407 respuestas en este tema

[AgelessTimeless]

jlb524 wrote...

AgelessTimeless wrote...
Varterral were made with ancient elven magic long long before the time of the game setting. The fact that it is mentioned to normally leave the dalish alone makes sense as the dalish are the closest thing to the ancient elves left by all appearances. My thought is that perhaps that clan had drifted away enough that whatever means the Varterral used to identify them as Dalish and not random intruders it is supposed to kill no longer recognizes them.

Yes, but I doubt the ancient elves foresaw a future time where their empire would be crushed and all their magic lost...so when creating the Varterral, they wouldn't have added the ability for them to sense when a group of Dalish weren't doing their modern day 'elven' duty, which is to search for elven relics.

The only thing I can think of is perhaps it sensed tension and unhappiness in the clan over the Merrill issue and this caused it to act all funky.

But the Ancient elves would have built in a way to recognize themselves. My point being the dalish are the closest thing left to the ancient elves which is why they normally don't get attacked. If they are getting attacked it is likely because they have changed in some way and the Varterral no longer sees them as the ancient elves.

[LobselVith8]

loranna238 wrote...

PurebredCorn wrote...

Merrill is getting friendship because you supported her. Which is what her friendship/rivalry path is about. Friendship is supporting her decision, it's not "stuff she likes." Rivalry is trying to protect her from the consequences of her own decisions, or otherwise doubting her choices, which is why she gets rivalry from that choice.

I see what you are saying, but other characters, like Varric, or Aveline, actually accept attempts to reason with them when they are about to cross over to the dark side.  Merrill seems to listen to no one except people who support her decisions and coddle her, period. 

You mean the people who support her decision to help elves across Thedas, who are living in poverty in the alienages where they have little to no rights or the clan members who are homeless and hunted by templars. Also, Merrill listens if rivalled, but I don't see the logic in Hawke trying to tell Merrill that she's wrong when she's Dalish and has more knowledge about Dalish lore than the human who is completely ignorant of it.

loranna238 wrote...

Meanwhile to me you form real frienships with Aveline, who has her own inner self-confidence, or Varric as well, and actually help them, and they are friends back with you.  To me, part of being a friend is to stop and tell your friends sometimes, hey it's not a good idea  playing around with a demon, and though they might not like it at first, like Aveline didn't like you just telling Donnic she had a crush on him, they thank you later.

Hawke can form a real friendship with Merrill. You seem to take issue with her perspective and her actions, which isn't her fault. Since blood magic isn't evil, I don't see why Hawke should lecture Merrill about it. Since Merill uses blood magic for several years without incident, she clearly knows what she's doing. Since the Eluvian offers the best chance for the Dalish to regain their forgotten culture, I don't see why Hawke should condemn her for it when there's currently no alternative presented to achieve this goal.

loranna238 wrote...

Merrill is givin multiple opportunities to turn from her path throughout the story, to avoid disaster, but she does not because she is determined to be the one who saves everyone and the one everyone loves.  Instead everyone turns out to hate her because her actions have no real love towards her tribe, cause horrible damage and are all about her becoming the one they admire, rather than revile.  

So Merrill should be blamed because Marethari poisoned the clan against her?

loranna238 wrote...

Your character is also given these opportunities.  You can always tell her no, just no.  To me this would have been the better choice.  But regardless, to me she is not a true friend.  She is all about her and her need to be the hero, her need to be told she is right and everyone else is wrong, even if they all died.  She just can't deal with anything else, and if the player chooses that, then she cannot be involved with them, the way she had to leave her tribe.

It *is* narcisstic.

You mean it is your *opinion* that we're talking about here.

Merrill fights alongside Hawke for several years whether he supports her efforts or not, she can help determine if a templar is possessed, she argues for helping the mages against those who would murder them, and she will be there for Hawke when Leandra dies. I don't seriously see how you can claim that Merrill isn't a true friend. I couldn't disagree with you more on this point.

[LadyJaneGrey]

Both Merrill and Marethari share responsibility for what happened to the Dalish Clan.

I'm with hoorayforicecream on this one. My Hawke never had enough information to feel comfortable pigeonholing Merrill and her motivations.

[Joy Divison]

The OP either does not know what narcissism is or only hears what the OP wants to hear when Merrill speaks.

Merrill is most certainly *NOT* trying to restore the eluvian to be loved by her clan.

She does not "want" people to die.

It is not narcissistic to be annoyed when a friend or acquaintance tells you, "You're wrong."

You end up killing the Dalish because the Dalish are xenophobic, rash, and are intent on shooting first and asking questions later.

[LobselVith8]

loranna238 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

I get the impression you're interpreting Rivalry as hostility. It's not intended as such.

It just seems to me that with Merrill rivalry is hostility.  Though - I haven't played the path where I rejected her.  All I know is that I was appalled with myself for encouraging her.   I really wanted to tell her to go take a hike from the getgo.

I didn't see anything wrong with encouraging Merrill towards the goal of helping her restore the secrets of her ancestors, especially when the purpose behind the Dalish is the restoration of the past so they can teach all elves about their lost history. Merrill was focused towards a goal that could help her people reclaim their heritage, and it's no different than when the Warden went to the Frostback Mountains for the fabeled Urn of Sacred Ashes, except Merrill isn't taking such a risk during a time of Blight.

I never saw a reason to rival Merrill because of this, and when she ultimately asks Hawke to help her when she ventures to Sundermount, I saw no reason to oppose her. Marethari endangered the clan by keeping them in Sundermount despite the fact that they should have left years ago, and the Keeper decided to make a deal with Audacity and keep everyone in the dark about it until Merrill dropped by with Hawke. The responsibility of what happened to the clan is entirely Marethari's.

[TheBlackBaron]

[quote]loranna238 wrote...

1) First, and foremost, Merrill is a blood mage. She chose this path, despite the discouragement of others. She may have chosen it out of love of her clan to start with, but to me the blood magic perverts you and if you look at it closely enough, and do whatever she wants even while she is weeping about the effects of it, people just...die. Which is of course what a blood mage would want.[/quote]

There is nothing inherently wrong or corrupting about blood magic. Is it dangerous? Yes, but then so are swords and guns.

I believe the overwhelming number of evil blood mages is because of the stigma built up around it via cultural memory of the excesses of Tevinter and centuries of Chantry...propoganda, for lack of a better word. "Good" mages, those that generally follow the rules or whatever you want to call it, don't touch it (see: Bethany). So for the most part only the ones that are already predisposed towards evil acts are willing to learn it. There are exceptions, of course, like Jowan.

Frankly, Merrill is about the closest thing you see in this game to an "ethical" blood mage, as she only ever uses her own blood to power it. Speculating that she's really after a big 'ole pile of bodies to service her vanity is entirely baseless. 

[quote]
2.) Any attempt to be an actual friend to Merrill in the game, and not simply tell her that it's ok, you didn't do anything wrong, meets with a rivalry increase. The first meeting I had with her in the alienage had me bewildered - my character told her what I would have told her, in a loving way, and then came away with a huge rivalry boost. When I chose the path that just screamed wrong, it had the opposite. I didn't actually play the romance, but this to me even seemed wrong if you were human, and leading her astray, the wrong way.[/quote]

Rivalry is not hostility. Don't make the mistake of confusing them with liking each other and hating each other. It's much more focused on world views than on personal relationships, as evidenced by how you can still romance somebody on either path. In fact, Isabela and Merrill's romances are probably the best ways of demonstrating that. 

[quote]
3.) Repeated examples of where what she has done is actually hurting her clan do not dissuade her from continuing with her plans, even though for instance when Pol runs from her she weeps about how he thought she was a monster and they all must do so. Instead, she decides to go see the demon, again.[/quote]

One of the running themes of Merrill's story arc is how people hurt themselves by making bad decisions. Marethari telling everybody Merrill is a monster, thus Pol runs straight towards the varterral = bad decision. 

[quote]
4.) While her mother/keeper's body is not yet cold, if instead of telling her, "girl, you knew the risks!" you say that the mother was stupid...(for sacrificing herself to save Merrill, which, when I 'm starting to think it probably was rather stupid, but also probably was necessary for the tribe as well - even though that's not why she did it) instead of reacting that she made a mistake and that this was all her fault and she would make amends, she instead states that she should have believed in her (Merrill), which..is just wrong.[/quote]

Um, yeah, keeping your clan in the shadow of a mountain crawling with corruption and housing an ancient demon, then letting yourself be possessed by said demon and then not telling anyone rates pretty highly on my scale of stupid decisions. 

Frankly, I don't see why she would be saying it's all her fault when it's, you know, not. Merrill made her decision to reconvene with the demon knowing full well what the consequences could be. Marethari likewise did the same when she let herself be possessed, and in fact planned on them. Any responsibility for her death is fully her own. 

I actually find it to be very fitting that it's a Pride Demon on top of that damned mountain. So much of the conflict of Merrill's arc comes from people being too prideful to accept that they may be wrong (this applies to both of them, of course). 

[quote]
5.) Yes, you could argue that she was willing to accept the danger in herself, however, it just seems to me that actions speak louder than words, and this was never put to the test. During what happened later, everything she is saying is designed to keep her involved with the clan, rather than actually taking responsibility. If you, instead take responsibility Merrill does say she is sorry still does not say she was wrong. She instead still beats the dead horse of "I would have had it be me!"

Looking at this however, if the demon had taken possession of her she could have possibly killed Hawke and the others, and then rampaged through her tribe like a teenager at an all you can eat pizzaria. Not everyone has Hawke's skills, and from what Anders said before an abomination is a scarey thing, and by this time you've built Merrill into some kind of super mage. This is not good. At the very least it's irresponsible and foolhardy.[/quote]

Okay, so if you're going to take that view point, how does it make Marethari's decision to willing let herself be possessed any different?

As for her not taking responsibility, I addressed that above. 

[quote]
6.) If you keep going along Merrill's merry path, you end up killing the very tribe she was trying to save. As Merrill is a blood mage, this seems a bit suspicious to me.[/quote]

In an act of self-defense, sure, you wind up killing the tribe. So unless you're saying that Merrill managed to pull off one hell of a Batman Gambit in hopes of getting a big pile of bodies, I'm not sure where you're going with this. 

[quote]
The whole thing withe Merril just seemed to be...wrong, from the very start. The only other character besides you, if you happen to choose to encourage pure rivalry with her, that seems to see this is Fenris. She just...felt wrong to me. I wanted to believe that she was good, her weeping was really effective, but really but to me if you pay attention to what she is actually doing it seems a lot like subterfuge or maybe she's narcissistic with an inferiority complex, which really...doesn't make any sense.[/quote]

One would think that Fenris - he of the broody mage hating - being the only who agrees with you might be a bit of a signal that perhaps you don't have it as figured out as you think, hmm? 
 
[quote]
So is she crazy? Is she manipulative and just trying to get more bodies to pile up because she's a blood mage? Is she just insecure? If she's so insecure why does she keep rejecting how the other elves respond to what she is doing, and continuing on her path? Why does she, in mourning her keeper, say really that it was her fault because she didn't believe in Merrill? It makes no sense...none of it does. I wanted to from the moment I saw her, leave her be and not have her in my party or anything but continued with it because of the plotline, and the off chance she might be some kind of crazed genious. But the more things went on, the more evident that this was bad and wrong, the more she did not turn back from what she was doing, and the more the choices I made seemed to be wrong.[/quote]

Seriously, it just baffles me how you've come to this conclusion that Merill set in motion a multi-year plan to kill her entire clan, for...what, exactly?

[quote]
When I did a first playthrough, after one half-hearted attempt to kill the elves, the wrongness of this just got to me. I went back and had to choose the option where I'd keep her from using her blood magic to harm anyone, which is exactly what she said she had wanted when you entered the cave...but this resulted in a huge rivalry increase, even though the elves survived, which is what *I* wanted, and did not sacrifice them to Merrill the way the Keeper sacrificed herself for her with nothing in return, not even Merrill learning her lesson.[/quote]

Funnily enough, what -you- want is not always what the NPCs want. Hence the existence of the Friendship/Rivalry system. Additionally, you gain rivalry because the dialogue option literally has you telling the clan it's all Merrill's fault and she really is a monster. Is it really a surprise that gains you rivalry? 

And again, "sacrificing them to Merrill", really? 

[quote]
To me, if you chose this path and encouraged her this was very very wrong. How much of a sacrifice is too much? Would the player's character be asked to kill themselves for her if possible to protect her pride and ego? Interesting also how it was a pride demon that confronted her, and not a desire demon or any other kind.[/quote]

Merrill never asks anybody but herself to make sacrifices for the sake of the eluvian project. Again, it's an interesting obersavation that Merrill's actions never directly bring harm to anybody - rather, people bring harm to themselves out of fear of what might happen as a result of Merrill's actions. 

[quote]
So at this point I am going towards Narcissistic, and with the mirror it seems rather obvious..

In addition, she always wanted to be the one to "save" her clan, the hero, although they would have just welcomed her if she just was one of them and she decided instead to stand apart, to be their savior, and did horrible things to do so, and in the end when they were all dead, she was like it was their fault, and not her own.

Yes, definitely narcissitic, with people sacrificing for her and supplying her confidence and justification, her proof that she is right and never wrong.
[/quote]

I again don't have a clue how you managed to come to this conclusion that Merrill really justs wants glory for herself. No offense, but it casts doubt on how much of the dialouge you really listened to with an open mind. 

Editado por TheBlackBaron, 26 abril 2011 - 12:24 .

[jlb524]

I think narcissism is a poor choice of words, or 'glory seeking'. I still think part of why she's doing what she's doing is to be accepted by her people, which is in no way narcissistic, but this would make her motivations not purely selfless. Though, I think purely selfless motivations are near impossible.

[Maugrim]

Batman Gambit you say...hmmm

I demand arts of Merrill as the goddamned Batman!

Sorry nothing else to contribute here.

[TEWR]

makenzieshepard wrote...

Batman Gambit you say...hmmm

I demand arts of Merrill as the goddamned Batman!

Sorry nothing else to contribute here.

seconded.

And really, there isn't anything to contribute. People just distort the facts of Merrill's story to make her seem like a stupid, evil, horrible person because that's what they want her to be.

[hoorayforicecream]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

makenzieshepard wrote...

Batman Gambit you say...hmmm

I demand arts of Merrill as the goddamned Batman!

Sorry nothing else to contribute here.

seconded.

And really, there isn't anything to contribute. People just distort the facts of Merrill's story to make her seem like a stupid, evil, horrible person because that's what they want her to be.

One could say the same for the opposite view... some folks paint her to be some sort of selfless, misunderstood genius-martyr for the same reasons. There really isn't sufficient evidence to prove one way or the other definitively anyhow; people fashion their interpretation based on the evidence that they see. 

[dragonflight288]

All I will say (although I like Merrill) is that every character, their motivations, their actions, are entirely up to the interpretation of the gamer. Some may feel Merrill is a prideful, greedy, selfish, narcissistic person. Others may feel she is a selfless, intelligent, cautious, friendly, and an overall good person. If you play the game with one mindset and convince yourself of it, therein it becomes very difficult to prove you wrong because you have already made up your mind. This human/elven/dwarven flaw is in all of us. We make up our minds and no matter how much evidence starts piling up, it becomes harder and harder to accept it if we've had a set frame of mind for long periods of time. It means we have to admit we were wrong. Are we evil people if we have problems with that.

What happened was Merrill and Merethari both felt they were right, acted exactly as they thought they should, both made mistakes, and neither listened to the other.

PS: I would love to see a picture of Merrill dressed as Batman.

Editado por dragonflight288, 26 abril 2011 - 01:18 .

[TheBlackBaron]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

One could say the same for the opposite view... some folks paint her to be some sort of selfless, misunderstood genius-martyr for the same reasons. There really isn't sufficient evidence to prove one way or the other definitively anyhow; people fashion their interpretation based on the evidence that they see. 

This is true. As jb524 said, I doubt she is doing this for entirely selfless reasons. Certainly, I think, she'd get just as much out of fixing the mirror as her clan or elves in general or whatever would, and at least part of it might be wanting to be accepted amongst the clan again. That is, however, a far cry from have a narcissus complex. 

Editado por TheBlackBaron, 26 abril 2011 - 01:19 .

[TEWR]

I'd say that there's more evidence to paint Merrill in the light of being smart, good, kind, and a wonderful person than there is to suggest she's the opposite though.

however, I see your point icecream.

[hoorayforicecream]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I'd say that there's more evidence to paint Merrill in the light of being smart, good, kind, and a wonderful person than there is to suggest she's the opposite though.

however, I see your point icecream.

Oh, I don't disagree. I love Merrill, she's great. I just don't think that she's the end-all genius-martyr who was woefully wronged by her entire clan through no fault of her own whatsoever. I just think she's just somebody who had the best of intentions, but something tragic happened as a result of bad communication, being too stubborn, and inopportune circumstances on BOTH sides. Much like the rest of the game.

[ejoslin]

AgelessTimeless wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Izzy: The most evil Merrill does is pick flowers from people's gardens.

Agreed, Personally she is the least evil character in the game.

She may not be evil, but she accepted a deal with a demon and is acting on its behalf.  Though she doesn't have bad intentions, she was tricked, and her obsession with the mirror is fueled by the demon.

She is weak.  The demon already has her manipulated, and is just waiting until she is finished so it can possess her.  This directly causes the death of her keeper, who did not accept the deal though she was given the same offer.

[LobselVith8]

[quote]loranna238 wrote...

[quote]primero holodon wrote...

1. unless you train Merrill as a blood mage during combat, she only uses blood magic on only to move the barrier and to purify the mirror, so she isn't using it out of a desire for power like all other blood mages you meet. also the only time people die around Merrill is when Pol runs, when Marethari gets possessed and when the clan attacks Hawke, all of these are a result of Marethari's actions against Merrill not of Merrill's blood magic. [/quote]

I disagree with this because you end up slaughtering her whole tribe, but do understand the point about the blood magic.  Which is one reason why I came to the other conclusion. [/quote]

The clan tries to murder Hawke and Merrill when they explain that Marethari turned into an abomination. Merrill isn't responsible for the clan trying to kill her and her companions in cold blood simply because they are upset about what Marethari became.

[quote]loranna238 wrote...

[quote]primero holodon wrote...

2. the same can be said for all companions. believe it or not, telling people off because they did something wrong doesn't endear you to that person[/quote]

No, it doesn't, but keeping them from going over to the darkside, like in Varric's case, seems to assist with their friendship, or doing things they don't like like telling Donnic that Aveline likes him helps her out.  I'm not saying that sometimes the characters don't like what you are telling them and reject you (like Fenris in letting his sister go when she betrayed him), is bad, only that its consistently bad with Merrill. It's a pattern. [/quote]

Varric never really goes over to the dark side. Giving him the piece from the Idol only improves Bianca, and it doesn't impact his personality from that point on. And I don't agree about Merrill. I think she's an interesting and flawed character, but I don't see her use of blood magic as evil when we already know that the Wardens use blood magic to create more Wardens and some mages utilize the art in combat against the darkspawn, and the Eluvian represents the best chance for Merrill to reclaim knowledge she believes is fundamental to restoring her people to what they once were.

[quote]loranna238 wrote...

[quote]primero holodon wrote...

3. again This is  result of Marethari's actions, The clan does harm to itself due to Marethari being overly cautious about Merrill.[/quote]

Merrill set herself apart from her clan in order to be the hero.  She was "going to save them all."  Instead of being friends with them and feeling that they didn't like what she was doing, instead of maybe listening to what they were saying, she instead chose to continue to save them against their will.  The Marethari killing herself is also seems like someone who is giving someone narcissitic supply.  Merrill will...be safe.  Merrill, not the tribe.  Merrill's needs above all others.  Sacrificing herself for Merrill. [/quote]

Merrill pursued a course of action that she believed would benefit her people, which is no different than when Hawke goes into the Deep Roads because he believes the wealth from the expedition will allow him to help his family. The difference between the two scenerios is that Merrill is putting her life in danger when she ultimately goes to see Audacity, because she feels the gambit of her becoming possessed and getting killed by Hawke is worth the price of possibly restoring the Eluvian and giving her people back a part of her elven history.

[quote]loranna238 wrote...

The clan was uneasy because, if I am remembering correclty, the things Merrill is doing are having a bad effect on everything.  Yet she continues to do them, continues to set herself apart and try to be their savior, by continuing with something that has already had negative effects, that is going against her tribe and that they do NOT want.[/quote]

No, the things Merrill is doing have isolated her, but they don't have a "bad effect on everything." Marethari has warned the clan that she could bring back the corruption, which directly leads to the death of Pol, but Merrill cleansed the shard of blood magic, and she remains Dalish (as opposed to a ghoul corrupted by the taint).

[quote]loranna238 wrote...

[quote]primero holodon wrote...

4.  Because Merrill knew what she was doing something dangerous, and she was trying to do things in a way that only put herself in danger, but since Marethari didn,t trust Merrill to do that she sacrificed herself in a way that, in Merrill's eyes, Might have been compleatley unnessecary. [/quote]

Merrill was playing with fire, and the Marethari let her continue to do it.  Why did she let her continue?  She could have really stopped her at some point.  And the things she was doing were not only putting herself in danger, but her whole tribe.  It was irresponsible, no matter what, even if she did bring Hawke and co with her.  I mean she could have stopped, but instead said let's go see the demon again.   I think that the Keeper only knew at this point was that she wasn't going to stop, no matter what, and that's when she chose to save her.   [/quote]

Nothing Merrill did put her clan in danger, because Merrill was only putting her life on the line. If she turned, then Hawke would have killed her the moment she lost to Audacity. It's not Merrill's fault that Marethari kept the clan at Sundermount, or that she accepted Audacity into her because her suspicions lead her to believe that Merrill would let Audacity loose through the restored Eluvian.

[quote]loranna238 wrote...

[quote]primero holodon wrote...

5. This is precisely why she wanted Hawke there, so that If she failed and became possessed then she would be killed by Hawke before anyone else was put in danger, hardly irresponsible.[/quote]

Thus putting Hawke and the whole party in danger.  It was unnessary.  She could have stopped.  She could have but she didn't.  It's not like what she was doing was working so far.  She was being foolhardy, stupid and vainglorius. [/quote]

If Hawke was going to kill her the moment she lost control, I don't see what danger he would be in. Hawke has killed abominations in the past, and even destroyed the "most powerful" Pride Demon in the Fade to rescue the soul of Feynriel. Merrill was being cautious in asking Hawke to kill her, and prepared for the worst. I don't see any indication that she was being foolhardy in asking her friend to end her life if she lost control, and I don't see what's stupid about taking a chance that could benefit the elves who have lost so much over the centuries.

[quote]loranna238 wrote...

[quote]primero holodon wrote...

6. The clan attacks Merrill out of anger, without bothering to see if it truely was Merrills fault or not. and even if Merrill hadn't been a blood mage in that situation the result would have been the same.[/quote]

Everything that lead up to this is MERRILL'S FAULT.  That's the point.  And yes, they did attack her out of anger.  She was trying to save people who did not want her to save them, not at the risk she was taking, and the trouble it was causing!!!  Did she listen? NO!  She only listened when people told her that she was doing the right thing! [/quote]

No, it's not Merrill's fault, and using all caps doesn't change that fact. Marethari is an adult, and so where the clan members who tried to murder Hawke and Merrill in cold blood because they didn't like what Marethari did. Merrill isn't responsible for the actions of other adults, only her own.

[quote]loranna238 wrote...

[quote]primero holodon wrote...

7. This is because Merrill believes that if caution is used it is possible to use a demon and come out on top, which is true seeing as how she's done that twice before without getting possesed.[/quote]

It was still too much of a risk, and demons are apparently sneaky, as evidenced by what the Maretheri told her, that it was going to use her to make the mirror and then come out into the world, kill her and then go on a murderous rampage.[/quote]

Marethari's suspicions aren't indisputable facts. There's absolutely no proof that Audacity would have used the Eluvian to escape, and we know from Morrigan that the Eluvians are doorways "beyond this world and beyond the Fade."

[AgelessTimeless]

I disagree with you but I am tired of arguing and considering that was already addressed before

I mean the post 2 above, not the one directly above.

Editado por AgelessTimeless, 26 abril 2011 - 02:08 .

[TEWR]

I can see her being partially to blame at times (maybe) if I really examined everything, but I blame Marethari moreso because everything Marethari did made no sense and wouldn't have helped anyone.

However, I'd like to quote myself with stuff on another Merrill bashing thread to show that she isn't the evil and stupid person she's made out to be (so future commenters can think twice about what they want to post):

I wrote at some point...

Let me give you a rehash of what went down:



Merrill takes shard of Eluvian with her to Sundermount. Merrill tries to use regular magic to cleanse it. It's not working and she doesn't have a ****load of lyrium on her. So the demon offers to teach her how to use blood magic because that can clean it. While risky, it was her only option to cleanse it of the taint. So she accepted and cleansed it.


Marethari doesn't like the Eluvian because it took two of their clan members. Technically, the Eluvian didn't do anything. It was the Darkspawn taint. Yet Marethari doesn't like it anyway and refuses to have anything to do with it or lore surrounding it. The shard is cleansed. Marethari still doesn't like it, and she ousts Merrill from the clan saying "she has chosen her path". So we take Merrill with us.


Merrill spends years rebuilding the Eluvian using only that one shard and whatever lore she could find. But she needs the Arulin'holm to help her finish. So we go to Sundermount to get it, and agree to slay the Varterral. Upon entering the cave, we find Pol who calls Merrill a monster, runs away, and gets himself killed. We later find out that Marethari spread baseless claims against Merrill that she would bring back the Taint. From a cleansed object. Marethari then urges Merrill to come back to the clan, who now fears her. And if the mirror was in fact still tainted, Merrill suddenly ceasing contact with it would not stop her from developing the Blight disease and spreading it. So.... yea faulty logic there Marethari. It's a lose-lose scenario for Merrill if she decided to return home.


Jump to her Act 3 quest. Now we're going to see a trapped spirit. A spirit that has been there for centuries now. And when we get there we find Marethari who has released said spirit and says that it would've used the Eluvian to escape and possess Merrill. But Morrigan has told us that the Eluvian links to a place beyond the mortal world and beyond the Fade. So Marethari was once again wrong. So we slay her


Now we go outside to a clan that hates Merrill and fears she is a diseased monster because of what Merrill is doing. They don't even bother to seek the truth out or even believe it. They just want to kill her.

Also, and this is just speculation, I wonder if maybe it was a spirit like Justice, but Marethari's bold and reckless move may have corrupted it into Audacity.[/list]

If the demon could've freed itself it would have. But it couldn't. It had been there for centuries, so it was trapped (and there was at least one working Eluvian he could've used if Marethari's comment about it using an Eluvian as a way of escape had any validity to it.)

No Marethari was the stupid one. Merrill was seeking advice from a spirit that was trapped for all eternity by ancient magic. There was no danger. Even so, Merrill still wanted to be careful by asking Hawke to accompany her. That doesn't seem like someone who is stupid.

Marethari repeatedly said she didn't want anything to do with the Eluvian, yet she acted like she knew more about it than Merrill did. Who studied the Eluvian? Merrill. Who rebuilt it using only a shard of the original and whatever lore she could find? Merrill.

Who said that the demon would use the Eluvian to escape its' prison? Marethari. Wait what? Marethari? The woman who knows nothing about the Eluvian is claiming something as fact? There's something wrong there, especially when Morrigan has told us the Eluvian links to a place beyond the mortal world and beyond the Fade.

Merrill isn't stupid. Naive yes, but only when it comes to humans as they are a people she has very rarely and very briefly encountered.

There is nothing inherently evil about blood magic. It is a tool like anything else (Hell I wonder if it could be used medicinally to manipulate the blood flow for someone who had an artery cut). People who abuse its' powers are evil, but that doesn't mean the magic itself is evil.

I would let her teach my child how to use magic safely. She even knows how to protect herself in the Fade. You can't believe anything other than yourself. The only reason she "betrays" you is because the Pride demon did what the demons in the Fade in Broken Circle did to your companions. She didn't betray you. She was forced to. She even says so afterwards.

Again, for future Merrill commenters so they can think about what they're posting.

[ejoslin]

But Merrill says she responded to the demon who called to her and her keeper in their sleep.  She also says the demon is the one who taught her blood magic she used to cleanse the shard and she thinks it worked (she is not sure). The keeper let herself get possessed so it wouldn't possess Merrill. The keeper is the one who said that the demon's plan was to use the mirror as a portal.  

Edit: Ahhh, ok, people know all this and just dismiss it.  Ok, never mind then.

Editado por ejoslin, 26 abril 2011 - 02:15 .

[TheBlackBaron]

ejoslin wrote...

She may not be evil, but she accepted a deal with a demon and is acting on its behalf.  Though she doesn't have bad intentions, she was tricked, and her obsession with the mirror is fueled by the demon.

She is weak.  The demon already has her manipulated, and is just waiting until she is finished so it can possess her.  This directly causes the death of her keeper, who did not accept the deal though she was given the same offer.

Going to have to disagree with you there, ejoslin. There is no indication that she is acting on the demon's behalf. Marethari believes that it's attempting to use the mirror to break into the real world, and that very well could be the case, but there's nothing in the game to show whether that's true or not. There's just not enough information to say defintively that she was being tricked or manipulated or whatever. 

And it become a moot point in the end when Marethari lets herself become willingly posessed. I actually rather like Marethari, but I can't emphasize enough just how dumb of a decision that was, not to mention making her fears about the mirror a self-fufilling prophecy (especially if Hawke and Co. prove to be unable to defeat her, which should be a concern since you're letting a pride demon possess a Dalish keeper, by definition rather powerful mages). 

Editado por TheBlackBaron, 26 abril 2011 - 02:20 .

[TEWR]

It did work. The shard is cleansed. You can't carry around a tainted piece of glass/live in a house with a tainted mirror and not contract the Blight disease for 7-10 years.

The keeper is acting as if she knew more about the mirror than Merrill. Who is the one who studied the mirror? Merrill. Who wanted nothing to do with it and barely knew anything about it (if anything at all), as DA:O told us? Marethari.

Editado por The Ethereal Writer Redux, 26 abril 2011 - 02:28 .

[AgelessTimeless]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

It did work. The shard is cleansed. You can't carry around a tainted piece of glass/live in a house with a tainted mirror and not contract the Blight disease for 7-10 years.

The keeper is acting as if she knew more about the mirror than Merrill. Who is the one who studied the mirror? Merrill. Who wanted nothing to do with it and barely knew anything about it, as DA:O told us? Marethari.

Exactly. Marethari acts like a complete imbecil in the game.

[hoorayforicecream]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

It did work. The shard is cleansed. You can't carry around a tainted piece of glass/live in a house with a tainted mirror and not contract the Blight disease for 7-10 years.

There's no real proof of that. Just because nobody steps on a land mine for 7-10 years doesn't mean that it's safe.

[AgelessTimeless]

Not the same thing. It's more like no one can go around for 7-10 years in a house contaminated with ebola or something of similar deadliness. If that mirror wasn't cleansed then Merrill what with her constant work on it, which necessitates being very close to it, especially given she would have open cuts at the time as she was using blood magic, there is no doubt she would have contracted it.

[LobselVith8]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

It did work. The shard is cleansed. You can't carry around a tainted piece of glass/live in a house with a tainted mirror and not contract the Blight disease for 7-10 years.

There's no real proof of that. Just because nobody steps on a land mine for 7-10 years doesn't mean that it's safe.

The taint on the shards of the Eluvian is addressed in Witch Hunt.