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

The ironic thing is they may have been willing to do that, just not on Merrill's terms. It's quite telling I think that as rightly opposed to Merrill's demon dealing and obsession as the rest of her Clan was, never did they move to forcefully remove and/or destroy the object of her obsession. They certainly could have, there was nothing stopping them.

I think they wanted all wanted the eluvian fixed, they wanted it studied. But they wanted it done right, as part of the mature deliberations of established Keepers and Craftmasters, not as the magical equivlent of a banzai charge by a precocious yet impetuous First.

Wrong. At least by Act 2, they all hated the Eluvian itself, and Marethari outright said that she would never allowed it to be repaired regardless of circumstances. And the Eluvian was being built in Kirkwall; the Dalish would have to invade the place, and that could cause far more problems.

I said they wanted it fixed.  But, like the great Orlesian bards Mick Jagger and Keith Richards once wrote, you can't always get what you want.  Merrill's clan would have been thrilled to see that eluvian working, but their Keeper, with the concent of the rest of the Clan's elders, said that trying to do so would be a bad idea.  For most of them, that was enough.  It should have been enough for Merrill too.  Unfortunately for all involved, it was not.

[Xilizhra]

General User wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The ironic thing is they may have been willing to do that, just not on Merrill's terms. It's quite telling I think that as rightly opposed to Merrill's demon dealing and obsession as the rest of her Clan was, never did they move to forcefully remove and/or destroy the object of her obsession. They certainly could have, there was nothing stopping them.

I think they wanted all wanted the eluvian fixed, they wanted it studied. But they wanted it done right, as part of the mature deliberations of established Keepers and Craftmasters, not as the magical equivlent of a banzai charge by a precocious yet impetuous First.

Wrong. At least by Act 2, they all hated the Eluvian itself, and Marethari outright said that she would never allowed it to be repaired regardless of circumstances. And the Eluvian was being built in Kirkwall; the Dalish would have to invade the place, and that could cause far more problems.

I said they wanted it fixed.  But, like the great Orlesian bards Mick Jagger and Keith Richards once wrote, you can't always get what you want.  Merrill's clan would have been thrilled to see that eluvian working, but their Keeper, with the concent of the rest of the Clan's elders, said that trying to do so would be a bad idea.  For most of them, that was enough.  It should have been enough for Merrill too.  Unfortunately for all involved, it was not.

Unfortunately for them all, Marethari got enthralled by a pride demon and drove the entire clan into the ground, getting herself and potentially everyone else killed.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

General User wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The ironic thing is they may have been willing to do that, just not on Merrill's terms. It's quite telling I think that as rightly opposed to Merrill's demon dealing and obsession as the rest of her Clan was, never did they move to forcefully remove and/or destroy the object of her obsession. They certainly could have, there was nothing stopping them.

I think they wanted all wanted the eluvian fixed, they wanted it studied. But they wanted it done right, as part of the mature deliberations of established Keepers and Craftmasters, not as the magical equivlent of a banzai charge by a precocious yet impetuous First.

Wrong. At least by Act 2, they all hated the Eluvian itself, and Marethari outright said that she would never allowed it to be repaired regardless of circumstances. And the Eluvian was being built in Kirkwall; the Dalish would have to invade the place, and that could cause far more problems.

I said they wanted it fixed.  But, like the great Orlesian bards Mick Jagger and Keith Richards once wrote, you can't always get what you want.  Merrill's clan would have been thrilled to see that eluvian working, but their Keeper, with the concent of the rest of the Clan's elders, said that trying to do so would be a bad idea.  For most of them, that was enough.  It should have been enough for Merrill too.  Unfortunately for all involved, it was not.

Unfortunately for them all, Marethari got enthralled by a pride demon and drove the entire clan into the ground, getting herself and potentially everyone else killed.

That was unfortunate.  All the moreso since all while that was happening, one of the few mages capable enough to do something about it was off in Kirkwall doing freelance mercenary work and tinkering with some old relic, instead of being with her people where she belonged.

[Xilizhra]

She couldn't have accomplished anything while there; Marethari turned everyone against her. Things probably just would have come to violence far sooner. And she wasn't powerful enough to deal with it alone, she needed Hawke's aid (not that there's any shame in that; Audacity was an ancient and mighty demon).

[TEWR]

General User wrote...

Merrill absolutely turned her back on her people.  First metaphorically by pursuing her eluvian project instead of helping her Clan with their problems, then physically by turning around and going to Kirkwall.

There really wasn't much she could've done to help them, aside from the obvious suggestions that really didn't require her to be there:

Move the Aravels the **** away from Sundermount, manually if need be a few feet at a time. From what I can tell about the Sundermount area, it has a disturbing lack of halla. The only halla that Hawke (possibly) sees anywhere happens to be eaten by a Wyvern in MotA.

And considering that same area also displays the Sabrae clan's heraldry, it should be a place they moved to long ago.

As was said earlier, Merrill believes she'd have been a terrible Keeper if she stayed. The funny thing is -- and this goes back to what I said earlier -- that she'd be a terrific Keeper by Act 3, if she didn't have the entire clan hating her due to Marethari's slander and treachery.

General User wrote...

You see, the difference is the Merrill has an obligation to her attend to her Clan's needs even if doing means subverting or delaying her own desires and/or opinions, while the rest of the Clan has no obligation to cater or conform to her.

I'm not so certain her duty was to help the clan out of their predicament. I believe that falls more on the shoulders of the Keeper. The First is only supposed to learn the ways of being a Keeper, but they don't have any authority within the clan until they become Keeper. At most, she'd just be a pillar of support, but that'd be if she had more interactions with them..

But it's made clear by Merrill that even among the Clan, she had very, very few real friends. She was friendly with the Clan, but her only friends were Mahariel, (maybe) Fenarel pre-Act 2, and maybe Tamlen. She's studied Dalish lore/history/mythos/culture/magic her whole life that she barely had any time to socialize. She is, quite literally, an enigma to her own foster clan.

She really didn't have many friends within the Clan -- nor was she really given time to socialize much with the clan -- and thus any authority she would've had, Keeper or First, wasn't much. Any support she could've given would've been miniscule at best.

General User wrote...

I appreciate the sentiment Mr. Kerouac.  But if the only way for Merrill to "discover who she is" was to do what she did, then everyone would have been better off without that particular discovery, Merrill included.

I don't think anyone should be forced to continue living a sheltered life where they lack confidence, friends, or trust from their peers. If she was just some no-name Elf within the clan, that'd be one thing. I could say maybe she should've stayed then, even if I would've found the prospect of her continuing such a sheltered life horrible.

But as the First, if she doesn't have the abilities of a leader then she needs to find them. That's primarily what happens when she's in Kirkwall. More and more does she end up becoming terrific Keeper material, and she'd be able to be an astounding Keeper if only the clan didn't hate her so by Act 3's end -- due to Marethari's slander.

Besides, the clan has a few more Mages in it. By Act 3, the new First is an old Elven woman named Visell, but a few "deliver" quests have you giving items to Elves in Mage regalia. So I'd say the clan's First problem wasn't really a problem, or shouldn't have been -- though I'm led to believe that Marethari kept any other Mages from studying the ways of a Keeper, simply because she wanted Merrill back under her thumb.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 18 août 2012 - 05:34 .

[Reznore57]

The thing is well it's a clan.As part of a clan , I think any member who will go on a solitary crusade for something the clan don't approve , specialy because it's something that can be lethal , as to be segregated.

The dalish are only a few ...they rely a lot on each others , Merrill did favor the mirror over her clan , just like the Keeper favor her First .

I don't think Merrill is evil or crazy , but I do believe her obsession blinded her .
She didn't know much about the Eluvian , it was tainted , and it killed someone , she approach a demon to learn blood magic (again any mages approaching a demon run a risk to go abomination crazy , even if she knew what she was doing , the risk is still there ...if it did happen she could have wipe out her people).

And i don't think Merrill is "Keeper " material at all...
I mean she can be really clever ,she has a lot of qualities....
But she's freaking selfish , she thinks every thing is about her..."The Keeper didn't trust me , The clan abandonned me , I don't care if you don't believe in me...why didn't they listen to me..."

It's all about her , and she doesn't even understand that some in the clan do care for her , but as a clan they have to think as a group , not go along with one member lunacy.

[SeptimusMagistos]

Reznore57 wrote...

It's all about her , and she doesn't even understand that some in the clan do care for her , but as a clan they have to think as a group , not go along with one member lunacy.

See, the issue with that statement is that's the attitude of the villains in every story I grew up on.

So yeah, go Disney Princess Merrill.

[Reznore57]

You mean the clan are the villain?
Why , because they didn't support her in a project that could have kill them all....
It's not like she went looking for a pet griffon ...
She's willing to take risk about the eluvian , the clan is not.I think it's fair to tell her to go away if she wanted to pursue that.

It took her what?Ten years to repair it , use of blood magic , meeting two times a demon?
That's not like it was all a matter of glue and a bit of repair...She even aknowledges that there are risks , she thinks it's worth it ...it's her right.
The clan also have a right to think it's not worth it.End of the story.

[dragonflight288]

Why , because they didn't support her in a project that could have kill them all....

There is no evidence whatsoever that the mirror itself was dangerous. What was dangerous was the taint within it before Merrill cleansed it. Merethari outright states that the danger is Merrill bringing back the taint. It's been proven false. That removes all the danger Merethari and the clan feared. But they refused to listen.

It took her what?Ten years to repair it , use of blood magic , meeting two times a demon?

Thing is, Merrill wasn't repairing the eluvian. She was building an entire new one from scratch. She researched the dalish lore on them extensively, and studied the shard of another eluvian from the ruins in the Brecilian Forest. She didn't take the whole thing and every shard with her. Only a single pice. She extrapolated information from it, studied lore, and built a new one from scratch.

And considering how little lore is left from Arlathan, which is the time period the eluvians date back to, that she accomplished as much as she did within that time frame is miraculous.

And her use of blood magic? Well if she had lyrium, which the Chantry has a monopoly on the trade of, she wouldn't have needed to use blood magic. If Merethari aided her, there probably wouldn't have been any need for blood magic. But Merethari refused to aid her because she was terrified of the darkspawn taint, so much that she refused to even touch the lore or research the eluvian, and had next to no knowledge on them. In order to help the Dalish people by restoring an ancient elven artifact, blood magic literally became Merrill's last option.

And Merethari met with the demon just as many times as Merrill. They met it together the first time. Merrill went back and learned blood magic the second time, and Merethari went back and became possessed willingly her second time.  Difference between them was that Merethari kept herself in a position where the demon could influence her (as was seen in the Merrill short story, and got worse as they got closer to the demon itself,) whereas Merrill was further away, and further away from being influenced.

I have no doubt that Merethari cared for Merrill, but Merethari put Merrill above the clan. Merrill put the mission all Dalish claim to achieve above the clan.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 18 août 2012 - 03:54 .