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[TEWR]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

It did work. The shard is cleansed. You can't carry around a tainted piece of glass/live in a house with a tainted mirror and not contract the Blight disease for 7-10 years.

There's no real proof of that. Just because nobody steps on a land mine for 7-10 years doesn't mean that it's safe.

How fast did Tamlen and Mahariel contract the Blight from the very same Eluvian? Instantaneously.

[congealeddgtllvr]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Oh, I don't disagree. I love Merrill, she's great. I just don't think that she's the end-all genius-martyr who was woefully wronged by her entire clan through no fault of her own whatsoever. I just think she's just somebody who had the best of intentions, but something tragic happened as a result of bad communication, being too stubborn, and inopportune circumstances on BOTH sides. Much like the rest of the game.

QFT
OP, just take her to max rivalry then spare her clan.  It's the best outcome (especially with romance).  

[TEWR]

what does QFT mean? That's probably the one acronym on here I don't know.

[hoorayforicecream]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

How fast did Tamlen and Mahariel contract the Blight from the very same Eluvian? Instantaneously.

One shard != One whole eluvian. Trying to equate a fragment to a whole is like saying that urea is as dangerous as gunpowder, since it's one of the components to make the stuff. You don't know what goes into the whole eluvian, but you also don't know what the active ingredients are. It might have been slower acting, it might have been mentally destabilizing, it might have been what made her so obsessive about it, or it might have been nothing. We don't know for sure.

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 26 avril 2011 - 02:39 .

[TEWR]

If you ingest poison slowly, in small doses, and unknowingly over the course of a decade, you will most certainly die within that time frame.

[congealeddgtllvr]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

what does QFT mean? That's probably the one acronym on here I don't know.

http://en.wikipedia....um_field_theory

[Salyu]

Man, people are really quick to get overly defensive about Merrill.. (reminds me of the Tali fanbase of Mass Effect*)

She's an embodiment of "the road to hell is paved with good intentions." My first playthrough, I outright rejected her Eluvian plans from the start. Zip, nada, don't care. She was mad at me, but everyone remained mostly unscathed and the Dalish continued to live unaffected by a cursed artifact. Now on my second playthrough, I decided to let her do her thing despite my solid "there is no way this is going to turn out good" feeling, and what happens? Lots of people needlessly dying and a very reclusive, sad Merrill.

Merrill is very childlike, characterized primarily by her kindness and her innocence to the outside world, but also by her complete inability to compromise. One could even say that she neglects her duty to her clan over the span of the game by leaving them, as she's been raised as Marethari's first since childhood. (At least, to my knowledge. In any case, I don't feel like Marethari could retrain another first very easily and it leaves the clan shorthanded.)

As for her friendship/rivalry path, (and this is purely based on my feelings about the game and not anything cannon) I don't necessarily feel like you're "supposed" to agree with her. She's "that friend", who generally means well, but always gets themselves in a mess of trouble, and you really have to watch out for them, even if they don't appreciate it at first. Merrill starts off with good intentions with the Eluvian, but it really starts consuming her as the years go by and it never brings her or her clan any happiness. I think blaming Marethari for anything is asinine and doing a diservice to Merrill's character (by not giving her responsibilty for her actions.)

Overall, I mostly agree with everything the OP said.


*Before anyone jumps down my throat, I like both Tali and Merrill plenty, thank you.

[hoorayforicecream]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

If you ingest poison slowly, in small doses, and unknowingly over the course of a decade, you will most certainly die within that time frame.

Or you'll build up an immunity to it (e.g. nightshade). Or you'll suffer debilitating long-term effects, but not necessarily die (e.g. lead poisoning). All poisons aren't the same. Ingesting poison can be a very effective method of healing. The difference between death and life often depends on the dosage.

The eluvian is a complicated ancient magical device. We don't know what goes into it. We don't know what sort of enchantments power it, or what materials were used for it, or even whether the shard contains the taint or something else that could be just as dangerous, or what. We don't know. I'm not pretending to be an expert on ancient magical mirror devices. Trying to pretend that I was would be foolish.

[LobselVith8]

loranna238 wrote...

phyreblade74 wrote...

Ironically enough, since you posted this. I was struggling last night with wondering if I should take her friend or rival, just as I was preparing to head into the fade to save Feynrael. She was leaning to friend with me at that point, and I was tempted to follow along that path, just to see where it'd end up. And then she said, of Feynrael, "The Keeper will help this half-breed but not me?!" I was stunned, sitting there, thinking of how utterly selfish of her that was, how myopic a view it was. Rival it is, shrug.

Yes, because she is so great and going to save everyone, and so pure.  I'm just saying, jeesh.  Everything smacked of wrong with her.

Merrill wants to help her people, who aren't exactly at their best right now. The elves in the Alienages are forced to endure a livelihood of ghettos where they have little rights and no representation in the administration, and the Dalish clans are slowly losing their magic and have been forced to wander Thedas without a homeland for centuries. I don't see what's wrong with a member of the Dalish wanting to improve the lives of her people. I honestly wish Hawke could have used both his wealth and status to improve the lives of the disenfranchised people in Darktown and the elves in the Alienage.

[TEWR]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

If you ingest poison slowly, in small doses, and unknowingly over the course of a decade, you will most certainly die within that time frame.

Or you'll build up an immunity to it (e.g. nightshade). Or you'll suffer debilitating long-term effects, but not necessarily die (e.g. lead poisoning). All poisons aren't the same. Ingesting poison can be a very effective method of healing. The difference between death and life often depends on the dosage.

The eluvian is a complicated ancient magical device. We don't know what goes into it. We don't know what sort of enchantments power it, or what materials were used for it, or even whether the shard contains the taint or something else that could be just as dangerous, or what. We don't know. I'm not pretending to be an expert on ancient magical mirror devices. Trying to pretend that I was would be foolish.

Merrill knows what to use to make it. She studied it.

In fact, I don't think Merrill had any doubts about the shard being cleansed.

Also, I wasn't pretending that you were an expert on the Eluvian.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 26 avril 2011 - 02:56 .

[LobselVith8]

Salyu wrote...

Man, people are really quick to get overly defensive about Merrill.. (reminds me of the Tali fanbase of Mass Effect*)

I take it you've never read the Loghain debates...

[hoorayforicecream]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Merrill knows what to use to make it. She studied it.

In fact, I don't think Merrill had any doubts about the shard being cleansed.

Do you believe drug users who say that they can quit any time? I'm sure that they have no doubts that they could either. "Because she believes it, it must be true" isn't a legitimate corroboration to me.

Typically, when a scientist makes a claim, they have to do due diligence. They publish a paper recording their findings, and then other scientists can independently do the research to corroborate or disprove those claims. Sometimes those claims get refuted. I'm still skeptical, but you're willing to take it as gospel. I guess that's where we differ.

Edit: Just to clarify, I'm not saying whether she did or didn't cleanse it. I'm just saying that there still exists plenty of room for reasonable doubt that she cleansed it, and as such we can't be sure. The thing might still be tainted. The magic she used might have caused the original enchantment to change. We don't know for sure, and thus we cannot assume it worked.

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 26 avril 2011 - 03:10 .

[AgelessTimeless]

I am willing to say that her opinion on the subject given as she is the expert on it is more valid than Marethari's conflicting opinion when the lore says Marethari knew next to nothing about it.

[TEWR]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Merrill knows what to use to make it. She studied it.

In fact, I don't think Merrill had any doubts about the shard being cleansed.

Do you believe drug users who say that they can quit any time? I'm sure that they have no doubts that they could either. "Because she believes it, it must be true" isn't a legitimate corroboration to me.

Typically, when a scientist makes a claim, they have to do due diligence. They publish a paper recording their findings, and then other scientists can independently do the research to corroborate or disprove those claims. Sometimes those claims get refuted. I'm still skeptical, but you're willing to take it as gospel. I guess that's where we differ.

Edit: Just to clarify, I'm not saying whether she did or didn't cleanse it. I'm just saying that there still exists plenty of room for reasonable doubt that she cleansed it, and as such we can't be sure. The thing might still be tainted. The magic she used might have caused the original enchantment to change. We don't know for sure, and thus we cannot assume it worked.

You can't equate drug users trying to kick their habit to Merrill and the Eluvian. That's apples and oranges.

If it was still tainted, it would've spread to the rest of the mirror that she had built, and would've amplified her contracting the taint. Since it didn't, this is why I believe it is truly cleansed. So yes this is where we differ, until WoG proves one of us wrong. Assuming that ever happens.

Also, I'm finding it really hard to not romance Merrill on any playthroughs where I vow not to. I wuvs her so much

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 26 avril 2011 - 03:18 .

[hoorayforicecream]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

You can't equate drug users trying to kick their habit to Merrill and the Eluvian. That's apples and oranges.

Just because people believe what they say is true doesn't make what they say true.

If it was still tainted, it would've spread to the rest of the mirror that she had built, and would've amplified her contracting the taint. Since it didn't, this is why I believe it is truly cleansed. So yes this is where we differ, until WoG proves one of us wrong. Assuming that ever happens.

There's no proof of this. There's only Merrill's word which is not verifiable.

[TEWR]

like I said. This is where we part ways. You can head off to Skeptic Village, I'm heading off to the Imperial City of Credo.


EDIT: Bah, ever since I lost my Latin dictionary I've had to use the internet to find latin words. I never know if they're right.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 26 avril 2011 - 04:47 .

[Joy Divison]

ejoslin wrote...

She may not be evil, but she accepted a deal with a demon and is acting on its behalf.  Though she doesn't have bad intentions, she was tricked, and her obsession with the mirror is fueled by the demon.

She is weak.  The demon already has her manipulated, and is just waiting until she is finished so it can possess her.  This directly causes the death of her keeper, who did not accept the deal though she was given the same offer.

Gonna have to disagree here and actually I'm surprised bc/ normally your posts are much more nuanced and thought out.

You are parrotting Marethari's perspective and treating it as if were reality.

And it is just wrong to say this "directly" caused the death of the Keeper.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 26 avril 2011 - 03:41 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

She wasn't evil or crazy, but she was proud. She believed she knew better than her Keeper. She wasn't blind to there being risks and dangers, she wasn't positive she could resist the demon (I believe she asks Hawke to kill her if she becomes possessed), but she thought there was a chance she could succeed despite Marethari's (admittedly vague) warnings to the contrary.

When you fight the demon Audacity at the end of her arc, it can attempt to fool her again by having 'Marethari' finally, *finally* admit: (paraphrased) "I was wrong, da'len. You are more powerful than I thought possible."

Edit: Note I am by no means saying that how Marethari handled things was the best way...

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 26 avril 2011 - 04:43 .

[ejoslin]

Joy Divison wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

She may not be evil, but she accepted a deal with a demon and is acting on its behalf.  Though she doesn't have bad intentions, she was tricked, and her obsession with the mirror is fueled by the demon.

She is weak.  The demon already has her manipulated, and is just waiting until she is finished so it can possess her.  This directly causes the death of her keeper, who did not accept the deal though she was given the same offer.

Gonna have to disagree here and actually I'm surprised bc/ normally your posts are much more nuanced and thought out.

You are parrotting Marethari's perspective and treating it as if were reality.

And it is just wrong to say this "directly" caused the death of the Keeper.

While I must admit I do not know Merrill's story as well as a few of the others, I'm not just parroting Marethari.  Flemeth warns Merrill, saying, "As for you, child, step carefully. No path is darker than when your eyes are shut."  Merrill herself talks about how she responded to the demon who called to her in her dream.

She wanted to restore the mirror before meeting the demon as she didn't meet it until she got to Sundermount (I believe), but in DAO the keeper wanted to learn more about it as well.  But once in Sundermount, a demon did call to her and Marethari and showed her visions of the past glory of past -- and told her it all could happen (this last part is not in the game, but it is part of her background, but it influences the way I see the story).

I don't think Merrill is evil, stupid, or anything.  I think she really feels that what she is doing is for the best.  I just think she was tricked by a demon, and succumbed to the temptations it promised her.

Her keeper died to protect her.  I'm not sure why the keeper would do this unless she believed that it was the only way to protect Merrill.  The keeper knew what she was dealing with.  And actually, if Hawke doesn't point out that Marethari has to die when the demon tries to fool them again, Merrill again believes it.  That the demon tries to kill her instead of possess her I'm not sure.  Perhaps Merrill thought she could still talk with the demon and get this elvhen utopia?

It's the way I see her story anyway, with what I've seen.  I realized that many here disagree with me, so I don't want to troll.

Edit: And I agree that Marethari did not handle things the right way.  Though Marethari knew it was a demon whom Merrill was dealing with, and knew Merrill knew it as well.  I'm not sure what else she could have done.  

Modifié par ejoslin, 26 avril 2011 - 04:58 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

FWIW I don't think the demon was attempting to 'stab to kill' in that scene, but draw power from Merrill's blood--perhaps enough power to win the fight. I could be wrong and it might just be Plot Armour, but the demon could still be intending to possess Merrill. Maybe she has more promise or raw power than Marethari, who knows?

[ejoslin]

It could be, though she is knocked unconscious and receives an injury -- perhaps Hawke is stronger than the demon imagined instead. There are a few things about the whole story that don't make much sense to me. I probably should play through again and try to glean some more.

[Masako52]

Merrill? Evil, bratty and selfish?

MERRILL?!

Okay, I'm all for looking into her actions and assessing whether or not her blood magic was justified and if she ought to bear the blame for the plot's events.

But let's not forget who we're talking about, for goodness' sake! We travel with Merrill for nearly a decade. We know her personality and how she interacts with others. If you try to sell out Fenris, who is the cruelest to her out of anyone, she protests in horror. She's the only one willing to forgive Anders and spare his life at the end, even though Anders never had a kind word for her, either.

I don't see why her morality is even worth discussing. Merrill is kind and well-meaning, but also dense and obsessed with the eluvian. She values history and knowledge, even the terrible stuff, and wants to reclaim the wisdom of the glorious days of elven old. People die because of her. But she is a nice girl, whether or not you want to smack her for being ridiculously stupid half (all?) the time. It's interesting to take a character who would otherwise be a bit boring, with the stereotypical "ditz" personality, and make her a blood mage. It makes Merrill a worthwhile character because her flaws aren't so much her natural personality, but her choices and obsessions.

[Emperor Iaius I]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

like I said. This is where we part ways. You can head off to Skeptic Village, I'm heading off to the Imperial City of Credo.


EDIT: Bah, ever since I lost my Latin dictionary I've had to use the internet to find latin words. I never know if they're right.

I would use a noun in that context. Cities were typically feminine declensions, so I would go with Fides or Credulitas. You may also consider Populus Creduli. For an amusing allusion to modern day, you may also try Urbs Spei.

[Joy Divison]

ejoslin wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

She may not be evil, but she accepted a deal with a demon and is acting on its behalf.  Though she doesn't have bad intentions, she was tricked, and her obsession with the mirror is fueled by the demon.

She is weak.  The demon already has her manipulated, and is just waiting until she is finished so it can possess her.  This directly causes the death of her keeper, who did not accept the deal though she was given the same offer.

Gonna have to disagree here and actually I'm surprised bc/ normally your posts are much more nuanced and thought out.

You are parrotting Marethari's perspective and treating it as if were reality.

And it is just wrong to say this "directly" caused the death of the Keeper.

While I must admit I do not know Merrill's story as well as a few of the others, I'm not just parroting Marethari.  Flemeth warns Merrill, saying, "As for you, child, step carefully. No path is darker than when your eyes are shut."  Merrill herself talks about how she responded to the demon who called to her in her dream.

She wanted to restore the mirror before meeting the demon as she didn't meet it until she got to Sundermount (I believe), but in DAO the keeper wanted to learn more about it as well.  But once in Sundermount, a demon did call to her and Marethari and showed her visions of the past glory of past -- and told her it all could happen (this last part is not in the game, but it is part of her background, but it influences the way I see the story).

I don't think Merrill is evil, stupid, or anything.  I think she really feels that what she is doing is for the best.  I just think she was tricked by a demon, and succumbed to the temptations it promised her.

Her keeper died to protect her.  I'm not sure why the keeper would do this unless she believed that it was the only way to protect Merrill.  The keeper knew what she was dealing with.  And actually, if Hawke doesn't point out that Marethari has to die when the demon tries to fool them again, Merrill again believes it.  That the demon tries to kill her instead of possess her I'm not sure.  Perhaps Merrill thought she could still talk with the demon and get this elvhen utopia?

It's the way I see her story anyway, with what I've seen.  I realized that many here disagree with me, so I don't want to troll.

Edit: And I agree that Marethari did not handle things the right way.  Though Marethari knew it was a demon whom Merrill was dealing with, and knew Merrill knew it as well.  I'm not sure what else she could have done.  

In your OP, you seemed to treat how your prediction of what would have happened to Merrill as canon when there is nothing in the game to indicate this is what would have unfolded.  We don't know if she is being manipulated or is too weak to avoid demonic possession.  It is a valid perspective to believe this would have been the case as Marethari thinks, but as this is just a guess and has not happened to Merrill, condemning her for it while ignoring conspicous gameplay evidence she is actually at times astute in her dealings with the fade and thus stands a better chance in a battle of wills w/ a demon than say Anders is a valid objection.  I'm just looking out for my favorite blood mage much like you might when you think someone is selling Zevran short 

I do not know why Marethari's adopted the "solution" that she did, but I do know it was not befitting of someone with her wisdom and responsiblity to the ENTIRE clan (not just Merrill).  If I had to guess, it was mostly a maternal instict - and I stress instict as her actions were done with no thought given to the consequences - as she and Merrill had a virtual mother-daughter relationship.  Marethari's options to prevent Merrill, who would not be disuaded from contacting the demon, were limited and unpleasant so there probably was no ideal solution.  Short of hiring some thugs to smash the mirror and removing the motivation for Merrill to contact the demon, it seems moving the clan off Sundermount, informing them she must undertake a potentially lethal task, and assisting Hawke to ensure damage control is about all she can do.  As Anders says, it was an incredibly noble thing to do, but it doesn't correct the faults in Marerthari's judgment.  Merrill took precautions to ensure the only one who would be killed going up that mountain would be her if things went wrong.  Marethari should have done the same.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 26 avril 2011 - 06:02 .