407 respuestas en este tema

[jlb524]

TheAwesomologist wrote...

phyreblade74 wrote...
Ironically enough, since you posted this. I was struggling last night with wondering if I should take her friend or rival, just as I was preparing to head into the fade to save Feynrael. She was leaning to friend with me at that point, and I was tempted to follow along that path, just to see where it'd end up. And then she said, of Feynrael, "The Keeper will help this half-breed but not me?!" I was stunned, sitting there, thinking of how utterly selfish of her that was, how myopic a view it was. Rival it is, shrug.

I've romanced Merrill 3 times and always take her to the fade with me*, but I have yet to hear her utter that line. In fact when the little cut scene of Merethari walking around the alienage happens she never appears on screen. Sad. I was hoping for more interaction between Merrill and the Keeper.

She does indeed say that line before Marethari shows up.  it probably depends on your party composition if you hear it or not.

[loranna238]

jlb524 wrote...

Ah, I don't think blood magic or blood mages are inherently evil and I don't think Merrill is evil or everything that happened was part of an evil plan she cooked up in her Alienage home.

I think Merrill does have a nice, warm caring, heart and does sincerely want to do something to help her people and part of that is so they will finally accept her. It seems to me she has had issues with interpersonal relationships even amongst the Dalish and, as a result, has a pretty poor self-image in regards to her relationships with other people. She even says she would make a terrible Keeper, and these issues come up in other places like during the romance or when she compares herself to Isabela in one of their banters.

However, she's good at magic and knows a lot of history and this is the one source of her self-love and pride. It's not surprising that when she finally finds an opportunity to restore an ancient elven artifact using her knowledge of magic/history she goes all out, gets "tunnel vision" and obsesses over it. I'm assuming that finding any ancient elven artifact is quite rare, so I'm sure Merrill feels that this is a once in a life time chance to do something for her people in the only way that she could help her people (in her mind).

But you see, what to me at first looked like a caring heart more turned into that she wanted to be a savior. 

And her people did not want to be saved.  By setting herself apart from them and saying, "I will save you!" instead of working with them, by rejecting everything bad that happened and realizing that she should stop, it became more about her than about them.  She wanted them to love her, to be their savior.  But her actions didn't seem to indicate that she really loved them in return.  She set herself apart from them; the more she pushed to do this humungous great thing, the more damage she caused because the keeper wouldn't stop her because she loved her, but she didn't see this.  She only saw her need to make them love her.  She cried over them, but in the end decided it was their own fault, instead of accepting any blame.

A good example of if she had excepted blame, excepted responsibility would be to have smashed the damn mirror.

Again, she said that they would rather destroy themselves than accept her help.  Why, oh why couldn't she have just lived with them and been part of their family?  Why did she have to be right, no matter what?

Am I the only one that sees this?   The fact that it was a mirror that she was obsessing over itself is so obvious it's not funny!

[AgelessTimeless]

You know she does smash the mirror at the end if her clan dies. Everytime.

[hoorayforicecream]

AgelessTimeless wrote...

You know she does smash the mirror at the end if her clan dies. Everytime.

She smashes it even if her clan lives. She smashes it on the rivalry path at 100%.

[loranna238]

AgelessTimeless wrote...

Honestly to me the storyline with her seemed to be suggesting that in fact she could complete the mirror. Considering that with the tool she made more progress and just needed to find out the last thing to fix it, admittedly not the best choice to go consult the demon for that information but it makes sense to do so if you look at it the right way. It's not narcissism to believe that you can accomplish something when the previous events argue that you can.

While the storyline may have suggested that, she was warned NOT TO DO IT as it had KILLED SOMEONE.  She may have been able to complete the mirror, but should she have done it?  No, it is not narcissm to think that you can accomplish something.  It is however, if your purpose is ultimately your own self-glorification; which is what this was.

[AgelessTimeless]

Well I always end up killing her clan with her maxed at friendship from act 1 so... lol

[loranna238]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

AgelessTimeless wrote...

You know she does smash the mirror at the end if her clan dies. Everytime.

She smashes it even if her clan lives. She smashes it on the rivalry path at 100%.

This is good to know, because that to me seems the better path - the video I saw was someone encouraging her to continue with her folly, which seems to make her narcisstic.  So maybe, unlike real life in the game you can at least change her outcome by doing what is right.

Cause jeesh, the whole path to coddle her seemed very very wrong.

[AgelessTimeless]

loranna238 wrote...

AgelessTimeless wrote...

Honestly to me the storyline with her seemed to be suggesting that in fact she could complete the mirror. Considering that with the tool she made more progress and just needed to find out the last thing to fix it, admittedly not the best choice to go consult the demon for that information but it makes sense to do so if you look at it the right way. It's not narcissism to believe that you can accomplish something when the previous events argue that you can.

While the storyline may have suggested that, she was warned NOT TO DO IT as it had KILLED SOMEONE.  She may have been able to complete the mirror, but should she have done it?  No, it is not narcissm to think that you can accomplish something.  It is however, if your purpose is ultimately your own self-glorification; which is what this was.

Did you miss how repeatedly she says how it is the job of keepers and firsts to remember and restore elven history? Did you also miss the goal of her entire people as a whole is supposed to be restoring their history and identity? She is about the only one in the game who actually seems to hold to what the Dalish are portrayed as supposed to be.

[loranna238]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

AgelessTimeless wrote...

You know she does smash the mirror at the end if her clan dies. Everytime.

She smashes it even if her clan lives. She smashes it on the rivalry path at 100%.

This is good to know, because that to me seems the better path - the video I saw was someone encouraging her to continue with her folly, which seems to make her narcisstic.  So maybe, unlike real life in the game you can at least change her outcome by doing what is right.

Cause jeesh, the whole path to coddle her seemed very very wrong.

[phyreblade74]

jlb524 wrote...

TheAwesomologist wrote...

phyreblade74 wrote...
Ironically enough, since you posted this. I was struggling last night with wondering if I should take her friend or rival, just as I was preparing to head into the fade to save Feynrael. She was leaning to friend with me at that point, and I was tempted to follow along that path, just to see where it'd end up. And then she said, of Feynrael, "The Keeper will help this half-breed but not me?!" I was stunned, sitting there, thinking of how utterly selfish of her that was, how myopic a view it was. Rival it is, shrug.

I've romanced Merrill 3 times and always take her to the fade with me*, but I have yet to hear her utter that line. In fact when the little cut scene of Merethari walking around the alienage happens she never appears on screen. Sad. I was hoping for more interaction between Merrill and the Keeper.

She does indeed say that line before Marethari shows up.  it probably depends on your party composition if you hear it or not.

Like I said, I was leaning towards friends but couldn't have had but maybe 20 points in friends with Merril by that point.  I was in group with Anders, Aveline, and Merril, and that's when Merril spouted the line.  It was one of those things a companion can say that just catches you off-guard and makes you go, "Whoah, did you really say that?"

[loranna238]

Did you miss how repeatedly she says how it is the job of keepers and firsts to remember and restore elven history? Did you also miss the goal of her entire people as a whole is supposed to be restoring their history and identity? She is about the only one in the game who actually seems to hold to what the Dalish are portrayed as supposed to be.

Yes, but it is not what they wanted and she was doing it for the wrong reasons to me.  And she was doing it in a way that was dangerous, foolhardy, and incredibly risky.  Merrill is going to be the one to save everyone, no matter the cost.  Don't worry about it, my friend here will kill me if something bad happens, no matter that it already has!  Surely there could be some other way than this...obsession that as it progressed only got worse and worse.  Merrill wanted to save everyone, and if you follow that path she ended up killing everyone instead, and again, if you follow that path, it just creeps me out that she does not take responsibility for her part in this mess and says it was fault of the elves because they killed themselves rather then accept her help, when you ended up killing them because you loved her or were her friend.

Editado por loranna238, 25 abril 2011 - 08:56 .

[raziel1980]

AgelessTimeless wrote...

Well I always end up killing her clan with her maxed at friendship from act 1 so... lol

LMAO... I do too...and then I have her smash the mirror afterwords( since that bug is now fixed).

[jlb524]

loranna238 wrote...

But you see, what to me at first looked like a caring heart more turned into that she wanted to be a savior. 

And her people did not want to be saved.  By setting herself apart from them and saying, "I will save you!" instead of working with them, by rejecting everything bad that happened and realizing that she should stop, it became more about her than about them.  She wanted them to love her, to be their savior.  But her actions didn't seem to indicate that she really loved them in return.  She set herself apart from them; the more she pushed to do this humungous great thing, the more damage she caused because the keeper wouldn't stop her because she loved her, but she didn't see this.  She only saw her need to make them love her.  She cried over them, but in the end decided it was their own fault, instead of accepting any blame.

A good example of if she had excepted blame, excepted responsibility would be to have smashed the damn mirror.

Again, she said that they would rather destroy themselves than accept her help.  Why, oh why couldn't she have just lived with them and been part of their family?  Why did she have to be right, no matter what?

Am I the only one that sees this?   The fact that it was a mirror that she was obsessing over itself is so obvious it's not funny!

I do actually agree with a lot of these points.  I'm not even sure what would constitute 'saving' the Dalish.  I'm sure that the average Dalish person doesn't care much for ancient elven thingy ma bobbers.  It seems that it's mostly the Keepers that do as they feel it's their job to preserve any ancient history they can find.   The Dalish clans themselves can't really even agree on this, given the lack of a centralized Dalish nation.

I don't think any of this makes Merrill evil or completely crazy, just tragically flawed and understandibly so.  Ultimately the problem wasn't the blood magic or the mirror, but lack of communication or willingness to give a little on both sides.

phyreblade74 wrote...
Like I said, I was leaning towards
friends but couldn't have had but maybe 20 points in friends with Merril
by that point.  I was in group with Anders, Aveline, and Merril, and
that's when Merril spouted the line.  It was one of those things a
companion can say that just catches you off-guard and makes you go,
"Whoah, did you really say that?"

Yeah, that line speaks to her feelings and insecurities of not fitting in with her clan.

Editado por jlb524, 25 abril 2011 - 09:02 .

[AgelessTimeless]

I disagree. She went about it in a slightly foolhardy way yes, but that would not have happened had the keeper and the rest of her clan actually been true to their purpose. She got forced into the position she was in because she actually was dedicated to the cause of her people while the rest of them had drifted away from it.

I just thought of this but you know how she says the Varterral don't normally attack the dalish but that this one had started to attack the hunters the keeper sent? Perhaps it was because they as in her clan had begun to drift away from their purpose and stopped really being the dalish as they were meant to be.

[AgelessTimeless]

raziel1980 wrote...

AgelessTimeless wrote...

Well I always end up killing her clan with her maxed at friendship from act 1 so... lol

LMAO... I do too...and then I have her smash the mirror afterwords( since that bug is now fixed).

Can't help ending up with her maxed in friendship from the first act. She has great spells so i s a permanent member of my party and I happen to personally agree with her views on 99% of the stuff in that act. lol

[loranna238]

I will admit I didn't actually visit Merrill in her home after this - I was tired of her, and didn't want anything more to do with the character. The video didn't show her smashing the mirror. Though it didn't matter at that point, as telling someone that people killed themselves rather than accept your help, when you had a great deal to do with what happened is inherently wrong and she's like oh yeah that's true, they were wrong! Whee!

[TheAwesomologist]

jlb524 wrote...

TheAwesomologist wrote...

phyreblade74 wrote...
Ironically enough, since you posted this. I was struggling last night with wondering if I should take her friend or rival, just as I was preparing to head into the fade to save Feynrael. She was leaning to friend with me at that point, and I was tempted to follow along that path, just to see where it'd end up. And then she said, of Feynrael, "The Keeper will help this half-breed but not me?!" I was stunned, sitting there, thinking of how utterly selfish of her that was, how myopic a view it was. Rival it is, shrug.

I've romanced Merrill 3 times and always take her to the fade with me*, but I have yet to hear her utter that line. In fact when the little cut scene of Merethari walking around the alienage happens she never appears on screen. Sad. I was hoping for more interaction between Merrill and the Keeper.

She does indeed say that line before Marethari shows up.  it probably depends on your party composition if you hear it or not.

That must be it although Varric and Isabella don't say anything either. Maybe I'm just bugged. Either way it seems like something out of character for her to say.

[loranna238]

Regardless...I don't think I'm going to change my views on her, though I've listened to everything here. She creeped me out from the start of things, and next playthrough I'll reject her 100%, because agreeing with her is just...crazy to me. I don't suppose rejecting her completely will be an option, which I'd dearly like it to be, because she ties the Dalish (that's probably spelled wrong) in.

The whole thing is just...creepy...and wrong...and I don't think in real life you should agree with your friends 100% and coddle them when they are being incredibly stupid. Of course, this is a game, but I got so involved with it it just kept creeping me out with the wrongness of every step I took.

And still, the mirror thing just seems obvious to me.

[LobselVith8]

Are we using Night Terrors an indicator of character? The same quest that railroads all of the characters into committing attempted murder because only Hawke and Anders are immune to an offer made by a demon, no matter how much this contradicts what we see from characters in the Fade in Origins and Awakening?

[AgelessTimeless]

You have your opinion, I have mine. And if I did actually disagree with what she says In Game my character would scold her. But fact is that I agree with what she says in the game. So not really coddling on purpose, I simply play like it was life and when someone says things that I completely agree with well I agree with them.

[AgelessTimeless]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Are we using Night Terrors an indicator of character? The same quest that railroads all of the characters into committing attempted murder because only Hawke and Anders are immune to an offer made by a demon, no matter how much this contradicts what we see from characters in the Fade in Origins and Awakening?

Agreed, this quest is about the worst way to judge anyone. Hawke is immune because he is the PC and you get to choose. Anders is only immune because he's already possessed by a demon. I personally think Justice is still a demon.

[jlb524]

AgelessTimeless wrote...
I disagree. She went about it in a slightly foolhardy way yes, but that would not have happened had the keeper and the rest of her clan actually been true to their purpose. She got forced into the position she was in because she actually was dedicated to the cause of her people while the rest of them had drifted away from it.

I think both sides are to blame and I think the actual moral of the story has nothing to do with blood magic and demons, but with what happens when a relationship is allowed to fall apart due to stubbornness on both sides.  There's also no indication that Marethari's clan is absolutely against restoring ancient elven history/magic...we only know that she and they have a problem with this particular artifact.  I don't think their fear of the mirror is entirely justified and this is the way in which Marethari was stubborn.

AgelessTimeless wrote...
I just thought of this but you know how she says the Varterral don't normally attack the dalish but that this one had started to attack the hunters the keeper sent? Perhaps it was because they as in her clan had begun to drift away from their purpose and stopped really being the dalish as they were meant to be.

I'm not sure the two can be so easily linked.   Who determines what the true purpose of the Dalish is and upholds that?  How would the Varterral know that this wasn't happening (and would it even care?)

I always thought it had something to do with the demon and the Veil being very thin on Sundermount.

loranna238 wrote...

The whole thing is just...creepy...and wrong...and I don't think in real life you should agree with your friends 100% and coddle them when they are being incredibly stupid. Of  course, this is a game, but I got so involved with it it just kept creeping me out with the wrongness of every step I took.

And still, the mirror thing just seems obvious to me.

I think it comes down to how Hawke is roleplayed....not all think Merrill is being stupid, so it wouldn't be coddling in this case.

Editado por jlb524, 25 abril 2011 - 09:24 .

[AgelessTimeless]

jlb524 wrote...

AgelessTimeless wrote...
I disagree. She went about it in a slightly foolhardy way yes, but that would not have happened had the keeper and the rest of her clan actually been true to their purpose. She got forced into the position she was in because she actually was dedicated to the cause of her people while the rest of them had drifted away from it.

I think both sides are to blame and I think the actual moral of the story has nothing to do with blood magic and demons, but with what happens when a relationship is allowed to fall apart due to stubbornness on both sides.  There's also no indication that Marethari's clan is absolutely against restoring ancient elven history/magic...we only know that she and they have a problem with this particular artifact.  I don't think their fear of the mirror is entirely justified and this is the way in which Marethari was stubborn.

AgelessTimeless wrote...
I just thought of this but you know how she says the Varterral don't normally attack the dalish but that this one had started to attack the hunters the keeper sent? Perhaps it was because they as in her clan had begun to drift away from their purpose and stopped really being the dalish as they were meant to be.

I'm not sure the two can be so easily linked.   Who determines what the true purpose of the Dalish is and upholds that?  How would the Varterral know that this wasn't happening (and would it even care?)

I always thought it had something to do with the demon and the Veil being very thin on Sundermount.

Varterral were made with ancient elven magic long long before the time of the game setting. The fact that it is mentioned to normally leave the dalish alone makes sense as the dalish are the closest thing to the ancient elves left by all appearances. My thought is that perhaps that clan had drifted away enough that whatever means the Varterral used to identify them as Dalish and not random intruders it is supposed to kill no longer recognizes them.

[jlb524]

AgelessTimeless wrote...
Varterral were made with ancient elven magic long long before the time of the game setting. The fact that it is mentioned to normally leave the dalish alone makes sense as the dalish are the closest thing to the ancient elves left by all appearances. My thought is that perhaps that clan had drifted away enough that whatever means the Varterral used to identify them as Dalish and not random intruders it is supposed to kill no longer recognizes them.

Yes, but I doubt the ancient elves foresaw a future time where their empire would be crushed and all their magic lost...so when creating the Varterral, they wouldn't have added the ability for them to sense when a group of Dalish weren't doing their modern day 'elven' duty, which is to search for elven relics.

The only thing I can think of is perhaps it sensed tension and unhappiness in the clan over the Merrill issue and this caused it to act all funky.